Money,The Real Evil

[A_Devious_Mind]

Money,The Real Evil.

Wants & Desires........we all have wants and desires to own things,but not everyone has the means to satisfy them (money) so at the end of the day......some resort to violence and unlawfull activities, but what if there was no money at all, what if we reverted back to what you would call the 'barter system' with fixed values for every thing,that would be a perfect system of exchange that would cut the roots of capitalism....as we all know.....capitalists = money munchers,i wonder what the hell theyre gonna do with all thier money,at the end of the day everyones gonna die,why not help a few,donate some money to the poor.....i wonder what the hell is wrong with people and how low people can go....i mean....people killing other people for money,even their friends and relatives? thats the most barbaric thing ive ever heard of.
we value money more than human life? wars are being raged, millions of people losing their lives....for what? oil? is that how shallow we have become? dont you think that money is the root of all evil (capitalism).

[RedAnarchist]

Of course it is, that is why it wont exist in a communist society, as we will not work for commodities or for fat cats, but for ourselves and the community.

Those who place money and possessions over humanity and society are those that are not free either in their own body or their own mind. We can free ourselves from capitalism but they need to be freed both from capitalism and themselves.

[A_Devious_Mind]

atleast someone agrees with me :)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

How about abolishing money as soon as possible?

Saving your society precious resources and manpower by engaging in as little bureacracy as possible.

""from each according to his ability, to each according to his need." seems a far more brilliant idea, no?

[che's long lost daughter]

I think we cannot absolutely abolish money, or what money represents or the context on how it is used. We would always need "money", in the sense that consumung something must be paid for. So, maybe returning to the barter system would be a good idea. What needs to be abolished is monetary unit.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by che's long lost [email protected] 26 2004, 09:53 AM
I think we cannot absolutely abolish money, or what money represents or the context on how it is used. We would always need "money", in the sense that consumung something must be paid for. So, maybe returning to the barter system would be a good idea. What needs to be abolished is monetary unit.
Why though? Bartering can still give peopel more power than others. Then we could repeat the entirety of history again. We started off bartering, then the state, then money, etc. I think you need to do away with it all together. Make things that are "state" run not involve money. It's all about equal redistribution.

[komon]

greed is. if money, was people, it will be people :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

You have to keep in mind that I keep on a completly different type of society. Inwhich the mentality is based on sociality rather then selfishness.

That and direct-democracy communities makes sure that people are community minded. In such a atmoshphere "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need." becomes a far more realistic idea.

For the social type of society to succeed we must eleminate as many "selfish" elements as possible. Such as making it impossible to get rich, to have power over others etc.

[komon]

"from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
marx but .where are you?

say you can not do anything but you need bread?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

then you get bread and don't do anything.

[komon]

thanks

[Agent provocateur]

The exact Bible quote: "For the love of money is the root of all evil:" [emphasis mine]


1 Timothy 6:10

[A_Devious_Mind]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Nov 26 2004, 06:10 PM
then you get bread and don't do anything.
then wouldnt everyone just lay around eating and doing nothing? why would someone want to work if theyre getting what they need without any effort?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

There isn't a human who's dreamlife is sitting in front of the tv of as you say it "just lay around eating and doing nothing".

People want to achieve, socialize, hapiness for themselves and others (solidarity). Humans are social and caring.

This is a side of the story which is heavily underestimated under capitalism. Capitalism believes that humans are lazy and selfish and that the only way for human survival is to stimulate with material wealth.

However this is wrong. Think of the millions of volunteers who work without any gain. Or the millions of people who consciously choose jobs to which serve mankind, rather then their own purse. Obviously for them serving mankind plays a bigger role then material wealth.

This myth of the lazy worker can be explained, because capitalism delivers a boring monotone life. To escape that reality drugs, alchohol and even tv is used.

[leftist resistance]

I think greed is,commonly expressed in the form of power and/or money.
BTW,not all humans are social and caring in toda's context.UNfortunately..But being social and caring is inane in homo sapiens

[refuse_resist]

I'd say money is one of the biggest causes of greedyness in this world. Because as long as you have people with lots of it there will always be people out there who don't have any.

[A_Devious_Mind]

you know what sucks.........its sucks that we cant do anything.....we cant change this fuck all world that we live in today......we cant stand up for what we belive in.....its hopeless.....were just a bunch of fucking cowards who whine bout everything.....dont you think some action should be taken?....taken by us!

[Strange]

Money is clearly the root of Greed and Desire.

Both Greed and Desire cause people to do things that are cruel and evil.

So of course I agree with you.

And im sure quite a few people here do aswell

Without capital life as we know it would be more civilized.

[antiraf]

no mister RAF is :P :P :P

[MiniOswald]

you know what sucks.........its sucks that we cant do anything.....we cant change this fuck all world that we live in today......we cant stand up for what we belive in.....its hopeless.....were just a bunch of fucking cowards who whine bout everything.....dont you think some action should be taken?....taken by us!

A good number of people here are taking action.

[Essential Insignificance]

Money is clearly the root of Greed and Desire.

