Israeli Foreign Minister Uncovers American Peace Initiative

[Blasphemy]

Israeli Foregin Minister, Shimon Peres, said today that the US is planning a new peace intiative that will be based to israeli withdrawal to the June 4th, 1967 lines. Peres said that according to the initiative, the palestinians will give up on the Right of Return while Israel will evacuate all the jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

During a speech in Tel Aviv infront of the Israeli Chamber of Commerce, Peres said that "we must start a peace process now that will solve many problems in the Israeli economy, which is in a difficult stage. Israel must co-operate with the US, Russia and Europe in an attempt to reach an agreement with the palestinians, that the world will have an interest to preserve".

The outline of the American Administration to a new arrangement in the Middle East calls for a founding of a Palestinian state in the June 4th, 1967 borders, with a possiblity to minor alters in borders, and setting a timetable of 3 years to complete the peace process.

[deimos]

what does sharon say?

(Edited by deimos at 4:38 pm on June 6, 2002)

[Reuben]

Due to the generosity of the Palestinians they may accept the 67 borders. HOwever this would be a great compromise (which they have said they are willing to make) which will involve them giving up permenantly their claim to 78 per cent of the british mandate in palestine.

I hope this works, but if Peres tries to pull any of the shit that Barak tried to pull nothing will be resolved.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from deimos on 5:29 pm on June 6, 2002
what does sharon say?

(Edited by deimos at 4:38 pm on June 6, 2002)


sharon will meet with president Bush on monday. he will give his official stand on the topic after the meeting.

reuben, if we talk about a palestinian state it is only in the 1967 borders. they will achieve nothing more than that.

[Reuben]

I think Arafat probably would except that, given that as I said at Oslo he conceded (to his extreme and somewhat warranted ciritism) 78 per cent of historic palestine. By the way DOES THIS PLAN INCLUDE EAST JERUSALEM?

However, what Barak did was disgusting. He told the world he was making generous offer (I really dont see that you can be generous with somebody else's land), while the reality was quite different. Not content with the majority of Arafats huge compromise that I mentioned, he damanded that ten per centof the territories be permenantly annexed and a further ten per cent go under indefinite israeli control.

Victory to the intifada,

Reuben

P.S. does this offer say anything about the right of return

[Blasphemy]

arafat may say he accepts the plan, but he will go on with the terrorism. he is not a peace partner. sharon and arafat are not the people to lead a peace process.

[ComradeChe]

I dont think that the Palestenians will accept this American new peace intiative for one good reason, you've said the the palestinians will give up on the Right of Return, and this right is one of the most important rights that the palestinians fight for.

[Blasphemy]

they will never get the right of return. never.... even the most extreme leftists in israel don't support the right.

[ComradeChe]

If they wont get the right to return, you'll need to fight'em untill the end of time, you'll fight this generation and the coming one. untill victory for them

[Blasphemy]

they know they will never get it, and if they prefer living in great poverty under the israeli occupation fighting for a cause that they will never achieve rather than reaching an agreement that will grant them a state and a stable economy then they are great fools.

[ComradeChe]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 10:30 pm on June 6, 2002
they know they will never get it, and if they prefer living in great poverty under the israeli occupation fighting for a cause that they will never achieve rather than reaching an agreement that will grant them a state and a stable economy then they are great fools.

Now for you the one who is fightin to get his land back is a Great Fool, what kind of mind do you have ?!!!

[Blasphemy]

they have a land. they have a place to live. if israel helps them rehabilitate in the territories, then it's better rather than live in poverty and fight for a cause that will never be achieved.

[ComradeChe]

lsn
even if its not achieved in this near time it will after decades or even after centuries, and after that you'll know who are the fools.

[Blasphemy]

what the americans offer is something they will never get again. this is the palestinians' chance to show that they are willing to make peace with israel. peace is painful. it requires compromises. evacuating ALL the settlements is a far-going offer that i never expected peres to agree to. it is the right thing to do. this initiative will have a lot of opposition in israel, and the palestinians HAVE to agree. it is their chance to make a better life for their children. their chance to create a world for their children in which they won't have to die or lose their friends. their chance to create a world where their children can live in peace with their neighboors without hate. if they walk out on this chance, then they have lost their cause.

