Should we fix or eliminate the Catholic Church? - can't deci

[Supermodel]

On the one hand, we could let the current child abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, and consequent threat to its membership, not to mention its $$$BILLIONS in assets, just play itself out, or we could help them along wiht proposals to fix the problem.

Assuming for one moment that the Catholic Church deserves to be saved, here is my manifesto:

1. Fire all leadership and hire all new.
2. Perform an investigation, including lie detector testing, into the relationships all priests have had with minors. Apart from sex, this should include corporal punishment as well, an equally bad problem when I was a kid.
3. Eliminate the mockery of celibacy in the priesthood
4. Prosecute all priests who abused minors
5. Place a lay person of the opposite sex in all meetings of priests and parishoners (except in counselling or confessional)

Comments?

[honest intellectual]

1. is excessive. how cn you have an establishment if you change every person in it? Who counts as "leadership"?

2. Also excessive. The scandal is not that widespread

3. Agree. But it's no "mockery"; mos priests do remain celibate

4. Naturally

[Supermodel]

Thanks for response. By leadership, you could go to the Cardinals and above I think. Certainly in the US and any other counrty that has experienced a complete breakdown of trust between clergy and child. In the corporate world, when the place is screwed up, you replace management.

2. OK you can do a thorough investigation. But even without a thorough investigation to date, an enormous amount of abuse has come forward. This is a cultural and organizational flaw.

The mockery of celibacy is not only that many priests have not celebrated celibacy throughout their priesthood, but the entire theory of celibacy at all. Celibacy is a joke. There is no logic, even those folks who think it will make you more spiritual, get a grip. Literally.

[pastradamus]

Again ye fucking fools are all talking bout the scandals & shit.And how evil roman caothlics are,all ye can do is accuse and mention the bad stuff.............what about all the good things they did?...I think they far outweigh the bad stuff.

And about the investigation stuff,His holyness the pope has decided not to defend paedophile priests any longer, he is leaving it to the authorities.

I think if u let priests marry then that wud get rid of a lot of the paedophile stuff,its like the way guys in jail turn gay without sex.

In my view I think any clergy member who abuses a child physically,sexualy or mentaly should be arrested and should rot in a cell.

AND BACK OFF CAOTHOLICISM SUPERMODEL!

[Menshevik]

Its not the lack of sex that "turns them gay" Pa, as you so eloquently put it, in fact it's a bit more complicated than that. Now, understand me, I agree that most people, especially[ seculars, don't really have a say in what the Catholic Church does, so you're right, Pa, they should keep out of it.

Now the main cause of pedophilia, particularly in the Catholic Priest is three fold. Pedophilia is most common among Diocescan priests, not members of holy orders like the Jesuits or Christian Brothers. Why is the reason for that? you may ask. Well, most priests enter the seminary at a very young age; some even begin their training at age 17. Most have not had any real sexual experience (with other men or women) and lately, more and more men with a realization of their homosexuality, have joined the fold. In seminary, these young novice priests often develope a twisted psychological understanding of their sexuality, and being little more than boys themselves, can start to have uncontrolable sexual lust for children, particularly boys. This does not only exist among homosexual priests--it affects heterosexual priests as well. It's really the young age and lack of sexual experience that can create this fetish that they have really no control over. I guess it can be viewed simply as an immature sexuality that hasn't been given the chance to develop, arguablly because of celibacy. Of course, most young priests try to resist such temptation, but eventually, when they have taken their final vows and have control of a parish, these priests give in. It's very unfortunate because no one really tries to confront these feelings that the new priests may be having, until it's too late.

Now, the second part of this tragedy lies within the develpment of fetishising young boys. The obssession with children can be largely related to the priests' childhood. A majority of the priests were abused as boys themselves, this only encourages learned behavior. It's the same phenomenon in ancient Greek culture. Young boys were often sodomized by older nobleman as part of a mentoring program. When the boys who were sodomized reached adulthood (mind you they were only fucked, they never did the fucking) they have developed an odd attraction to buggery. So when their chance to mentor another little boy, they jumo on it. And of course, they feel strangely gratified after their first ejaculation inside a child's anus. It's pretty sick stuff, but this wasnt taboo in Greece, it was very common. Now, pedophilia is disdained, and for good reasons. The damage that you do to a child when you violate them is irrepairable. Thats why so many of these priests at in such a way.
This does not mean that men only become priests so they can fulfill their sick fantasies, no, much of the time they think that the policy of celibacy will help to control their urges; it almost never does. Ending celibacy (in my opinion) will not solve the problem. Zero tolerance (which is the new policy) will. The Bishops who lied repeatedly and moved these guys from parish to parish need to resign. And there needs to be a new presence of authority. The pope is dead and therefore, the church at a lull, but soon this epidemic will be solved through new leadership. Finally, more attention/studies and education on pedophilia to be brought about, thats the only right way to do this. We musnt forget the scores of priests out there, who greatly outweigh the pedophiles and liars in robes, and how they have been affected as a cmty of priests. It's not fair to blame anyone with a Roman Collar, so please don't condemn the church as a whole. Again, ending celibacy is not the answer. Celibacy is the ultimate sacrifice for God that I respect all priests for making.

