The Ukraine?

[T_SP]

Are we gonna see some sorta of revoultion there? 200,000 people in protest against Viktor Yanukovych they must be pretty pissed and they claim the vote was rigged!

Still is Viktor Yushchenko the leader the country really needs???

What d'yall think?

[komon]

it won't be a revolution from the people. people are beeing(from both side) used and what you see too .
poutin is going to win .don't ask me to explain it .in a long term he will win.

[Intifada]

Both Yanukovych and Yushchenko seem like bastards.

[monkeydust]

There is talk of "civil war" in the press, though I expect that Yanukovych will concede defeat or call a re-election before there's serious trouble.

[komon]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 08:20 PM
There is talk of "civil war" in the press, though I expect that Yanukovych will concede defeat or call a re-election before there's serious trouble.
propaganda about revolution or civil war .......to make it(civil war). not freedom for people by people...not yet

[commiecrusader]

If only we could motivate people in the cause of communism to the same extent as they have over pro-Russian/Western leaders...

Personally, I'd rather the pro-Russian one won, at least then there will still be another country to oppose U.$. policies.

[Dio]

I was originally born in Ukraine. Corruption reigns supreme there, we have a lot of terrorists in there, largest country with trafficing and prostitution. A rigged vote is the least of their problems, and i do not know of any opposition movements in Ukraine. So that area will get fucked.

[Frederick_Engles]

Neither of them seem to be genuinly for the people, so I hope the pro-Russian one ones, for the reasons stated above, to appose US policies

[The Feral Underclass]

It's extremly interesting and very exciting. I am trying to find news that from anarchists and marxists alike about what is going on, but I can't find anything.

If someone has any news please post it.

[FriedFrog]

Yer, its an interesting situation. Dont know if anyone's tried it yet, but the BBC webiste is quite a good website for keeping up with things. Obviously its gonna be a bit biased, but it's the most informative i know of.

BBC Story on the Ukraine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4042979.stm)

Hope it's of some use

[cubist]

i am quite concerned,

www.independent.co.uk
(good articles today about it)
in the interest of the ukrainian people Viktor Yushchenko should assume comand,

, if this fraudulent election is overlooked and isn't stopped now it may never be trusted by the working class voters which will ensure the degredation of there circumstances rather than offering a glimer of hope.



200,000 people protesting in -4 degrees C, that is awesome.



I simply don't trust putins politics, and wouldn't trust anyone he advocates.

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 10:58 PM
i am quite concerned,

www.independent.co.uk
(good articles today about it)
in the interest of the ukrainian people Viktor Yushchenko should assume comand,

, if this fraudulent election is overlooked and isn't stopped now it may never be trusted by the working class voters which will ensure the degredation of there circumstances rather than offering a glimer of hope.



200,000 people protesting in -4 degrees C, that is awesome.



I simply don't trust putins politics, and wouldn't trust anyone he advocates.
I agree, it should be the people's will who emerges victorious. The vast majority seem to want Yushchenko to win. Indeed he is pro-western and pro-market, but you can't argue with the majority of the population.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by AC-[email protected] 26 2004, 01:32 AM
I agree, it should be the people's will who emerges victorious. The vast majority seem to want Yushchenko to win. Indeed he is pro-western and pro-market, but you can't argue with the majority of the population.
The vast majority of the people are sitting quietly in their homes. Yushchenko has the support of about 50% of Ukrainians (the election was really very close, without taking the rigging into account), but the people currently on the streets are only a small minority of those 50%.

Overall, the situation looks like this:

Yanukovych is a neoliberal capitalist who represents the interests of the Russian bourgeoisie.
Yushchenko is a neoliberal capitalist who represents the interests of the Western bourgeoisie.

Taking sides in this conflict is as futile as taking sides in WW1. It's all about capitalists fighting each other.

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by Edric O+Nov 26 2004, 12:08 AM--> (Edric O @ Nov 26 2004, 12:08 AM)
AC-[email protected] 26 2004, 01:32 AM
I agree, it should be the people's will who emerges victorious. The vast majority seem to want Yushchenko to win. Indeed he is pro-western and pro-market, but you can't argue with the majority of the population.
The vast majority of the people are sitting quietly in their homes. Yushchenko has the support of about 50% of Ukrainians (the election was really very close, without taking the rigging into account), but the people currently on the streets are only a small minority of those 50%.

Overall, the situation looks like this:

Yanukovych is a neoliberal capitalist who represents the interests of the Russian bourgeoisie.
Yushchenko is a neoliberal capitalist who represents the interests of the Western bourgeoisie.