Money, as such, in terms of "expendable" capital -- either materializing in the appearance of coins/paper notes or electronic credit -- is the universal expression of value, which enables easier, cleaner and limitless circulation and passage.

The simplest form of the exchange-relation that turns a simple use-value into a commodity is:

Amount X of commodity A = (is worth, exchanges for) amount Y of B

But even this, is an abstraction from the more realistic case in which the exchange-value of commodity A is expressed in terms of a number of other commodities, indeed and inestimable number of other commodities:

X of A = Y of commodity B
Z of commodity C
W of commodity D

And so on!

However, this way of expressing the value of A is inadequate to the needs of society which more of less generally produces its use-values as commodities, for there is no simple general standard in terms of which the values of all commodities may be expressed.

Such a general equivalent is arrived at just by reversing the above equation: then the indefinite list of commodities B, C, D....... and so on -- express their values in terms of A. The commodity A is thus, singled out as being money. So, according to Marx's theory of money the latter is fundamentally just a commonplace commodity which functions in a different way from additional commodities insofar as these express their value in it. But money is able to function thus only because it has value as the representation of a certain amount of "abstract labor" -- just like any other commodity.

Now as you can see, money is only a form of value expression. So rather, if I should be so frivolous to "label" something as the root of all "Greed & Desire": instead of money -- it is fashioned by the production and exchange of private property.

Let us not forget the social aspect of our mindless, bombastic, and in a sense mechanical consumer driven society; where you are "classified" by what you own, look, or have... a lot of our self-indulgence and desire, perhaps stems from the realization, that we are but perfunctory beasts of monotonous labor... whose sole purpose and function in the society we find ourselves in: is to produce profit for the ruling class. As we look at ourselves in this fashion, we try rigorously, to move beyond the stage of melancholy and sort thought this by saturating, in an insatiable manner, ourselves with products that we don't need or even like, to try and define ourselves, in manner that is compatible and approved by the ruling class messengers, and by now, other "species-beings".

My guess is that most people just want to be accepted.


Both Greed and Desire cause people to do things that are cruel and evil.

Sometimes!


And im sure quite a few people here do aswell
I seriously doubt it!


Without capital life as we know it would be more civilized.

Historically, the evidence signifies otherwise.

The slow transition from feudalism to capitalism, in Europe, revolutionized the material basis of society, which, in due course caused a substantial transformation, in the super-structural arenas of morality, politics, law, etc.

Admittedly, the development wasn't all that great, in relation to human civilization; but, it definitely made things a lot better.

[Djehuti]

No, money is not the root of all evil. Money is just a practical way to make it easier to trade. Money in the way we use it today is quite new really. Wage labour was not very common until the rise of capitalism a few centuries ago. Any way, money is not the root of all evil, thats idealistic. Communism will bring the end to money however, or rather it will bring the end to wage labour, surplus value, and production of commodities, and that will make money superfluous.

[Vallegrande]

Money is evil when it is based on profits! That's a fact.

"Big money pullin' on invisible strings
gettin' into everything
so deep... its hard to believe
its in the food and the water and the air you breath
and the chemistry, the bio-tech
the banker with the bottomless check
the corporations and the CEO's
and the bottom line is the profit grows
the money talks, you dont talk back
they don't like it when you act like that." - Jimmy Page

[between]

money is not evil .people who use it for power are. if monney was water they will use water. since money and oil make one, oil is, but since monney is use to trade oil than money is ,but since power needs monney and oil brings monney ,then the real evil is the one who wants power,thus greed and human are the real evil

[Vallegrande]

True, it is the people behind the money. I would just say that money has power enough to corrupt, though it is not evil in itself. I just can't wait to see when money has no value in the future.

[A_Devious_Mind]

pffft. No, humans arent evil....its money and those capitalist motherfuckes who make humans evil and ignorant.........its money thats responsible for all the bullshit thats been happenin around...there has to be a better mode of exchange.

[Essential Insignificance]

Objectively -- Vallegrande, between, and A_Devious_Mind -- money, affluent individuals, or groups aren't "evil" -- that's simply nonsense -- instead its the fact that our society is based on private property.

Money is only a "necessary" expression of trade and exchange.

[A_Devious_Mind]

pfft. nobody is born evil...its situations that make them do certain things and usually the reason is poverty...and money isnt the only medium of exchange, there has to be a better way

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Why search a "better" way of exchanging goods?

And better in what perspective?

Why not abolish money?

[T_SP]

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but I'll throw my bit in!
It is the misuse of money that can be a problem not money its self afterall it is just paper and metal. :D

[Latifa]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Nov 27 2004, 11:19 PM
To escape that reality drugs, alchohol and even tv is used.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm a heavy cocaine user, but I'd never watch TV!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Democritus]

you know what sucks.........its sucks that we cant do anything.....we cant change this fuck all world that we live in today......we cant stand up for what we belive in.....its hopeless.....were just a bunch of fucking cowards who whine bout everything.....dont you think some action should be taken?....taken by us!

First time on board, one of the members of our organization pasted me link to show me others are thinking "right". (well, were i guess, as this thread is really old):)

Before I explain "what can be done", let me just say that people posting "money is NOT the root of evil" are just confusing the issue with a play on semantics.

Ok, lets call out the real root then... unbridled selfish competition versus shared community assets and resources. The "root" is that people are rewarded (through money and wealth accumulation) regardless of whether their actions are good for overall humanity. In fact the exact opposite happens, greed and selfishness are rewarded on a global scale. The better I keep my resources hoarded, the "better" off I am. This is what got us to this point in our social evolution, and some systems have been an improvement over old, however the "root" has not changed.

Also, while the few Lord over the poorer, the poorer are just as guilty at having he same base attitude. Which is why revolutions do not work in my view, they do not change "the root" of what people are living for. In our current society you live for the reason of accumulating wealth or you pay dire consequences for your family, your ability to remain a "free" person, etc.

Ok, ok. So what can be done? Dropping out, revolution, passive resistance are not going to work at this point to drastically change things.

In our groups view, the current thread of social evolution is doomed and needs to be forked. This means a new way of doing things. However, such a "new way" is not going to have global impact unless it is a viable option.

The secret is putting your actions where your heart and mouth is. :)
Our plan is to use the power of shared accumulated wealth to achieve an "umbrella" for protection against regular society norms.

How does this work? We have started a LEGAL Corporate identity. The plan is "external" capitalism for the community members, and internally - sharing. This can be done, because of the current legal, political and economic structures. There is extreme validity when you have ONE EQUAL share of the corporation. There is no "layering", or hierarchy when it comes to an equal sharing of the global net resources.

Currently we are a dozen in number, however, with the right business plans, the ability to keep focused that we are NOT a business, this can grow to accumulate many,many more people. Hopefully, with enough time and wealth accumulation we can present an option B to quite a few people who are ready for it.
Right now this is internet based, however there are plans to take into into "business parks" or "community centers".

The individual has almost no power in our society unless that individual represents a huge amount of wealth. With this, some of our frustrations can be relieved and we can start converting Economic power into direct Social change through providing a "shield" to our members, where they are not concerned about coming up with the 1000 a month rent, etc.

It is hard to work on a "new way" while you have to work 50-70hrs to feed you and your families faces. With our model, you are immersed in social change at all times, in fact the ammount of time spent "making capital" for the group will be drastically reduced, and we are looking at highly computerized, automated ways to earn income to further reduce the ammount of work capital each person has to give to free up time spent on building a new structure and learning how to live in a sharing , community- monkey-sphere based society of cellular groups
:)

demo-

[chegitz guevara]

Comrades! I am willing to help you out. Please send me all your money so you can purify yourself from evil. I'm willing to sacrifice myself for your purity!

[Democritus]

Comrades! I am willing to help you out. Please send me all your money so you can purify yourself from evil. I'm willing to sacrifice myself for your purity!

It is that kind of thing that just does not help. We are not asking for money. Just in case you directed that at me. Reread my post, and if you wish to have discourse, then please direct any questions or criticism in a form that I can respond to.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I burnt my boxers because they had EVIL dollar signs on them.
All these ghosts came out of the flames, either they were money demons or asshole demons.

make your call.

[Democritus]

I burnt my boxers because they had EVIL dollar signs on them.
All these ghosts came out of the flames, either they were money demons or asshole demons.

make your call.

funniest damn thing I have seen all week. (i should get out more).

I am going with the butt-demons.

Jokes aside, what I said above is serious. There area good majority of people who know the reasons why people in society live for is just stupid. However, no one has a PRACTICAL plan. We think we do, as someone else said - anarchism will be accomplished by communes and collectives. This is a collective that is positioning itself with the strongest legal and political structure it can. The Corporation is where the power lays, and the key to changing and ultimately destroying this empty existence is through that LEGAL structure.

demo-

[Dimentio]

One link: www.technocracynet.eu

[Democritus]

One link:

Yeah, I had seen that before. It is a good architecture i do believe, and I can forsee a day when direct economic action is combined with efforts such as theirs.

The thing is, that without having a common unity- a common umbrella, it is not going to work. IMO

demo-

[Democritus]

Also, on the site linked, they discuss Holons. This is not a bad idea and runs closely with our monkey-sphere cellular system.

However, I contend that without an common unity and equality of shared resources and means of housing, feeding, etc, it cannot fully succeed. I could be completely wrong of course- and I fully applaud what they are attempting. And, our group does not need to be "the controller". If something like this site utilized a pragmatic plan to achieve fully what they are for, then I would have no problems becoming them. However, at this point in time to us, it seems like there are 10k groups out there with good ideas, but yet no common unity. With our structure we weed out those not serious. If you are serious, then you will throw down next to us and put your futures on the line for what you know is a better way of structuring human social interactions on a community and global scale. That can only come from a full commitment. If you are reliant on a system to provide for you, you have a lot more invested then just a "another good idea" website. However, this can only be done if there is guaranteed equality. Through what we propose, someone joining would have the full legal protections of the current systems. If you have one equal share you have one equal share.

demo-