The worker is screwed by the company

[Nyder]

That's the way business works. If people were paid the market rate for their services then no business would hire you. Then of course the government gets their greedy mits into your wages and you have your typical 'wage slave'.

It sucks but what are you going to do? Shut down every business with state troopers and turn everyone into starving peasants?

Go into business yourself - it's the only way. Work for the pricks for as long as you can save enough and get a good credit rating then go into business yourself and get the full value of your product.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

And revert to a pre-industrial small farmer/artisan based economy? Who are you, Ned Ludd? Why not simply put control of the businesses into the direct hands of the workers?

It's late . . . somebody please elaborate for me?

[revolutionindia]

The reason why workers are exploited is just a case of supply and demand

Today there exist 6 billion people on this planet and a large percentage of them are workers

The fact is supply of workers is more than the need and with the increase in mechanisation and the capitlaists never ending quest for efficiency there has been a constant reduction in the number of jobs avialble

The problem is there are desperate people ever ready to compromise on the pay so that they can survive to live for tommorow

These people are exploited by greedy opputunistic people to bring pressure on the wage structure and thus ensure that wages never rise while profits can flow limitlessly

ExxonMobil made 22billion $ in profits last year go figure out whose blood was spilt for this.....

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Virgin Molotov [email protected] 9 2004, 06:29 AM
Why not simply put control of the businesses into the direct hands of the workers?
Because I have no desire to go back into the stone age.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 07:01 AM
The fact is supply of workers is more than the need and with the increase in mechanisation and the capitlaists never ending quest for efficiency there has been a constant reduction in the number of jobs avialble

The problem is there are desperate people ever ready to compromise on the pay so that they can survive to live for tommorow

These people are exploited by greedy opputunistic people to bring pressure on the wage structure and thus ensure that wages never rise while profits can flow limitlessly
So in other words, technology and labour saving devices are a "threat" worker's jobs. Who was it that didn't want to revert to the pre-industrial era, again ?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Nyder, glad that you have this insight. Why not abolish the whole circus and search for alternatives?


Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 9 2004, 10:21 PM
Because I have no desire to go back into the stone age.
Rubbish!

Workers are perfectly capable of running the entire economy and even more efficient.

It's kinda hard to imagine for someone who has never done anything independently. But, yes, even you're capable of cooperation with other people, organizing and even taking initiative.

I take as example, the Anarchist collectives of Spain 1936. The workers managed to built an efficient industry and farming, while at war.

[gaf]

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 9 2004, 09:21 PM
Because I have no desire to go back into the stone age.
because of inconsequents bastaard like you we are going back to stone age .so what's your point monney bag
keepin up privileges or gettin a new natural selection

[Professor Moneybags]

Rubbish!

Workers are perfectly capable of running the entire economy and even more efficient.

"The economy" runs itself.


It's kinda hard to imagine for someone who has never done anything independently. But, yes, even you're capable of cooperation with other people, organizing and even taking initiative.

I'm the only one fit to cooperate with other people. That's because I don't advocate the initiation of force.


because of inconsequents bastaard like you we are going back to stone age

Please explain in more detail.

[gaf]

Please explain in more detail.


you agree you spoke first about it .so without rethoric hence your stone age version i will hence mine

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

That's because I don't advocate the initiation of force.

Y'know, call me crazy, but I'm going to say allowing the productive capacity and goods of the world to be monopolized by a small minority, who protects this monopoly by force . . .


"The economy" runs itself.

Seriously, get over yr high school Economics 11 class - the distribution of goods, to some degree might co-ordinate itself (Mind you, I'm going to say that those of us living below the poverty line don't feel it's doing a very good job), the actual matter of producing wealth, and the "running" of the production of wealth is VERY MUCH in the (visible) hands of people.


So in other words, technology and labour saving devices are a "threat" worker's jobs.

Indeed, in the current context, they are, which is abolutely fucking rediculous! We need to build a sensible system in which the steady reduction in terms of necessary work is a good thing, rather than a promise of poverty!

