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VukBZ2005
8th November 2004, 22:46
I have been reading past Situationist International journals and it's interesting - it
gives a great insight into what helped caused the great French General Strike of
May-June 1968. I still believe that Situationism has merit today.. What are your
thoughts on it?

Monty Cantsin
8th November 2004, 22:55
What are you talking about there's no such thing as "Situationism"!

The Garbage Disposal Unit
9th November 2004, 00:30
Situationism is a lie created by anti-situationists who would turn dynamic revolution into stale ideology!

Fuck situationism, let's kill a cop instead!

VukBZ2005
10th November 2004, 01:57
Ah, and you're the one who calls himself a psuedo-situationist hack!! What
are your thoughts on Situationist ideas?

STI
10th November 2004, 02:00
I really don't know much about it. Could you post a link of sorts about it? Or maybe explain it a little?

tk-you.

VukBZ2005
10th November 2004, 02:02
http://www.bopsecrets.org - that should help.

Palmares
10th November 2004, 03:09
I'm not 100% sure what it is, but I've started reading the wiki thing on it.

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationism)

I'll get back to you about it.

niwi
11th November 2004, 20:48
Fuck situationism, let's kill a cop instead!

Kill situationism, let's fuck a cop!

niwi
11th November 2004, 20:49
But yeah, I think it's still relevant today, maybe more than ever. The society of the spectacle just keeps getting more spectacular, after all.

VukBZ2005
11th November 2004, 21:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 08:49 PM
But yeah, I think it's still relevant today, maybe more than ever. The society of the spectacle just keeps getting more spectacular, after all.
Perhaps we should form our own Situationist Faction here on Che-Lives :) :lol:

Monty Cantsin
11th November 2004, 21:31
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30075

read that it’s my attempt at a Situationist film critique

VukBZ2005
12th November 2004, 00:41
Originally posted by Monty [email protected] 11 2004, 09:31 PM
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30075

read that it’s my attempt at a Situationist film critique
It's impressive. And what do you think of the idea of forming a Situationist Faction on Che-Lives?

Monty Cantsin
12th November 2004, 01:16
What would be the point? if you agree with the ideas of the Situationists integrate them into you’re belief structure. Also I don’t like labels to much (though I use them something shocking) if you call yourself a Situationist does that encapsulate what you are?

Djehuti
13th November 2004, 03:44
I like Guy Debord, he is cool. Society of the spectacle is intresting, but I find it really hard to read.

http://www.yelah.net/images/139.jpg



"It's po-mo." "Huh?" "Postmodern."
"Huh?" "Weird for the sake of weird."
Moe Szyslak

Kaan
14th November 2004, 23:05
Society of Spectacle makes some interesting points about consumption and consumerism, but it seems like its for a bunch of high college kids


Society of the spectacle is intresting, but I find it really hard to read.


Christ, you can say that again.

VukBZ2005
22nd November 2004, 21:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 11:05 PM
Society of Spectacle makes some interesting points about consumption and consumerism, but it seems like its for a bunch of high college kids


Society of the spectacle is intresting, but I find it really hard to read.


Christ, you can say that again.
The problem is that Guy Debord did'nt clarify on some of his points - and
yes - it takes a large amount of focus to fully undestand what he was saying
in the Society of the Spectacle.

RevolverNo9
23rd November 2004, 18:07
The Situationist project is the revolutinoary movement that interests me the most at the moment. The Society of the Spectacle is indeed unbleivably terse (and I read in French first, imagine how long that took me...) but it's genius. The book though that I believe veryone should start with however is 'The Revolution of Everyday Life' (translated from 'La traite de savoir-vivre pour les jeunes generations') by Raoul Vaneigem. This is less economically and politically concerned than Debord's work and wonderfully lucid and well written. I recommend it to everyone.

For me their ideas are just so resonant, how often does your stomach clench at the realisation that you live the memories of the before and hopes of the after, but rarely LIVE the moment? Who wants to live in a society where the danger of dying of hunger is void, yet to die from boredom is an ever-present reality? Or the sickness that one feels when you see yourself, always 3rd person, playing a role, a fabricated cliche framed by the System... why do I not know and love the girl who lives three doors away in my own street? And it was all there, in the SI's theory. And the highly intellectual, visceral uprising of Paris 68 is so intriguing...