[ComradeChe]

what country you are talking about, a country divided into pices, one part in the West Bank and another in Gaza strip, so the one who is livin in west bank cant
go to the other part or the one who is livin in Gaza cant go to the other part unless your gov give him a permission and would your gov leave'em to get weapons or you want it a demilitarized zone, so your army can invade it when ever he wants to,
a country with airports that the planes must have a permission from israel to depart or to land.


what kind of countries is this country?!!!!!

[Blasphemy]

whatever gave you the notion that this is how the palestinian state will look like? it will be divided to two, but the distance is not so great, so there will probably be a bridge or a tunnel that will connect both areas.
about the other things you mentioned i will not comment because they have no hold in reality.

[ComradeChe]

Both of us know that your government wont accept an Armed Palestinian country.
and about the tunnel or the bridge it's an idea, but why dont you accept that they have a road across Palestine (Israel now),why do they have to be in air or under ground?

[Reuben]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 8:50 pm on June 6, 2002
what the americans offer is something they will never get again. this is the palestinians' chance to show that they are willing to make peace with israel. peace is painful. it requires compromises. evacuating ALL the settlements is a far-going offer that i never expected peres to agree to. it is the right thing to do. this initiative will have a lot of opposition in israel, and the palestinians HAVE to agree. it is their chance to make a better life for their children. their chance to create a world for their children in which they won't have to die or lose their friends. their chance to create a world where their children can live in peace with their neighboors without hate. if they walk out on this chance, then they have lost their cause.


Yes of course peace is painful. The palestinians who were expelled in 48 will have to give up their right of return to the homes frem which they were expelled and the settlers frfom Brooklyn, who unlik the palestinians, chose to go out their to further their own ideological and religious aims (I.E. the persecution of the palestinians) will have to go home.


Sounds very balanced to me - YEAH RIGHT.

This sounds more like America/ISraelss terms of palestinian surrender. The palestinians should not and will not accept a solution which keeps people away from their homes simply because of their ethnic background.

Comrade Reuben.

P.S. I hope that Arafat has learnt from oslo who he is dealing with.

[ComradeChe]

Thats right Comrade

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from ComradeChe on 10:57 pm on June 7, 2002
and about the tunnel or the bridge it's an idea, but why dont you accept that they have a road across Palestine (Israel now),why do they have to be in air or under ground?


oh, stop dwelling over technicalities.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Reuben on 12:02 am on June 8, 2002

Quote: from Blasphemy on 8:50 pm on June 6, 2002
what the americans offer is something they will never get again. this is the palestinians' chance to show that they are willing to make peace with israel. peace is painful. it requires compromises. evacuating ALL the settlements is a far-going offer that i never expected peres to agree to. it is the right thing to do. this initiative will have a lot of opposition in israel, and the palestinians HAVE to agree. it is their chance to make a better life for their children. their chance to create a world for their children in which they won't have to die or lose their friends. their chance to create a world where their children can live in peace with their neighboors without hate. if they walk out on this chance, then they have lost their cause.


Yes of course peace is painful. The palestinians who were expelled in 48 will have to give up their right of return to the homes frem which they were expelled and the settlers frfom Brooklyn, who unlik the palestinians, chose to go out their to further their own ideological and religious aims (I.E. the persecution of the palestinians) will have to go home.


Sounds very balanced to me - YEAH RIGHT.

This sounds more like America/ISraelss terms of palestinian surrender. The palestinians should not and will not accept a solution which keeps people away from their homes simply because of their ethnic background.

Comrade Reuben.

P.S. I hope that Arafat has learnt from oslo who he is dealing with.


first of all, i don't understand why people here don't like the Oslo Peace Accords so much. oslo is the best thing that happened to israel since signing the peace treaty with jordan. oslo meant peace, prosperity and justice. of you disagree with oslo, you disagree with the path of peace led by the great and noble Yitzhak Rabin.

now, Reuben, my brother, evacuating the settlements is not as easy as you think. lets say someone comes to your house and tells you it doesn't belong to you because your parents stole it from someone. you were born and raised in that house, so from your point of view, it's not fair that it is taken away from you. that is the situation in the settlements. a second generation was already born there, so evacuating it is not simple, though it must be done immediately.
i have already said numerous times that accepting the right of return is the fair thing to do, but as you said before, Reuben, one must be pragmatic.

