A Political Answer For RATM

[Scott M]

i have noticed in many threads there is a debate on what political standings RATM took.

Needless to say their ideologies are left, and to be more specific they are Marxists. This is not conclusive, but if you hop over to their site and go to the "reading list" link, you will find books which inspired their music...

a lot of them have Masses of Marxist doctrine throughout them.

scott

[bunk]

they still drive massive fuel gobbling hummers

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

They are not Marxists.
Just they because they think we should read Marxist literature doesn't mean they're Marxists.
I have an Ayn Rand book, does that mean I'm a fucking ass-hole **** son of a *****? No.

[BOZG]

They also list some liberal literature. What's your point?

[Sabocat]

**********************
All liberals should be shot
**********************

:lol:

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 04:21 PM
they still drive massive fuel gobbling hummers
we're all capitalists if we live in capitalist nations. Whether they drive Hummers or not, it doesnt matter...we all support various companies, whether's its our Internet Service Provider, telephone company, or buying a new hummer. It doesnt defeat the same base notion of being a consumer whore.

Who cares if they drive hummers...if they have the money, then they can. It's no different than any of us living in a capitalist nation.

Sure they made money by talking against the system...but they did it in a way where it made money for their label more than it did for themselves. Again, we're all part of the system...it's about finding our niche within the system...and being content with it.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

it's about finding our niche within the system...and being content with it.

No it's not.
It's about overthrowing the system.
What you just said is incredibly reactionary!
Be content with your place in capitalism? WTF!?
You mean under the oppression of the capitalist ruling class? Be content with slavery?

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 11:21 AM
they still drive massive fuel gobbling hummers
actually Tom drives a sports car :lol:

[celtopunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 04:29 PM
I have an Ayn Rand book, does that mean I'm a fucking ass-hole **** son of a *****? No.
The setup and... no that shot would be too easy. Have a nice day Victor.

[Urban Rubble]

we're all capitalists if we live in capitalist nations. Whether they drive Hummers or not, it doesnt matter...we all support various companies, whether's its our Internet Service Provider, telephone company, or buying a new hummer. It doesnt defeat the same base notion of being a consumer whore.

I agree with you in the sense that us leftists boycotting major corporations isn't the way to bring them down. Shit, I love Starbucks coffee as if it was heroin. However, there is quite a difference in my cup of starbucks and a huge hummer. Aside from being your run of the mill evil corporation, Hummers are actually alot worse. See, the basis of America's Imperialism for the last century of so has been oil. By driving a car like a Hummer, or an Expedition or whatever, you are actively supporting that. We simply don't need to drive cars that use that much oil, expecially when claiming to be a fucking Marxist !

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 06:14 PM
The setup and... no that shot would be too easy. Have a nice day Victor.
:lol:
I don't understand this hostility you have agaisnt me just because I don't like the music you like.... :rolleyes:

[Urban Rubble]

Because only fascists listen to soley Classic Rock.

Or maybe he doesn't like your tie. Because I've got to admit, that tie makes you look like a real dick.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

But I don't only listen to classic rock. About 50% of my music collection is classic rock. The rest is blues, jazz, hip-hop, soul, R & B, Brazilian jazz, popular Brazilian Music, reggae, prog rock, art rock, folk, latin music, classical, and even a bit of punk.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 09:24 PM

it's about finding our niche within the system...and being content with it.

No it's not.
It's about overthrowing the system.
What you just said is incredibly reactionary!
Be content with your place in capitalism? WTF!?
You mean under the oppression of the capitalist ruling class? Be content with slavery?
you can't sit at your computer and say you're not content with what you have...

Cuz you are...you are using a computer that was probably made in a sweatshop, with horrible working conditions. Are you gonna throw your computer against a wall? It is at your discretion, but seeing how you use the internet, you're not gonna.

Why? Because you're content with it. It serves a purpose, and you use it for a means-to-end basis. You may not wanna admit to it, but its the truth.

If you're living in a capitalist state, you are essentially a capitalist. Sure, we can think about revolution, and how much the system sucks...but we're still part of it, and you wont eliminate it by whining about how much it sucks.

