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redstar2000
24th October 2004, 00:12
The Communal Polis: Identity and Organization in a Communist World

Man is an animal that lives in a polis -- Aristotle

The single greatest political innovation of the ancient Greeks was the establishment of the polis, or "city-state" -- Richard Hooker, 1996.

Try to imagine a communist "European Union" or a communist "North America"...what do you think it would look like?

Here are these enormous and sprawling remnants of empire, containing hundreds of millions of people...people of different languages, ethnic/cultural traditions, etc.

Is there any point to these enormous entities after class society has been overthrown?

Is there any point to the emotional identifications that people have established with them?

Are they useful for what we really want?

People do seem to have a marked tendency to emotionally identify with the geographical area where they live, with their own language, cultural/ethnic traditions, etc. I don't think it reasonable to expect that to change for a very long time...if ever.

Is there a form that would better serve our purposes than the old nation-states and empires?

I think there is...and I think the Greeks invented it 2,700 years ago: the polis.*

The traditional polis was basically a fortified city surrounded by enough agricultural land to feed itself (most of the time) and a reliable (and secure) water supply. It could (and often did) enter into alliances with other cities, but was jealous of its own autonomy. Its citizens emotionally identified with it, eagerly defended it in wartime, and often freely contributed to its welfare over and above the demands of taxation.

In Athens and some of the other cities, the institution of direct rule by the citizens in a popular assembly was invented.

As I envision it, a modern communal polis would resemble the ancient version in many respects...though, of course, on a considerably larger scale.

It would be a large city surrounded by sufficient farmland to meet most of its food requirements, would produce most of what it required in the way of technological goods, etc. It would, most likely, speak a common language and embrace a common culture...though it might remain ethnically mixed.

It would offer a source of identity "on a human scale".

It would cooperate with other such cities on projects of mutual advantage, obviously. But ultimate authority (insofar as that word would still mean something) would rest in the hands of its own popular assembly...that should consist of all citizens who wish to attend its daily meetings (supported by referendums as seen to be necessary).

There are "nations" that exist today that give us a glimpse of what such cities might look like in the future. Austria is really the "city-state of Vienna"; the Czech Republic is really the "city-state of Prague", etc. The non-aggressiveness of these small "nations" is encouraging.

Still, there is the risk that "good-natured rivalry" might spill over into "bad-natured war". The old Greek city-states quarreled nearly as often as they cooperated.

I find it difficult to imagine why one such communal polis would want to go to war with another -- though one must remember that two small central American countries fought a brief war in the last century over the outcome of a football game ("The Soccer War").

The problem of economic relations between such cities is a rather thorny one...early on, it might strongly resemble trade a lot more than we would be comfortable with. There would be no money...but it might look a lot like barter.

The communist position would be one of "generous tit-for-tat"...give the other city even more than they asked for. Let each city gradually develop the idea that "ours is the most generous and open-handed city of them all".

And things should go well.
________________________

*Note that this is one way in which communist societies might be organized. There are certain to be others.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

VukBZ2005
24th October 2004, 00:21
Hmmm..... Sounds like a good idea, however, i favor Communes as a form of
Communist organization.

Dr. Rosenpenis
24th October 2004, 00:38
I think it's a bad idea.

I think it's quite important to have a central public body to guarantee equality of standard of living and equality of the distribution of goods among all regions.

Would the "polis" of New York City give it's goods to the "polis" of some little farming community just because it's nice, or would they really fear the 50-person volunteer militia?

Your idea doesn't sound realistic to me, but by the time we around get to those matters, it certainly might. We'll have to see, I suppose.

DaCuBaN
24th October 2004, 00:50
I'm not sure about this idea: In principle, it seems good - the breakdown of the world into "managable chunks" is almost certain under socialism - we've all seen the socialist empires of the 20th century fall, and so only the suicidal would advocate such a centralised entity as that.

My main problem is that the Roman Empire was principally made up of "City States", and there would be nothing to prevent something like this occuring again...

redstar2000
24th October 2004, 03:46
Originally posted by RedZeppelin+--> (RedZeppelin)Would the "polis" of New York City give its goods to the "polis" of some little farming community just because it's nice, or would they really fear the 50-person volunteer militia?[/b]

The chances are that there wouldn't be any polis that was only a "little farming community"...it too would be part of a polis -- say St. Louis or Kansas City or even New York itself.

Remember, we're still talking about fairly substantial populations. The New York City polis might well consist of much of southern New York state, plus Connecticut, plus the northern half of New Jersey.

