A interesting problem

[Zingu]

Many people deny that god exists, I wish I could say the same, but there is still two problems that keeps me from doing so, they are based on logic, not on faith. I still severly doubt the existance of god never the less!

First of all, if atheists are convinced God does not exist in any shape, way or form, you must be omniscient to prove that, currently humankind has such little understanding of the universe, so, its true, analyzing what we know, we could say God does not exist, but that brings me to my next point.

My second problem is this: From every effect, there is a cause, what was the cause for existance if it was not a creator? This I can't get around other than an outside force acting as the effect.


Really, I'm still agonistic, theres no way really knowing, maybe the question's answers are out of our range of knowing right now, maybe something completely different. But, if there is a god, I'm betting its not some "omniscient" and "enternal" being, as Pascal's wager's major flaw was that theres a infinite possibilities of what god really is. There is a chance that our universe could just be some pitiful blob on a microscope slide where some person is smirking at our pitiful existance. Or, as some scientists have pointed out, "God" could just be some force like gravity, not judging, not conscience, but this force could have just caused the universe to come into existance. Any thoughts or arguements to these problems?

[DaCuBaN]

My second problem is this: From every effect, there is a cause, what was the cause for existance if it was not a creator? This I can't get around other than an outside force acting as the effect.

I was reading something today that may be of relevence here:


One of the most mind-boggling properties of quantum particles is that they come into existence out of nowhere. Suck every molecule of air out of a bottle, making it completely vacuum -- and quantum particles will still be there. They pop up in pairs out of nowhere. And within a tiny fraction of a second, they merge together and -- zzzip! -- they're gone.

It is precisely this odd `quantum vacuum' that may one day open the door to a very new source of energy. Suppose you're able to snatch some of those out-of-nowhere particles away. Admittedly, you'll have to be REALLY fast. But if you do succeed, you'll have harvested particles out of nowhere. And since matter and energy are basically the same stuff (according to Einstein's E=mc2), you'll have energy out of nowhere!

The advantages would be unimaginable. Here's an energy source that never runs out, is everywhere around, is extremely cheap, and causes no pollution whatsoever.

But then again, there is a small, but alarming risk. There may be simply energy too much. Mining the quantum vacuum might bring about an unstoppable chain reaction, releasing an ever increasing amount of energy. In fact, no-one knows how much energy will be released: calculations done by physicists give answers anywhere between zero and infinity.

Obviously, too much energy would mean trouble. The explosion could be huge enough to blow apart our entire solar system and everything around it. And of course, infinite energy would bring about infinite destruction, bombing not just a handful of stars, but everything in the entire Universe.

So, with this in mind, either the 'creator' is still very much at work on the quantum level, or it's bullshit. I'll let you decide which is bullshit for yourself ;)

[Zingu]

Mmmm, I'm reading a book on that called "Hyperspace" was just getting into the Quatum Physics chapter.

[DaCuBaN]

I'm not familiar with the book in question, but if it's anything like it's contemporaries, it'll leave your brain reeling. :D

[Zingu]

Oh yes, I had to re-read a few chapters before I understood them, one was something about "super-math" that made something like 1x1 equal 0, I'll have to look it up to write it down correctly.

[Scott M]

if everyting has a cause and effect as you say though....( i know this thoery to be true....but Devils Advocate and all that...)

what was the cause of the creator....

scott

[DaCuBaN]

*bangs head on desk*


One of the most mind-boggling properties of quantum particles is that they come into existence out of nowhere.

No creator necessary!

[Scott M]

*reaches behind DaCuBaNs back and pulls the string*

he's a wind up monkey!!!!! :D

i agree with you....as i said. Devils Advocate.,

scott

[DaCuBaN]

*cough*

Yeah, well. Self-righteousness and all that...

Sorry man ;)

[GrYnEt]

AN interesting problem

[gaf]

no probleme just real
you are, there is, you will...is that quantum ,god ,pascal or you

[che's long lost daughter]

I hope this might help answer some of your questions:

http://s7.invisionfree.com/I_P_F/index.php?showtopic=54

And if you wish, you could register in the entire forum too. We need more members.

[ComradeRed]

The fundemental problem I see in your post is the burden of proof fallacy. Atheists have no obligation to disprove what has yet to be proven! Until God is proven to exist, one cannot disprove it.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Whereas God simply conplicates our model it only makes sense to take a 'secular Occam's razor' to the entire concept. God, as postulate, does not explain anything that can not be explained within our more simple atheist model, and, furthermore, is completely empirically unprovable. Therefore, we can, very reasonably, toss him/her/it out entirely until some situation demanding God's existence arises.


(Damn, I why do I jump so radically between "everything is subjective" and hardline materialist? I mean, like, even in the course of a single day.)

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 12:48 AM
My second problem is this: From every effect, there is a cause, what was the cause for existance if it was not a creator? This I can't get around other than an outside force acting as the effect.
And who created the creator? What makes the creator so special as to be the "first cause"? What's so amazing from the universe that makes it need a creator? How can a creator think without a brain, for example?
And what caused time? It seems that by definition the cause of time must have happened before time existed, which seems impossible.


Really, I'm still agonistic, theres no way really knowing, maybe the question's answers are out of our range of knowing right now, maybe something completely different. But, if there is a god, I'm betting its not some "omniscient" and "enternal" being, as Pascal's wager's major flaw was that theres a infinite possibilities of what god really is. There is a chance that our universe could just be some pitiful blob on a microscope slide where some person is smirking at our pitiful existance. Or, as some scientists have pointed out, "God" could just be some force like gravity, not judging, not conscience, but this force could have just caused the universe to come into existance. Any thoughts or arguements to these problems?