Taking sides in this conflict is as futile as taking sides in WW1. It's all about capitalists fighting each other. [/b]
It's not entirely that simple. It seems the Ukranian working class are willing to partipate in a general strike to help Yushchenko.

[Wiesty]

the last thing we need there is more soviet control, thats why their in poverty now.
and i thought kuchma was their current president?

[RedAnarchist]

He is, but he must be retiring or something. Maybe they can only haev a limited time as President.

Its quite like the American presidency - a popularity contest rather than an actual election.

[cubist]

for the Ukranians, the western bourgoise is a better choice,

The EU and the UN will do more if the government is on side

[komon]

mankind always had to choose /or be submit to one choice between two devil.
which one is minder bad,which one is better than bad......
really this is not a choice and will never be


.....go people go ,may the mistakes be yours. and not from a power seeker,arrivist ,egoambitious...... :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

[bolshevik butcher]

i don't want 2 c ukraine being used by the RTussians again. at least in Europe it could have a voice of it's own. Yushevko isn't paticularaly pro-american anyway.

[bolshevik butcher]

*Russians

[komon]

Yushevko isn't paticularaly pro-american anyway.

bielieve me europeans are.with hypocrisy as big mouth

[T_SP]

The general consensus from the left is that both of them are pro privitisation which will inevitably be bad for the Ukranis. There is no alternative in Ukraine. I believe what is needed is a mass workers party to oppose both of these Cappie idiots. On the one hand you have a pro westerner who wants to implement western capitalism and the other you have a pro Russian Capitalist. It seems it's a lose, lose situation.

[h&s]

The thing is that the left could benefit the left greatly. This dispute has moblised the people greatly, but if they realise that both candidates are essentially the same, who knows what could happen? This is a great chance for agitation.

[T_SP]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 27 2004, 11:24 AM
The thing is that the left could benefit the left greatly. This dispute has moblised the people greatly, but if they realise that both candidates are essentially the same, who knows what could happen? This is a great chance for agitation.
The problem is h&s is that the Marxist groups and organisations ( I know we have CWI members out there) are a minority and will have there work cut out for them when they try to intervene.

A civil war is possible but that would be a nightmare, East Versus West with the Russians on one side and the Europeans on the other!!! Holy crap! :blink:

[h&s]

A civil war is possible but that would be a nightmare, East Versus West with the Russians on one side and the Europeans on the other!!! Holy crap!
Don't you just love imperialism? :rolleyes:
After all, its political imperialism from the RF and EU that is causing all of this.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 25 2004, 08:00 PM
It's extremly interesting and very exciting. I am trying to find news that from anarchists and marxists alike about what is going on, but I can't find anything.

If someone has any news please post it.
Yes - Well i'm getting everything live via EuroNews. I'll try to post what is going on...

[RedAnarchist]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4048965.stm


There is talk of secession by the eastern regions, which are pro-Yanukovych.

[commiecrusader]

Its not as simple as all the workers supporting the pro-West bloke. Its the office workers and stuff like that who support him. The miners and 'real' industrial workers favour the pro-Russian man.

[__ca va?]

I don't know if there is a capitalist fight behind all of this. What I think is that the EU simply doesn't want Ukraine to be annexed by Russia. It could happen if the Ukarainian governmnet was too muscovite. The same thing is happening with Belarus. Both the US and the EU want to prevent a new Soviet Union from emerging. In my opinion this is why the Baltic states were so easily accepted in the NATO and in th EU too.

[h&s]

A meeting in the east of the country - power base of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych - is to discuss autonomy....
...The party of Mr Yanukovych says the meeting, in the eastern city of Severodonetsk, brings together 17 out of 25 regions, and will consider a proposal to create their own separate financial and economic structures.
Bloody hell, there's now talk of the country actually splitting over this issue. If this doesn't get sorted soon, I agree with those who say it will lead to a civil war.


Both the US and the EU want to prevent a new Soviet Union from emerging.
Thats the thing - Putin has made no secret of his liking for the soviet union sying that its breakup, "was a tragedy for Russia." It is widely rumoured in the West that he is intending to create an economic union taking orders from Moscow, which the US and EU are so against. Yanukovych is for further integration with Russia, promising its Russian-speaking population dual nationality, which is why the US and €U are against him. They would probably even speak out against him even if he was fairly elected.
Anyways, we'll just have to wait for the ruling of the Supreme Court in Ukraine to see what happens. If they rule in favour of Yanukovych, some sort of violence will break out.