[ComradeChe]

Who is Yitzhak Rabin? isnt he the prime minister, who ordered his soldiers when he was Defense minister in the first intefada not to kill the palestinians?

[Angie]

Quote from Blasphemy:
now, Reuben, my brother, evacuating the settlements is not as easy as you think. lets say someone comes to your house and tells you it doesn't belong to you because your parents stole it from someone. you were born and raised in that house, so from your point of view, it's not fair that it is taken away from you. that is the situation in the settlements. a second generation was already born there, so evacuating it is not simple, though it must be done immediately.
i have already said numerous times that accepting the right of return is the fair thing to do, but as you said before, Reuben, one must be pragmatic. What about all the Palestinian people who no longer have homes because your country decided to expand it's settlements - ILLEGALLY? Those "second generations" are living on land that is not legally theirs - someone else suffered so that the land became "available". Are every single one of those people guilty, and utterly deserving of what happened to them?

What about the people who are having their homes destroyed as we speak? Massive holes knocked in the walls so that Israeli soldiers - yes, just like the one you're going to become soon - are able to walk from home to home without using doors like any other sane human being on the planet.

What's about to happen to your lot has already happened to the Palestinians - more than once. Have a stop and think about them. My patience is wearing very, very thin.


(Edited by Angie at 10:57 pm on June 8, 2002)

[ComradeChe]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 12:08 pm on June 8, 2002

Quote: from Reuben on 12:02 am on June 8, 2002

Quote: from Blasphemy on 8:50 pm on June 6, 2002
what the americans offer is something they will never get again. this is the palestinians' chance to show that they are willing to make peace with israel. peace is painful. it requires compromises. evacuating ALL the settlements is a far-going offer that i never expected peres to agree to. it is the right thing to do. this initiative will have a lot of opposition in israel, and the palestinians HAVE to agree. it is their chance to make a better life for their children. their chance to create a world for their children in which they won't have to die or lose their friends. their chance to create a world where their children can live in peace with their neighboors without hate. if they walk out on this chance, then they have lost their cause.


Yes of course peace is painful. The palestinians who were expelled in 48 will have to give up their right of return to the homes frem which they were expelled and the settlers frfom Brooklyn, who unlik the palestinians, chose to go out their to further their own ideological and religious aims (I.E. the persecution of the palestinians) will have to go home.


Sounds very balanced to me - YEAH RIGHT.

This sounds more like America/ISraelss terms of palestinian surrender. The palestinians should not and will not accept a solution which keeps people away from their homes simply because of their ethnic background.

Comrade Reuben.

P.S. I hope that Arafat has learnt from oslo who he is dealing with.


first of all, i don't understand why people here don't like the Oslo Peace Accords so much. oslo is the best thing that happened to israel since signing the peace treaty with jordan. oslo meant peace, prosperity and justice. of you disagree with oslo, you disagree with the path of peace led by the great and noble Yitzhak Rabin.

now, Reuben, my brother, evacuating the settlements is not as easy as you think. lets say someone comes to your house and tells you it doesn't belong to you because your parents stole it from someone. you were born and raised in that house, so from your point of view, it's not fair that it is taken away from you. that is the situation in the settlements. a second generation was already born there, so evacuating it is not simple, though it must be done immediately.
i have already said numerous times that accepting the right of return is the fair thing to do, but as you said before, Reuben, one must be pragmatic.


Why do you think that its hard for the israeli to leave and its easy for the palestenians to leave their land or to give up his right to return to his land?

