redstar2000
9th November 2004, 03:25
I did not spend a quarter of a century in the military, serving two combat tours in ‘Nam, one in Grenada, and one in the Noreiga fiasco plus many intel ops, to listen to people bad mouth our Nation, our People, our political system.
Then shut your ears, war criminal!
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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Well, redstar2000, at least I am brave enough to commit my life to a cause, even to the point of giving my life for it...
Sorry, that cuts no ice, war criminal.
Physical courage is as common as dirt; name any "cause" and you'll find people willing to "commit their lives even unto death" for it.
It's what you commit to that counts.
You committed yourself to mass murder for the greater glory of U.S. imperialism.
In particular, I take it that you personally dropped bombs on the Vietnamese...a method of "combat" that is indistinguishable from serial killing.
Hey, hey, hey, hey,
How many kids did you kill today?
If you support marxism...
Karl Marx never killed a single person. Neither have I.
But you've killed quite a few, haven't you? Was the money good? Was it a lot of fun?
Did it make you feel like a "real man"? Like a "warrior"?
Or were you "just doing your job"? (The German translation is "we were just carrying out our orders.")
Not that it matters. You're still a war criminal.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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Redstar -- where the hell did that come from?
It came from here...
2 tours and 428 combat mission Forward Air Control - does that make me a hero too?
What do you think he was dropping on the Vietnamese...leaflets?
Originally posted by webmaster
That kind of personal attack is beyond my tolerance level.
Knock it off - now!
If someone came to this board and said, "I was an SS concentration camp guard and personally participated in 428 massacres" and someone else expressed their condemnation of a person who would do that, would your response still be "knock off the personal attacks"?
Is it "ok" to attack war criminals as long as you don't name them?
Or do you think that Americans are "never" war criminals?
Or at least not any Americans that you personally know?
...but us "old timers" know him for the great guy he is.
He's a "great guy" who just happens to have murdered a bunch of Vietnamese on the orders of his imperialist government.
What's a little napalm "between friends"?
Redstar,
Go fuck yourself. Who the fuck do you think you are?!
A guy who tells the truth...even when it pisses people off. And it often does.
Now, "who the fuck do you think you are?!"
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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I'm all for banning redstar now.
Thanks for your support.
I'm one combat vet that is gratified that these folks can still *****, without being put in jail or worse.
Many people in the United States were "put in jail" for "*****ing" about the war against Vietnam (including myself)...as they have been for "*****ing" about the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.
So far, no modern anti-war protester has yet been killed. In 1970, four unarmed protesters were shot and killed by the Ohio National Guard and many were wounded. Three kids were also killed in Jackson, Mississippi, and three more in Orangeburg, South Carolina. 27 members of the Black Panther Party were murdered by various police agencies in the late 60s and early 70s.
Over 2,000 peaceful and unarmed protesters were recently arrested at the Republican National Convention for "*****ing".
Your gratification is misplaced.
However, I much doubt that Vietnam (or any of our wars since WWII) had anything to do with securing freedom for anyone...
Not a thing.
I didn't volunteer to preserve a government, but to preserve the freedom of my people and "I thought" to gain it for another people, but then I was a stupid kid.
Youthful follies can be overcome -- the members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War played an extraordinarily honorable role in the anti-war movement.
But their numbers were too few.
I love the good old USA...
But it doesn't love you.
You should not love things that can't love you back.
...you think a man or woman who puts his or her life on the line for the security and safety of the country is just doing a job?
I've heard military personnel say that -- "we're just doing our job" -- both during the 1960s and today.
And what is this crap about "the security and safety of the country"? It's a fucking EMPIRE!
Those people are out there every day, staring down the barrels of guns over and over for US to SIT HERE ON OUR FAT ASSES and ***** about the country!
No, they are "staring down gun barrels" for the sake of oil barrels.
So far, the estimates of civilian deaths in Iraq are between 15,000 and 100,000.
Something to be "proud" of, right?
