Police Unions

[Red Heretic]

What do you guys think, should police be allowed to unionize?

[Funky Monk]

In my opinion any profession should be allowed to unionise, the question is, would it serve much point? The teacher's union and others amongst the Civil service seem to be pretty innefective at times.

[Pawn Power]

Is it really necessary, they are already unified. And do we really want them to have more influence. Speaking from the United States, there is a tremendous amount of police corruption and endless accounts of police brutality. They already have the support of the government and are practically immune to the law.

[redstar2000]

De facto police unions already exist in the United States -- they're usually called "Police Benevolent Societies".

They are not "bargaining units" under the provisions of the Wagner Act and don't sign formal contracts...but informally they act as if they were.

From a political/ideological viewpoint, they are fascist outfits.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[h&s]

The only thing i've heard of police unions is when the police union in Philadelphia adivised its members not to take overtime to police a RATM gig because Rage donates money to Mumia Abu Jamal.

[Red Heretic]

wasn't the boston police strike during the Red Scare led by a union? and all the police were accused of being communists?

[BOZG]

I actually started this same topic over a year ago but only two people replied unfortunately as I think it's an important dicussion not just about unionisation but also about the role of the police and armed forces in society now and in a revolutionary situation.

Previous thread (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16472&hl=state+forces)

The common perspective about the police is that they are a necessary part of society. They are the self-sacrificing people who agree to protect society from harm, to catch the bad guys, to help little old ladies cross the road etc. etc. Most people accept that there's a 'small number' of police involved in racial discrimination, police brutuality, police corruption but dismiss it as an inevitability. And everything is perfect. What most people don't realise is the role played by the police (and army) in preserving and maintaining the capitalist order and its' rule. As Engels described, they are 'armed bodies of men', the men and women who are used, in reality, to protect private property, to break the strikes, to frame-up the revolutionaries, ultimately to crush the working class when they're needed to. We might not see this side to the police forces out in the open but history has shown it, time and time again.

I think this role quite firmly puts the police forces in the position of a class enemy. I don't doubt that many people who sign up to become police do so for 'good' reasons, 'To Protect and Serve" as the American slogan goes. But most misunderstand who exactly they're protecting and serving. Using ignorance as an excuse is no more plausible than Germany or American troops claiming that they 'were only following orders' though and cannot be condoned. Unfortunately though many cops still do no see their real role played in capitalism, though possibly recognising some minor points of it but seeing as a side effect rather than a direct result. They also do not understand that they are merely pawns used by the bourgeoisie, that they are tools of the capitalist state, exploited just like the rest of us but in a different manner but nonetheless, still a class enemy.

We know the role played by the police but where does the idea for unionisation come from? Why would anyone argue to advance the conditions of our class enemy? As I said in the previous thread, a lot of police recruits do come from working class and middle-class backgrounds. They could be your brother or sister, neighbour, your best friend. They were 'one of the guys' at one point. In different circumstances, they could be you. So why not show a little solidarity with your brothers and sisters? After all, they're just workers too, they're exploited too.

Many have argued that while they recognise that the police are a tool of the state used to crush working class power, that arguing for unionisation will result in increased class consciousness, a better sense of solidarity with the working class and a better understanding of their own exploitation. But is this the reality? It would be nice to think so but this argument is quite loosely based on events in history where the police or at least sections actually sided with the working class in revolutionary situations and on perceptions that this is somehow an objective situation. It's an argument that the police will always do this but can we take the risk that it will always happen. I'm sure that there will be sections of the police who would side with the workers but how many will, we cannot say nor can we wager guesses. There will also be many who will side with the state. So is it right to advance the conditions of the 'armed bodies of men' in the hope that some will switch sides. I think it's a very dangerous move and should be opposed completely.

Even the logic as to the raising of class consciousness is quite flawed. At the point where police officers would be of the consciousness to be considered workers, then does it not logically follow that they would negate their role in society by refusing to serve as an officer?

[Rasta Sapian]

unionized police? social revolutions?

many governmental departments and labour forces have their own unions: these unions are responsible for wage recongnition, ethical issues and to stop further exploitation of the police(s)

Police do have different associations, etc. but that has nothing to really do with the role of unionized labour. Can you imagine what would happen if a local 420 union desided to go on strike, that would just never happen, and that is also why police forces do not have to be unionized. Police are paid better than most government workers, complete with benifets and yearly raises.

p.s. fuck the police

I didn't really mean that :P

[Red Heretic]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 17 2004, 10:07 PM
unionized police? social revolutions?

many governmental departments and labour forces have their own unions: these unions are responsible for wage recongnition, ethical issues and to stop further exploitation of the police(s)

Police do have different associations, etc. but that has nothing to really do with the role of unionized labour. Can you imagine what would happen if a local 420 union desided to go on strike, that would just never happen, and that is also why police forces do not have to be unionized. Police are paid better than most government workers, complete with benifets and yearly raises.

p.s. fuck the police

I didn't really mean that :P
It already has happened... look up the Boston police strikes during the Red Scare.

[rainyday]

Police

I think we need to do away with the entire idea of police all together

Thats what I think

And while we're at it ......................

[SonofRage]

I think most police are in unions. I don't believe we should support them in their struggles.

They are "class traitors," supporting their strike won't stop them from busting heads during yours.

[STI]

The police in my city have an "association". They 'bargain', but, from what an officer has told me, they can't strike and don't use their labour-power as leverage in said bargains.

The prison guards' union (part of the Ontario Public Service Employees Union) really, REALLY doesn't like the police association (apparantly, the police showed up to "keep an eye" on the prison strike a while ago (there's even tension at the college between corrections students and students in "Police Foundations").

[BOZG]

Continuing from ST said, should we support Prison Officers' unions?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

No! Be they organized in unions or otherwise, we ought to do whatever is within our power to underine the police at every turn. If they are un-unionized and poorly paid . . . good! Let's make the role of police-officer as unnattractive as posible.
While individual police officers might be sympathetic to our struggles, the institution must be destroyed.

Would we stand in solidarity with a union of bourgeoisie politicians? Fuck no!
And why would we stand up in defense of those same motherfuckers' tools of violent repression?

[STI]

Well put, VMC. I've had to wrestle with that problem for a while, for a series of different reasons.

Most profound of which goes back to the beginnings of my "reformist days". I was starting to get involved in the horseshit NDP, and the Labour Rep. on the Riding Association Executive was a prison guard. At this point, he was the most extreme leftist I'd ever met in real-life...so he couldn't be all that bad, right?

Wrong. He's still working against the working class, it doesn't matter how left-bourgeois he is.