A noob question probably.

[The Dead Guevara]

I'm a little confused with something. I read on a topic that marxism opposed leninism ideals somehow, but I've heard of "marxist-leninist" society, so what does Marxism and Leninism really means and why are they opposed yet can be united?

[Zingu]

Think of it like this, a political tree, Marxism is the roots, then the branches of it sprout off in varying idealogies, Marxism-Leninism, Humanitarian Marxism, Maoism, Trotskyism, ect.

All those beliefs have Marxist grounds on the terms of Historical and Dialectical Materialist theory, but their individual beliefs on how the revolution is carried out can be completely different.

[The Dead Guevara]

Hmm...ok thanks. I think I'm beginning to get it. Plus I read another topic with the Marx Manifesto...

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 06:10 AM
Think of it like this, a political tree, Marxism is the roots, then the branches of it sprout off in varying idealogies, Marxism-Leninism, Humanitarian Marxism, Maoism, Trotskyism, ect.
Indeed; and Marxism itself is a branch of the larger socialist tree. Here's a simple diagram to show you what I mean (but keep in mind that this is still incomplete; there are many smaller branches that are not represented in it):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/EdricO/socialisttree.gif

Note: I use the word "socialism" in this diagram with the meaning of "socialist ideologies and philosophies". The term "socialism" may also be used to refer to a specific socio-economic system, as you well know.

[Djehuti]

Nice tree! A found another that is all about "libertarian marxism".
Its quite messy really, but anyway:

http://www.endpage.com/Archives/Subversive_Texts/Wright_C/Tendency_Map.jpg

And som explainations:
http://www.endpage.com/Archives/Subversive...cy_Text831.html (http://www.endpage.com/Archives/Subversive_Texts/Wright_C/Tendency_Text831.html)

[Galatian 6:2]

What's the difference b/n democratic socialism and social democracy

[Djehuti]

Iam not sure, but I think that it is almost the same thing, but...
Since social democracy has grown more and more right wing over the years, and even officially abandoned socialism, the more left wing elements in the social democratic parties and their youth organizations have started to call them self democratic socialists, to mark them self as more classic social democrats instead of the new social democrats who have turned social liberal.

[Subversive Pessimist]

Democrat socialists want socialism through elections, reforms etc., while social democrats are rightwing and wants "capitalism with a human face".

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by The Dead [email protected] 26 2004, 03:57 AM
I read on a topic that marxism opposed leninism ideals somehow, but I've heard of "marxist-leninist" society,
It's all about interpretation. Some people interpret Marx in one way and others interpret him in another way.

There are some guiding principles which anarchists, Libertarian Marxists and Leninists agree on. That's Marx's critique of Capitalism and its effects on humans. Also the development of history is generally accepted by anarchists, lib marxists and leninists alike.

The problem comes with what Marx meant by "dictatorship of the proletariat." Lenin developed the vangaurd theory, and interpreted Marx to mean that the dictatorship of the proletariat is a strong state, led by intellectuals (those who understand Marxism) and used to destroy capitalism and get all the power in society into the hands of the state so that it can direct things within society and move towards communism.

Libertarian Marxists reject that interpretation and take other parts of what Marx said to be true. Things like "the act of the working class should be by the working class," meaning that it should be the workers who direct the revolution and not "intellectuals." Libertarian Marxists and anarchist communists also recognise that Marx never actually talked about a vangaurd, or about an intellectual class leading the revolution.

However, Libertarian Marxists believe in certain aspects of authority and hierarchy, at which point anarchist communists/libertarian communists move away. Anarchists reject hierarchy and authority on principle as things which damage the revolution...


what does Marxism and Leninism really means and why are they opposed yet can be united?

To recap, Marxism is the idea that the working class, who are exploited by the ruling class in a system called capitalism, have the power and justification to take control of society and create communism. Marx advocated that there had to be a two stage event to creating communism. The first stage, known as socialism (or the dictatorship of the proletariat) and then the withering away of socialism so you are left with communism.

Leninism is the "follow" on from Marxism which advocates a centralised leadership of "class" conscious revolutionaries who lead the dictatorship of the proletariat to help it wither away. It is known as the vangaurd theory.

There are other aspects of Leninism, such as the idea that imperialism is the final stage of capitalism and that Marxism then can be applied to underdeveloped countries and not just countries which have a working class. Another idea that libertarian Marxists disagree on.

You could read:

Libertarian Marxism - Daniel Guerin (http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libmarx.html)