...if you don't like what's going on, get your lazy arse out of the house, do something, go talk to people, write letters to congressmen, write a letter to DUBYA himself, even!
But you haven't done that, have you? No, you've just sat here and insulted a man who helped keep your bloody mother alive so she could birth you, fucker.
Yeah, the Vietnamese were about to land at Santa Monica and kill my mother. LOL!
Now, as to my "lazy ass", I went on my first anti-war demonstration in 1961...it's funny to look at the photos from those days because we all wore suits and ties to "look respectable". In 1962, I beat the draft entirely (without going to jail or to Canada). From 1965 to 1970, I worked full-time for SDS (in the South no less) and also had a "day job". During the 1970s and early 1980s, I wrote for and helped to publish several underground newspapers.
Then I got old (dammit!)...and now I just drag my feeble carcass to the keyboard.
We do what we can do.
(Writing letters to capitalist politicians is a waste of effort...unless you enclose a very large check.)
Now, let's talk about the German translation 'we were just following our orders.' To equate our military, who are truly trying to save our lives, with a military whose only purpose was to kill anyone who didn't fit into acceptably insane standards of aesthetics and religion...that's not a fair comparison, to say the least.
It's completely fair...unless you wish to argue that the Iraqi Marines were about to storm the beaches of Long Island.
These arguments that you raise -- the American mercenaries are "defending us" -- are fundamentally moronic. It is simply inconceivable that either Vietnam or Iraq was ever a credible military threat to the United States.
The purpose of the U.S. military has, in fact, always been aggressive. The rhetoric about "self-defense" has never been anything more than a pack of lies.
Lastly, I'd simply like to tell you this. There are many of us on these boards who have ties to Vietnam. My ex-fiancee's father, along with being my favorite atheist in the world, was in Vietnam. The man is 70+ years old now and still has nightmares about the things he did and the things he saw.
Maybe he should write down what he did and what he saw...and publish it.
I'm sure there are lots of people walking around with bad memories...things that "can't be told" because civilized people would find them disgusting.
I'm also sure there are lots of Vietnamese who "still" have nightmares...over what was done to them.
You're an insipid, vile little rat for saying those things to [Mr. War Criminal] and you owe him more than an apology. To be truthful, you owe him (and the other fellows and ladies who've enlisted) your life.
He will receive neither. But it will be interesting to learn if your mouth is writing checks that your ass can't cash. If you volunteer for occupation duty in Iraq or elsewhere, I'll send a bouquet to your memorial service.
Stinkweed would be appropriate, I think.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This was one famous saying that I always admired, growing up
"I may not agree with whay you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."
One of the French enlightenment philosophers said it. But if I'm not mistaken, he was lying; he lived very close to the Swiss border and at the slightest hint of royal displeasure, he was on the other side.
He didn't even "defend to the death" his own "right to say it".
I won't give the details, but I did a few war crimes myself up close and personal.. So you can add me to your list if you care to.
Consider yourself added.
How about those "details"? Rape? Torture? Killing women and children?
Don't you feel a "moral obligation" to tell the "youngsters" here about what America is really like?
SS concentration camp guards were a part of a group of people that murdered Jews, gays, etc. simply because of who they were. We were at war with the vietnamese. If you don't see the difference than you are just as stupid as I thought.
Gee, I must have missed the "declaration of war"...guess I didn't see that day's paper.
When was it? And did the Vietnamese "bomb Pearl Harbor" or what?
Also, there were parts of Vietnam that were designated, if I remember correctly, as "free fire zones"...meaning American troops could kill any Vietnamese in such a zone.
Just for being Vietnamese.
[Mr. War Criminal] is more of a man than you will ever be.
I'm glad you said that about him and not me. I would find support from someone like yourself extremely embarrassing.
If someone came to this board and said, "I was an SS concentration camp guard and personally participated in 428 massacres" and they didn't want to talk about it due to the pain it caused them to just think about it...then yes, I would tell a piece of shit like you to knock off the personal attacks.
