Voice of the Commies

[Scott M]

Having listened to many whinges about specific countries' political systems, i just wanted to quickly ask how you would have your country run? what would you change if you were in power? what policies would you alter etc.

scott

[RedAnarchist]

I assume you mean if you was the Prime Minister of a state?

With that assumption in mind, i would advocate the following -

- No more alignment with American foriegn policy
- Equal wages for women
- Full marital, adoption and co-habitation rights for all sexualities
- Voting to be extended to every UK resident over the age of 16
- Anthem to be replaced by the Internationale
- Closure of all nuclear power plants
- Abolish the Monarchy
- Abolish the House of Lords
- Abolish heriditary titles
- Abolish titles such as Sir and Lady
- Abolish tuition fees
- Nationalization of all companies and public services
- Removal of all US bases from the UK
- Removal of all UK troops from foreign land, unless there on peacekeeping missions or working with the UN
- Cuts in size of armed forces
- Confiscation of all privately-owned land
- Banning of all "blood sports"
- Income tax of 55% for the bourgoisie
- Income tax of 20% for the proletariat
- Pensions to be linked to wages
- Closure of all American "fast food" stores such as McDonald's
- Travellers and Romanies to be given permanent caravan sites in every county
- UK to leave NATO
- Congestion charges to be brought in for all city centres
- Elections to be held every 3 years, with a three-term limit
- Derelict buildings to be renovated and given to the homeless and lumpen proletarians as housing
- Companies that pollute waterways will be closed down
- Smoking to be banned everywhere except in private homes and outside
- Tax rates to be linked to wages
- Fines to be linked to wages
- Legalisation of cannabis and marijuana for medicinal and recreational use
- All public transport to be re-nationalized
- Religion to kept out of schools
- Closure of Sellafield
- Repatriation of foriegn national treasures such as the Elgin Marbles

[h&s]

But as a communist you would say that revolution not reformation is the answer - every single thing to do with the current system needs to be scrapped.
BTW, doesn't this really belong in Theory?

[RedAnarchist]

I assumed he meant as a PM of a state, but if it wanst i would certainly go down the following path -

revolutionary socialism

Dictatorship of the Proletariat

Communist society

Anarchist society

[h&s]

Oh right. Funnily enouh if I had to be a PM under the current constitution I would do exactly as you have just put, but why set borgeois income tax at only 55%? Come on! Even old Labour could do better than that. 99% or nothing I say... :)

[Wiesty]

it would be equal wages everyone (but higher then cubas was)
if u didnt like it u were free to live somewhere else
no capital punishment

[Maksym]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 17 2004, 12:45 PM
But as a communist you would say that revolution not reformation is the answer - every single thing to do with the current system needs to be scrapped.
BTW, doesn't this really belong in Theory?
I see nothing incorrect with stating what is to be reformed. After the revolution you must reform the state to create a different system. The key elements that need to be reformed are methods of production and exchange. I really see no problem with the word reform. Naturally you will reform the state during the dictatorship of the proletariat.

[Subversive Pessimist]

- Equal wages for women


What about equal wages for men?

[Subversive Pessimist]

- Abolish the monarchy
- End to compulsory military service
- Seperation of state and church
- Nationalize private property
- Re building the industry
- Education must be free
- Open for trade with Cuba
- Legalisation of marijuana

- Increased spending on military
- Increased spending on police
- Stronger punishment for regular crimes

- Removal of all Western military bases
- Removal of troops from Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries

[RedAnarchist]

By equal wages for women, i meant that women would have the same wages for doing the same job as a man. Currency wont exist when we reach Communism anyway.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

- Closure of all nuclear power plants
- Closure of Sellafield

Are you out of your mind? why would you close down perfectly functional power stations? Is it because of the nuclear boogieman? If you must know, nuclear power has a better safety record than all the fossil fuel industries combined.
Nuclear waste? it's perfect. It can be collected and stored and above all controlled, unlike the fumes that constantly pour unregulated from coal and gas stations.
You also realise that the background radiation of an area around a coal station goes up more than around a fission station, because uranium and coal often come out of the same shaft.

I really hate hippies.

[RedAnarchist]

Is it?