[h&s]

Just look how cleanly divided the country is.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40563000/gif/_40563403_ukraine_election2_map416.gif

[bolshevik butcher]

the emergence of a new ussr will not be good. HandS u don't seriously mean all power to the soviets do you?

[h&s]

Umm..yes...I want to sell out to the non-existant USSR...yeah...
No, it is just a phrase from the early days of the USSR calling for all state power to be de-centralised into workers run local councils. These local councils are called soviets.
(I'm not saying I support the early USSR either, I'm just using a phrase from it).

[RedAnarchist]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13256854,00.html


Eastern Europe, historically, has been quite an unstable region. Any Ukrainian civil war resulting from this crisi could tip the region over the edge. It might even cause a new war akin to that of the Balkan War of the 1990's.

[__ca va?]

Eastern Europe, historically, has been quite an unstable region. Any Ukrainian civil war resulting from this crisi could tip the region over the edge. It might even cause a new war akin to that of the Balkan War of the 1990's.

A "new crisis"... This is nonsense. Why would a Ukrainian civil war result in chaos in all Eastern Europe? The Balkan crisis had ethnical reasons, mainly in one country, the confict didn't spread to nearby countries. What a civil war in U. would cause is a rush of refugees and economic crisis in Ukraine. Bu8t I don't think it would cause anythng else.

[RedAnarchist]

Just a theory as to what could happen. I dunno what will happen.

[Maynard]

Are we gonna see some sorta of revoultion there?
If something does occur, it won't be a revolution in a conventional sense, it'll be much like what happened in Georgia last year, which is known as the "Revolution of Roses". With the opposition having the support of most western nations, it will be a revolution in the name of neo- liberal capitalism.


Still is Viktor Yushchenko the leader the country really needs???
No. There is no reason to support him or Yanukovych.


Personally, I'd rather the pro-Russian one won, at least then there will still be another country to oppose U.$. policies.

Russia, of course, supports US foriegn policy mostly as well. Vladamir Putin was glad that George W Bush won re-election. Ukraine, while Yanukovych was Prime Minister provided overflight permission to US and Coalition aircraft and airlift to Coalition forces, with them also having 1,650 troops in Iraq. Yanukovych supports the "War on terror" and the war against Iraq.


the last thing we need there is more soviet control, thats why their in poverty now.
and i thought kuchma was their current president?
Soviet Control ? Huh ? Its economic growth rate was 9.4 % last year anyway. Kuchma was president but I believe that the presidents are allowed two five year terms.


The thing is that the left could benefit the left greatly. This dispute has moblised the people greatly, but if they realise that both candidates are essentially the same, who knows what could happen?
I don't think anything will happen, if they were going to realize this, they would have done it before now. Both sides want their man to win and that is it. The left is nothing but a spectator in this.


What I think is that the EU simply doesn't want Ukraine to be annexed by Russia. It could happen if the Ukarainian governmnet was too muscovite. The same thing is happening with Belarus. Both the US and the EU want to prevent a new Soviet Union from emerging.
I don't think that is a concern for the EU or the United State. The Soviet Union is not coming back, Ukraine will not be annexed either, it would be too problematic. It is much easier for Russia to support, financially, morally, otherwise any government in neighbouring countries which will most benefit them. The EU will do the same. It is much easier that way, then to have direct control


Putin has made no secret of his liking for the soviet union sying that its breakup, "was a tragedy for Russia."
Is there any source for that? I have never seen it.

I doubt their will be a civil war. I think most likely their will be another election in a couple of weeks. It is hard to see either side accepting the results if their man loses though.

[Dyst]

Of those two candidates, I think Viktor is the best.

[h&s]

:lol:

[Skeptic]

Comrades tell me what you think of this article: --Skeptic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Ian Traynor
Friday November 26, 2004
The Guardian

With their websites and stickers, their pranks and slogans aimed at banishing widespread fear of a corrupt regime, the democracy guerrillas of the Ukrainian Pora youth movement have already notched up a famous victory - whatever the outcome of the dangerous stand-off in Kiev.
Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.

Ten months after the success in Belgrade, the US ambassador in Minsk, Michael Kozak, a veteran of similar operations in central America, notably in Nicaragua, organised a near identical campaign to try to defeat the Belarus hardman, Alexander Lukashenko.

That one failed. "There will be no Kostunica in Belarus," the Belarus president declared, referring to the victory in Belgrade.

But experience gained in Serbia, Georgia and Belarus has been invaluable in plotting to beat the regime of Leonid Kuchma in Kiev.
The operation - engineering democracy through the ballot box and civil disobedience - is now so slick that the methods have matured into a template for winning other people's elections.