Awww...what a sweetie you are.
Never mind the pain of the victims...what about the pain of the executioner?
I think you should start a support-group for war criminals.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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Do you really think men and women in the military service can choose where to go and what to do?
Yes I do. They are armed.
That means they can turn their weapons on their officers any time they feel suitably motivated.
Guess who wins any armed conflict between soldiers and officers?
The real American heroes in Vietnam were the ones who fragged their officers. If only there had been more of them!
Just as the real heroes in the Third Reich were those who deserted and resisted.
It's not a single enlistee's fault that we're in the middle east right now.
I never said or implied that.
What I do say is that if you find yourself trapped in an imperialist war, then you have an obligation to resist -- presuming you wish to continue considering yourself a decent human being.
That means you disobey orders (openly or covertly), encourage other soldiers to do the same, desert, kill your officers if possible, video-tape war crimes and smuggle the tapes to the world press...whatever it takes to expose what's really going on.
Here's one of the tiny number of Biblical quotations that I've found to actually be true...
He that doeth evil hateth the light.
But let's go live in your fictional world for a few moments. Let's say the people in the services all went AWOL right now and for the next 10 years no one enlisted.
What do you think would happen?
I actually expect something along those lines to happen...as the immediate prelude to proletarian revolution.
When the Petrograd garrisons went over to the revolution, 300 years of czarist despotism went down the toilet in days.
The 300th birthday of the American Empire will be 2076...so, if we're going to do better than the Russians, it's time to go to work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I was more than willing to continue this controversy, the webmaster -- "Dave" -- cut me down with this post...
Your desire to hijack this site and make some political pundit soapbox of it for YOUR personal agenda, whatever that is, is contrary to the site's clearly stated purpose.
Your posts reflect a desire to make this board into some sort of anti-American political soapbox. That is unacceptable.
Knock it off as requested or you will be banned.
He later added...
This site was set up to encourage those leaving Christianity, those who feel alone and cut off with no one to talk to about it. That is its only reason for existing.
Dave "Feel-Good" clearly did not want anyone to "feel bad" about U.S. imperialism or the deeds of those who serve it.
:redstar2000:
The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
Then shut your ears, war criminal!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, redstar2000, at least I am brave enough to commit my life to a cause, even to the point of giving my life for it...
Sorry, that cuts no ice, war criminal.
Physical courage is as common as dirt; name any "cause" and you'll find people willing to "commit their lives even unto death" for it.
It's what you commit to that counts.
You committed yourself to mass murder for the greater glory of U.S. imperialism.
In particular, I take it that you personally dropped bombs on the Vietnamese...a method of "combat" that is indistinguishable from serial killing.
Hey, hey, hey, hey,
How many kids did you kill today?
If you support marxism...
Karl Marx never killed a single person. Neither have I.
But you've killed quite a few, haven't you? Was the money good? Was it a lot of fun?
Did it make you feel like a "real man"? Like a "warrior"?
Or were you "just doing your job"? (The German translation is "we were just carrying out our orders.")
Not that it matters. You're still a war criminal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Redstar -- where the hell did that come from?
It came from here...
2 tours and 428 combat mission Forward Air Control - does that make me a hero too?
What do you think he was dropping on the Vietnamese...leaflets?
Originally posted by webmaster
That kind of personal attack is beyond my tolerance level.
Knock it off - now!
If someone came to this board and said, "I was an SS concentration camp guard and personally participated in 428 massacres" and someone else expressed their condemnation of a person who would do that, would your response still be "knock off the personal attacks"?
Is it "ok" to attack war criminals as long as you don't name them?
Or do you think that Americans are "never" war criminals?
Or at least not any Americans that you personally know?
...but us "old timers" know him for the great guy he is.
He's a "great guy" who just happens to have murdered a bunch of Vietnamese on the orders of his imperialist government.
What's a little napalm "between friends"?
Redstar,
Go fuck yourself. Who the fuck do you think you are?!
A guy who tells the truth...even when it pisses people off. And it often does.
Now, "who the fuck do you think you are?!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm all for banning redstar now.
Thanks for your support.
I'm one combat vet that is gratified that these folks can still *****, without being put in jail or worse.
Many people in the United States were "put in jail" for "*****ing" about the war against Vietnam (including myself)...as they have been for "*****ing" about the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.
So far, no modern anti-war protester has yet been killed. In 1970, four unarmed protesters were shot and killed by the Ohio National Guard and many were wounded. Three kids were also killed in Jackson, Mississippi, and three more in Orangeburg, South Carolina. 27 members of the Black Panther Party were murdered by various police agencies in the late 60s and early 70s.
Over 2,000 peaceful and unarmed protesters were recently arrested at the Republican National Convention for "*****ing".
Your gratification is misplaced.
However, I much doubt that Vietnam (or any of our wars since WWII) had anything to do with securing freedom for anyone...
Not a thing.
I didn't volunteer to preserve a government, but to preserve the freedom of my people and "I thought" to gain it for another people, but then I was a stupid kid.
Youthful follies can be overcome -- the members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War played an extraordinarily honorable role in the anti-war movement.
But their numbers were too few.
I love the good old USA...
But it doesn't love you.
You should not love things that can't love you back.
...you think a man or woman who puts his or her life on the line for the security and safety of the country is just doing a job?
I've heard military personnel say that -- "we're just doing our job" -- both during the 1960s and today.
And what is this crap about "the security and safety of the country"? It's a fucking EMPIRE!
Those people are out there every day, staring down the barrels of guns over and over for US to SIT HERE ON OUR FAT ASSES and ***** about the country!
No, they are "staring down gun barrels" for the sake of oil barrels.
So far, the estimates of civilian deaths in Iraq are between 15,000 and 100,000.
Something to be "proud" of, right?
...if you don't like what's going on, get your lazy arse out of the house, do something, go talk to people, write letters to congressmen, write a letter to DUBYA himself, even!
But you haven't done that, have you? No, you've just sat here and insulted a man who helped keep your bloody mother alive so she could birth you, fucker.
Yeah, the Vietnamese were about to land at Santa Monica and kill my mother. LOL!
Now, as to my "lazy ass", I went on my first anti-war demonstration in 1961...it's funny to look at the photos from those days because we all wore suits and ties to "look respectable". In 1962, I beat the draft entirely (without going to jail or to Canada). From 1965 to 1970, I worked full-time for SDS (in the South no less) and also had a "day job". During the 1970s and early 1980s, I wrote for and helped to publish several underground newspapers.
Then I got old (dammit!)...and now I just drag my feeble carcass to the keyboard.
We do what we can do.
(Writing letters to capitalist politicians is a waste of effort...unless you enclose a very large check.)
Now, let's talk about the German translation 'we were just following our orders.' To equate our military, who are truly trying to save our lives, with a military whose only purpose was to kill anyone who didn't fit into acceptably insane standards of aesthetics and religion...that's not a fair comparison, to say the least.
It's completely fair...unless you wish to argue that the Iraqi Marines were about to storm the beaches of Long Island.
These arguments that you raise -- the American mercenaries are "defending us" -- are fundamentally moronic. It is simply inconceivable that either Vietnam or Iraq was ever a credible military threat to the United States.
The purpose of the U.S. military has, in fact, always been aggressive. The rhetoric about "self-defense" has never been anything more than a pack of lies.
Lastly, I'd simply like to tell you this. There are many of us on these boards who have ties to Vietnam. My ex-fiancee's father, along with being my favorite atheist in the world, was in Vietnam. The man is 70+ years old now and still has nightmares about the things he did and the things he saw.
Maybe he should write down what he did and what he saw...and publish it.
I'm sure there are lots of people walking around with bad memories...things that "can't be told" because civilized people would find them disgusting.
I'm also sure there are lots of Vietnamese who "still" have nightmares...over what was done to them.
