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Gringo-a-Go-Go
15th October 2004, 18:36
Infighting...
backstabbing...
hidden agendas...
careerism...
fallings-out...
acrimonious breakups...

The destruction of organizations by their own members, from the inside
-- losing years of built-up social equity: requiring everything be started all over again, usually from farther back than the first time.


In general, I'm interested in seeing where people are standing on this perennial problem in class society -- i.e. it's not limited to just the political Left. In particular, I'd like to see a discussion (if anyone is interested. They well should be) of present and ongoing struggles, right now, in Left groupings and organizations.
MOST particularly, I'd like to start off discussing the internal strife which is crippling WBAI -- the NYC Pacifica radio station -- as it is a prime example of this very issue (everyone reading this can listen to WBAI, as it streams its signal over the Internet too).


If this topic is already being covered in another forum, let me know.
Maybe there's a forum on united fronts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_front) -- the discussion of which is integral to this very subject.

redstar2000
16th October 2004, 17:20
I think this is a topic that's potentially pretty important...but it's difficult to know where you want to go with it.

For example, the squabbles at the Pacifica stations have been going on for decades...without any significance to the best of my knowledge.

What is your concept of a "united front"? Who, in principle, would you like to "unite with"? Why?

If you like, I'll move this topic to the Theory forum.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

SonofRage
16th October 2004, 17:33
Here in NYC, back in June, there was a big forum to discuss the possibility of a New York City Socialist Alliance (you can read about it here (http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/586/586p16d.htm)).

I think it was a good meeting, but I guess what my issue is, in all honesty, is that I don't really feel like I can be united with Leninist parties. Secondly, I think that if it were an electoral alliance, we'd risk watering down our message in order to "reach more people" or just getting stuck in reformist goals.

I tend to favor working with other anti-authoritarians, perhaps along the lines of the Red and Anarchist Action Network (RAAN) (http://www.redanarchist.org/pn/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=20). In a "united front" organized under something like RAAN, left libertarians could work together in a non-sectarian way and focus on education, agitation, and direct action.

Gringo-a-Go-Go
16th October 2004, 17:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:20 PM
I think this is a topic that's potentially pretty important...but it's difficult to know where you want to go with it.
I think this is why such a vital subject is being studiously avoided by so many people.


For example, the squabbles at the Pacifica stations have been going on for decades...without any significance to the best of my knowledge.
The situation is getting particularly acute at WBAI. It's not about entrepreneurial yuppies trying to co-opt the radio frequency for $$$ anymore. It's about a real -- and nasty -- power struggle ON THE LEFT inside the station. Race-baiting is a central issue.
This particular dynamic really concerns many, many groups on the Left -- and if we can't get past this stuff -- we can't move to the next level and really challenge the status quo.


What is your concept of a "united front"? Who, in principle, would you like to "unite with"? Why?
I think I would start with the classic Trotskyist definition -- and work from there.


If you like, I'll move this topic to the Theory forum.
I'm scratching my head on this category. The topic involves a real praxis situation.
Does it belong under theory? Or does it belong under practical political activity?
Jury's out, in my head, right now...
Suggestion?

Gringo-a-Go-Go
16th October 2004, 17:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:33 PM
I think it was a good meeting, but I guess what my issue is, in all honesty, is that I don't really feel like I can be united with Leninist parties. Secondly, I think that if it were an electoral alliance, we'd risk watering down our message in order to "reach more people" or just getting stuck in reformist goals.
Here we hit the first hurdle. This is not what a united front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_front) is about AFAIK.

FI, the famous slogan for the united front is: "March Separately; Strike Together!".

The whole point of a united front is to actually successfully DEAL with the types of reservations which you have just expressed.

redstar2000
16th October 2004, 23:38
Originally posted by Gringo-a-Go-Go
It's about a real -- and nasty -- power struggle ON THE LEFT inside the station. Race-baiting is a central issue.

If it's as serious as you say, then I guess you'd better fill us in on the details and the players. I can't imagine any kind of "united front" with overt racists.

Has NYC Indymedia covered these developments?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Gringo-a-Go-Go
17th October 2004, 00:06
Originally posted by redstar2000+Oct 16 2004, 10:38 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Oct 16 2004, 10:38 PM)
Gringo-a-Go-Go
It's about a real -- and nasty -- power struggle ON THE LEFT inside the station. Race-baiting is a central issue.
If it's as serious as you say, then I guess you'd better fill us in on the details and the players. I can't imagine any kind of "united front" with overt racists.

Has NYC Indymedia covered these developments?[/b]
It's all over various websites. Indy NYC I dunno. I'm not even in the U.S., eh?