I myself, was directly involved in a sex abuse case (dont worry i wasnt physically abused by anyone--many others were) within the church years ago, but only now it looks like justice will be served.

[Domino]

I say just ban the Catholic Church! No offense...

[RedCeltic]

Abolish all "Organised" Religion and return worship back into the hands of the people and not the priests.

[Josip Broz Tito]

RedCeltic, I completely agree with you. Just ban all organised religions.

[Fires of History]

Catholicism is not the problem, Amerikkkan culture is. Sex in an obsession in the U$, and there is not this same problem anywhere else in the world (don't throw singular incidents in my face, I'm talking about the widespread nature of the problem with the priests in the U$ specifically). And with how this culture of sexual obsession combines with pastoral celibacy, I am not surprised these abuses have become a problem. I don't know who said this, but the saying, "In the U$ sex is an obsession, to the rest of the world a fact," is apt to this situation.

On the whole, if I have any respect for Christians, it is for Catholics. The liberation theology hammered out by Latin and South American clergy is brilliant, and one that serves the people. Also, I will never forget my time in New Orleans, where I met many, many homeless. Every single one of them talked about the compassion they receive from the Catholics, such as feeding them and even letting them sleep in their sanctuaries. This is Christianity at its finest. Unlike the Protestant denominations that I have been exposed to, the Catholics actually have a social ethic. Let's just say Mother Teresa is no fluke.

My best regards to a church that actually gives a shit about the poor, the homeless, the people. Since Christianity won't be going away any time soon, it's at least good to see that some of them try to live as Jesus did.

[evil chris]

destroy slavery!
distroy mental slavery too!!
Sack the priests and send them out to get propper jobs, loot the churches of anything useful then knock the buldings down and use the matrieral to build useful stuff.
Sure there are nice preists and reverends, gurus and buddas ( i'm not being discriminatory against catholisim don't worry) , shit i know some of them very well, but that doesn't make up for the relgious attrocites.
Wether there are nice and helpful holymen matters not.
The virtue existed long before the cult!
Mattma Ghandi did not seek to liberate his people because of karma or whatever, but out of love for his people and free them from the oppressive British Elite.
Same with Martin Luthor King Jnr (obviously not the Brits there though)
and the same with the priests and nuns routinely exeucted by south american death squads (trained in the US, a staunchly Christian nation.)

bollocks to religion.

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 11:35 am on June 12, 2002
Catholicism is not the problem, Amerikkkan culture is. Sex in an obsession in the U$, and there is not this same problem anywhere else in the world (don't throw singular incidents in my face, I'm talking about the widespread nature of the problem with the priests in the U$ specifically).[hr]You want widespread? Try going to Afghanistan. There, you don't have to be a priest to be a pedophile. Many, many men there are abusing young boys. At a MUCH higher rate than in America. But I think we all know that the Taliban wasn't distributing Deep Throat and anal lube and saying "Be obsessed with sex!" Unless I missed something. And while women's rights still have a ways to go in America, the US is still in the better half. The sexual revolution, which some people think was the beginning of the open sex obsession in America, was simply an acknowledgement that women have needs and desires, too. And the beginning of openness which I think has ultimately been beneficial.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 11:35 am on June 12, 2002
And with how this culture of sexual obsession combines with pastoral celibacy, I am not surprised these abuses have become a problem.[hr]If sex obsession were the root cause, I would suspect that priests would just be hanging around brothels.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 11:35 am on June 12, 2002
Also, I will never forget my time in New Orleans, where I met many, many homeless. Every single one of them talked about the compassion they receive from the Catholics, such as feeding them and even letting them sleep in their sanctuaries. This is Christianity at its finest. Unlike the Protestant denominations that I have been exposed to, the Catholics actually have a social ethic. Let's just say Mother Teresa is no fluke.[hr]Hallelujah! The best homeless shelters I've ever worked at were run by Catholics. Lots of Catholics are good people.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 11:35 am on June 12, 2002
it's at least good to see that some of them try to live as Jesus did.[hr]Well, Jesus didn't have a Popemobile. But I see what you're saying.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 11:44 am on June 12, 2002
distroy mental slavery[hr]Religion is oppressive for some, but I don't think you realize how liberating it is for others.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 11:44 am on June 12, 2002
knock the buldings down and use the matrieral to build useful stuff.[hr]Right on! For example, I say we knock down a Church-run homeless shelter and build a playground for you. Or how about a Church-run food pantry? I'd take the materials and knock some sense into you with 'em.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 11:44 am on June 12, 2002
Sure there are nice preists and reverends, gurus and buddas ( i'm not being discriminatory against catholisim don't worry) , shit i know some of them very well, but that doesn't make up for the relgious attrocites.[hr]That's like saying "Sure there are nice communists and socialists, but that doesn't make up for the leftist atrocities like the Purges and the Khmer Rogue's crimes." Every single priest I've ever known (and I've known quite a few) has denounced the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. as un-Christian and sick. The Crusaders broke the most important commandment in the whole Bible, so I don't consider the Crusades a crime of Christianity.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 11:44 am on June 12, 2002
Wether there are nice and helpful holymen matters not.
The virtue existed long before the cult![hr]There are far more nice and helpful religious people than there are mean and useless. And the virtue is enhanced and added to by the "cult". (Are you talking about the band?)[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 11:44 am on June 12, 2002
Mattma Ghandi did not seek to liberate his people because of karma or whatever, but out of love for his people and free them from the oppressive British Elite.
Same with Martin Luthor King Jnr (obviously not the Brits there though)
and the same with the priests and nuns routinely exeucted by south american death squads (trained in the US, a staunchly Christian nation.)[hr]Saying that the good things done by religious people had nothing to do with their religion and that the bad things done by religious people had everything to do with religion is irrational and inconsistent.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 11:44 am on June 12, 2002
bollocks to religion.[hr]Bollocks to you, too.

Lindsay

[Menshevik]

I think Linsay cleared this up. Christianity is no where near what is was 700 years ago. Fanaticism is not a Catholic dynamic. There are other problems with the Church, genocide and persecution isn't one of them anymore.

[Fires of History]

I Will Deny You,

I was refering primarily to Catholic abuses around the world, but I see your point.

In the larger picture, it's really just cultures that condemn sexuality. Whether it's the Puritan legacy of the U$ or the fundamentalism of Islam, a condemnation of sexuality warps and distorts it. Whatever religion it is, the result is the same. What I meant about Amerikkkan culture is that for too long sex has been taboo, hidden, 'dirty,' 'wrong.' And while many have moved beyond that, thanks to the sexual revolution (I don't see that as having anything to do with this by the way, I am very glad that happened), many others have not moved on and continue to live in a constant fear and loathing of 'down there.' And this rather recent transition from wrong to right has left many spinning in confusion. And in that same culture there are priests so conflicted about their own sexuality that young boys and girls pay the price. Maybe priests in the U$ can't handle the currents of sexual liberation they live in? Who knows.

Anyway, religious condemnation of sexuality is the problem, and the U$ is steeped in a tradition of it. After all, Amerikkkan sexual culture was born of believers too tight-assed for even Elizabethan England. The Puritans had such an impact on sexual thinking in the U$ that it's hard to even guage.

I personally think priests should have families, but I know the theological dynamite that really is. Virtually all Catholic dogma, from Confession to the Sacraments, is founded on their beliefs about the Priesthood. So, this won't be changing anytime soon. Unfortunately for 8th grade Timmy.

[pastradamus]

thats what i hate so many idiots on this site with the "Im gonna be different and not believe in any religion cuz im a smartass" attitude.

...................................Fools all of ye!................................

[Fires of History]

Wow, you're like open-minded and stuff. I guess you're like right and stuff because religion is like really about freedom and individuality and stuff. And I agree with you and stuff because all the anti-God idiots here are like totally just going with the crowd and against God and stuff just to like fit in and all that other like whack shit. Smart people are like wise because they just accept dogma and stuff without asking questions. God like totally rules, and stuff. These anti-God idiots aren't even like smart enough and stuff to learn from history how like religion and all that stuff has been so good for like the society we live in and stuff, you know?