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Angie on 2:54 pm on June 8, 2002

Quote from Blasphemy:
now, Reuben, my brother, evacuating the settlements is not as easy as you think. lets say someone comes to your house and tells you it doesn't belong to you because your parents stole it from someone. you were born and raised in that house, so from your point of view, it's not fair that it is taken away from you. that is the situation in the settlements. a second generation was already born there, so evacuating it is not simple, though it must be done immediately.
i have already said numerous times that accepting the right of return is the fair thing to do, but as you said before, Reuben, one must be pragmatic. What about all the Palestinian people who no longer have homes because your country decided to expand it's settlements - ILLEGALLY? Those "second generations" are living on land that is not legally theirs - someone else suffered so that the land became "available". Are every single one of those people guilty, and utterly deserving of what happened to them?

What about the people who are having their homes destroyed as we speak? Massive holes knocked in the walls so that Israeli soldiers - yes, just like the one you're going to become soon - are able to walk from home to home without using doors like any other sane human being on the planet.

What's about to happen to your lot has already happened to the Palestinians - more than once. Have a stop and think about them. My patience is wearing very, very thin.


(Edited by Angie at 10:57 pm on June 8, 2002)


you don't need to teach me about the occupation and how immoral it is. if you would have read my other posts you would have known my point of view on the subject.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from ComradeChe on 2:55 pm on June 8, 2002

Quote: from Blasphemy on 12:08 pm on June 8, 2002

Quote: from Reuben on 12:02 am on June 8, 2002

Quote: from Blasphemy on 8:50 pm on June 6, 2002
what the americans offer is something they will never get again. this is the palestinians' chance to show that they are willing to make peace with israel. peace is painful. it requires compromises. evacuating ALL the settlements is a far-going offer that i never expected peres to agree to. it is the right thing to do. this initiative will have a lot of opposition in israel, and the palestinians HAVE to agree. it is their chance to make a better life for their children. their chance to create a world for their children in which they won't have to die or lose their friends. their chance to create a world where their children can live in peace with their neighboors without hate. if they walk out on this chance, then they have lost their cause.


Yes of course peace is painful. The palestinians who were expelled in 48 will have to give up their right of return to the homes frem which they were expelled and the settlers frfom Brooklyn, who unlik the palestinians, chose to go out their to further their own ideological and religious aims (I.E. the persecution of the palestinians) will have to go home.


Sounds very balanced to me - YEAH RIGHT.

This sounds more like America/ISraelss terms of palestinian surrender. The palestinians should not and will not accept a solution which keeps people away from their homes simply because of their ethnic background.

Comrade Reuben.

P.S. I hope that Arafat has learnt from oslo who he is dealing with.


first of all, i don't understand why people here don't like the Oslo Peace Accords so much. oslo is the best thing that happened to israel since signing the peace treaty with jordan. oslo meant peace, prosperity and justice. of you disagree with oslo, you disagree with the path of peace led by the great and noble Yitzhak Rabin.

now, Reuben, my brother, evacuating the settlements is not as easy as you think. lets say someone comes to your house and tells you it doesn't belong to you because your parents stole it from someone. you were born and raised in that house, so from your point of view, it's not fair that it is taken away from you. that is the situation in the settlements. a second generation was already born there, so evacuating it is not simple, though it must be done immediately.
i have already said numerous times that accepting the right of return is the fair thing to do, but as you said before, Reuben, one must be pragmatic.


Why do you think that its hard for the israeli to leave and its easy for the palestenians to leave their land or to give up his right to return to his land?


i never said it was easy. that's what i meant when i said that peace is painful. it goes both ways.

but we must remember what Yitzhak Rabin said (he was not the minister of defence during the intifada, but the PM who led the oslo peace accords and paid for it with his life): better have pains of peace than agonies of war

[ComradeChe]

wasn't he minister of defence during the first Intefada the year 1987?

[Reuben]

He was the General who told his troops to 'break their bones'

[ComradeChe]

That what I was lookin for, this man (peace man) you always talk about ordered his soldiers not to kill the palestenians just break their limbs.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Reuben on 2:25 am on June 9, 2002
He was the General who told his troops to 'break their bones'


this is not true. Rabin has never ordered to break the bones of palestinian protestors! these are all rumors made up by the israeli right-wing who wanted to overthrow Rabin.