You're an insipid, vile little rat for saying those things to [Mr. War Criminal] and you owe him more than an apology. To be truthful, you owe him (and the other fellows and ladies who've enlisted) your life.
He will receive neither. But it will be interesting to learn if your mouth is writing checks that your ass can't cash. If you volunteer for occupation duty in Iraq or elsewhere, I'll send a bouquet to your memorial service.
Stinkweed would be appropriate, I think.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This was one famous saying that I always admired, growing up
"I may not agree with whay you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."
One of the French enlightenment philosophers said it. But if I'm not mistaken, he was lying; he lived very close to the Swiss border and at the slightest hint of royal displeasure, he was on the other side.
He didn't even "defend to the death" his own "right to say it".
I won't give the details, but I did a few war crimes myself up close and personal.. So you can add me to your list if you care to.
Consider yourself added.
How about those "details"? Rape? Torture? Killing women and children?
Don't you feel a "moral obligation" to tell the "youngsters" here about what America is really like?
SS concentration camp guards were a part of a group of people that murdered Jews, gays, etc. simply because of who they were. We were at war with the vietnamese. If you don't see the difference than you are just as stupid as I thought.
Gee, I must have missed the "declaration of war"...guess I didn't see that day's paper.
When was it? And did the Vietnamese "bomb Pearl Harbor" or what?
Also, there were parts of Vietnam that were designated, if I remember correctly, as "free fire zones"...meaning American troops could kill any Vietnamese in such a zone.
Just for being Vietnamese.
[Mr. War Criminal] is more of a man than you will ever be.
I'm glad you said that about him and not me. I would find support from someone like yourself extremely embarrassing.
If someone came to this board and said, "I was an SS concentration camp guard and personally participated in 428 massacres" and they didn't want to talk about it due to the pain it caused them to just think about it...then yes, I would tell a piece of shit like you to knock off the personal attacks.
Awww...what a sweetie you are.
Never mind the pain of the victims...what about the pain of the executioner?
I think you should start a support-group for war criminals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really think men and women in the military service can choose where to go and what to do?
Yes I do. They are armed.
That means they can turn their weapons on their officers any time they feel suitably motivated.
Guess who wins any armed conflict between soldiers and officers?
The real American heroes in Vietnam were the ones who fragged their officers. If only there had been more of them!
Just as the real heroes in the Third Reich were those who deserted and resisted.
It's not a single enlistee's fault that we're in the middle east right now.
I never said or implied that.
What I do say is that if you find yourself trapped in an imperialist war, then you have an obligation to resist -- presuming you wish to continue considering yourself a decent human being.
That means you disobey orders (openly or covertly), encourage other soldiers to do the same, desert, kill your officers if possible, video-tape war crimes and smuggle the tapes to the world press...whatever it takes to expose what's really going on.
Here's one of the tiny number of Biblical quotations that I've found to actually be true...
He that doeth evil hateth the light.
But let's go live in your fictional world for a few moments. Let's say the people in the services all went AWOL right now and for the next 10 years no one enlisted.
What do you think would happen?
I actually expect something along those lines to happen...as the immediate prelude to proletarian revolution.
When the Petrograd garrisons went over to the revolution, 300 years of czarist despotism went down the toilet in days.
The 300th birthday of the American Empire will be 2076...so, if we're going to do better than the Russians, it's time to go to work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I was more than willing to continue this controversy, the webmaster -- "Dave" -- cut me down with this post...
Your desire to hijack this site and make some political pundit soapbox of it for YOUR personal agenda, whatever that is, is contrary to the site's clearly stated purpose.
Your posts reflect a desire to make this board into some sort of anti-American political soapbox. That is unacceptable.
Knock it off as requested or you will be banned.
He later added...
This site was set up to encourage those leaving Christianity, those who feel alone and cut off with no one to talk to about it. That is its only reason for existing.
Dave "Feel-Good" clearly did not want anyone to "feel bad" about U.S. imperialism or the deeds of those who serve it.
:redstar2000:
The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas