How we could cause a change

[inquisitive_socialist]

Ive got a great idea! what if little by little, we were to become police. the massive influx of commies and socialists would be enough to reshape the police force. Then if people have a problem with the cops they could actually get something done about it.just an idea/rant. im alittle hyper sorry. :blink:

[RedAnarchist]

Would these "Red Police" be able to hide their views? Anyway, in the UK police officers have to swear alligience to the Queen - a very detestable prospect for any true communist.

Edit - why is this in OI?

[inquisitive_socialist]

The idea is that these red police would not have to hide their views. If you can't be a bobby without that pledge, don't be a bobby. Be a fireman, a coastguard, something to cause some change! I posted it here because this seems to be the right place to post it. However, if it gets moved, it will problably be moved to politics or theory. I didn't really think of those options when i came up with the idea for this post. sorry.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Because, making up the majority of the violent arm of bourgeoisie oppression will benefit the working class how? As if vanguardism hadn't been discredited, a vanguard of police? Actually, it seems oddly appropriate, doesn't it? Never mind smashing the old state machinery, just put a red star over the old NYPD crest and call it a worker's state.

*Shudder*

[niwi]

It can't just be reformed like that. It must be dismantled.

[inquisitive_socialist]

and what do you think has a chance of suceeding? the dismantlement of the police force or the conversion of the police force. I also disagree that vanguardism is moot. what do you call the group that starts the revolution. the vanguard of the revolution. I live in the us and i know that a military revolt WILL NOT happen. The only way two ways to bring about change are to 1) get a socialist/communist prez and change it from the top down or 2) convert the lowest rungs of the bourgeoisie to the cause of the people. Cops are people too and to suggest that they don't also feel the injustices of the capitalist system simply because they work for it is like saying social workers should be treated like pigs because they're also part of the bourgeoisie. Im not suggesting some Orwellian form of dictatorship by the people, im suggesting what i consider to be a viable ( and much more possible ) approach to revolution in America. i see nothing wrong with viewing the police as a tool of the people but it seems as if your all set on typecasting them in some sort of demonic role similar the Hitler's SS. The good cops in the system are just as fed up as you, you simply need to change the system and put them in a position to enact change. Look at this like a virus, or more accurately, a bacteria. We infect the system of beorgoisie capitalism, and then we change it from the inside out. If we start with the equivalent of the systems antibodies, we hopefully prevent any violent reaction to the change.

EDIT- why does it have to be the violent arm of the bourgiosie? if we are the majority then we control it, hence no violence.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

There already is Socialist and Communist press in the US. People don't read them and why should they? They are the papers of a lost and evil ideology.

Changing things from the top down is a myth, concerning Communist and Socialist revolutions.

It would require participation in elections. Achieving success in elections would mean vast quantities of money for election campaigns and "friends in high places". We don't have the money to waste on fake elections nor are there Communists or even leftists in high places. The bourgeoisie makes sure that communists and socialists don't reach high places.

Converting the "lowest ranks" of the bourgeoisie. I do not think that factory owners, bank managers and company owners become more compassionate to our cause if they are poorer. Rather they are more interested in participating in the system and trying to get richer then the others.

There are no class conscious "good" cops. Simply because a class conscious person dedicated to our cause, wouldn't join the police. The police are the "campgaurds" of the people. Rather it's their goal to smash down revolutions and keep the people "in line".

A self-respecting revolutionary would never join the cops!

Social workers are not bourgeoisie. They are members of the proletariat.


Im not suggesting some Orwellian form of dictatorship by the people.

Orwell didn't suggest a dictatorship by the people, but over the people.

Let's rather take it by the roots of our cause; the proletariat. Start talking to them, instead of cops or bourgeoisie.

And indeed, we the proletariat are the majority. The problem is that most people are not class-conscious. They believe in the Capitalist fairy tale.

Edit: Spelling

[inquisitive_socialist]

The factory owners would be more willing to hear us out than some head CEO of a major corporation. If we don't convert the police to our side, ANY form of revolution is doomed. how can you expect to organise a resistance to anything if the police body is dedicated to its removal? If we can convert the police to our cause, a revolution wouldn't have to deal with the same impedance it normally would. Also, in 1984, Orwell said that the government ran the "Party" by claiming to represent the pople or as marx put it, a dictator of and by the proletariat. You cant expect to bring about any social change without the support of both the people and the lower level echelons of the bourgiosie. This is a bad example but it was with the police support that Hitler took power in Germany. I am not promoting the creation of a nazi state, but a socialist state. With the police supporting the people, it is much less difficult to protest, to hold meetings, to arrange strikes. Without the support of a majority of one or more armed services, you cannot stage a sucessful revolution. The police are a more viable target than the Army or Navy. Do you honestly think that the "red" police as a majority would wield such little power? We all talk about the powers and abuses of policemen but if we were the policemen, then there would be no abuses of power, We would control the power!

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

No, really the factory owners do not want to be Communists. They want to get richer! If they were interested in the cause, then they wouldn't be exploiting workers.

There is no such thing as the "lower ranks of bourgeoisie". They are all trying to "make" money out of the labor of workers. From Bill Gates to your own boss, it's their purpose to make money out of your labor. Your boss is no more interested in overthrowing his own class then Bill Gates is.

Try converting your boss and he will most likely (try) to fire you. The bourgeoisie doesn't want to have Communists on the work floor, Communists are bond to create "difficulties" for them. That's why Governments keep blacklists of active leftists and especially Communists.



How we can have success without converting the police or the lower ranks of bourgeoisie?

Simple, the exploited are always the majority. We outnumber the police and bourgeoisie and not just a bit. "All" we need to do is educating the proletariat.

Even if you convert the police and bourgeoisie, it still wouldn't have any use. Because every society bases on the proletariat, every society needs to have the proletariat on their side. As long as we don't have the proletariat on our side, we have nothing.

Good luck in converting the police. As I may use your own example of viruses and anti-viruses.

The viruses will get killed when trying to affect the anti-viruses. What we need to do is turning the red blood cells aka the people against their oppressors.

But lets not use this example further, it's not a very good comparison to real life.

[redstar2000]

The Social Role of the Police (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082819752&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)


Originally posted by inquisitive_socialist
I live in the us and i know that a military revolt WILL NOT happen.

Your ability to foresee the future is admirable...would you care to predict the winner of the next superbowl so I can get my bet down early.

Neither you nor anyone can predict the future in useful detail. Two are three unsuccessful imperialist wars "all at once" could very well provoke a military rebellion. It's a "long shot" but by no means "impossible".


Cops are people too...

:lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[cormacobear]

I'm certain there are lots of police who agree withlaft wing philosophies, after all they see the worst of the poverty every day. They are also generally quite aware that the only effective way to reduce crime is to reduce poverty.

Policemen come from lower and middle class families almost exclusively. I am certain most police sit right of center, but not all. I think trying to swing them to the left is a great idea, it would be wonderfull if the police one day refused to put on their riot gear and stop people from protesting social injustices. I don't think it will ever happen, but it would be nice to not have to face their bullets should a revolution occur.

I don't think I could reconcile being a police officer with my beleifs. They are,after all, essentially required to arrest the poor for the things they do because they're poor.

[DaCuBaN]

I wouldn't count on it, corma...


I went back to my post on the roof with a feeling of concentrated disgust and fury. When you are taking part in events like these you are, I suppose, in a small way, making history, and you ought by rights to feel like a historical character. But you never do, because at such times the physical details always outweigh everything else. Throughout the fighting I never made the correct ‘analysis’ of the situation that was so glibly made by journalists hundreds of miles away. What I was chiefly thinking about was not the rights and wrongs of this miserable internecine scrap, but simply the discomfort and boredom of sitting day and night on that intolerable roof, and the hunger which was growing worse and worse—for none of us had had a proper meal since Monday. It was in my mind all the while that I should have to go back to the front as soon as this business was over. It was infuriating. I had been a hundred and fifteen days in the line and had come back to Barcelona ravenous for a bit of rest and comfort; and instead I had to spend my time sitting on a roof opposite Civil Guards as bored as myself, who periodically waved to me and assured me that they were ‘workers’ (meaning that they hoped I would not shoot them), but who would certainly open fire if they got the order to do so. If this was history it did not feel like it. It was more like a bad period at the front, when men were short and we had to do abnormal hours of guard-duty; instead of being heroic one just had to stay at one’s post, bored, dropping with sleep, and completely uninterested as to what it was all about.

http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/books/hom...atalonia-10.htm (http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/books/homagetocatalonia-10.htm)

Even during a revolution, even when they know what the "enemy" is fighting for, you will receive no support there.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Even though some individual police might identify with revolutionary goals, the police, as an insitution, represent the interests of the bourgeoisie, and no individual, in the context of acting as a police officer can be radical. The same applies to owners - while, come a revolutionary situation, there may be some individuals who support the overthrow of current society, they will do so not as members of the owning class, but as individuals (With their property in the hands of the working class, how can they do anything as owners? :P). Similarly, the most a police force can do in a revolutionary situation is to not act as the police - an individual must reject one's role a violent arm of the state. As such, attempting to reform the police force is ridiculous, and irrelevent - we must smash it.

I can't concentrate right now - I'll post later.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If you are a decent human being, then you will not want to associate yourself with those sadistic fascist pieces of shit:

Pigs Taser 12 year old girl and 6 year old boy (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30389)