Dirty Liberals

[enigma2517]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately thats definetly changed my opinion about a lot of things. Just earlier this year I was (almost) an all out John Kerry supporter. Made sense to me, really close election, John Kerry is the (more) left candidate, lets try and garner all the support we can for him. Little did I realize that he's simply less right.

I read on numerous socialist sites that "we don't believe things have to get worse before they get better" and we should support all progressive movements etc etc. I'm not sure but I think that the US Communist Party is an example of that. Now, thanks to some other useful information I've come across (this forum, RS2k, etc. ) I've realized how reforms that appease the working class only detract from their actual revolutionary spirit. Basically, I've detached myself from all illlusions that made me think that parlimentary politics are the solution to all of our problems. Reformism is a turtle-paced, circular process that rarely accomplishes anything. All that being said...I still think I'm missing something.

Basically, I need a good short and sweet argument I can tell all of my cappie liberal friends. I've already outlined some main points but I'd definetely appreciate any additions. Some related stuff should also be considered. For instance, whats so bad about John Kerry? Things like that...I dunno...I'm just rambling now. Help me out will ya :D . Thanks in advance

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

What's so bad about John Kerry?
The same things that are so bad about George Bush. He's our class enemy and nothing more. He nor any other Democrat can ever even begin to solve our problems.

Until one of them can give actuall power to the working class, the socialist movement should have nothing to do with these people. And we know they can't do that.

[robob8706]

While Kerry and Bush are just reactionaries there is still some hope. With Bush things will stay the same, while Kerry will change things for the better, not much better, but a tiny bit better nonetheless, and lets be realistic, a leftist uprising in america will not happen anytime soon, and the election is in the immediate future, so why make peoples lives suck when you can vote for Kerry and make their lives a little bit better, not much better, but something is better than nothing.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 07:32 PM
While Kerry and Bush are just reactionaries there is still some hope. With Bush things will stay the same, while Kerry will change things for the better, not much better, but a tiny bit better nonetheless, and lets be realistic, a leftist uprising in america will not happen anytime soon, and the election is in the immediate future, so why make peoples lives suck when you can vote for Kerry and make their lives a little bit better, not much better, but something is better than nothing.
Will your life be "better" under Kerry?

If so, how?

And if not, why should you assume anyone else's will?

The politicians come and go...everything still gets worse.

That's capitalism...and you don't get to vote on that!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[enigma2517]

Yes, admittingly it would seem that way. Stuff like foreign policy really doesn't seem to change. More or less imperialist. But what about economically? You can't deny the fact that reformist legislation has made some impact on working conditions, the environment, medical care, etc. I guess the rebuttle to that argument would be that those reforms are inefficient and cost much more to administer than the positive output they create for society (40 million americans without health insurance...pretty minimal). Then again, somebody can claim that their reform is something thats never been tried before. Can't change the nature of capitalism though, eh?

My friend considers himself a Marxist, don't know why, but he advocates the reformist path all the way. He says that socialism must come from democracy. Why can't we just "vote" a new system in...haha. I've got my own rebuttle to that as well but I'd love to hear some of yours. Some concrete historical evidence might help too...I can't just go along on generalized canned statements.