Just face it, you like everyone else in a capitalist state, are a consumer whore!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

We are not capitalists. We are victims.

We may be content with some material itemsm but if you say that your life under capitalism is a satisfactory one, either you are a bourgeois oppressor, or you're a fuckin tool.

[Urban Rubble]

Only fascists listen to, blues, jazz, hip-hop, soul, R & B, Brazilian jazz, popular Brazilian Music, reggae, prog rock, art rock, folk, latin music, classical, and even a bit of punk.


you can't sit at your computer and say you're not content with what you have...

I'm fairly content with what I have, you're right. However, that does NOT mean I am content with the Capitalist system. I will be content when EVERYONE has a computer.


If you're living in a capitalist state, you are essentially a capitalist. Sure, we can think about revolution, and how much the system sucks...but we're still part of it, and you wont eliminate it by whining about how much it sucks.

Some of us do more than whine and "think" about revolution. Some of us are actually active in politics.


Just face it, you like everyone else in a capitalist state, are a consumer whore!

We're obviously all consumers to a certain degree. Again, boycotting corporations is no way to bring down Capitalism. Just because we live in a Capitalist society does not mean we must be mindless consumers.

[MexicaMetzli]

I dunno where to start... ok, Zack nor Tom Drive Hummers! those are rumors. What difference does it make if they're Marxists or not? I don't see any of you practicing your Marxism. I've been reading a lot throughout this site. It's good, very informative as well. I think that a lot pf people here are jus talk, talk talk and no action. It doesn't sound like much is being done here, I mean, it's a fucking site, not much gets done on the internet. Rage chose to sign with a Major label because they would benefit from it the best way that they could. They were able to express whatever they wanted to, no one at Epic censored them. They have contributed so much more to different causes and different movements around the world, I'm sure they've done a whole lot more than most of you in here. They don't have to be Marxist to make the most difference. I mean look at where Marxism/Communism/Socialism is at today! It has not been a living thing. Not one thing has proven that it has existed. I hope that it will, but it's not happening right now. There's a lot of talk on here about the so-called consumption that Rage has bought into, but honestly, you can't live in the US and NOT be a consumer! Until people decide to be more realistic on the real world we live in today can we actually strive for change. Yeah yeah this sounds Reactionary and such, but what good is it to waste energy in thinking that we're going to change the world all at once? It has to start at a local level, or at a level where one is able to best get their message across. RATM did that, it obviously opened millions of people's minds. It clearly sparked up a few discussions on this board. What I'm saying is that they have been able to do so much more than any other band out there. They're not just a band, they sparked up an old flame that was dying out in the peoples movement. This has certainly been most effective for the young groups. So what if they're NOT Marxists (if they're not by your standards) Who knows, they are probably MORE Marxist than anyone on this site will EVER dream to be! Cause honestly, I doubt anyone here lives a Marxist way of life. Anyways, bash them all you want, but they contributed so much in various struggles (whether it be monetarily, or recognition) where would so much of our Youth be today had it NOT been for RATM. RATM is not about the MUSIC, It's about CHANGE! It lit up a once highly flamed Movement. No one here seems to be giving them credit, where credit is due.

Anyways, I'm OUT!

[bunk]

In the old thread about this it has pictures of them driving their overly expensive show-off cars.

[Urban Rubble]

I dunno where to start... ok, Zack nor Tom Drive Hummers! those are rumors

The picture of Zack driving a Hummer begs to differ.


What difference does it make if they're Marxists or not?

Because they claim to be.


I don't see any of you practicing your Marxism

That is because you can't see through a computer screen. That and the fact that you don't know any of us.


It's good, very informative as well. I think that a lot pf people here are jus talk, talk talk and no action. It doesn't sound like much is being done here, I mean, it's a fucking site, not much gets done on the internet.

If you don't think the internet is useful for "getting things done", you're retarted.


They were able to express whatever they wanted to, no one at Epic censored them.