[evil chris]

Lindsey- when i said "knock the buildings down and bould something useful" i was refering to knocking churches down, not positive church projects.Myabe i should have made that clearer in my orginal post.I would say that homeless shelters are very fuckin and we both know that that was a piss poor attempt to twist my words.

"Sure there are nice communists and socialists, but that doesn't make up for the leftist atrocities like the Purges and the Khmer Rogue's crimes."

yerah ok i over generalised.Soz.I wasn't actually thinking of the Inquistions and Crusades.They were about economics and nothing to do with relgion.I was more thinking of the tradional reactionary brainwashing it enactec apon it's worshippers, it's sustrained attack against free will and it's sactamonius bullshit in general.Catholism is gulty especally of being complacent while terrible things are happening (see The Holocaust) and simply saying "have pacitince brother"
I would actully run with you though about the Khmer Rouge,Soviet purgeing thing.The Communsts are implicated and implicated they remain.

Actully when I think about The Crusades could rather consistantly be called a good Christian act if you've read the bible.It was an act of genocide against a diffrent group of people useing a diffrent faith as a scapegoat but really attack for matieral gain but marching under the banner of Rightous Fury.I'm remided of God ordering Joshu to commit genocide against many peoples to steal they're land, women and resources.

"There are far more nice and helpful religious people than there are mean and useless."

yes,in my experance that is true.But i would put it down to them being really nice people and branding by Christianity.

"And the virtue is enhanced and added to by the "cult".

nowhat? how? when a person who prays does a good act is it better than mine as a non beliver?
I really fuckin resent cults stealing the good actions of a person and saying "o well it's a christian action".
Fuck off! It's a good human action and got nothing to do with relgious faith and everything to do with the love of my fellow man.

"Are you talking about the band?)"

i'm sorry to kiss your ass but you rule dude.Still witty while laying into me.

"and that the bad things done by religious people had everything to do with religion is irrational and inconsistent."

nono, you misunderstand.The bad thigns peopel do are becuase they are pricks too!Religion has no bareing, respect of your fellow man has.If you have no respect for man (prahaps becuase you belive that your relgious enlightenment puts you in an elite) you will fuck em over.If you respect them you will be good to people.
It's just a matter of religious branding.

thanks for being the only person to pull me up!
respect.
chris

[pastradamus]

Quote: from Fires of History on 8:01 pm on June 12, 2002
Wow, you're like open-minded and stuff. I guess you're like right and stuff because religion is like really about freedom and individuality and stuff. And I agree with you and stuff because all the anti-God idiots here are like totally just going with the crowd and against God and stuff just to like fit in and all that other like whack shit. Smart people are like wise because they just accept dogma and stuff without asking questions. God like totally rules, and stuff. These anti-God idiots aren't even like smart enough and stuff to learn from history how like religion and all that stuff has been so good for like the society we live in and stuff, you know?


I ment i just hate fuckers who are tryin to be different by being athiest,u think i've never questioned my faith? Ur the idiot man.When the fuck did i say going with the crowd? u fucking sarcastic wanker!