I truly believe we live in Spectacular society. We must live without DEAD TIME. That's why 'Ulysses' is the most wonderful book- it shows compostion of beauty and creativity from the ashes of the Mundane. Where of course the SI fell down, I think, is too vague a concept of society after revolution. WORKERS COUNCILS! Yes very well, but anything else? This why I think we have a duty to build a politically realised structure to carry out freely the Situationist Project.

VukBZ2005
5th January 2005, 00:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 06:07 PM
The Situationist project is the revolutinoary movement that interests me the most at the moment. The Society of the Spectacle is indeed unbleivably terse (and I read in French first, imagine how long that took me...) but it's genius. The book though that I believe veryone should start with however is 'The Revolution of Everyday Life' (translated from 'La traite de savoir-vivre pour les jeunes generations') by Raoul Vaneigem. This is less economically and politically concerned than Debord's work and wonderfully lucid and well written. I recommend it to everyone.

For me their ideas are just so resonant, how often does your stomach clench at the realisation that you live the memories of the before and hopes of the after, but rarely LIVE the moment? Who wants to live in a society where the danger of dying of hunger is void, yet to die from boredom is an ever-present reality? Or the sickness that one feels when you see yourself, always 3rd person, playing a role, a fabricated cliche framed by the System... why do I not know and love the girl who lives three doors away in my own street? And it was all there, in the SI's theory. And the highly intellectual, visceral uprising of Paris 68 is so intriguing...

I truly believe we live in Spectacular society. We must live without DEAD TIME. That's why 'Ulysses' is the most wonderful book- it shows compostion of beauty and creativity from the ashes of the Mundane. Where of course the SI fell down, I think, is too vague a concept of society after revolution. WORKERS COUNCILS! Yes very well, but anything else? This why I think we have a duty to build a politically realised structure to carry out freely the Situationist Project.
i agree with you. :D :D :D

antieverything
5th January 2005, 01:13
As a line of intellectual thought I find it rather interesting.
As a political ideology I find it humorous.

I see this as another articulation of a common nilihistic-anarchist mistake--taking a valid philosophical starting point and extending it to narcicistic extremes.

-edit-

I suppose I should also add that I appreciate the situationist tendency to take the focus off of production and instead analyze consumption and even leisure. Of course, on these same merits, situationism condemns itself to being the ideology of middle-class malcontents of rich western countries. That being said, I think it does a fairly good job at doing just that--I can certainly relate to it...but again, I don't think it puts forth a valid worldview (probably because it eschews such things in the first place) and as such fails to be useful for much else than a tool for intellectual masturbation among people like me.

So, to sum it up--read it, take it to heart...but don't think it extends to interpersonal relations or real social change.

RevolverNo9
5th January 2005, 20:57
As a political ideology I find it humorous.

I wouldn't be quite as damning. Beyond the abstract dialogues on the simulataneous realisation and supression of art (some ferociously dialectical lets not forget) lies a misty but tight political thoery.

The reason why The Society of the Spectacle, aside from being an uncomromsing work of high-thoery, has first chapters so impenetrable is because they are so deeply involved with the Hegelian-Marxist tradition. (Indeed I whall have to reread the work after having become proeprly acquainted with Hegel's philosophy.)

And let one not forget that the considerably largest chapter, The Proletariat as Representation, is a debate on the political and ideological nature of Marxism, an analysis of the Bakunin split, of Leninism (after that 'Kautskyite'), the party and state etc...


see this as another articulation of a common nilihistic-anarchist mistake

Although it is the Anarchist tendency that has always taken them to heart, this is perhaps incongruous. They are immensely attracted by the creativity, empahsis on leisure - 'a bas le travail' - and all that ground but ignore the fact that their actual political thoery is die-hard Hegelian-Marxist.

In a way this perhaps is one of the strengths of the Situatinosit project, that its truth and resonance can be understood by so many and amalgamated into such personal outlooks. Though of course this is also why it is confusing and diluted, especially since after the emergence of the 'pro-situ' fanclub.