[Osman Ghazi]

"The economy" runs itself.


Really? And here I thought it was God. Oh well, you learn new things everyday, ya?

But seriously, over-simplify much?

The economy runs because each human being in it does his job. So, if each person continues to do their job, whether they are bossed around by the few, or whether they make the decisions themselves, the economy will run either way.

[Nyder]

People....

Go into business yourself - that's the way to make the real money. Working for other people sucks. I acknowledge that. Giving power to a communist dictator won't make things any better.

State capitalism is designed to screw the workers so that companies can enjoy greater profits and bureaucrats can exert greater control.

For example - where I'm from a taxi licence costs $200000. This ridiculous fee was obviously designed to keep the two monopoly corporations dominating the industry in high profit margins while anyone else has absolutely no chance.

However, I'm not advocating abolishing state capitalism (I don't have enough machine guns). Just operate outside the system.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Why try to rip off others? And why let a "Communist" dictator take power?


The economy runs itself

it's running alright, but running to what?

[Professor Moneybags]

Y'know, call me crazy, but I'm going to say allowing the productive capacity and goods of the world to be monopolized by a small minority, who protects this monopoly by force . . .

"Productive capacity" lies inside everyone's body and mind and remains theirs to sell and dispose of as they please. How this be "monopolized", except by claiming other's work and money as a right ?


Seriously, get over yr high school Economics 11 class - the distribution of goods, to some degree might co-ordinate itself (Mind you, I'm going to say that those of us living below the poverty line don't feel it's doing a very good job), the actual matter of producing wealth, and the "running" of the production of wealth is VERY MUCH in the (visible) hands of people.

Production, like trade, is in the hands of those voluntarily engaging in it. Is this the arrangement you have a problem with ?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 9 2004, 10:21 PM
Because I have no desire to go back into the stone age.
No, only as far as the middle ages, aye?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:32 PM
No, only as far as the middle ages, aye?
Funnily enough, I've lost count of the number of communists I've debated with in the past who have likened their utopia to a "medieval village".

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 10 2004, 02:45 PM
Funnily enough, I've lost count of the number of communists I've debated with in the past who have likened their utopia to a "medieval village".
Thankfully for you your not talking to either a communist nor an idiot. I study medieval history at degree level, and I for one would not care to live in one.

[Akiva Rothschild]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Nov 9 2004, 09:38 PM
Rubbish!

Workers are perfectly capable of running the entire economy and even more efficient.

It's kinda hard to imagine for someone who has never done anything independently. But, yes, even you're capable of cooperation with other people, organizing and even taking initiative.

I take as example, the Anarchist collectives of Spain 1936. The workers managed to built an efficient industry and farming, while at war.
What, exactly, is stopping workers from doing that now? If I wanted, I could go out and start a worker run business right now. A bunch of hardworking people could get together, pool their savings and create a company.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Ignorance

[Trump_$$$]

Dude, you completely lost them after the word 'That's'.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Nov 14 2004, 11:58 PM
Ignorance
...and all of the other legal stumbling blocks the government has put in the way of people starting a business.

[Osman Ghazi]

"Productive capacity" lies inside everyone's body and mind and remains theirs to sell and dispose of as they please. How this be "monopolized", except by claiming other's work and money as a right ?


Yes, part of 'productive capacity' lies in man. But, unless you plan to fashion things with your bare hands, you recognize the need for tools and these can be monopolized easily (though oligopolized would be more accurate.)


Production, like trade, is in the hands of those voluntarily engaging in it. Is this the arrangement you have a problem with ?

Yes, but they are participating in it not only because they have the will, but the capacity (read:money) to as well.

The arrangement VMC disagrees with is that some people are born with the capacity and others aren't.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Nov 16 2004, 04:17 PM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Nov 16 2004, 04:17 PM)
Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Nov 14 2004, 11:58 PM
Ignorance
...and all of the other legal stumbling blocks the government has put in the way of people starting a business. [/b]
That's because currently the government works for the monopolies. Who do you think funds their campaigns? Who do you think controls the mass media?