Irrelevant. The fact is, they're actively making profits for them


There's a lot of talk on here about the so-called consumption that Rage has bought into, but honestly, you can't live in the US and NOT be a consumer

As I said, my cup of Starbucks coffee is a bit different than his Hummer. If I go without my cup of coffee, I save 2 bucks. He goes without his Hummer and he saves enough cash to feed a small African village for months.


They're not just a band, they sparked up an old flame that was dying out in the peoples movement

No they didn't. They got a bunch of kids to wonder who Che Guevara is. That's admirable, but it's not that big of a deal. 90% of the kids who found out who Che was through Rage will never become active in politics.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

The overwhelming feeling here is that most wanna point the finger at ZDLR and say 'traitor!' or, 'sellout!' Are your lives any better? Honestly...

I read alotta politics books, and as most here, have studied political figures in the past. But I'm the first to admit that I'm a capitalist. Yes, I buy clothes, and yes I realize they were made in sweatshops. But, what am I gonna do as a consumer? Protesting in front of the Gap isn't gonna change the system.

It does show that I care, and yes, there is some merit in that.

But you have to understand there's a bigger issue here, I claim to be a marxist yes, because I heavily believe there are class conflicts within society. What am I gonna though, throw a fuss and say the system sucks every time I buy something for myself? LOL! You wish pal.

It's so easy for anyone to sit at their computer and point the finger at ZDLR, or whoever and say 'you sold out!' Did you ever buy a RATM album (or any album for that matter)? If you did, you'd be supporting record labels, and the elitest class of bourgeoisie.

I'm not trying to sound like some right-wing bureaucrat, but capitalism wont fall when ppl within society are blaming others of being true. Capitalism will fall when we, as a united group, make our voices heard. We won't get there if we make divisions among ourselves.

[Palmares]

I like hummers. :)

But seriously, he drives a hummer. Big fucking deal.

The issue really isn't "He isn't a Marxist, etc because he has a hummer, or lives in a mansion (which I guess is kinda dodge)."

The real issue is what he tries to do politically.

Does Zack write revolutionary (at least lyrically) music? Does he try to agitate resistance? Does he attend progressive rallies?

Oh, wow&#33; RATM has liberal books on it&#39;s reading list. The sky is falling&#33; <_<

For fucks sake&#33; It is just as important to read right-wing literature as is to read left-wing. We have to be able to understand these people&#33;

When it comes down to it: who cares?

He is political and tries to make a difference.

That is all I care about.

[Urban Rubble]

But seriously, he drives a hummer. Big fucking deal.

See, but I think it is a big deal.

The reasons you are all giving seems to be that Zach is singing and fighting for change and through that alot of kids are becoming interested in leftism. Right ? That&#39;s good, I respect him for that.

The thing is, when these kids see him preaching this shit but also see his mansions and Hummers (which, again, the money for could feed SO many people, and they&#39;re contributing quite alot to the destruction of our environment and helping cause wars) they think "Oh, so I can be a leftist and scream about fighting "the man", but I can still be rich and drive Hummers". So what do you get ? A bunch of half assed "leftists" who TALK alot about change and love to "rebel", but will never be active politically (aside from, again, talking alot of shit).

[fernando]

Isnt that what a lot of leftists do/want..I mean in dutch we call that "salon socialisten" (gossiping ladies at the hairdresser who try to be socialists). Most of them just sit and talk with each other, talking about revolution and about how "untrue" and "reactionairy" the people are who dont agree with them.

[BOZG]

Oh, wow&#33; RATM has liberal books on it&#39;s reading list. The sky is falling&#33;

I wasn&#39;t attacking them like that. I meant that just because they have Marxist books on their reading list, doesn&#39;t make them Marxist.

[NovelGentry]

General responses to the thread

On the issue of Starbucks Coffee being different than a Hummer:

They are different in the sense that one is something you consume the other is something you utilize for various other things... one is coffee, the other is a car. But in the end they are both over priced and shitty versions of better things that are a lot cheaper ;)

On the issue of Hummers in general having something to do with being Marxist:

A lot of this I think is derived from the environmentalism which has been attributed to the left. I&#39;m not sure where this came from or why it&#39;s that big of a deal. While I admit environmental issues are a problem and will be moreso in the future, this automatic assertion that they&#39;re related to communism is completely out of control.