The SI was never supposed to be like a Trotskyist organisation, recruiting and all. It was a network of people to carry out their experimentalism, and yes indulge in arrogant elitism too. They said their mission was not to tell people what to think, but to get to think for themselves. Debord collaborated and I believe was a member for a while of a Trotskyist group called Socialism ou Barbarie. From them he adopted the definition of a proletarian as one who has no control over their lives, for example.

The time has come for Situatinosit ideas to become the subject of proper, widespread, academic analysis and criticism. Through this its nature as a truly Marxist theory, and one firmly placed on the scientific revealing of truthes, will emerge. Perhaps more importantly it will bring an end to the polarisation between apostolic reverence and blank negativism. Perhaps for these purposes we should really talk about Debordianism a phrase I have never heard but one that would knock down I think a great barrier for universal understanding, by elevating it to a purely theoretical plane and divorcing it from the pseudo-anarchist bed-in where it currently rests.

As far as I am concerned I see the change of the proletarian role of worker to consumer a very true and very true-to-Marxist analysis. The logic to the capitalist classes weening the lower stratas into consumers of their own surplus is totally dialectical. The Spectacle too, is so deeply Hegelian-Marixst a concept that I can't get my head the whole way round it. The first line runs, as an ad-lib translation:

'All societies in which the modern mode of production reigns presents itself as a mass accumulation of spectacles'

This hopefully should remind one of a certian opening line of a particular book by the man Marx...

Because in the end, the spectacle is the accumualtion of capital par excellence. Long live its downfall.

VukBZ2005
9th January 2005, 00:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 08:57 PM

As a political ideology I find it humorous.

I wouldn't be quite as damning. Beyond the abstract dialogues on the simulataneous realisation and supression of art (some ferociously dialectical lets not forget) lies a misty but tight political thoery.

The reason why The Society of the Spectacle, aside from being an uncomromsing work of high-thoery, has first chapters so impenetrable is because they are so deeply involved with the Hegelian-Marxist tradition. (Indeed I whall have to reread the work after having become proeprly acquainted with Hegel's philosophy.)

And let one not forget that the considerably largest chapter, The Proletariat as Representation, is a debate on the political and ideological nature of Marxism, an analysis of the Bakunin split, of Leninism (after that 'Kautskyite'), the party and state etc...


see this as another articulation of a common nilihistic-anarchist mistake

Although it is the Anarchist tendency that has always taken them to heart, this is perhaps incongruous. They are immensely attracted by the creativity, empahsis on leisure - 'a bas le travail' - and all that ground but ignore the fact that their actual political thoery is die-hard Hegelian-Marxist.

In a way this perhaps is one of the strengths of the Situatinosit project, that its truth and resonance can be understood by so many and amalgamated into such personal outlooks. Though of course this is also why it is confusing and diluted, especially since after the emergence of the 'pro-situ' fanclub.

The SI was never supposed to be like a Trotskyist organisation, recruiting and all. It was a network of people to carry out their experimentalism, and yes indulge in arrogant elitism too. They said their mission was not to tell people what to think, but to get to think for themselves. Debord collaborated and I believe was a member for a while of a Trotskyist group called Socialism ou Barbarie. From them he adopted the definition of a proletarian as one who has no control over their lives, for example.

The time has come for Situatinosit ideas to become the subject of proper, widespread, academic analysis and criticism. Through this its nature as a truly Marxist theory, and one firmly placed on the scientific revealing of truthes, will emerge. Perhaps more importantly it will bring an end to the polarisation between apostolic reverence and blank negativism. Perhaps for these purposes we should really talk about Debordianism a phrase I have never heard but one that would knock down I think a great barrier for universal understanding, by elevating it to a purely theoretical plane and divorcing it from the pseudo-anarchist bed-in where it currently rests.

As far as I am concerned I see the change of the proletarian role of worker to consumer a very true and very true-to-Marxist analysis. The logic to the capitalist classes weening the lower stratas into consumers of their own surplus is totally dialectical. The Spectacle too, is so deeply Hegelian-Marixst a concept that I can't get my head the whole way round it. The first line runs, as an ad-lib translation:

'All societies in which the modern mode of production reigns presents itself as a mass accumulation of spectacles'

This hopefully should remind one of a certian opening line of a particular book by the man Marx...

Because in the end, the spectacle is the accumualtion of capital par excellence. Long live its downfall.
I agree with you.