I didint know that - my view of nuclear stuff was quite prejudiced by only knowing the negative aspects.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Even if all you know is that nuclear waste is kept in barrels and that fossil fuel waste is released into the atmosphere, it's not a great leap of logic to deduce that nuclear power is at least marginally safer.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

QUOTE
- Closure of all nuclear power plants
- Closure of Sellafield


Are you out of your mind? why would you close down perfectly functional power stations? Is it because of the nuclear boogieman? If you must know, nuclear power has a better safety record than all the fossil fuel industries combined.
Nuclear waste? it's perfect. It can be collected and stored and above all controlled, unlike the fumes that constantly pour unregulated from coal and gas stations.
You also realise that the background radiation of an area around a coal station goes up more than around a fission station, because uranium and coal often come out of the same shaft.

I really hate hippies.
hey, I'm a hippie, and I support nuclear power for just those reasons

it's better to let off a little steam then to burn some coal


- Equal wages for women
Nice thought, but I just don't see how it's possible as long as there are sexists in the world

sexist employers will always find an excuse (truth or lie) to pay women less

[Frederick_Engles]

Hmm I would probably:
-Nationalise all public transport
-Vastly improve the quility of public transport
-impose strict quotas on how much electricity can be used by households and industry
-Abolish all resturants, fast-food outlets etc
-Nationalise all means of production
-Leave the EU
-Abolish the monarchy and all heriditary titles
-Abolish immigration controlls
-withdraw all troops from abroad
-Give Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland
-hold reforendums in Wales and Scotland regarding independance
-Ensure that all, regardless of race or gender, get paid the same wage
-Legalise all recreational drugs
Can't think of any more at the moment, sure I will eventually though!

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

hey ComradeStrawberry, aren't you Norwegian??

[h&s]

- Increased spending on military
- Increased spending on police
- Stronger punishment for regular crimes

Please tell me that's sarcasm...


-Give Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland
Despite the fact that the majority of the people of N. Ireland don't want that?

[Subversive Pessimist]

-Abolish all resturants, fast-food outlets etc

Why?

I love Indian and Chinese food, especially at resturants.



hey ComradeStrawberry, aren't you Norwegian??

Yes, how did you know?



Please tell me that's sarcasm...



No, it's not.



- Increased spending on military

Why?

- A socialist state needs a strong military in order to defend itself from capitalist nations

- In order to help rebellions in other countries

-------------------------------------------

- Increased spending on police


Why?

- The police, where I live, is not very efficient
- Establishing a socialist state, where I live, would cause a lot of angry people


I was a little unclear on the third. I meant stronger punishment for violence.


Foreigners who use violence against the inhabitants should be sent home
[we have a major problem with violent, reactionary foreigners in Norway].

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I saw some of your posts in the Skandanavian forum. I have some family members in Norway. I didn't know/forgot that they had an embargo against Cuba, or even troops in Iraq and Afghanistan :(

[Subversive Pessimist]

I saw some of your posts in the Skandanavian forum. I have some family members in Norway. I didn't know/forgot that they had an embargo against Cuba, or even troops in Iraq and Afghanistan


Ah, I see. Yes, we have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think we have troops in other countries too. My brother in law was stationed in Sarajevo a year or so, as "UN Peacekeeper", I believe.


Well, Cuba.. It's a tricky situation.


The US refuse to trade with companies that make business with Cuba.

That basically means that most companies in the world won't trade with the Island. If I had the chance, I would create a socialist economy and trade with Cuba, despite the blockade.

[h&s]

- Increased spending on military

Why?

- A socialist state needs a strong military in order to defend itself from capitalist nations

- In order to help rebellions in other countries

1. To have achieved socialism, the people will have had to have organised themselves in some sort of way - be that with the help of leaders or without - to fight against their own army. As this would have been a success, why would they need to submit to the will of the state to fight off foreign armies?
2. As I have said above the people would have just finished fighting the regular army in a revolution. What makes you think that the army will seriously forget about this and serve the people?
3. In order to help rebellions in other countries? Helping them is fine, but to send military power is just asking for it. The second a country sends an army to help the people of another country the armies of the whole capitalist world are going to turn on them.



- Increased spending on police

- The police, where I live, is not very efficient
Isn't that a good thing?