On the construction of computers in sweatshop:

While I&#39;m certain this isn&#39;t true in all cases, most cases are as follows. Computers are made up of various components which are basically snap together, these components are far more technical and advanced and are generally machine built, in fact, the most modern technology actually "prints" circuit boards. Thus on a component level it is almost 100% automated. The snapping of these components together to my knowledge has never really infultrated the sweatshop market. In fact, to my knowlege most of this construction was traditionally done in American workplaces via assembly line like production, however I&#39;d imagine a lot of it is now moving to India, but hardly in sweatshop conditions. And btw, I built my own computer and I can tell you for certain that that one was made in a sweatshop... not only was I in a cramped and dimly lit space (the floor of my dark room wedged between my bed and my computer desk), but I was sweating like hell, and in the end I was paid absolutely nothing for my labour&#33;

On the issue of a picture of anyone driving a hummer:

I could get a picture of me driving a BMW M3... doesn&#39;t mean I own it.

On the issue of partaking in capitalist society while being Marxist:

I don&#39;t feel there&#39;s any reason that we shouldn&#39;t do what we want with the excess money we obtain from being exploited. This, however, is not to say that there aren&#39;t levels of exploitation, there are certainly people who are exploited to much grimmer extents than the majority of us, and we should always be keeping these people in mind and providing help when we can, through monetary or other forms.

On the issue of Humme&#39;s causing wars:

Capitalism in general causes war, it is the only way for it&#39;s growth to occur at a certain level. Marx points this out quite clearly in the first chapter of the Manifesto. The capitalists have to conquer new markets in order to further the development of conditions of bourgeois property. This is not a characterisic only to the company that produces Hummer.

[Urban Rubble]

They are different in the sense that one is something you consume the other is something you utilize for various other things... one is coffee, the other is a car. But in the end they are both over priced and shitty versions of better things that are a lot cheaper

No, they are different in the sense that one directly contributes to the destruction of our environment and our war efforts and one does not (at least, not as strongly).


A lot of this I think is derived from the environmentalism which has been attributed to the left. I&#39;m not sure where this came from or why it&#39;s that big of a deal. While I admit environmental issues are a problem and will be moreso in the future, this automatic assertion that they&#39;re related to communism is completely out of control.

I don&#39;t think, nor have I implied that environmentalism is derived from the left. I simply think that being concerned with the environment is a characterisitc of a sane, rational person. I also think that given all the talk of advancing the human race within Marxism that Marxists should be concerned with the problems that face us as humans. Environmentalism and wars for oil seem to be fairly important at the moment.


I could get a picture of me driving a BMW M3... doesn&#39;t mean I own it.

Right. But logically, we would assume you did own it. Just like we can logically assume that Zach owned that Hummer (and I actually happen to know for a fact that he does own one).


I don&#39;t feel there&#39;s any reason that we shouldn&#39;t do what we want with the excess money we obtain from being exploited. This, however, is not to say that there aren&#39;t levels of exploitation, there are certainly people who are exploited to much grimmer extents than the majority of us, and we should always be keeping these people in mind and providing help when we can, through monetary or other forms.

Like I said, I don&#39;t see any reason why a Marxist can&#39;t live comfortably within a Captialist society. Luxuries are fine with me. But I think that when you are dealing with these kinds of amazing amounts of cash and calling yourself a Marxist that you would use the cash for something far more important than a Hummer.


Capitalism in general causes war, it is the only way for it&#39;s growth to occur at a certain level. Marx points this out quite clearly in the first chapter of the Manifesto. The capitalists have to conquer new markets in order to further the development of conditions of bourgeois property. This is not a characterisic only to the company that produces Hummer.

I never said that it was a characteristic that only the Hummer corpration embodies. But I do think they are alot more guilty than many other companies.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

I think alotta ppl here wanna be so extreme about this. Do any of you here live and breathe your own philosophies? Although I may try to, I become a victim of my society - I buy things that I like, and I spend money where I see it will be put to good use.