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 2:19 pm on June 12, 2002
I was refering primarily to Catholic abuses around the world, but I see your point.[hr]I don't think we can really be sure about that at this point in time. These abuses were going on for a very long time but were only recently brought to light, so there's no telling what's going on around the world.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 2:19 pm on June 12, 2002
In the larger picture, it's really just cultures that condemn sexuality. Whether it's the Puritan legacy of the U$ or the fundamentalism of Islam, a condemnation of sexuality warps and distorts it.[hr]How much of a Puritan legacy is there in the US? But I agree that a condemnation of sexuality is bad.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 2:19 pm on June 12, 2002
What I meant about Amerikkkan culture is that for too long sex has been taboo, hidden, 'dirty,' 'wrong.' And while many have moved beyond that, thanks to the sexual revolution (I don't see that as having anything to do with this by the way, I am very glad that happened)[hr]Well, it's kind of because you've got Andrea Dworkin in your signature, you see.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 2:19 pm on June 12, 2002
And this rather recent transition from wrong to right has left many spinning in confusion.[hr]I don't think the conflict is between Mtv/Playboy and traditional strict Catholic culture, but simply human nature and strict Catholic culture. No one needs Hugh Hefner to tell them that sex is fun. If the Church said that priests should no longer eat so that there would be more room in their stomachs for Jesus, do you think that priests who binged would have done so because they see food glorified on The Food Network or because it's human nature to eat? I've never seen Playboy or the Food Network and I've seen hardly any Mtv, but eating and fucking are still two of my favorite things.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 2:19 pm on June 12, 2002
And in that same culture there are priests so conflicted about their own sexuality that young boys and girls pay the price. Maybe priests in the U$ can't handle the currents of sexual liberation they live in? Who knows.[hr]I still respectfully disagree with you and believe that there's more at play here. If they were just wondering what sex was like you'd think they would go to a sex shop or a whorehouse.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 2:19 pm on June 12, 2002
Anyway, religious condemnation of sexuality is the problem, and the U$ is steeped in a tradition of it. After all, Amerikkkan sexual culture was born of believers too tight-assed for even Elizabethan England. The Puritans had such an impact on sexual thinking in the U$ that it's hard to even guage.[hr]As I recall, thoughs on sex have changed quite a bit in these last 400 years. After all, that's how I got here. And my grandparents, who are very, very Jewish, didn't really mind that my mother has three kids out of wedlock with a gentile. I know that not all religious people are as cool as this, but many religious people really can change with the times. Even the Catholics had the Vatican II.[hr]Quote: from Fires of History on 2:19 pm on June 12, 2002
I personally think priests should have families, but I know the theological dynamite that really is. Virtually all Catholic dogma, from Confession to the Sacraments, is founded on their beliefs about the Priesthood. So, this won't be changing anytime soon. Unfortunately for 8th grade Timmy.[hr]Actually, as I recall there isn't a whole lot about celibacy in the Bible and it wasn't adapted immediately when the Catholic Church was born. It's a tradition but not a commandment.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
when i said "knock the buildings down and bould something useful" i was refering to knocking churches down, not positive church projects.Myabe i should have made that clearer in my orginal post.I would say that homeless shelters are very fuckin and we both know that that was a piss poor attempt to twist my words.[hr]I didn't mean to twist your words. I was simply pointing out that if there is no more Catholic Church, there will be no more Catholic homeless shelters. Sorry if you thought I was being a *****. I didn't mean to be manipulative.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
I was more thinking of the tradional reactionary brainwashing it enactec apon it's worshippers, it's sustrained attack against free will and it's sactamonius bullshit in general.Catholism is gulty especally of being complacent while terrible things are happening (see The Holocaust) and simply saying "have pacitince brother"[hr]Not all worshippers are brainwashed. When I think of the ones who are, the Assembly of G-d comes to mind. But for every abortion clinic shooting there have been countless people who have been helped by it. The 700 Club is obviously brainwashing bullshit, but there are plenty of secular movements that are even worse. (See The Holocaust . . . where, by the way, Catholics were actually murdered by the thousands.)[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
Actully when I think about The Crusades could rather consistantly be called a good Christian act if you've read the bible.It was an act of genocide[hr]"Thou shalt not kill." Boom! Not Christian.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
I'm remided of God ordering Joshu to commit genocide against many peoples to steal they're land, women and resources.[hr]G-d has said lots of things. Let's face it, the Bible was written by many people and has been translated many times. It's full of contradictions. There have been plenty of times when G-d commanded his followers to do good things.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
yes,in my experance that is true.But i would put it down to them being really nice people and branding by Christianity.[hr]Christianity isn't the be-all, end-all, but it's a great way to get people organized and I really do believe that it contributes to a person's sense of obligation to others.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
nowhat? how? when a person who prays does a good act is it better than mine as a non beliver?
I really fuckin resent cults stealing the good actions of a person and saying "o well it's a christian action".
Fuck off! It's a good human action and got nothing to do with relgious faith and everything to do with the love of my fellow man.[hr]I don't like it when someone says that feeding the homeless is a Christian action and ONLY a Christian action. But if someone simply says that it's a Christian action . . . they're not lying. It's also a communist action, a charitable action, a Buddhist action, a socialist action, etc.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
i'm sorry to kiss your ass but you rule dude.Still witty while laying into me.[hr]That's what you get for chatting with a child of the 80's.[hr]Quote: from evil chris on 6:28 pm on June 12, 2002
nono, you misunderstand.The bad thigns peopel do are becuase they are pricks too![hr]Okay . . . good. Suddenly, you seem much smarter. :)

Toodles,
Lindsay

[hobo]

I'm not going to repeat what has already been said the obvious stuff such as changes in leader-ship, prison for those found guilty in a court of law and so forth.
in replie to supermodel at the very start, i dont think placing someone of the oposite sex in meeting between priests and young children will help. Firstly because it will destroy the system of a private meeting and because it could it still leaves the opportunity for abuse but in more extreme circumstances.
pastradamus, i have to got to ask about your signature, do you honestly believe that the Irish are only fighting themselves....

[evil chris]

". I was simply pointing out that if there is no more Catholic Church, there will be no more Catholic homeless shelters"

will there be no good people when there is no Catholic church? Why can't they be run secularly?

"See The Holocaust . . . where, by the way, Catholics were actually murdered by the thousands.)"

oh indeed they were.But the Catholic Leadership ( i am deliberately seperateing the Leadership from the majority) were horrendously compclacent while millions were killed

""Thou shalt not kill." Boom! Not Christian."

This commandment is open to interpritation.I have heard alot of reglious people say this can be trnaslated as Thou Shalt Not Murder,.

"Let's face it, the Bible was written by many people and has been translated many times. It's full of contradictions. "

Doesn't that ring some really huge alam bells?
This book is ment to be inspired by God.If God is a perfect divine creature then what he inspires (the bible) should also be perfect and non contractitionary.
How could you put stock in, and draw relgious faith from a book so wildly contracdicory.The God of the Old Testerment is stoneing happy, spiteful,helps the Israelites cut a bloody swath across the Middle East and allows,ney demands his followers to "uttery destroy all that was in the city [Jerico],both man and woman,young and old,and ox and sheep and ass with the edge of the sword" (Joshua 6 vrs 21)
Then God trips out completly and changes his tune from world flooding tyrant to the New Testerment God of the slaves with the "weak will iherit the earth" "if a man hits you on one cheak, turn the other one and let him hit you on that ceak too"

--- bed time --- contiune tomrrow--

[Vladimir]

I say fix it, the church as a charity is the best ever......it gives billions to charities.............how much do you give??

IG32

[Supermodel]

Irishguevara, in your honor, I will no longer pick on the Catholic church on this site.

I think they have me beat, anyway.

[pastradamus]

Quote: from hobo on 6:37 pm on June 13, 2002

pastradamus, i have to got to ask about your signature, do you honestly believe that the Irish are only fighting themselves....


That quote is ment to be a joke man,lol
I thought i'd be a cheeky monkey and put it down :)

and no at the moment we are also takin on america,the EU and possibly thinking of invading belgium,dam belgiums! lol :)

[pastradamus]

Quote: from IrishGuevara32 on 12:41 am on June 14, 2002
I say fix it, the church as a charity is the best ever......it gives billions to charities.............how much do you give


Yeah damb ye people & ur ivory backscratchers!

[pastradamus]

Quote: from IrishGuevara32 on 12:41 am on June 14, 2002
I say fix it, the church as a charity is the best ever......it gives billions to charities.............how much do you give


Yeah damb ye people & ur ivory backscratchers! lol........................muhahahahahahahahahahah hahaha!

[maoist3]

Charity? Catholics give money to the Church and that
Church then wastes it. The question is whether
or not those same people could be motivated to
give money to better causes. Any huge organization
like that is going to be able to cough up major dough.

This is not just a sex oppression or mental slavery
issue either.

Here is our book review on the Pope's complicity
with Nazism. The book was written by a Catholic.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?C1C921071

[pastradamus]

You really dont know how what the fuck your talking bout do u?

the caothlic church has set up countless aid agencies in my country,it saved the lives of thousands of people in the starving 30's when the country was gripped by poverty.

[Marxist1848]

Quote: from Fires of History on 11:35 am on June 12, 2002
Catholicism is not the problem, Amerikkkan culture is. Sex in an obsession in the U$, and there is not this same problem anywhere else in the world (don't throw singular incidents in my face, I'm talking about the widespread nature of the problem with the priests in the U$ specifically).

You obviously arent aware of the situations is some asian areas. My Friend (originally from Bankok) went back to Bankok last summer for vacation. He was disgusted with what happened. Men tried to get him to come to sex houses to have sex with 12-15 year old girls. It was pathetic. The men carried around a binder like a menu of these girls. If this is not a serious sexual crime than i dont know what is.


And about the church...AWAY WITH IT. It is useless. Religion its-self can be tolerated but orginized religion has taken the spirituality out of life. I personally dont belive in any of that but i have respect for Spiritual people...not religious people. Some think that being religious is being spiritual....WRONG. Orginized religion is for the weak minded and definately should go.

[canikickit]

Quote:

1. "Fire" all leadership and "hire" all new.
3. "Eliminate" the mockery of celibacy in the priesthood




This is so stupid and amazingly ridiculous I don't understand how this level of ignorancce can exist.
How do you propose this elimination of mockery?
And where do you get this idea of 'hiring'? Do you think the priests are part of the benchmarking scheme? Should they strike for a wage increase?


Idiot.

[sypher]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 5:51 am on June 12, 2002
Abolish all "Organised" Religion and return worship back into the hands of the people and not the priests.


I too agree with you 100%

[I Will Deny You]

I have worked in Catholic charities. (I am not, nor have I ever been, a Catholic.)

As tempting as it can be sometimes, we can't rid ourselves of every organization that did not fight the Nazis. Hitler massacred thousands of Catholics, and the Catholic Church did not set up the Third Reich. The (current) Pope has apologized for and denounced Nazism, and while this in no way brings back the people who died or makes everything alright it shows that the Church isn't currently pro-Nazi.

Lindsay

[canikickit]

"I say just ban the Catholic Church! No offense..." - tetelives
"Abolish all "Organised" Religion and return worship back into the hands of the people and not the priests. " - RedCeltic
"Just ban all organised religions. " - Josip Broz Tito

Have you people got mental disabilities? This is ridiculous. This is the type of thing Hitler would say. Please show me other ways in which you are stupid, this is quite intriguing.

"Catholicism is not the problem, Amerikkkan culture is. Sex in an obsession in the U$, and there is not this same problem anywhere else in the world (don't throw singular incidents in my face, I'm talking about the widespread nature of the problem with the priests in the U$ specifically)." - Fires of History

The problem of abuse is very widespread in Ireland to. so unless you were refering to sex being an obsession in america (and not having that problem anywhere else), then fuck off with yourself.

"bollocks to religion"- Evil Chris

yeah



fuck yis all anyway. Only pastradamus has managed to speak any measure of sense...'Super'model you're an idiot.

[pastradamus]

STOP this muthafucking shit right now!

If All you guys stop being so Impositive about the caothlic church.
stop thinking about their mistakes
& start thinking about the countless good deeds they have done.

IS their one fucking optimist on this damn site!
I just think most of ye see this as a way of rebeling against the system...

[Conghaileach]

from canikickit
Have you people got mental disabilities? This is ridiculous. This is the type of thing Hitler would say.

No he wouldn't. Hitler even set up his own religion in Germany, so why would he be opposed to organised religion, but at the same time set up his own form of one?

[Conghaileach]

The thing I don't like about the catholic church (and perhaps organised religion, which I'm not an expert on, in general) is that they tell the people to accept their shitty, downtrodden lives because they'll receive some kind of obscure reward when they die.

[Marxist1848]

Well said...very well said.
.:Applause:.

sean

[canikickit]

What I meant was the idea of abolishing religion is oppressive, what makes these people think they have the right to decide how people live there lives, "ban" a church. This is what Hitler would do, like the way he "banned" Judeaism.

[Marxist1848]

Ha Ha Ha.
Tis where you are wrong....Hilter didnt ban Judeaism. He banned EVERYTHING but what he practiced and persecuted anyone other than what fit into his standard. This included gyspies, christians, jews, etc.
Maybe you should realize that the holocaust was not the extermination of the jews....but of what hitler considered the "inferior race". Which infact was everything "out of standard".

I am in no way a Hilter supporter or anything close to a nazi, if not the opposite, but if we are going to discuss him, lets get the point across that the jews werent the only ones persecuted. It only seemed that way because they were usually the most numerous in the areas Hitler's Armies occupied.

sean

[komsomol]

The church is full of hypocrites.

[canikickit]

Jesus Christ! All I'm trying to do is make the point that the idea of banning any religion is oppressive bullshit, just like Hitler was full of oppressive bullshit. Why the hell do you think there was inverted commas around 'banned'? I know he didn't ban Judeaism and we're not discussing Hitler. So fuck off back to seaworld...