Holocaust Denial - a crime?

[I Will Deny You]

I was talking to a European about this a little while ago, and I was reminded of it by a post in another thread. What do you all think about penalties for denying the Holocaust? I certainly don't think denying the Holocaust is a good idea, but I don't think people should be punished by the state for it. Here's my plan:
Level 1 of criminal Holocaust denial: "How do we know for sure that the Holocaust didn't happen?" Punishment: Offender is forced to watch videos of little kids being killed in the Holocaust.
Level 2: "I don't think the Holocaust happened." Punshiment: Offender is no longer allowed to get diamonds at wholesale prices.
Level 3: "The Holocaust most certainly didn't happen. Mel Brooks just made it up so that he could make The Producers." Punishment: Offender is forced to listen to a Jewish babushka whine on and on in a Yiddish accent.
Level 4: "The Holocaust didn't happen, but I wish all Jews would die." Punishment: Offender is forced to watch the whole Jerry Lewis telathon.

No fines. No jail time. Just the Jerry Lewis deterrent!

Lindsay

[Reuben]

I like your Idea comrade. You have as you always do approached this issue with adequate seriosnesss and WITHOUT a hint of your renowned SARCASM :-) (YEAH RIGHT)

If you ever decide to put your plan into action I will be more than happy to donate some of my dads many scratchy yiddish records as a particularly sever means of punishment, although it is hard to think of a crime that could merit such a viscious act of revenge.

I am not sure whether it should be a crime. in some ways I am very much for free speech, yet it strikes me that if one can fear punishment for libelling an individual, then for somebody to feel they can deny the holocaust, can dismiss as 'jewish money grabbers' a group of people (holocaust survivors) as a result of suffering the terrible injustice that they suffered iswrong.


Sorry for not being very articulate ontthe subject, its one in the morning here in england and i been up for ages revising.

[Rob]

I think that you were articulate enough, Reuben. But I do think that Holocaust denial should be considered criminal. Freedom of Speech is valuable, but I think that it would greater serve humanity to recognize the Holocaust, not only for the sake of the victims, but for the sake of future generations, so that it may never happen again.

[Vide]

Holocaust denial should be allowed and should go unpunished, as should other forms of revisionist history. Liars will not stop lying simply because they are censored. These histories should be released to the public but it should be made explictly clear that they are revision of history and are therefore false. In addition, I doubt there would be any shortage of authors to vilify and malign these books after they were released.

(Edited by Vide at 8:02 pm on June 17, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

free speech goes to a certain extent. when someone denies that the holocaust ever happened, i find it extermely offensive and insulting. my family was not in the holocaust, but millions of other families were, and millions were slaughtered, and we must NEVER forget it.

some things go beyond the laws set by the state. if it was legal to murder, would you do it? does the thing that keeps you from murdering is the law? i'm sure it isn't. because, as people, we have morals (or at least i hope we do) and values, and denying the holocaust is a moral crime.

[El Che]

Last I checked the solution for those who deny facts was commitement to a mental institution.

Unless they are philosophers, in which case, denial of reality is considered an intellectual achievement. :)

(Edited by El Che at 2:38 pm on June 18, 2002)

[Drifter]

i think you have to ask yourself why are they denying it?
what are the facts that they claim to support their theory, and what supports current theories about the holocaust i assume it happened personaly but weather it was quite as bad as people tend to suggest i have not done enough research to comment on it.
on the other hand, who cares? it was all in the past any way

[James]

on the other hand, who cares? it was all in the past any way

Go on a visit to a concentration camp (even something like sachsenhausen - not a death camp), then ask that.


James

[oki]

holocast deniel is a form of antisemitism.in fact they're saiing"the jews just made that up,see what lieers they are."I think especially in germany this is an issue,and illegalising is a weapon of the police to fight neo-nazi's.in propaganda magazines the deniel is read and then they can prosicute the makers of these facist magazines.allso germany never wants facism to win again so they repress it.

[Menshevik]

They just need more education on the subject.

[Edelweiss]

It's illegal in Germany to publish stuff which is denying the holocaust. But I don't know if censorship is the right way to deal with it.
And Drifter, you are an idiot! Nobody missed you while you was gone, why don't you just leave again?

[Hattori Hanzo]

Malte, probably not in Germany, caus' you guys have almost no neo's left, right? (left as in alone and existing, not communistic ;)

[Kez]

if u let genocide denail go freely then people will forget the horrors of such massacres.
Those who forget the past are destined to repeat them.

U want another armenian genocide? Jewish Genocide? Rwandan Genocide? (chronological order)

when all people are intelligent and ignorance is part of the past then free debate should be allowed, but no when u got fascists who will fool the minds of the ignorant for their disgracefulk cause.

Heres a twister,
if you could create a genocide of ALL fascists, ie clean fascists over the course of 1 night, and that is guaranteed to be the last of predjudice ever, should that be allowed???

Comrade Kamo

[Hattori Hanzo]

don't hear enough about the rwanda story...

[Edelweiss]

Quote: from Hattori Hanzo on 4:57 pm on June 18, 2002
Malte, probably not in Germany, caus' you guys have almost no neo's left, right? (left as in alone and existing, not communistic ;)


You mean Neo-Nazi's? There's is a whole lot of them here! According to the innner intelligence service there are about 60.000 of them here in Germany. In some cities in Germany, especially in the former DDR, it's very very bad, there are some areas were you can't go through as a foreigner or known leftist. But there's also a big resistance against them, e.g. whenever there's a Neo-Nazi march (they are mobilizing from 100-1000 people at their marches) there are many more leftist counter-demonstrators there who are trying to stop the march. I'm often going to such counter-demonstrations, unfortunetly the Nazi scum is protected by the cop's. If the Nazis wouldn't be protected at their marches there wouldn't be any more Neo-Nazis left in Germany :)

[Menshevik]

Malte, why isn't the German govt. doing more to prevent such huge neo-nazi marches and meetings? They've made so many anti-nazi laws as it is, why not do more? Just in the last decade, it's gotten worse. Now they're doing more than marching, they're actually killing people.

[Edelweiss]

Well, we have free speech and the right for demonstration in Germany, and as long as the Nazis obey to ceratin rules they can march. Sad but true. You know, I'm aginst governmental censorship and bannings but I'm also against the police protection of those permitted marches :)

[Anonymous]

i know a judg in spain that give a sentece to a thief that was analfabeth, he was forced to take rading classes! is that a crime too? making a poor analfabet read? making him see the truth? making him see the redemption? i thing that anyone that denys the holocaust shuold be killed!!!! denying what is more than proved? its stupid!

[Moskitto]

Some don't deny the holocaust the anti-semantic reasons. Groups such as the BNP deny the holocaust because people knowing about the holocaust is an obsticle for them coming into power. However groups such as the WCOTC or Jew Watch deny the holocaust for anti-semantic reasons.

[Reuben]

if you could create a genocide of ALL fascists, ie clean fascists over the course of 1 night, and that is guaranteed to be the last of predjudice ever, should that be allowed???

Comrade Kamo


In my opinion, fascism and racism do not eminate from individuals, but instead racism is both a manifestation and a necesssity of capitalism. The bourgoirsie have an interest in racism.

IMO, the holocaust denia of the BNP is very tied in with anti-semitism. NThey have, i think, said that the jews made up the hoocaust for profit

[Fires of History]

Those that deny the Holocaust are racist shit. However, free speech should never be curtailed in any way.

Granted, anyone who would deny the Holocaust is a fool.

But the person who would deny their rights to free speech is a fool as well.

Free speech means free speech. Good and bad.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Menshevik on 11:19 am on June 18, 2002
They just need more education on the subject.[/hr]Mark my words: I would love nothing more than to live in a world where education solved everything. But unfortunately, that's not how it works. Many of these people are brainwashed. You can't just hold a photograph of Auschwitz in front of their face and expect them to say, "Oh, I guess you're right." Education would definitely help, but it's not all we need.[hr]Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 12:30 pm on June 18, 2002
if u let genocide denail go freely then people will forget the horrors of such massacres.[hr]There's a difference between denying and forgetting. When someone denies the Holocaust, it actually brings more attention to the atrocities.[hr]Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 12:30 pm on June 18, 2002
U want another armenian genocide? Jewish Genocide? Rwandan Genocide? (chronological order)[hr]You surely know more about the Armenian genocide than I do (and I respect you for your knowledge of it and your efforts to have it recognized) but I can tell you one thing about the Holocaust: While it was the biggest massacre of Jews, it was not the first. And the Jews who were Nazi victims knew this. For example, more Jews died in Poland than anywhere else and there have been many anti-semitic crimes committed in Poland before, such as the Worms massacre in the 1600's. Rememberance is important, but it is not the only tool needed. And the Rwandan genocide had nothing to do with forgetting the Holocaust, by the way.[hr]Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 12:30 pm on June 18, 2002
Heres a twister,
if you could create a genocide of ALL fascists, ie clean fascists over the course of 1 night, and that is guaranteed to be the last of predjudice ever, should that be allowed???[hr]No. Definitely not.[hr]Quote: from Malte on 1:06 pm on June 18, 2002
You mean Neo-Nazi's? There's is a whole lot of them here![hr]Send some to my town, Malte! There are a whole bunch of huge-ass black guys that could tear a neo-Nazi to shreds![hr]Quote: from Malte on 1:06 pm on June 18, 2002
I'm often going to such counter-demonstrations, unfortunetly the Nazi scum is protected by the cop's.[hr]You mean those fences that they put up between the demonstrations? If there weren't any fences, there would be riots. Also, I've seen neo-Nazis arrested by black and Hispanic cops at demonstrations, which is pretty cool.[hr]Quote: from Malte on 1:06 pm on June 18, 2002
If the Nazis wouldn't be protected at their marches there wouldn't be any more Neo-Nazis left in Germany :)[hr]Yeah, but then there also couldn't be any counter-demonstrations by peaceful (aka "wimpy") groups like the NAACP. And since neo-Nazis and the Klan have been known to demonstrate at conventions for black families, it's good that the cops are caging them in.[hr]Quote: from Moskitto on 5:24 pm on June 18, 2002
Some don't deny the holocaust the anti-semantic reasons.[hr]There's a huge difference between anti-semitic and anti-semantic, my friend. ;)

Lindsay

[Vide]

Rueben, Rob, Blasphemy, TavareeshKamo: The thought police of the new socialist republic, bless their little hearts.

[ArgueEverything]

would norman finkelstein be considered an anti-semite/holocaust denier?

he's said that there is a "holocaust industry" of rich jews trying to make money.

the thing is, he's a jew, and his dad was imprisoned in a concentration camp.

[Angie]

Denying the holocaust is just stupid, not to mention heartless and showing a severe lack of knowledge in the area of 20th Century history.

Making it a crime is just as stupid. It's kind of like saying, "You don't believe in Christmas? Why don't you believe in Christmas? I'm going to lock you away within a jail's solitary confinement until you believe in Christmas!" Does nothing.

[Reuben]

Argue everything the myth that you attributed to norman finkelstein of jews trying to make money from the holocaust is an anti-semitic myth and does go with holocaust denial.

However, this is not at all what Finkelstein said. He has been grossly misrepresented. MY dad read his book expecting to disagree with it, but in fact he is saying nothing about 'rch jews' what he is talking about is the way certain organisations have ripped off the individual victims of the holocaust,;. It was not an anti-semitic text. He was not talking generally about the so called 'sjewish lobby' or 'jewwish organisations. I think it related to certain specific organisations, though it was written in sympathy with holocaust survivors.

[oki]

antisemitism in germany is at the moment at the highest since ww 2.so they do have a reason for doing what they do.but then again ,it obviously doesn't work.
nazism there is a form of rebellion,maybe like the USA gangs.

[Edelweiss]

I agree that being a Nazi is often just a pubertal rebellion. I mean it's the only way you can really piss off everyone. At least in Germany nearly noone cares if you call yourself a commie and walk around with a Che shirt, but if you walk around with any Nazi shit you shurely will get much attention from all people you wanna rebel against.
Concerning Finkelstein: He's a big "star" for thr Nazi's here. they are quoting him all the time in their publications.

[I Will Deny You]

Finkelstein has a few good points, but he's also a bullshitter. He misrepresented a lot of facts of the case in The Holocause Industry. But he never denied the Holocaust.
Quote: from oki on 10:03 am on June 19, 2002
nazism there is a form of rebellion,maybe like the USA gangs.Lots of people join American gangs to make money.

Lindsay

[ArgueEverything]

Quote: from Reuben on 2:59 pm on June 19, 2002
Argue everything the myth that you attributed to norman finkelstein of jews trying to make money from the holocaust is an anti-semitic myth and does go with holocaust denial.

However, this is not at all what Finkelstein said. He has been grossly misrepresented. MY dad read his book expecting to disagree with it, but in fact he is saying nothing about 'rch jews' what he is talking about is the way certain organisations have ripped off the individual victims of the holocaust,;. It was not an anti-semitic text. He was not talking generally about the so called 'sjewish lobby' or 'jewwish organisations. I think it related to certain specific organisations, though it was written in sympathy with holocaust survivors.


ok, cool. thanks for clarifying

(Edited by ArgueEverything at 9:48 am on June 20, 2002)

[Drifter]

I'm not a racist,, i was on that anti-racism march in dresden and all that, (actually i just like marches, but anyway) i just don't like the instant labeling of things you disagree with its not impossible for history books to be biased in favour of the jews and unless you've done research into this who are you to just dissmiss it out of hand. as for history, for fucks sake sometimes its better for everyone to just leave things be, you don't havre to forget but nobody has to start dreging this shit up again, it happened, its not going to unhappen whining about isn't going to bring these people back. My grandfather was captured by the russians and he didn't have a lot of fun, but i haven't got anything major against the russians.

[Reuben]

it happened, its not going to unhappen whining about isn't going to bring these people back

I dont particularly like your attitudewhich is shallow to say the least.

You say that your grandfather was captured by the germans but you do not hate 'the russsians. HOW IS THIS RELEVANT. Nobody here is expressing hatred of 'the germans'. We have every right however to hate nazis and their fucking apologists, similarly you have the right to dislike those imprisoned your granfather.

When you refer to whining, do you see jews who refer to the holocaust s simply "whining". do you expect us to stop talking about it. Believe me the holocaust is still manifesting itself in jewish suffering (as well as othergroups) . I know a holocaust survivor who understandably hasnt had one peaceful night since she was realeased from belsen.

Think before you tell poeple to stop dragging up the pst and "whining"

[Blasphemy]

i think we can all agree that even free speech has limits. i think that just like someone can't go on TV and call for the murder of someone, he can't deny the holocaust as well.

we must look forward. as time passes, it is easier to forget, and so holocaust deniers will have more support. in a hundred years from now, no one will remember the holocaust. it will be just another chapter in the history books. that is if we let holocaust deniers continue with their work.

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from Blasphemy on 9:49 am on June 21, 2002
i think we can all agree that even free speech has limits. i think that just like someone can't go on TV and call for the murder of someone, he can't deny the holocaust as well.

we must look forward. as time passes, it is easier to forget, and so holocaust deniers will have more support. in a hundred years from now, no one will remember the holocaust. it will be just another chapter in the history books. that is if we let holocaust deniers continue with their work.[hr]It's been far more than 100 years since the Union won the Civil War, and even though it is legal to deny that black and Native American people were enslaved, nearly everone believes that slavery happened in the South and no one has forgotten it.

Lindsay