- Establishing a socialist state, where I live, would cause a lot of angry people
But it would create more pleased people who would be more than happy to help what remains of the state in crushing any borgeois uprising.



Foreigners who use violence against the inhabitants should be sent home
[we have a major problem with violent, reactionary foreigners in Norway].
Excuse me?!?
Are you implying that people born in a country have some sort of increased right to live there than those born outside? Why treat 'foreigners' any different?

[Forward Union]

-Abolishment of all hierarchy
-Abolish the nations individuality, flag, anthem ect..
-Construction of a direct democratic 'state'
-cut ties with united states
-back global revolutionary movements.

[Subversive Pessimist]

1. To have achieved socialism, the people will have had to have organised themselves in some sort of way - be that with the help of leaders or without - to fight against their own army. As this would have been a success, why would they need to submit to the will of the state to fight off foreign armies?

Who said that they will be forced to fight off foreign armies?



2. As I have said above the people would have just finished fighting the regular army in a revolution. What makes you think that the army will seriously forget about this and serve the people?


Could you ask this question in another way? I didn't get it.


The officers that served under the capitalist regime will not have the same (if any) position in the newly constructed army.



Isn't that a good thing?

It is indeed good that the police in a capitalist nation is uneffecient. But I don't see how that can be a good thing in a socialist society. Do you agree with me?




But it would create more pleased people who would be more than happy to help what remains of the state in crushing any borgeois uprising.



I don't think you get my point.


Where I live, socialism is very unpopular. You would need a strong police AGAINST the masses. Yes, that is how bad it is.

That is why I never believe socialism can be achieved in the first world. They don't want socialism because they are too comfortable. The proletariat in the first world is exploiting the proletariat in the third world.



Excuse me?!?
Are you implying that people born in a country have some sort of increased right to live there than those born outside? Why treat 'foreigners' any different?


You don't understand the situation because you don't live here. Most foreigners (excluding those from Western European nations) are VERY reactionary, violent people. They are raping Western women on a daily basis. Most of them hate us because we're not muslims. 50 percent of those in jail are foreigners.

I do not have anything against people outside the country (I have family in PAKISTAN). But these people that come here have only caused trouble.

The vast majority of crimes here is accomplished by foreigners. Generally, if you look at a foreigner between 17-24 you can be pretty damn sure he is a criminal. That's how bad the situation is.


Those who come here are generally from villages, where people are even more reactionary. Even hijackers and muslim rebel leaders have been welcomed to our country.

Norwegians are generally very peaceful people. If there is a fight, which is rare, people, most times, fight 1 vs. 1. The foreigners go 35 vs. 1, stab, rape, torture, or even kill, again, mostly against Norwegians because they don't respect us. They think of the women as hookers and the men as potential victims.


Because the situation is as bad as it is, the best solution, seeing it from what I've experienced, is to send these violent people out of the country in cages. They should be pleased that we're not executing them on the streets: A lot of them deserves it.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Scott [email protected] 17 2004, 10:19 AM
Having listened to many whinges about specific countries' political systems, i just wanted to quickly ask how you would have your country run? what would you change if you were in power? what policies would you alter etc.
Countries should be abolished.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by Marxist [email protected] 21 2004, 08:53 PM

-Construction of a direct democratic 'state'

We need no state - to do that would over time bring back class society. I say no to that.

[h&s]

Who said that they will be forced to fight off foreign armies?
If there are no foreign armies to fight, then what is the point in having an army of your own?


Could you ask this question in another way? I didn't get it.


The officers that served under the capitalist regime will not have the same (if any) position in the newly constructed army.
Well if you have just had a revolution, the regular army is bound to have had a role in fighting against it. Now the officers may be different, but the rank and file of the army will remember the fight against the revolution, and they will still be brainwashed against it. They are not going to be very willing to fight for the revolution are they?


I don't think you get my point.


Where I live, socialism is very unpopular. You would need a strong police AGAINST the masses. Yes, that is how bad it is.

That is why I never believe socialism can be achieved in the first world. They don't want socialism because they are too comfortable. The proletariat in the first world is exploiting the proletariat in the third world.
If the people don't want socialism you shouldn't push it onto them. To do so pretty much guarantees that a parasitic beureacracy will develop itself.