It doesn&#39;t make me a traitor or a sellout. It makes me human dammit. Even though there is class conflict, I still have to pay bills, buy clothes and help pay for the roof over my head. Am I a sudden spawn of satan?

So WHAT if the dude has a hummer? It guzzles gas and costs alot to build...but so does alotta things. It doesnt matter...just spend your money while you can, and envision a collective overthrow of capitalism. It won&#39;t happen like I said when ppl are pointing the finger.

You guys need to relax about the issue, I&#39;m sure all of you would ask ZDLR for his autograph if you met him.

[RedAnarchist]

You cannot be a cat in a dog&#39;s kennel. You have to be a dog until the dog is driven away. Then you can be a cat.

[Palmares]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 12:54 AM

Oh, wow&#33; RATM has liberal books on it&#39;s reading list. The sky is falling&#33;

I wasn&#39;t attacking them like that. I meant that just because they have Marxist books on their reading list, doesn&#39;t make them Marxist.
Sorry. Fair point. Just got a little pissed off about the anti-RATM stuff.

I suppose a question that my come up is simply: as a celebrity, where could Zack live? I&#39;m not condoning his mansion, but one&#39;s live is very different when in the limelight.

I still like Hummers. :)

This all reminds me of when I saw Flavour Flav wearing an Ecko shirt... <_<

[BOZG]

I like hummers too. Good for running people over.

[bunk]

fucking idiot

[Urban Rubble]

You guys need to relax about the issue, I&#39;m sure all of you would ask ZDLR for his autograph if you met him.

No you douche, some of us have dignity.

Anyone that would ask for a celebrity&#39;s autograph (at least, past the age of 12 or so) is a mindless moron.

[DaCuBaN]

I still like Hummers.

I don&#39;t, and it appears I&#39;m by no means alone:

http://www.andkon.com/stuf/hummer/index.html and the accompanying thread http://www.andkon.com/stuf/elcova/01.html


It has come to my attention that people who own Hummers are the worst mankind has to offer. Perhaps they are even worse than people who graduated from Harvard or Yale. They are the kind of people who will fornicate with Adolf Hitler when (never if) they go to hell to burn eternally for their crimes against humanity. Simply put, they are greedy bastards. Psst&#33; Come closer and listen up&#33; Here&#39;s a great plan: Let me spend over &#036;100,000 on a car, I am such a fucking genius. Nevermind the fact that over a billion people are abysmally starving. Nevermind that donating &#036;70,000 and settling for ONLY a &#036;30,000 car (commonly called "cars most people don&#39;t seem to mind having") would save literally thousands of people from imminent death. Nevermind that &#036;70,000 could buy you almost 100 tons of yummy animal crackers. Oh no, let the poor bastards starve, I mean they are poor bastards after all. I mean DUUUH&#33; They wouldn&#39;t have those big pot bellies if they weren&#39;t full.

The Hummer owners&#39; arrogance comes across in the reason the jackasses dare to buy the car. The purpose of a car is to get from point A to point B in as less time as possible, unless you are greedy bastard in which case the purpose of a car is to get from point A to point B in as much glitz as possible. Hummer owners get a sick, sexual thrill out of people looking at their cars. Reminds me of an exhibitionist whore with too much make up on and too many STD&#39;s quite frankly.

One thing besides Hummer owners that piss me off is advertisement for the Hummer. They ads are full of nice scenes in which the adventurous Hummer is going on savannahs, mountains, valleys, and various other bullshit scenary. Perhaps they need to add one more adventure that is actually realistic: paved roads going, 35 miles per hour. Anybody who buys a Hummer hasn&#39;t the slightest intention of going offroad (because he is a pansy fearing scratches and dents) but buys a Hummer to feel the awesome kick of adrediline. And why do they get such a kick from owning a car that is portrayed as so risque and fun? People who own Hummers have to assert their dominance one way or another. Well actually, they have problems. And when I say problems I mean that they all have a small penises. So then buying a HUGE Hummer EVERYONE likes to STARE AT satisfies their sick urges at dominance and exhibitionism. But here&#39;s a fun, rough adventure for Hummer owners. Drive your damn shitwagon thru Africa. Be sure to put signs on the car informing on-lookers how much the car costs. See how long you live.

The stupidity of the Hummer owners is more than evident. They basically buy a car that looks like tuna can for a ton of money. The only thing separating a KIA from a Hummer is that the first costs one-tenth of the second. Speaking of crappy cars like KIA, most of my childhood was spent in Hungary. Being a communist country until 1989, Hungary had (and still has) its share of shitty communist manufactured crap cars. Let&#39;s have an example and its blueprint:
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/hummer/trabant_pic.jpg
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/hummer/trabant_blueprint.png
he "car" you see above is called the Trabant (pronounced as hôrssht). It was incessantly manufactured in Eastern Europe from about the 60&#39;s until just a few years ago, though you can still see Trabants all across Eastern Europe. (Some people had to wait up to a decade to receive the car after ordering.) Having taken more than necessary rides in what I like to call "communism on wheels", I can tell you that it&#39;s exactly like a woody roller coaster, except not nearly fast. Seriously though, the body of the Trabant IS made out of some cardboard type wood. Apart from the lining on the side view mirrors and windshielf wipers, the car is all cardboard. Essentially, a car made out of reinforced paper. In fact, we could call it a box with seats if boxes weren&#39;t so offended by the comparison. The cost of the car (including such generous add-ons as the engine, windshield wipers, seats, paper frame, windows, rear view mirror, and super glue for maintenance) was around &#036;200. This is where the classic Hummer owner stupidty comes in.

But before we continue to bash Hummer owners, let&#39;s look at more images. Our second set of pictures shows us a Hummer with its blueprint I made in Microshaft Paint in little over 3 minutes. I seriously doubt that the Hummer&#39;s numerous engineers, scienticians, statisticians, and mathemagicians came up with anything better. Notice the uncanny resemblance to the nicknamed "communism on wheels":
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/hummer/hummer_pic.jpg
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/hummer/hummer_blueprint.png
Hmmmm... Interesting, to say the least. Paper box with seats, sells for the equivalent of &#036;200. Metal box with seats, sells for &#036;100,000. Thusfore, Hummer owners are not only greedy bastards, sexual perverts, and convicted child molestors, but they also horribly suck at math. You&#39;d think people who could spend &#036;100,000 on a damn car would be competent enough to realize what a rip off the Hummer is. Oh well, the feeling of having a penis that doesn&#39;t resemble female genitalia is worth all the money in the world, I guess.

If someone you know is a proud owner of a Hummer, please don&#39;t hesitate to give them this gift below. Simply print it out on sticker paper and you have your very own Hummer bumper sticker&#33;
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/hummer/bumper_sticker.jpg
Hummer likes to brag that it&#39;s Like Nothing Else™. Let me list a few experiences that are similar to the Hummer in that they are Like Nothing Else™:

* Neglecting starving children by buying unneeded show-off transportation vehicles.
* Cutting off your penis with garden tweezers forcing you to buy show-off transportation vehicles.
* Swimming in an Amazonian lake full of man-eating piranhas.
* Washing your hair by flushing your head in a toilet.
* Drowning in a large bucket of shit.
* Beastiality
* Cannabalism
* Engaging in prostitution
* Eating dog shit.
* Understanding the evolution of cars.

Doonesbury H2 Comic (May 25, 2003)
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/hummer/doonesbury.gif


I do so love it when someone gives my rants for me, albeit with a rather libertarian and ant-communist twist ;)

[Palmares]

You guys need to relax about the issue, I&#39;m sure all of you would ask ZDLR for his autograph if you met him.

Got to agree with UR on this one. The last celebrity I met was at the trainstation, and I simply walked up to him and asked him what he was upto these days.

