will communism ever be possible?

[gam]

so, america being in a state of capitalism, is filled with not only rich people but poor people too.....now what makes you think that the wealthy citizens of america will ever be willing to conform to the communist ways....what would make the wealthy give up all they have to be equal with the poorest of workers? i can't understand what we could say now to convince the rich, that they don't already know.

[VukBZ2005]

1
The fact is that - the Rich Upper Class fears Communism - for if
Real Communism were to be implemented - That would mean the
end of their class privileges, the end of their domination over the
means and mode of production and most importantly - it would
mean the end of class society and the state. They fear the liberation
of humanity from class domination, capitalism and the state - this
is why they will not accept Real Communism by any means.
Because excepting the end of Class Society and the State will
be too much for them to bear or see.

2
The only solution is a mass worker's revolution which will eliminate
classes, commodity production and the state - in favor of Real
Communism. But we have a long way to go and a lot of work
to do in order to make proletarian revolution a possibility.

[Zingu]

We don't convince them, we overthrow them, then the working class seizes the economic and political power and form the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, then and only then does Communism come into play.

If you're wondering, basically, we leftists are ulitmately preaching open revolt against the ruling class.

[Snitza]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 10:45 PM
so, america being in a state of capitalism, is filled with not only rich people but poor people too.....now what makes you think that the wealthy citizens of america will ever be willing to conform to the communist ways....what would make the wealthy give up all they have to be equal with the poorest of workers? i can't understand what we could say now to convince the rich, that they don't already know.
Because we live in class society, we are divided by our classes and have separate class interests; while it's in the interest of the working class to create a communist revolution, it is in the interest of the ruling class to prevent such a revolution.

You're absolutely correct: why would they willingly give up their mansions, factories, and giant sacks of money? They won't! Hell, no one would! This is why we have to TAKE it from them by bloody and violent force. Humanity as we know it is split down the middle by financial and social disproportions; capitalism by it's very nature can only extend the gap between rich and poor, and never, EVER close it.

Some of the rich CAN be convinced, of course. Like Engels, some are morally or intellectually convinced that communism is the only way "out" of the shithole world we live in. But don't make a big campaign out of trying to convert the ruling class to our side; better we use our time and energy to muster the REAL power in our society: the working class

[Rasta Sapian]

If the workers were to conceptualize, they might leave there jobs within the cities, move to the rural areas, go back in time when agriculture ruled, produce, commune in life, labour for life, the tables would turn!

visualize, utilize, and realize the commune potential, together we can change the world!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 03:00 AM
We don't convince them, we overthrow them, then the working class seizes the economic and political power and form the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, then and only then does Communism come into play.

If you're wondering, basically, we leftists are ulitmately preaching open revolt against the ruling class.
yeah dictatorship great fucking idea if you like stalin or pol pot

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 04:00 AM
We don't convince them, we overthrow them, then the working class seizes the economic and political power and form the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, then and only then does Communism come into play.

If you're wondering, basically, we leftists are ulitmately preaching open revolt against the ruling class.
Strange idea for someone with an anarcho-syndicalist avatar.

[Wiesty]

no because no one wants to live in a perferct society, there needs to be some choices made by you, living in a communist nation is like watching re-runs of the brady bunch.

Whoever invented the idea, is a genious, but most of people who try to inforce it are idiots so it dosent work.

It would however work with some changes.

Money should be payed equally to differnet jobs
so a plumber isnt making the same as a brain surgean

but there are still people living better then the middle classes, which better wages and some perks. So lets get off the line between Communism and Monarchy and make every job have a set income, and still be more than the bare minimum to survive

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I can concur with some things you say wiesty

[Essential Insignificance]

no because no one wants to live in a perferct society, there needs to be some choices made by you, living in a communist nation is like watching re-runs of the brady bunch.

No one has ever, to my knowledge, of any significance or credibility ever said that a communist society was going to be "perfect"... nor should you!

Choices! Who has choices under a capitalist economic constitution? The proletarian is forced to work and toil away for the capitalist class day in day out whilst he (the capitalist) extracts profit from his labor... if he declines to labor he faces deplorable condition, starvation or even premature death.

Is this a "choice"?!


Whoever invented the idea, is a genious, but most of people who try to inforce it are idiots so it dosent work.

What crazy "logic" you employ in argument; if that's what you want to call it.


It would however work with some changes.

Says who? You? How thoughtless, senseless, ignorant and naïve you are.

You have no idea!


Money should be payed equally to differnet jobs
so a plumber isnt making the same as a brain surgean

Why?

In a communist society people won't be "defined" and "stipulated" with definitive "occupations" or more soundly "life-activities" such as the case is for capitalism (and seldom do people escape this suppression) ; instead, work will be socially regulated, in the sense, that no one will have specific social roles to complete, day in and day out.