The idea is to arrange matters in such a way as to make each polis mostly self-sufficient.

This might mean in the long run the breaking down of the "huge" cities into more manageable, smaller cities. A polis of one or two million people would be a lot easier to work with than one of 15 or 20 million...and probably be a lot more pleasant to live and work in.


DaCuBaN
My main problem is that the Roman Empire was principally made up of "City States", and there would be nothing to prevent something like this occurring again...

I agree that this could turn out to be a significant risk. Rome was a "conquering" polis and its "civic ideology" was one that emphasized its "right" and "destiny" to rule all others.

Naturally, we would struggle vigorously against such a view if it began to emerge -- it would almost have to be mixed up with some sort of "racial"/cultural superiority complex.

I think all the other cities could nip the "empire-builders" in the bud -- particularly since we now know where such ideas lead.

But history is lamentably short on guarantees.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

DaCuBaN
24th October 2004, 03:58
I think all the other cities could nip the "empire-builders" in the bud -- particularly since we now know where such ideas lead.

Indeed - but to look at previous attempt at such acts of prevention, such as the Treaty of Versaille, they backfired in the worst possible manner - crushing the people of Germany, and bringing rise to the intense nationalism that brought about the downfall of Europe, and the "blackening" of the name of Socialism.

Can we allow such as that to occur again? In such a society, I fear we cannot.

Dr. Rosenpenis
24th October 2004, 05:25
Okay...
So you're gonna divide the future 'socialist world' into city-states of 1 to 2 million inhabitants. :lol:

What about the lack of a central public body to guarantee equality of standard of living and equality of the distribution of goods among all regions?

If a central public body can become corrupt with revisionism, why can't a local public body?

And from looking at Cuba, it doesn't seem thet power distribution is a huge issue. The CDRs seem to fucntion rather well with the central government in Havana.

redstar2000
24th October 2004, 14:44
Originally posted by RedZeppelin
What about the lack of a central public body to guarantee equality of standard of living and equality of the distribution of goods among all regions?

Well, what about it?

Is the price of "perfect equality" -- a central authority with a professional army, a prison system, etc. -- worth it?

Not to mention the economic costs of such a "central authority"...they will be the guys who get first crack at all the goodies, of course.

Your assumption is still fundamentally bourgeois: you think that unless a central authority is standing over people (with a gun!) to "make sure" that they don't grab more than their "share", that they'll do it!

In other words, people "are" incurably "greedy"...and every polis would be seen as a source of personal enrichment at the expense of poorer cities.

Perhaps that could happen; I honestly don't know.

But your "alternative" is grim beyond belief: only centralized armed force keeps people from grabbing everything they can...and probably from cannibalism as well.

If I had your unutterably bleak view of humanity, I would conclude that ruthless pursuit of self-interest would be the only rational strategy.


If a central public body can become corrupt with revisionism, why can't a local public body?

Well, it's closer and easier to see, for one thing.

Another factor is that its own corruption will not only be limited in scale and influence, but other cities will become alarmed and be in a position to take measures against the "degenerate" city.

Sure, it could happen. But the repercussions would be limited...and reversible.

When a "central authority" goes bad (and it seemingly always does), the outcome is catastrophic.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Eastside Revolt
12th November 2004, 06:54
What about natural disasters?

Wouldn't you need some sort of central authority, or at least some sort of command and control mechanism, to ensure that a or many city-states, did not fall behind do to such instances?

redstar2000
12th November 2004, 13:35
Originally posted by redcanada
What about natural disasters?

Obviously there would be some things that groups of cities would cooperate with each other...and one of those things might be a "mutual assistance pact" in the event of natural disasters.

If a hurricane struck the Miami Commune, then other Gulf Coast communes, having agreed in advance, would rush assistance to the stricken polis.

Indeed, cities in danger from hurricanes would probably sponsor collective efforts in advance of potential disaster -- such as contributing resources to keeping a weather satellite in a suitable orbit to give advance warnings.

There are some specific functions where cooperation between large numbers of cities would "make sense"...an inter-city rail system, for example. Cities that "signed up" would get rail service; cities that didn't, wouldn't.

Most, I think, would "sign up" for such useful services.

But the principle that I'm looking for here is not so much de-centralization as an abstract ideal, but the avoidance of any "political center of gravity" that "does everything". An arrogant and swollen bureaucracy that "knows better" than ordinary working people would, I think, turn into a new ruling class within a generation or two at most.

The communal polis is an idea to institutionalize the principle of local self-determination...there will and must be some exceptions to it, but each "exception" has to justify itself according to specific circumstances.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas