Should we be able to defend ourselves?

[T_SP]

I heard this debate on the radio today and thought it would be good to post here? Should we, particularly in the UK, be able to defend ourselves and our property against burglars by any means necessary even if that menas shooting them dead??
Personally I have a wooden baseball bat that I wouldn't think twice about wrapping round a burglars head but I'd get locked up for it!! What kinda shit is that?? Some bastard comes in my house to steal my stuff and I'd get locked up for seeing him off!! The alternative, phone the police and they might get there within an hour if your lucky!! :angry:

[commiecrusader]

Yeah I agree. Burglars are given way too much protection under UK law. However, what if you mistake someone making an unexpected visit for a trespasser and shoot them?

I think proportional force should be allowed, but not too over the top

[redstar2000]

As usual, a class analysis is in order. :lol:

Burglars who prey on the poor or on ordinary working people deserve whatever happens to them...even if it's fatal. :angry:

On the other hand, burglars who prey on the wealthy are just stealing from thieves...I sort of hope they get away with it. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[KrazyRabidSheep]

I've never had much problems with unwanted visitors.

I keep a bat in the closet next to the door. Normaly the sight of an angry 6'3", 91kilo (200lbs) Irish man with a large wooden bat over his left shoulder is more then enough to persuade most Javovah's witnesses to try the next door down.

I expect it would be the same for any intruders. If it wasn't, I boubt I'd kill them. Just bash their bastard ribs in. I'm not the type to hold a grudge.

[FatFreeMilk]

That's sucks for people in the UK if you really can get locked up for sticking up for your property!

I'm not sure how the law sees it here in the US but I bet it's on the side of the victim. People in the border states get away with killing Mexicans who illegally cross the border into their property all the time. I'm not saying they're robbers, but in order to burglarze somebody, you have to "tresspass" first. "Can't let those dirty Mexicans get that far!"

If somebody tried to rob my house I would not hesitate to beat them with whatever heavy object I could get my hands onto first (That is, if I was home alone, if not, I'd call my daddy!). Then I'd kick them a million times in the balls so they learn.


I keep a bat in the closet next to the door. Normaly the sight of an angry 6'3", 91kilo (200lbs) Irish man with a large wooden bat over his left shoulder is more then enough to persuade most Javovah's witnesses to try the next door down.
JW's are nice though:( Just tell them you don't wanna talk to them and they'll leave.

[Raisa]

First of all,

How many burglars just walk into your house at night and go " hi, im a burglar" ?

You do not know what the hell he is! This has nothing to do with defending property, and everything to do with defending yourself. The person came into your house unwelcome. What does your government expect you to do, descuss what they want from you over tea and cookies?

[Anti-Capitalist1]

I remember that a couple years back, one of my teachers had a burgular who was trying to break into her house fall through a sky light. the burgular sued her, for injuries in the fall, and won.

Personally, I got a crowbar, which I would be more than happy to introduce to a burgular's head. But then again, the laws about that kind of sutff are laxer here in the US.

[Frederick_Engles]

I think that people should be able to do what they want to burglers... but people who shoot ramblers for walking over their feilds should be prosecuted

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think one should give a warning before shooting a burglar - 'get the fuck out of my house!' should be sufficient. After that, if they fail to leave, you can shoot them/smash their face in/whatever.

As for mistaking burglars for unannounced visitors - bullshit! an unannounced visitor will knock on your front door and wait for you to answer, not break in through a window and start filling their pockets with your stuff. People who sneak into other people's houses are up to no good.

Did you know that in the UK you are not even allowed to restrain somebody who enters your house with a criminal intent?

I think that's fucking ridiculous!

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 06:14 PM
I heard this debate on the radio today and thought it would be good to post here? Should we, particularly in the UK, be able to defend ourselves and our property against burglars by any means necessary even if that menas shooting them dead??
Personally I have a wooden baseball bat that I wouldn't think twice about wrapping round a burglars head but I'd get locked up for it!! What kinda shit is that?? Some bastard comes in my house to steal my stuff and I'd get locked up for seeing him off!! The alternative, phone the police and they might get there within an hour if your lucky!! :angry:
Firstly may I congratulate your fine self on completing a discussion without suggesting that the only course of action is to "build a new mass-workers party". A cheap jibe, but I felt compelled. :D

Anyway, to the issue. I belive as RedStar does that a 'Marxist Analysis' is in order. I feel that it is social problems which cause crime such as bugulary. It upsets me to great length that many of you would be willing to hurt a fellow man becuase he feels he must steal. In many cases people steal to support drug habits, or heaven forbid, to support a young family living on one of many sink estate's.

People who commit bugulary from other people's houses are almost exclusivly from the bottom of the 'food chain'. The 'commodity fetishsim' with which they have grown up with is the thing which fundementally compels them to commit the crime - we all know this, most of us are Marxists. Why is it then that you feel you should hurt them? Let alone call the pigs! I'm sure Mr. Taffe has never written on the subject, call yourself a Trotskyist? Please, defend your statement.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It upsets me to great length that many of you would be willing to hurt a fellow man becuase he feels he must steal. In many cases people steal to support drug habits, or heaven forbid, to support a young family living on one of many sink estate's.

That does not give them a right to steal what I have worked for just as hard if not harder.

I should be able to defend 'the fruits of my labour' (Such as there is under capitalism) with maximum force!

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 11:12 PM

It upsets me to great length that many of you would be willing to hurt a fellow man becuase he feels he must steal. In many cases people steal to support drug habits, or heaven forbid, to support a young family living on one of many sink estate's.

That does not give them a right to steal what I have worked for just as hard if not harder.

I should be able to defend 'the fruits of my labour' (Such as there is under capitalism) with maximum force!
So you would not be willing to share yoour 'fruits' with your fellow man? After all you know the feeling he has to suffer, you have your fruits stolen day in, day out by your employers, but you don't go and beat them up do you?

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 09:15 AM
That's sucks for people in the UK if you really can get locked up for sticking up for your property!
Don't get me wrong, any burglar trying to steal from an honest working man should be punished, but all this talk of "property" is rather disturbing. Surely we, as communists, should emphasize human life and workers' rights to enjoy the fruits of their labour more than the concept of "property"!

[PRC-UTE]

Don't get me wrong, any burglar trying to steal from an honest working man should be punished, but all this talk of "property" is rather disturbing. Surely we, as communists, should emphasize human life and workers' rights to enjoy the fruits of their labour more than the concept of "property"!

Like it's been said, the issue is contextual.

Personal property, which is your home, car, clothing, etc, is distinct from private property, which is used to expoit. Without your personal property you can't live, so attacking a person's things is an attack on their life, to paraphrase Shakespeare. ;)

[KrazyRabidSheep]

Someone breaks into your house and they're a victim of society. So what?

Anyone here that claims that they'd welcome the chap in, offer a nice cup of coffee and dinner, and present him (or her) with anything they wanted in the house is either a liar, stupid, or insane.

If somebody breaks into your house it is not a matter of proporty, but rather safety. Someone bashes your door down, they're much more likely to bash your head in as well then an everyday passerby on the street (mentaly unstable, they panic, that desperate, whatever)

Any animal has 2 responses to danger, fight and flight. Considering you're cornered in familiar territory, most people would chose fight.

[h&s]

I agree with the idea of giving a burglar a good kicking to restrain them /scare them off, but shooting them? For me that is completely wrong. I remember about this time last month a judge let off a man for shooting a burglar. The Express hailed it as a 'Victory for Common Sense' on their front cover, but to me shooting a burglar is attempted murder. If there is a burglar in your house shooting your gun just above them should be more than enough to scare them off. Aiming to hit them is aiming to kill them to me.

[Raisa]

"So you would not be willing to share your 'fruits' with your fellow man?"

Why can't he just knock on the door and ask?

"If somebody breaks into your house it is not a matter of proporty, but rather safety. Someone bashes your door down, they're much more likely to bash your head in as well then an everyday passerby on the street (mentaly unstable, they panic, that desperate, whatever)"

You , right up there ^ have the right idea. I do not know how many of you have actually had to fear for someone breaking in your home at night, but this bourgeois apologism about giving away all your shit like you know that is all he is there for offends me. You are telling people that it is wrong to defend themselves, but letting people rob you is not going to liberate the working class!

[Commie Rat]

i aggre with this kid ///\\\

i also belive in legalisation of marijana therefore it will be less expensive so there is les need for people to steal for it but the countries that run of the drug trade would be fuked

[T_SP]

Originally posted by AC-[email protected] 26 2004, 01:01 AM

Firstly may I congratulate your fine self on completing a discussion without suggesting that the only course of action is to "build a new mass-workers party". A cheap jibe, but I felt compelled. :D


Cheeky bastard!! That was below the belt :D
Actually I believe building a mass workers party to overthrow capitalism could well stem the rise of burglaries!! After all a socialist world would iradicate the need to steal things because people would have nothing to need for!!

So build a mass workers party!!

Why are you anti-revolution? :blink:

[dso79]

I don't mind sharing the fruits of my labour, but only with honest people. Beggars asking for some money don't really bother me, even though that's illegal too. Burglary, however, should never be tolerated. Not only are burglars a threat to your safety and your property, they also rob you of your sense of security; you no longer feel safe in your own home. Imagine what impact it has on a child when it comes across a burglar in the middle of the night; psychological scars will remain long after the burglar is gone. So when it comes to burglars: proportionate force is good, lethal force is even better.

[komon]

imagine you are a burglar you break into an house,but somebody see you and is afraid
one of the two as a gun.......bang........
just know when you begin something.......like killing

[Imyr]

Burglars are thieves that produce nothing for society, they should be imprisoned and put to work the same as the capitalists exploiters.

[komon]

Burglars are thieves that produce nothing for society
what are you waiting for to do it against your ruler

[Imyr]

what?

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 06:21 PM
Burglars are thieves that produce nothing for society, they should be imprisoned and put to work the same as the capitalists exploiters.
Too much 'Red Alert' perhaps comrade? :D

[commiecrusader]

Some strange things have been said about UK law governing what you can do to a burglar. But a defence is available if you stop a burglar. You can plead Self-Defence. This allows you to use proportional force to stop harm to yourself, someone else, or the commitment of a crime. However, to be totally safe, you have to:
1: Give 2/3 express warnings of what will happen if they dont leave, such as 'put the stuff down and leave my property or I will have to use force'
2: Any force used should be proportional. For instance, shooting an unarmed man who is running away is clearly unjustified (which is what that farmer did in the UK who got locked up). However, hand-to-hand, melee-weapon to melee-weapon, or gun to gun is acceptable, and exceptions may be made if you are smaller/weaker/more vulnerable than the assailant.
3: Deadly force is only acceptable if it is a 'kill-or-be-killed' situation.

Personally, I think this is ridiculous, and the laws should be loosened such as in the U.$.