[NOTE TO Ian: It was Shaun Micallef (sp?)&#33;]


Originally posted by DaCuBaN
I don&#39;t, and it appears I&#39;m by no means alone

Fair enough. But I like Volvos too.

[NovelGentry]

nor have I implied that environmentalism is derived....


I never said that it was a...

You really gave a very personal attack quality to what I titled "General Responses to the thread" -- is this cause I called you reactionary in that other thread?

[STI]

Anyone that would ask for a celebrity&#39;s autograph (at least, past the age of 12 or so) is a mindless moron.

You&#39;re right. The real trick is to get a picture of you kissing him/her. I did that with George Stromboulopoulos, and it made me famous. I even have a fragrence (http://northernfaction.com/Mass_Media/Photos/04.10.21.jpg) named after me.

Anyway. On the RATM issue.

If not for RATM, I very well may not be a leftist. They first got me interested in politics and the sort. Their reading list pointed me to "What Uncle Sam Really Wants" by Noam Chomsky, which opened my eyes to US Imperialism and all that.

Does that make them any less wankerish? No. Why not "take what they have to offer", and toss the rest. There&#39;s no need for any loyalty to the band itself.

Oh, on to the reading list again, it seems almost as though they just took as many "leftist" books as they could find, and threw them together. I mean, Lenin and Bakunin on the same list.

We should be highly critical of them, pirate the hell out of their music, and use it inasmuch as it is useful and entertaining.

[Yazman]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 6+Dec 3 2004, 07:20 AM--> (Knowledge 6 6 6 @ Dec 3 2004, 07:20 AM)
[email protected] 2 2004, 04:21 PM
it&#39;s about finding our niche within the system...and being content with it. [/b]
FUCK that. Being "content with it" is the exact mindset that propagates capitalism and allows it to flourish.

Summary: fuck you.

[Urban Rubble]

You really gave a very personal attack quality to what I titled "General Responses to the thread" -- is this cause I called you reactionary in that other thread?

No, it was because your "general response" was a response to things I had said.

How about addressing what I said ?

Edit: And where in that post did I personally attack anyone ?

[NovelGentry]

How about addressing what I said ?

The reason I gave a general response to begin with was because really I could not give a shit what Rage Against the Machine does. I think there&#39;s far better ways to introduce people to revolutionary thinking through their music, and I&#39;d not be surprised in the least if their major drive for using such ideas is publicity.

I&#39;m not saying they don&#39;t actually believe this stuff, just that it obviously serves dual purpose for anyone in an entertainment industry -- and yes, it is an industry.


Edit: And where in that post did I personally attack anyone ?

Where did I say you did? I said it had a very personal attack quality -- that is instead of

When you say things like "I never said that..." or "I never implied that..." you indeed turn my general response to a personal attack on you, saying that I DID say that you said that, and seying that I DID say you implied that.

I have used this in this very response, but now it&#39;s a bit of a different story since we are certainly on a personal response level now. In fact, with my original "general response" -- I never said anyone said anything, nor did I every say anyone implied anything. It was simply a general response, had I wanted to show that someone said or implied something, I would have quoted.

[Urban Rubble]

I have used this in this very response, but now it&#39;s a bit of a different story since we are certainly on a personal response level now. In fact, with my original "general response" -- I never said anyone said anything, nor did I every say anyone implied anything. It was simply a general response, had I wanted to show that someone said or implied something, I would have quoted.

Well, most of what was included in your "general response" were directly responses to things I had said, so I just took it all as a direct response to me.

[Pawn Power]

we&#39;re all capitalists if we live in capitalist nations.

No we are not. I do not own the means of production, I do not acquire labor, and I do not sell capital. In fact most people are not capitalists; capitalists are those wealthy top 3% americans, the rest, sell themselves daily for a wage. Most people are laborers and consumers, being exploited and swindled by the capitalists.



Again, we&#39;re all part of the system...it&#39;s about finding our niche within the system...and being content with it.

At best reactionary


But I&#39;m the first to admit that I&#39;m a capitalist.

Can someone be capitalist and a communist/marxist?



I claim to be a marxist yes

Your claim is false