You don't understand the situation because you don't live here. Most foreigners (excluding those from Western European nations) are VERY reactionary, violent people. They are raping Western women on a daily basis. Most of them hate us because we're not muslims. 50 percent of those in jail are foreigners.

I do not have anything against people outside the country (I have family in PAKISTAN). But these people that come here have only caused trouble.

The vast majority of crimes here is accomplished by foreigners. Generally, if you look at a foreigner between 17-24 you can be pretty damn sure he is a criminal. That's how bad the situation is.


Those who come here are generally from villages, where people are even more reactionary. Even hijackers and muslim rebel leaders have been welcomed to our country.

Norwegians are generally very peaceful people. If there is a fight, which is rare, people, most times, fight 1 vs. 1. The foreigners go 35 vs. 1, stab, rape, torture, or even kill, again, mostly against Norwegians because they don't respect us. They think of the women as hookers and the men as potential victims.


Because the situation is as bad as it is, the best solution, seeing it from what I've experienced, is to send these violent people out of the country in cages. They should be pleased that we're not executing them on the streets: A lot of them deserves it.
Explain to me how that statement is any different to the BNP election leaflet I recieved earlier on in the year.
You seem to hav cottoned on to a right wing argument that once people are criminals, they are criminals for life. It seems like these 'foreigners' are becoming criminals because of the situation they have to live in. If people looked at them in the streets like normal people, and not like potential rapists and thieves, maybe they would turn out differently.

[Subversive Pessimist]

If there are no foreign armies to fight, then what is the point in having an army of your own?

Foreign armies do exist.



Well if you have just had a revolution, the regular army is bound to have had a role in fighting against it. Now the officers may be different, but the rank and file of the army will remember the fight against the revolution, and they will still be brainwashed against it. They are not going to be very willing to fight for the revolution are they?


The soldiers in the old state will probably not be soldiers in the new socialist state.



If the people don't want socialism you shouldn't push it onto them.


If the bourgeoise doesn't want socialsim, shouldn't we force them?

They are exploiting the third world. I don't consider the proletariat in the first world as... proletariat.




To do so pretty much guarantees that a parasitic beureacracy will develop itself.



And the alternative? Capitalism.


Even if the country got a socialist government, there would be a lot of resistance from rightwingers. Should we not pacify rightwingers?



Explain to me how that statement is any different to the BNP election leaflet I recieved earlier on in the year.



I don't care what the BNP said. It's the best solution to the problem at this moment.


You seem to hav cottoned on to a right wing argument that once people are criminals, they are criminals for life.


If a guy rapes a women, shoot her dog and torture his husband, is he not "a criminal for life"?



It seems like these 'foreigners' are becoming criminals because of the situation they have to live in. If people looked at them in the streets like normal people, and not like potential rapists and thieves, maybe they would turn out differently.


No, they act like this because they are bastards. I'm was by principle nice to foreigners, but most people from poor, reactionary countries are not nice. Go and visit me for a week, I'll show you.

[h&s]

Foreign armies do exist.
One minute you say you won't have to fight them, next minute you saying you might. Which is it? And could socialism not be defended my an armed workers militia?


The soldiers in the old state will probably not be soldiers in the new socialist state.
And what are you going to do with them? Do you really think they'll be happy with being sacked and replaced? If you replace them, the odds are that they won't leave without a fight.


If the bourgeoise doesn't want socialsim, shouldn't we force them?
Yes, what's your point?


They are exploiting the third world. I don't consider the proletariat in the first world as... proletariat.
Well they're certainly not borgeoise, they're certainly not oppressors. They are being oppressed by the borgeoise just like the third world proletariat is.


And the alternative? Capitalism
I 'prefer' that to fascism.


Even if the country got a socialist government, there would be a lot of resistance from rightwingers. Should we not pacify rightwingers?

Idon't know. Whats that got to do with the price of fish?


If a guy rapes a women, shoot her dog and torture his husband, is he not "a criminal for life"?
I get it. The media in your country must be run by white racists, and they have decieded to feed the people with stories of foreigners doing bad stuff to make the people racist against them. Can't you see past this? People get raped and murdered in even numbers pretty much the world over.