Rabin was a man of peace. he was a great and noble leader who was willing to make sacrifices in order to finally put an end to the war between israel and the palestinians. he knew that by going on with oslo he was risking his life, and he was eventually assassinated. he was murdered for making peace. he was murdered because he didn't want to fight with the palestinians. "we have no hatred towards you" said Rabin, "we do not seek revenge". he was the first prime minister to understand the palestinian plight and walk towards them. Rabin was a great man. i respect him and i admire him for his courageous leadership. what you are saying about Rabin is exactly what i hear from far-right people in israeli forums.

[Blasphemy]

calling Rabin a murderer or a thug is like calling president bush a human-rights activist or calling sharon skinny...

[Reuben]

Well as far as I know that is the truth. As a military general who presided over the occupation and the human rights abuses carried out in the occuppied territories he is undoubtedly imnplicated in Human rights abuses. In this context what he ordered was somewhat insignificant. He was the military fist behind an occupation under which palestinians were tortured, it was his army who empowered the settlers to live the life that they do which involves, sin some cases dumping their sewage into palestinian rivers.

[Blasphemy]

Rabin was chief of the joint staff during the 6 days war, but he never supported the occupation! as minister in the government he always supported withdrawal, and was one of the only ministers who objected the founding of Sebastia, the first settlements. he was in a minority when he refused passing money to the settlements!

As general he carried out the orders of the government, while expressing his protest in the government.

before blaming the late prime minister of war crimes you should really do a little research.

[ComradeChe]

I've made a little search and this is a little sample of what i've found:

When the Palestinian intifada (uprising) broke out on the occupied territories in 1987, then defense minister Rabin bragged about his "iron fist" policy, which included his order that Israeli soldiers break the legs and arms of youthful protesters.

[ComradeChe]

this is a brief biography for him:

Rabin, Yitzhak

Rabin, (1922-1995), was prime minister of Israel from 1974 to 1977 and from 1992 until his death. On Nov. 4, 1995, he was assassinated in Tel Aviv, Israel. A right-wing Israeli university student who opposed Rabin's policies confessed to the murder.

Rabin was born in Jerusalem and was the nation's first prime minister born in Israel. Israel's previous prime ministers were born in Europe. In 1941, during World War II, Rabin joined the Palmach, a unit of the Jewish underground terrorist army in Palestine. He was deputy commander of the Palmach in 1948 during the first Arab-Israeli war. Rabin headed Israel's defense forces from 1964 to 1967. He planned the strategy in a 1967 war in which the Israelis defeated the Arabs and occupied the Arab lands of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

From 1968 to 1973, Rabin was ambassador to the United States. A Labor Party member, he was elected to Israel's parliament in 1973. He became Labor Party head and prime minister in 1974, and held those posts until 1977. He was minister of defense from 1984 to 1990.

Rabin again became Labor Party head in February 1992. Elections in June brought the party to power, and Rabin became prime minister again. He appointed himself minister of defense. In 1993, Rabin's government and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) signed an agreement that included the start of a plan for self-government for, and Israel's withdrawal from, the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Israel and the PLO also agreed to try to work out their conflicts. Rabin, Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres, and PLO leader Yasser Arafat shared the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize for their peace efforts. Also in 1994, talks between Rabin and King Hussein I of Jordan led to a peace treaty ending a state of war that had technically existed between their countries since 1948.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from ComradeChe on 12:02 am on June 11, 2002
I've made a little search and this is a little sample of what i've found:

When the Palestinian intifada (uprising) broke out on the occupied territories in 1987, then defense minister Rabin bragged about his "iron fist" policy, which included his order that Israeli soldiers break the legs and arms of youthful protesters.




surprisingly, this is what israeli fascists are saying about Rabin in israeli forums.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from ComradeChe on 12:06 am on June 11, 2002
this is a brief biography for him:

Rabin, Yitzhak

In 1993, Rabin's government and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) signed an agreement that included the start of a plan for self-government for, and Israel's withdrawal from, the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Israel and the PLO also agreed to try to work out their conflicts.

how can you call him a murderer?