So one day I might be working in a factory producing, arm chairs; the following week outside herding cattle; and the week following that, serving people at a distribution warehouse.

Work will become enjoyable, diverse and stimulating, instead of the detestable, repetitive "must -do" labor we find in existence now; we look at our "life-activity" has something alien and hostile, something that we loath; this will not happen in a communist society, because our "life- activity" will be in a perpetual change.

If a plumber didn't complete his skilled labor at the local hospital, and there was an overflowing of sewage -- ankle height -- thought out the hospital, carrying with it diseases and virus's, what "good" would the doctor be to treat the ill. If the factory worker didn't make the syringe to inject the drug, to make someone "better", what "good" would the doctor be?

Why should someone be paid more because they studied longer then some else? Why should someone have access to more "things" because they were "born-smarter" or have a bigger memory capacity.

They shouldn't!

[Wurkwurk]

Here's my abbrieviated response to why (I believe) communism won't work. I was once a communist last year after reading numerous books for and against it, but after soul searching I found the truth I always believed.

Communism dosen't work. Period. It might for several decades, but once the revolutionary fervor died out, many people will openly detest it. And without almost complete support from the people (that was never achived in history for a long period of time), communism will collapse.
You see, here is how it goes. WhaBAng! Switzerland had a revolution, the people rose up, there was a last stand by government forces in Zurich...and they were defeated. Three of the revolutionaries, Joseph, Christoph, and Simone, are happy with what happened.
For the next twenty years, Joseph, Christoph, and Simone gladly work to better their fellow countrymen, willingly sacrificing from themselves to give to others. They also recieved much from their fellow countrymen, who was equally caught up in the revolution.
But twenty years past, and all of a sudden, Christoph turns lazy. I mean, really lazy. Instead of working dilegenty on the farm or in the factory, he slouched on a bench and drinks a couple of beers. A whole year passed where Joseph and Simone didn't mind this laziness, but afterwards, they became pretty pissed off. Not only were they working twice as hard as Christoph, but Christoph got the same amount of clothes and food as them!
Pretty pissed of turns into anger, and soon both sides are shouting with one another. Then social unrest, and by that time, the system had failed. It was a good twenty years admittedly, but the 'ones who got lazy' and numerous second generation offspring will lose the revolutionary fervor and wonder why their working so hard to provide the same for people sitting on their butts. Soical unrest turns into open hostility, and heaven forbid, civil war or foreign intervention.

Nor do i support capitalism, becasue no matter how you look at it, it is UNFAIR. Even in the first twenty years and beyond, it is little good. I lay betweed the two, capitalism and communism. I consider myself a socialist, even though I know many disagree.

Fire away, folks! I expect some harsh comments coming my way!

[Subversive Pessimist]

Work will become enjoyable, diverse and stimulating, instead of the detestable, repetitive "must -do" labor we find in existence now; we look at our "life-activity" has something alien and hostile, something that we loath; this will not happen in a communist society, because our "life- activity" will be in a perpetual change.



Sure, picking up garbage is fun and exciting. :rolleyes:

[NovelGentry]

Wurwurk, your example is a great one... if it had any relevance amongst truly revolutionary people. If you ask me, all three seem rectionary from the start.


They also recieved much from their fellow countrymen, who was equally caught up in the revolution.

Caught up in the revolution? What is this, the new fashion statement? Give me a break -- there's a strong argument that communism is achieved only with a revolutionary majority, and there's an even stronger argument that in advanced capitalist societies you need a revolutionary majority to even succeed in the initial revolution.

[h&s]

For the next twenty years, Joseph, Christoph, and Simone gladly work to better their fellow countrymen, willingly sacrificing from themselves to give to others
Thats why your Communism won't work - it relies on uber vanguardists doing the work 'for' the people. In a system without this reliance on others to do everything for them, the working class will have a far greater input (well they will have the input) into what happens in society. Then there wouldn't be anyone that could disillusion the people to the goal of communism - if any one of their state 'leaders' (not an ideal word I know, but I couldn't think of another) doesn't pull their weight, the people will get rid of them.

[Wiesty]

Originally posted by Essential [email protected] 28 2004, 10:11 PM
Why should someone be paid more because they studied longer then some else? Why should someone have access to more "things" because they were "born-smarter" or have a bigger memory capacity.

They shouldn't!
ok so ur telling me if someone goes to university for 7 years and becomes a lawer, brain surgean, etc and tries their hardest to help people, that they should have to live a mediocre life, being poor and making the same as a street sweeper who contributes nothing to society?

[DaCuBaN]

ok so ur telling me if someone goes to university for 7 years and becomes a lawer, brain surgean, etc and tries their hardest to help people, that they should have to live a mediocre life, being poor and making the same as a street sweeper who contributes nothing to society?

YES!

I suspect that part of being a communist is the acceptance that we all have our role within society to play - that for us to do our job, everyone else must do theirs - is it so much to accept that such egalitarian attitudes must be accompanied by economic equality? Is there really any merit in a capital meritocracy?

On another note, as someone who decided long ago that institutionalised education from this society would not serve my purposes, and hence departed aforementioned institutions at the first available oppertunity to partake in employment and has since been "promoted" to a position that requires a university education, only to have my old position filled by an individual with eight years more education than myself, I think we can safely say that such "meritocracy" doesn't work in practice.

[Essential Insignificance]

Sure, picking up garbage is fun and exciting.

Why shouldn't it be "fun" and "exciting"?


ok so ur telling me if someone goes to university for 7 years and becomes a lawer, brain surgean, etc and tries their hardest to help people, that they should have to live a mediocre life, being poor and making the same as a street sweeper who contributes nothing to society?

You're being extremely ambiguous and uncertain -- and showing a superficial understanding of the communist movement, and the general form of communist society.

1. Nobody, I anticipate, will ever live in poverty or near like conditions in a communist society, thus I don't see why, even you, would be suggesting such a thing.

Our whole "movement" is devised to eradicate these social inequalities, which are inherently build within the "illusory communal" -- presupposed by private property.

2. Nobody will be paid with "money" (currency) or anything like that in a communist society... instead the populace will be distributed the material goods, which they need and/or ask for... and society will function to the maxim: "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".

3. What profound "offerings" do lawyers contribute to society, how do they really "help" people, whose interests are they really severing?

If the street sweeper didn't caring out his activity, what would happen?

I'm sure that you are aware of the intensity of the waste we (humans) produce. We'd be living in a torment garbage, perhaps unable to function normally. How would the brain surgeon be able to perform his skills, if he couldn't drive/walk/ride to work, because of the excessive garbage sprawled out "everywhere"?

Not to mention the appalling conditions we would live in, if the street sweeper didn't contribute his skilled labor to society. Or the diseases that would spread manifold because of the filthy conditions.

[Kaan]

ok so ur telling me if someone goes to university for 7 years and becomes a lawer, brain surgean, etc and tries their hardest to help people, that they should have to live a mediocre life, being poor and making the same as a street sweeper who contributes nothing to society?



Both the street sweeper (or any other sanitation service) and the brain surgeon (or any other medical service) are socially necessary. During the middle ages, most diseases were caused by poor sanitation, people would literally throw there shit out into the streets and let it contaminate their drinking water (before they knew about the dangers of course), this is what most likely caused some of the plagues and most of the sickness. Now what good are a bunch of doctors when the majority of the population suffers from sickness' caused by living in their own shit? The obvious conclusion would be to quit living in your own shit, making sanitation workers socially necessary.

[Wiesty]

you all have very good points, and it is true that all jobs to contribute to society. but then my question is what is the use of going to university for 7 years to make something of yourself, so u can provide for your family, when u could just sign up for a job at the confectionary. In all reality there would be a lot of highly educated jobs that need filling.

I see what you are saying now, and it make sence, but thats how alot of people think what i said in the 1st paragraph, but then why are half the doctors coming out of cuba, if there making the same as a gas pumper?

[DaCuBaN]

but then my question is what is the use of going to university for 7 years to make something of yourself

You've answered your own question:

The purpose of going through education - a never ending process, might I add - is to make something "better" of yourself - not for the material gain. The material gain is arguably what's left us in the position we're in trying to overthrow capitalism.

As to current further education? Well, a degree in the UK is one of two things: It's a ticket to join the lower ranks of the ruling classes, and it's evidence of your ability to learn. Once you depart the education system, the whole process will start over.

I can almost guarantee that with the exception of Medicine and Physics, you probably won't go into a field especially relevant to that which you studied.


why are half the doctors coming out of cuba

They can get a better "deal" elsewhere. Whilst the incentive of capital reinbursement remains, we cannot proceed to a more egalitarian society. Before this can happen, the idea of capital incentive must be placed secondary in our minds behind that of personal - and societal (in regards to society as a whole, not the "society ladder") - advancement.

[commiecrusader]

Different jobs have different benefits. Being a Binman my often be unpleasant, but working hours are relatively short, and you finish early enough in the day to be able to do other things. All jobs have a good side, its just about finding it.

There is more to university than just the Degree. I mainly want to go because it opens up a wider range of jobs - I could still work at the Co-Op, or I could get a more advanced job. But it also has a great social life, good opportunity to meet new people, a ticket to get away from home.