In the centre of Belgrade, there is a dingy office staffed by computer-literate youngsters who call themselves the Centre for Non-violent Resistance. If you want to know how to beat a regime that controls the mass media, the judges, the courts, the security apparatus and the voting stations, the young Belgrade activists are for hire.

They emerged from the anti-Milosevic student movement, Otpor, meaning resistance. The catchy, single-word branding is important. In Georgia last year, the parallel student movement was Khmara. In Belarus, it was Zubr. In Ukraine, it is Pora, meaning high time. Otpor also had a potent, simple slogan that appeared everywhere in Serbia in 2000 - the two words "gotov je", meaning "he's finished", a reference to Milosevic. A logo of a black-and-white clenched fist completed the masterful marketing.

In Ukraine, the equivalent is a ticking clock, also signalling that the Kuchma regime's days are numbered.

Stickers, spray paint and websites are the young activists' weapons. Irony and street comedy mocking the regime have been hugely successful in puncturing public fear and enraging the powerful.

Last year, before becoming president in Georgia, the US-educated Mr Saakashvili travelled from Tbilisi to Belgrade to be coached in the techniques of mass defiance. In Belarus, the US embassy organised the dispatch of young opposition leaders to the Baltic, where they met up with Serbs travelling from Belgrade. In Serbia's case, given the hostile environment in Belgrade, the Americans organised the overthrow from neighbouring Hungary - Budapest and Szeged.

In recent weeks, several Serbs travelled to the Ukraine. Indeed, one of the leaders from Belgrade, Aleksandar Maric, was turned away at the border.

The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.

US pollsters and professional consultants are hired to organise focus groups and use psephological data to plot strategy.

The usually fractious oppositions have to be united behind a single candidate if there is to be any chance of unseating the regime. That leader is selected on pragmatic and objective grounds, even if he or she is anti-American.

In Serbia, US pollsters Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates discovered that the assassinated pro-western opposition leader, Zoran Djindjic, was reviled at home and had no chance of beating Milosevic fairly in an election. He was persuaded to take a back seat to the anti-western Vojislav Kostunica, who is now Serbian prime minister.

In Belarus, US officials ordered opposition parties to unite behind the dour, elderly trade unionist, Vladimir Goncharik, because he appealed to much of the Lukashenko constituency.

Officially, the US government spent $41m (£21.7m) organising and funding the year-long operation to get rid of Milosevic from October 1999. In Ukraine, the figure is said to be around $14m.

Apart from the student movement and the united opposition, the other key element in the democracy template is what is known as the "parallel vote tabulation", a counter to the election-rigging tricks beloved of disreputable regimes.

There are professional outside election monitors from bodies such as the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, but the Ukrainian poll, like its predecessors, also featured thousands of local election monitors trained and paid by western groups.

Freedom House and the Democratic party's NDI helped fund and organise the "largest civil regional election monitoring effort" in Ukraine, involving more than 1,000 trained observers. They also organised exit polls. On Sunday night those polls gave Mr Yushchenko an 11-point lead and set the agenda for much of what has followed.

The exit polls are seen as critical because they seize the initiative in the propaganda battle with the regime, invariably appearing first, receiving wide media coverage and putting the onus on the authorities to respond.

The final stage in the US template concerns how to react when the incumbent tries to steal a lost election.

In Belarus, President Lukashenko won, so the response was minimal. In Belgrade, Tbilisi, and now Kiev, where the authorities initially tried to cling to power, the advice was to stay cool but determined and to organise mass displays of civil disobedience, which must remain peaceful but risk provoking the regime into violent suppression.

If the events in Kiev vindicate the US in its strategies for helping other people win elections and take power from anti-democratic regimes, it is certain to try to repeat the exercise elsewhere in the post-Soviet world.

The places to watch are Moldova and the authoritarian countries of central Asia.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,...1360236,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360236,00.html)

[duk]

in this case im with the pro russia president! we dont need more presidents who will serve usa! we dont need more presidents who will send troops 2 iraq... anyway i have a question: why there is people who have flags where we can find the sign of hammel and sickle in blue and yellow?! are the communists in ukrain with the pro eu president??

[__ca va?]

This article seems to be a little bit of a cospiracy theory to me. I consider it natural that when an unliked president riggs an election, unsatisfied people go on the streets to demonstrate. In my opinion there is no need for American organizations to get people together in these cases. And anyway, the EU is not bad! It helps the economy, the agriculture and social welfare! It is understandable that a real communist (or reformist) party's leader is pro EU. And the EU is not an ally of the US, it cooperates with the US, but it is not a 'vassal'. And Serbia, Belarus, Ukraine all want to be a part of the EU and not America, so I don't know why would it be logical for America to help them to get more democratic.

[Subversive Pessimist]

The last thing we need there is more soviet control, thats why their in poverty now.


I thought the Soviet Union went down...

[bolshevik butcher]

ca va- I agree, the 2nd biggest group in the EU palriment is socialist.

[Subversive Pessimist]

Do you have any documentation on that, Clenched Fist?

[refuse_resist]

In the end it doesn't matter which one of those guys in office because they will both be the puppets of the bourgeois and be one of the people who exploit the Ukrainian workers. I really wish they would see this, but it seems a lot of them favor the guy who wants Ukraine to become part of NATO and the EU.

[h&s]

I heard yesterday that the two Victors have agreed to have a re-election. Is this true?
Anyway if t is it will only temporarily relieve the problem. The East and West will remain split oer this issue.

[h&s]

Oh, I've found an aricle:

KIEV, Ukraine - Ukraine appears to be headed toward holding a new election under an agreement announced Wednesday night to adopt a sweeping reorganization of political power.


Source (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/10319468.htm?1c)

[Skeptic]

Here is an interesting article on Western spin and the Ukraine elections from aljazeera.

Ukraine elections betray Western bias
By Lawrence Smallman

Wednesday 01 December 2004, 7:55 Makka Time, 4:55 GMT


Viktor Yushchenko: Former PM and champion of the West

Western media are misrepresenting the Ukrainian election crisis as a conflict between the forces of democracy and dictatorship, according to numerous political analysts.

Without providing evidence that Viktor Yushchenko won the election, newspapers and pundits in the US and Europe all but insist that the West's opposition candidate has been robbed of the presidency.

Although huge rallies in support of pro-Russian presidential candidate and Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich barely make it to television screens, audiences around the Western world have probably all seen the laser-lit, plasma-screened Yushchenko rock concerts.

Speaking to Aljazeera.net on Tuesday, international relations expert Bulent Gokay, a senior researcher at Keele University in Britain, pointed out that a worryingly obvious fact is being overlooked.

"The two candidates, both Prime Minister Vickor Yanukovich and Yushchenko, have their roots in the same anti-democratic ruling elite which divided the wealth of the country after the collapse of the Soviet Union."

Geopolitics

Former US national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski noted in his 1997 book, The Grand Chessboard, that neither the West nor Russia can afford to lose Ukraine to its strategic and economic adversary.

So far from being a struggle between the forces of democracy and authoritarianism, the electoral battle being fought in Ukraine boils down to control of an important gas transit system next to strategic Caspian Sea oil and gas deposits, says Gokay.


"On the one hand Putin's Russia wants to pull Ukraine into a closer sphere of influence ... through various political, economic and military agreements - most notably through the giant gas monopoly Gazprom and UES.

"At the same time, the US and Western Europe are increasingly pursuing aggressively militarised polices since the end of the Cold War.

"Ukraine is a member of the GUUAM - a loose Nato funded alliance essentially dominated by Anglo-American oil interests, ultimately aiming to exclude Russia from the Caspian Sea."

Such powerful interests have meant that Yushchenko has leapt from being a boring banker and opposition leader to a heroic leader of a democratic struggle.

No Angel

The late Kiev-based analyst Professor James Mace was also taken aback by the growing ferocity of media support for Yushchenko - mysteriously promoted in the West as the cure for autocracy in the former Soviet republic.

"I cannot say that Viktor Yushchenko is above reproach as a political mastermind. He has a tendency to do things off the cuff ... a reputation for inflexibility.

He is "not aware that compromise is sometimes the soul of governance. There are a number of people whom I know have either left his campaign or are in despair because of these things", Mace added.


Moreover, while newspapers in the West report on Yanukovich's criminal record dating back to the 70s - none have reported on rumours that Yushchenko has a few much more recent skeletons in the closet.

Accused of stealing millions of dollars from the Central Bank, Yushchenko is alleged to have pressured the General Prosecutor to drop yet more charges against running-mate Yulia Tymoshenko for fraud and embezzlement.

Statistical truths

But if favourable coverage, pop music and young people demonstrating on your TV screens are not enough to convince a Western audience of Yushchenko's amiability, some contorted "election facts" may always prove useful.