No, they act like this because they are bastards. I'm was by principle nice to foreigners, but most people from poor, reactionary countries are not nice.
So you don't support the proletariat in the third world either? Which part of the working class do you like?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Why would you guys leave the EU?

[Commie Rat]

if we could control the EU we could turn all the western and estern bloc states into one then join up with russia and china and have mone than half of asia as communist

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Subversive Rob
You don't understand the situation because you don't live here. Most foreigners (excluding those from Western European nations) are VERY reactionary, violent people. They are raping Western women on a daily basis. Most of them hate us because we're not muslims. 50 percent of those in jail are foreigners.

I do not have anything against people outside the country (I have family in PAKISTAN). But these people that come here have only caused trouble.

The vast majority of crimes here is accomplished by foreigners. Generally, if you look at a foreigner between 17-24 you can be pretty damn sure he is a criminal. That's how bad the situation is.

Those who come here are generally from villages, where people are even more reactionary. Even hijackers and muslim rebel leaders have been welcomed to our country.

Norwegians are generally very peaceful people. If there is a fight, which is rare, people, most times, fight 1 vs. 1. The foreigners go 35 vs. 1, stab, rape, torture, or even kill, again, mostly against Norwegians because they don't respect us. They think of the women as hookers and the men as potential victims.

Because the situation is as bad as it is, the best solution, seeing it from what I've experienced, is to send these violent people out of the country in cages. They should be pleased that we're not executing them on the streets: A lot of them deserves it.


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:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Anti-Prophet]

I would ask to go on live television to address the nation and then shoot myself in the head on live TV! That would really blow some minds! :lol:

[leftist resistance]

Here's my thoughts
-Maintain relation with US but totally them (in other words,make a jest of em)
-Increase liberty of free speech
-Abolish prostitution and large-scale gambling
-Police made up of communal partisans to eliminate abuse of police power
-No more exploitation of women for ads


You don't understand the situation because you don't live here. Most foreigners (excluding those from Western European nations) are VERY reactionary, violent people. They are raping Western women on a daily basis. Most of them hate us because we're not muslims. 50 percent of those in jail are foreigners.

I do not have anything against people outside the country (I have family in PAKISTAN). But these people that come here have only caused trouble.

The vast majority of crimes here is accomplished by foreigners. Generally, if you look at a foreigner between 17-24 you can be pretty damn sure he is a criminal. That's how bad the situation is.

Those who come here are generally from villages, where people are even more reactionary. Even hijackers and muslim rebel leaders have been welcomed to our country.

Norwegians are generally very peaceful people. If there is a fight, which is rare, people, most times, fight 1 vs. 1. The foreigners go 35 vs. 1, stab, rape, torture, or even kill, again, mostly against Norwegians because they don't respect us. They think of the women as hookers and the men as potential victims.

Because the situation is as bad as it is, the best solution, seeing it from what I've experienced, is to send these violent people out of the country in cages. They should be pleased that we're not executing them on the streets: A lot of them deserves it.

I understand that some foreigners may misbehave,but that doesn't mean all foreigners are bad.

There are foreigners in my country.I must admit,some of them look at females in an uncomfortable way.That's some,not all.They are particularly a group of people trying to blend to local life.Thus,they may feel insecure that's why they usually go out in groups.

Perhaps Norwegians should learn to respect foreigners and treat them equally.

BTW rape is a serious offence for muslims,so is murder.

[PRC-UTE]

-Give Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland


Despite the fact that the majority of the people of N. Ireland don't want that?

So the 'majority' ( 55%) of a colonial state carved out of the rest of a territory with imperialist occupation is what is valid in your eyes?

More disturbing is the fact that you reject the nationalism of the Irish . . .who live in Ireland. But you accpet without question the nationalism of the British settlers who live in Ireland. You should seriously go read some Marx.

Since you probably have about as much knowledge of Irish geography as I do of Chinese, let me explain this to you: what is called 'Northern Ireland' ( a term we don't usually recognise; it's not even the northern most point of the country! :lol: ) makes up six counties of Ireland's 32.