"God" could be almost anything: matter, energy, dark matter, dark energy, us, cells, the earth, strings, everything, nothing, that which exists outside the universe, meteorites, blackholes, but most evidence indicates that, since it doesnt seem to exist in space or time, it exists in the same way Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and colours do: as products of our imagination.

[DaCuBaN]

Damn, I why do I jump so radically between "everything is subjective" and hardline materialist? I mean, like, even in the course of a single day.

Because the human mind is so amazingly limited that we cannot possibly understand the workings of the cosmos around us? There are times and places where materialism will serve well, but other times that subjectivity is obvious.

We must remain objective to succeed in any way whatsoever, as subjectivism is almost entirely paralysing. Ergo, materialism is spawned.

[king Royale]

I'm not familiar with the book in question, but if it's anything like it's contemporaries, it'll leave your brain reeling. :D So true.

I personally am an agnostic and I believe that it is possible that there is some higher being. Saying this, I don't believe that this higher being is one of the gods defined by any contemporary religion. I blieve that there could be a higher being for some of the same reasons mentioned above.

[apathy maybe]

I can't believe how fast this discussion of god degenerated into a discussion on Quantum Mechanics.
Point one, if the God exists inside the universe then God couldn't have created it. Therefore the first point is refuted.
Second, the universe is the universe it is the one. Thus it doesn't need a cause.

Which brings me to my argument that in fact there is a "God" but it exists outside the computer system in which we are being simulated. Mathematically it makes sense too. As our computers get more and more complicated we can simulate bigger things and do it better. It is more likely that someone already has done it; we are the result.


(And I heard on the radio that it is possible for any number to equal any other number, but I missed how it was worked out. If someone could chuck a link my way ...)

[DaCuBaN]

I can't believe how fast this discussion of god degenerated into a discussion on Quantum Mechanics.

:blink:
Degenerated :lol:

I for one would consider moving a discussion about an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud to that of the nature of quantum "particles" a step in the right direction ;)

[Xvall]

I'm not arguing with you. Just throwing in my own ideas:


First of all, if atheists are convinced God does not exist in any shape, way or form, you must be omniscient to prove that, currently humankind has such little understanding of the universe, so, its true, analyzing what we know, we could say God does not exist, but that brings me to my next point.

You pretty much answered this one yourself, but I'll elaborate. It is impossible to disprove a negative. Technically, no one can disprove the claim that there is an invisible dwarf-man floating above my head.


My second problem is this: From every effect, there is a cause, what was the cause for existance if it was not a creator? This I can't get around other than an outside force acting as the effect.

There is the big question. The answer? I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. I'm under the impression that people made up god so that they don't feel left behind. People do not enjoy not knowing how shit works. People didn't know how rain worked. It was a complete mystery that they had no means, at the time, of even begining to understand. As such, they made up some supersticious claims that some big man in the sky was dumping water out the window, spitting on the earth, urinating, or whatever. Today, we are able to understand how this works. The same applies to the universe. No one knows how it started - every notion is purely speculation, and no one can explain how existance, well, exists.

Im my personal opinion, we will never understand these things. There are some things in the universe that no human mind is capable of cognizing or comprehending. Our language, sciences, and minds in our current states of consciousness can not even begin to think about these things coherently.

[Rasta Sapian]

cause: God or whatever you prefer to call the creator creates the universe

effect: the universe ie. planet earth, life on earth, is created and contines to exist

simple right? Everything has a beginning and henseforth a creator, its logic

[DaCuBaN]

In future, please read the thread. A creator is not (I repeat: not) necessary to facilitate the creation of the universe.


One of the most mind-boggling properties of quantum particles is that they come into existence out of nowhere. Suck every molecule of air out of a bottle, making it completely vacuum -- and quantum particles will still be there. They pop up in pairs out of nowhere.

[Rasta Sapian]

holy crap man

[DaCuBaN]

Come on, if you're going to post ebaumsworld pics, at least make them funny!

I surmise you dislike the prospect of the universe being a truly meaningless void? Shame...

[katie mccready]

me and my friends beleve that it is prpetual motion time rvisets its self nothing can stop it no belef in a higher being will stop you from dieing no belef in a higher being will stop the wold from being destroyed. the sole, the sole is real if you where some how to creat a clone of your self it would not have your persanalty this is not to do with nature it is to do with nurture, your parents and your enviroment are your gods, they give you a sole they give you a prsonalty. people say you will go to heven or hell your sole will lev your body and you willgo to heven because you prased me and did a good dead once why should people who have been hartless all there life go to heven and those who died for some good corce go to hell no there is no heven or hell but every one contanes a small amount os electristy if atoms can't be created or destroyed then where does this electristy go?

But what ever i say you will not find one non belever on a crashing plane.

[seraphim]

Belief creates existence. God exists because so many believe he does, read American Gods gy Neil Gaiman it gives an interesting perspective.

[Free Spirit]

It depends on the definition of God? God doesn't have to be a word for creator; it's the supernatural existence, something above all life. So is there something above life because without life what do we have? A simple but jet complicated development of stones through time! Speaking of God is thousand of explanations. Before beige hesitantly wondering if God exists we all have a different picture of it. I'm not talking about the shape of God but the reason of its existence. Some see it as the spirit of being/existing, which leads to new creations (the creator in that way), The Christian God defines as all the good; something so pure, so good that it seems unreal. There's an opposite of everything and in that way Christianity creates devil even though life, humans or other life forms create everything that is "good" and "evil" so God is neither of it. God can be a force that makes everything run in this world, perhaps the spirit of life, nothing more or less. Or why not say that we all are gods, we make our own world run, we make it how it is, and we have a power to control our own life. (We are gods of ourselves, the inner spirit of each human).