The 96% turnout in the eastern Russian-speaking district of Donetsk, the home town of Yanukovich, is cited as a highly suspicious indicator of fraud, especially since - as has been reported repeatedly - his voters were "bussed in" to vote.

But equally enormous turnouts in areas which support Yushchenko have not received the same suspicion.

And whereas Yanukovich's final official score was 54%, the Western-backed president of Georgia, Mikhail Saakashvili, officially polled 96.24% of the vote in his country in January.

But the same media organisations who now report critically on the Ukrainian election welcomed January's election results in Georgia, saying that it "brought the country closer to meeting international standards".

Double-edged accusations

Focusing on one of many "hypocritical" tendencies in Western media coverage, Gokay condemned the fuss made about Russian President Putin's "interference" in the election campaign.

"The two candidates ... have their roots in the same anti-democratic ruling elite which divided the wealth of the country after the collapse of the Soviet Union"

Bulent Gokay, senior researcher, Keele University, Britain


"Putin visited the country twice before the elections. There is nothing exceptional in this. Russia and the Ukraine have long-standing links and a large section of the Ukrainian population is Russian-speaking.

"But the interference by the Western states is presented as normal and completely justified.

"This is totally hypocritical, particularly at a time when the US-led section of the Western world is getting ready for a 'democratic election' of a puppet regime in Iraq with a massive terror campaign against the civilian population," Gokay added.

The real players

But whether you back current Prime Minister Yanukovich or former premier Yushchenko for president, the real winners in Ukraine will be the small number of powerful interest groups that continue to maintain their grip over the political landscape and the economy.

Yushchenko running-mate Tymoshenko, for instance, was regularly described as an oligarch until she threw her support behind Yushchenko.

Now Reuters news agency describes her as a "firebrand deputy" and makes no mention of her conviction for fraud.

However, there are many other local players vying for power who have thrown their lot in with either East or West.

"This whole conflict ... is very much like a Cold War-style proxy confrontation between the Western and Russian interests," says Gokay.


"Behind the two camps of the presidential candidates lie the interests of the rival Ukrainian elite vision.

"Outgoing President Leonid Kuchma, followed a middle way, close to Moscow but also sending troops to Iraq - but it no longer remains possible to walk that tight-rope."

And if sheer Western political pressure and favourable reporting on Yushchenko results in new elections and a new president, at least half of Ukraine's population are going to ask whether they should dispute the result with a similar media campaign in the Russian Federation.

Ukrainian businessman Oleksii Leschenko - who refused to vote for either candidate - told Aljazeera.net on Wednesday that if Yanukovich is a "pro-Russian agent, then Yushchenko is open to equally serious charges of being pro-American".

Interest and compromise

"After all, Yushchenko is married to Kateryna Chumachenko - a former official with the US State Department, who refuses to give up her US citizenship," said Leschenko.

"Both the US and the EU have openly supported and financed Yushchenko and have, as on so many other occasions, attempted to engineer favourable leaderships by promoting civil disobedience.

"And nearly everyone knows that the so-called "pro-democracy" group Pora was created and financed by Washington - just like other American political groups set up in Georgia and Serbia.

"But nobody wants our country to end up in a similar situation to those places, so maybe both candidates should step down," Leschenko added.

And according to Interfax on Tuesday, Yanukovich has come to the exact same conclusion.

The disputed election-winner said "we need to overcome the crisis and for the sake of this I propose that neither Viktor Yushchenko nor I participate in the [new] election if the result of the vote will be declared falsified".

Yushchenko is yet to respond to the suggestion, and in the meantime the possibility of a civil war or partition of the country along ethnic and religious lines becomes ever more likely.


Aljazeera

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8CF...5E989034DFE.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8CF314BD-0BD9-4A59-89B6-95E989034DFE.htm)

[__ca va?]

In the end it doesn't matter which one of those guys in office because they will both be the puppets of the bourgeois and be one of the people who exploit the Ukrainian workers. I really wish they would see this, but it seems a lot of them favor the guy who wants Ukraine to become part of NATO and the EU.

It is funny how people consider the EU an exploiting and bad system though they don't know anything about it... The EU raises living standards as well as welfare in every member country. Of course everyone wants to be a part of it! And don't forget it were the people who chose to join in -almost- every case (maybe there were exceptions, when the parliament chose)! But the fact is that from Croatia to Ukraine every European country wants to be a member, except Switzerland and Norway, but these also have economical agreemants with it. So don't forget: the EU is good!!!

[h&s]

The EU raises living standards as well as welfare in every member country.
I wouldn't bet on that. The EU promotes privatisation in all its member countries. I think one of the conditions for the Eastern Block countries to join the EU was for them to allow mass privatisation, which lowers living standards. The EU is just an organisation for the Borgeoise of Europe to fix their taxes together to screw other countries they trade with.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:32 PM
Do you have any documentation on that, Clenched Fist?
It was on BBC news

[__ca va?]

The EU promotes privatisation in all its member countries. I think one of the conditions for the Eastern Block countries to join the EU was for them to allow mass privatisation, which lowers living standards.

Wasn't mass privatization allowed for them before joining the EU? The EU has not too much to do with privatization! In Hungary almost every sector in state ownership was sold right after the collapse of "socialism", and not now. On Sunday a referendum is held about privatization of the hospitals. The present state of healthacare is sad. Doctors receive a very low payment, they work too much because there is not enough of them. Hospitals look as if an air strike had hit them. Their equipment is old. The only way this could be solved is privatizing them!

And I think the EU is more the triumph of internationalism than a burgeoise dictature.

[h&s]

Doctors receive a very low payment, they work too much because there is not enough of them. Hospitals look as if an air strike had hit them. Their equipment is old. The only way this could be solved is privatizing them!

What are you doing on a left-wing discussion forum?

[__ca va?]

Hey man, I'm reformist! I know that state ownership doesn't solve anything. It doesn't make any difference if you are abused by the state or by the bourgeois!

[__ca va?]

Of course my point is not that people are abused anyway, so it doesn't make a difference. But giving better treatment to the people is common sense, and the government can't do that in the present situation. Privatization must be done only with regulations, so that people won't have to pay for being cured

[Latifa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 02:15 PM
Of those two candidates, I think Viktor is the best.
No way. Viktor is the man!! :lol:

[Wiesty]

i hope they imprison kuchma, then give him firing squad for siding with the russians, and messing thigns up in ukraine, the russians should keep there noses out of ukraine and let them rebuild from the events of the past.

[Osman Ghazi]

hope they imprison kuchma, then give him firing squad for siding with the russians, and messing thigns up in ukraine, the russians should keep there noses out of ukraine and let them rebuild from the events of the past.

But you have to take into consideration the fact that about 17% of the Ukrainian population speaks Russian as their first language, including Yanukovych. In Donetsk, the region Yanukovych is from, most people speak Russian as their first language.

Yushchanko, as far as I can tell, seems to be a violent Ukrainian nationalist. I think his response to the Donetsk autonomy referendum was "anyone advocating the separation of any territory of the Ukraine will be held criminally responsible."

In short, they are both dicks, but if you have to give in to one of them, I would prefer Yushchenko, because he at least desires the appearance of democracy. Also, he isn't 'pro-west' but rather 'pro-western europe'. Personally, i think that Russia doesn't have a chance of opposing the US, but the EU on the other hand...

If you are at all interested in the Russian plans for Ukraine should Yanukovych finally win, check out what they did to Belarus.

[Agent provocateur]

So Yushenko has been poisoned. His face looks really fucked up. Could be old KGB/CIA sort of shit.

[Commie Rat]

????
Yushenko has been poisioned ??????

who waht where when????

[leftist resistance]

:huh:
I'm not updated on the news

[Wiesty]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 7 2004, 08:15 PM
But you have to take into consideration the fact that about 17% of the Ukrainian population speaks Russian as their first language, including Yanukovych. In Donetsk, the region Yanukovych is from, most people speak Russian as their first language.


don't want to get into a fight here but
what does that have to do with politics, its because Russian is there second language. Just as Spanish is AMerica$ secound language, just as French is Canadas second language, dosent mean if Castro interfeared with American Politics (if such a thing could ever happen) that he would be good beacause he speaks spanish and whatever the percent of Americas Hispanic population do to.

i see your point on the democracy thing but im not quite getting the language.

all im saying is there still rebuilding from the fall of the ussr, going with russia could just screw them over again

[RedAnarchist]

Apparently his food was poisoned and he went to an Austrian clinic. If you see Yushchenko on the news, you see a man with a fairly ugly and deformed face. That is, according to him, the results of food poisoning.

Of course Yanukovych speaks Russian - his parents were immigrants from Belarus

[Agent provocateur]

Here's a link about alleged poisoning or is it clever use of makeup?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...in_041208070332 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1503&ncid=1503&e=19&u=/afp/20041208/ts_afp/ukraine_vote_opposition_health_britain_04120807033 2)


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6676009/

[RAT]

In the last US election close to fifty pecent of the populace chose Kerry, so should we have a revolution too? I think that this last election were fake.
The US is pushing the populace in Ukraine to rebel, because they don't like the Russian supported elected official. Who the hell the US think they are?
Also, we are on a site that uses the name of Che, he was a Marxist, and used the support of the Soviets. He fought against the Gringos Imperialist ( the US).
But it seems that many of you do not support communist ideas?

[RedAnarchist]

YUSHCHENKO TEST RESULTS

Disfigured Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko could today discover if he was poisoned.

An Austrian medical clinic is publishing the results of blood tests taken to try to isolate the causes of his mystery ailment.


Previously renowned for his handsome appearance, Mr Yushchenko's newly pockmarked complexion has startled observers.

His face is now swollen and partially paralysed and one of his eyes often tears up.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0%2C%2C...63135%2C00.html (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0%2C%2C30000-13263135%2C00.html)

This article shows him before his face became deformed. Something must have happened - he now looks about 30 years older.

[Agent provocateur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 02:12 AM
In the last US election close to fifty pecent of the populace chose Kerry, so should we have a revolution too? I think that this last election were fake.
The US is pushing the populace in Ukraine to rebel, because they don't like the Russian supported elected official. Who the hell the US think they are?
Also, we are on a site that uses the name of Che, he was a Marxist, and used the support of the Soviets. He fought against the Gringos Imperialist ( the US).
But it seems that many of you do not support communist ideas?
I'm sorry but that is not accurate. 31% of registered voters voted for Bush and 29% voted for Kerry. 40% did not bother to vote at all thinking the election was irrelevant to their lives and they have a point. There are roughly 200 million registerd voters in the U.S. The level of political alienation is very high in the U.S. I remember in 2000 I tried to get a friend of mine to vote and he just waived it off with a wave of the hand like it was something irksome to him and he does have a point.

[__ca va?]

The US is pushing the populace in Ukraine to rebel, because they don't like the Russian supported elected official. Who the hell the US think they are?
Also, we are on a site that uses the name of Che, he was a Marxist, and used the support of the Soviets. He fought against the Gringos Imperialist ( the US).
But it seems that many of you do not support communist ideas?

It's funny that so many people think the US is behind everything. Why don't you think the Ukrainian people can have their own opinion of their leaders? Is it so hard to imagine that they can revolt without being told to? I agree with them! I don't know what the US thinks it is (I've got ideas...), but I know the Ukrainians don't like a soviet-type dictator who'd rigged the elections.

[RedAnarchist]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1163708,00.html

Its been confirmed that Yushchenko was poisoned.

[jwijn]

At first I was a bit on the fence. One candidate (Yuschenko) was backed by the US and the other was backed by Russia. Both backers clearly only have their own self-interest in mind. It seemed as if there was going to be a deadlock both internally and internationally, as people realize that siding with one is also like siding with their backer.

However, after this poison expose, I cannot see how ANYONE would support the Russian candidate. Anyone who uses these Stalinist tactics should be eliminated from the race and put in jail.

CONSPIRACY THEORY TIME!

I just thought of this (just for kicks, not to be taken seriously):

What if the US posioned Yuschenko to make his supporters start a civil war?

[Agent provocateur]

He was posioned with dioxin which is derived from Agent Orange


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...shchenko_health (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041211/ap_on_re_eu/yushchenko_health)

[commiecrusader]

Is this a definite, conclusive proof he was poisoned, or is it likely to be disputed?

If Yanukovych and his team did poison Yushchenko, then I hope they get a good beating in the next election.

[RedAnarchist]

They know what type of dioxin it is - a key component of Agent Orange like someone mentioned earlier.


http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13265885,00.html

The poison fed to Ukrainian presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko has been identified as a key component of Agent Orange.

Blood tests said it was the most harmful known dioxin TCDD - tetrachlorodibenzoparadioxin.


The poison became infamous after being blamed for the range of illnesses suffered by US armed forces and villagers during the Vietnam War.

[RedAnarchist]

Yushchenko won by about 53% to about 42%

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13271654,00.html

[RedAnarchist]

Oh no, its happening again&#33; <_<

Now Yanukovych is moaning about the election results&#33; Dont these two realise that they are both as bad as each other? :angry:

[Wurkwurk]

LOL&#33; I just went to Reuter&#39;s and XPhile is completely correct: Yanukovych is gonna go to Ukraine&#39;s supreme court and ***** about another election fraud. Personally I don&#39;t give a shit who wins, as long as its person who the people TRULY chose. And to that point, it is almost completely Yushchenko who won it.

I hope civil war dosen&#39;t erupt :(