The vast majority of the land is partially independent from England. The six county state is not a viable entity . . . and it's existence has sharply reduced the independence of the rest of the country. It has caused Ireland massive economic, immigration, human rights and political problems that are unsolveable as long as British rule continues.

I can't believe I see so many on the Left defend what had been for many years a one party state, then a directly-ruled colony, that has abused the working class like no other regime in Europe. You're disgusting.

[PRC-UTE]

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While we're at it, why don't we ban h&s for defending the Orange state of "northern" Ireland? He's sticking up for the most violent and undemocratic regime in w Europe.

I wonder if things like abu garib, ethnic clensing, rampant neo-nazism bothers him? the people of occupied Ireland have had over 80 years of that torture under the Orange state h&s loves so much. Does it not matter because the victims are Irish?

[BOZG]

Stop being ridiculous Oglach, what he said does not amount to supporting British Imperialism. This isn't a case of "One slogan fits all". Whether you care to acknowledge it, the majority of the population do not want a United Ireland, whether they're correct or not is irrelevant. A United Ireland under capitalism is not viable. Any attempt under current consciousness to unify Ireland will result in physical resistance unfortunately, something which you cannot dismiss. Calling for British troops out of Iraq is less complex issue because you have an invading army which is supported by a small minority of Iraqis, something which doesn't apply to Northern Ireland. The national question in Northern Ireland cannot be solved without solving class issues.

You mentioned the economic problems caused by the divide, something which I accept. The same economic problems will exist under a United capitalist Ireland. They will not disappear by moving the border. There's a strain on the Republic's economy as it is, unification would intensify that and it would change the opinions of armchair republicans.

[PRC-UTE]

I'm not being ridiculous. Sorry but I'll challenge people when they repeat imperialist propaganda, and that's what he's doing.


This isn't a case of "One slogan fits all".

Never said it was. I don't support the KLA, I wouldn't have supported the Afghans fighting the Soviets, etc.

I don't advocate independence for every small nation but analyse what effect this has in relation to the capitalist order. That's just basic Marxism. Karl himself saw Ireland as an important issue.


Stop being ridiculous Oglach, what he said does not amount to supporting British Imperialism.

If he argues that 'Northern' Ireland should not be smashed, what is he supporting? :rolleyes:


the majority of the population do not want a United Ireland,

That's not true. The problem is that people don't feel like they can do anything about it and/or don't see how it relates to their daily life. Polls have consistently shown that people want Ireland to be unified. In the south people want to see the Brits gone but don't know what to do about it. Some areas like parts of Cork are staunchly republican.


Any attempt under current consciousness to unify Ireland will result in physical resistance unfortunately, something which you cannot dismiss.

The Irish have resisted for 800 years. Sorry, don't see the people in the six who are Loyalists doing that to maintain a set of privelages that won't exist after reunification. And I have no doubt that the IR's could handle imperialist agents.


Calling for British troops out of Iraq is less complex issue because you have an invading army which is supported by a small minority of Iraqis, something which doesn't apply to Northern Ireland.

That's the same situation in Ireland. . . right now it's not as extreme due to the fact that neither the IR's nor the Brits could defeat each other, so we have the GFA. But it's the same basic story.


You mentioned the economic problems caused by the divide, something which I accept. The same economic problems will exist under a United capitalist Ireland. They will not disappear by moving the border. There's a strain on the Republic's economy as it is, unification would intensify that and it would change the opinions of armchair republicans.

That's what theory, but also keep in mind that the Free State spends more money to maintain the border than anyone else.

Also the theory being that if the Brits were driven out, it would be a shock to the British system like no other. And no republican group, with the exception of maybe the current leadership of the Provies, ever advocated creating a new Ireland that simply absorbed the north into the southern administration - rather the idea is to escape from the southern state.


The national question in Northern Ireland cannot be solved without solving class issues.

That's true, and that's always been the position of my party. But that doesn't make it correct for a leftist to defend the existence of the six county Orange state, which is the most reactionary in Europe and a parasite on the Irish people, both protestant and Catholic.

[BOZG]

It's not defending the existence of the state but actually addressing the grievances and worries of the majority community in the north. Poverty exists in both communities, exploitation exists in both communities, something which Republicans have a habit of forgetting and pointing out the priviledges of the 'loyalists'.