When I say 'race-baiting' I mean that there is a BLACK nationalist crew (boy, do I EVER loathe "identity politix...") which has been more or less dominating the station forever(?), and due to weak leadership at the top of WBAI and Pacifica, etc. have gotten away with a huge amount of VERY nasty shit -- I've heard it myself with my own ears -- not to mention physical violence(!)
For instance, Amy Goodman and Democracy Now! actually moved their entire operation out of WBAI long ago on account of the intimidation -- and this is the BIG moneymaker program!

The claim from this other side (it is unclear how much DN! is behind the others) is that the real problem is: this year a democratically-elected board has been 'imposed' on these people; they don't like it; and they're now trying to subvert the entire democratic process in order to get back to the cozy situation they had before...
It's important to note here that WBAI is NOT apparently raising the money it needs to stay afloat -- in large part because of the constant fighting -- ON as well as off air.

I am unclear as to how much of this problem is complicated by the "reasonables" actually being the anti-communist Left -- i.e. pacifist liberals -- and how much the black nationalists actually represent revolutionary forces. It's quite murky and confusing... What else is new. But certainly the black nationalists have developed the most stupid, divisive tactix & strategy possible. If they are truly representing the revolutionary side of the NY Left, they very much have to have their collective noggins cracked together. And they are very worried about not being able to take over the eleceted board -- so they are constantly on about a 'white conspiracy'...

It's truly disgusting -- but it's more than that, because WBAI is truly one of the MOST important Left media in the entire english-speaking world -- and our bourgeois enemy is QUITE adept at working internal divisions in Left groups into permanent splits...
<:/

redstar2000
17th October 2004, 00:31
More on WBAI (and very confusing)...

Racism, Leadership and the Future of WBAI (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/126625/index.php)

Scroll down & read the comments.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Gringo-a-Go-Go
18th October 2004, 22:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:31 PM
More on WBAI (and very confusing)...
Racism, Leadership and the Future of WBAI (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/126625/index.php)
Glad you tied the IndyMedia article into this forum thread. Thanx.

IMO the most useful point made in that entire page is that WBAI really doesn&#39;t have a good plan for the future -- and that they&#39;re not getting new blood in from the surrounding multiplicity of communities.

I was listening (almost against my will) to one of the on-air WBAI candidates&#39; fora last nite. Most of the show was the same old acrimonious garbage -- but one of the partisans ended with his vision of building a capital fund for the construction of a WBAI community center, complete with auditorium, and record and community stores, etc.
Now if everyone could get behind THAT.

I also remember hearing about plans to get WBAI programming out into the communities -- live remote feeds from all over. This would certainly tie thousands and thousands of people into WBAI -- and to each other, and be the obvious source of new talent and resources.

There&#39;s so much WBAI hasn&#39;t been doing, on account of the lack of a common ideology on the Left, and the resultant working at cross-purposes. How groups, who will continue to disagree for a long time to come, can agree to disagree -- and still get on with the common task at hand -- is the proverbial &#036;64 question.

Gringo-a-Go-Go
18th October 2004, 23:07
Originally posted by SonofRage
here [Forum raises socialist unity] (http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/586/586p16d.htm)
I&#39;m glad SonofRage linked this here. It&#39;s a cogent example of the type of problem all attempts by the Left to organize to the next level face.

One thing that I think should be clear is that a united front mustn&#39;t be unity on any basis (FI, it&#39;s crystal clear to me that petit-bourgeois influences on workers, like pacifism, have to be systematically worked against. I don&#39;t care how "nice" these people are, personally).

FI, in the article, the League for a Revolutionary Party and the Spartacist League both proved once again that they have no apparent reason for existing -- other than to drag every Left initiate down. Nothing can be more useless than such sects, no matter how useful the literature they keep recycling onto the streets (mostly to attract new cadre, I guess...) I know that I wouldn&#39;t want groups like these to have anything like veto power over any group&#33; Better that the bright people they attract desert them and join with others in a growing, successful united front. And a successful united front would have them changing their ultra-left tune soon enuff, I&#39;ll bet.

As well, both the ISO and Socialist Alternative thought that a united front effort was either too much to take on -- or not nearly enuff&#33; (Certainly the Socialist Alternative pooh-pooh&#39;ed the formation of the now very successful Scottish Socialist Party/Alliance. Today they&#39;re pooh-pooh&#39;ing this effort...)

IMO, the problem with tiny baby steps is that you get bogged down in particular, one-issue struggles. As for jumping right into a Left party; lovely idea -- except for one small matter: there&#39;s no reasonable path anyone seems to know, going from HERE to THERE at this point in time. Why not just jump to communism, then, while we&#39;re at it?

So here is a bunch of squabbling sectarians already. What is to be done, eh?

Well, like for all the other people who weren&#39;t buying-into this crap, they could see the possibility of working in that space, somewhere between a party and "pretty-much-nothin&#39;-doin&#39;".

It is for this very type of situation that the concept of "minimum program" was conceived AFAIK.

redstar2000
19th October 2004, 01:30
Well, it&#39;s a "tough call"...

There&#39;s little question that a "unified left" would have a significantly greater impact than the scattered groups and isolated individuals that exist now.

But efforts at even partial unity often founder...because there&#39;s no set of "left ideas" that clearly predominates over any other -- that acts as a kind of "focus".

For example, consider the matter of electoral politics (any form: running candidates, supporting candidates, voting, etc.).

I would be regarded as an "ultra-leftist" on this question -- I think the only relationship that revolutionaries should have to bourgeois "elections" is one of relentlessly attacking them as fake&#33;

It would therefore be unprincipled of me to "unite" with those who are still spreading illusions about capitalist "democracy".

But some of the people who agree with me about this also think of revolution as an event that has as its primary purpose the achievement of state power for their own particular Leninist sect.

And there&#39;s no way I want to be involved in that shit&#33;

I think if you look carefully at the left, you&#39;ll find all kinds of situations like mine...the details will be different but these conflicts exist all over the place over all kinds of issues.

So, at best, I think significant unity on the left awaits the development of a coherent set of ideas about what it means to be left in the first place.

And, of greatest concern to me, what it means to be a revolutionary left.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

SonofRage
19th October 2004, 02:41
I&#39;m very much in the same situation as Redstar2k. I very reluctantly spoke at that event at the last minute and if I had the time to prepare what I would have said would have come off as "ultra-left." I think electoral campaigns can be useful, but only if it to show that capitalist "democracy" is a fraud. I don&#39;t even like a "minimum program." I believe any electoral campaign should go all out with maximum demands such as "Abolition of the wage system."

It&#39;s tough, because there does seem to be a desire in the NYC for a socialist electoral alliance.

Gringo-a-Go-Go
20th October 2004, 20:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 12:30 AM
Well, it&#39;s a "tough call"...

There&#39;s little question that a "unified left" would have a significantly greater impact than the scattered groups and isolated individuals that exist now.
OK... Now that we&#39;ve gotten past the obvious...
;P


But efforts at even partial unity often founder...because there&#39;s no set of "left ideas" that clearly predominates over any other -- that acts as a kind of "focus".

For example, consider the matter of electoral politics (any form: running candidates, supporting candidates, voting, etc.).
But what do you mean by "unity", exactly?
IMO the biggest problem with people&#39;s attitudes to united fronts and coming together stems from assumptions that &#39;coming together&#39; means &#39;being stuck together&#39;. Like a bad marriage. Like in a party or an electoral coalition.

A united front, as I understand it, is instead little more than a "coalition of the willing", actually. The whole point of a united front is AFAIK to make possible the loose federation of disparate, heterodox elements behind some common (often single) goal -- which they can agree to. The whole point is to not get bogged-down in just these very "gotchas". Of course we all want more -- but where do you start??

FI, one of the basic ideas we would all agree on is that capitalism must go. This would IMO scare away many pacifist, liberal types (if not immediately, then down the road, as what this means becomes clear to them) -- which would be just fine with me.


I would be regarded as an "ultra-leftist" on this question -- I think the only relationship that revolutionaries should have to bourgeois "elections" is one of relentlessly attacking them as fake&#33;

It would therefore be unprincipled of me to "unite" with those who are still spreading illusions about capitalist "democracy".
FI where I would stand in relation to you on this is:
We&#39;d both agree that bourgeois "democracy" and it&#39;s parliamentary institutions should be relentlessly attacked as decrepit, and in dire need of being replaced immediately by socialist democracy. No strategic alliances with bourgeois parties. Ever.

As regards our possible differences on the use of the present bourgeois institutions:
They are there, and need to be used as a platform for &#39;spreading the good word&#39;; so electing deputies whose only job is to help bring about the dissolution of the institutions they are in (besides protecting and advancing workers&#39; interests best they can in the chamber), is not antithetical to your stance IMO. We would make it ultra-clear to everyone that this was not support of the system -- but merely arranging a chance to grab at the microphone on the platform. We&#39;d be a hostile camp forcing our way into a tense little pow-wow.
But such a situation would require a sustained, highly organized effort -- which is not what a united front is about AFAIK.

And it should be made clear again that a united front is absolutely not about "being inclusive". That&#39;s bourgeois pacifist claptrap. If we are in a socialist united front, there is a minimum program we adhere to, which is shorn of all things bourgeois. The only thing complicating this would be the inclusion of the petit-bourgeois currents who would naturally -- and logically -- be attracted to it, regardless of their fast-fading present bourgeois delusions.


But some of the people who agree with me about this also think of revolution as an event that has as its primary purpose the achievement of state power for their own particular Leninist sect.

And there&#39;s no way I want to be involved in that shit&#33;
So who would put up with that in a united front?


I think if you look carefully at the left, you&#39;ll find all kinds of situations like mine...the details will be different but these conflicts exist all over the place over all kinds of issues.
The whole point of this thread.


So, at best, I think significant unity on the left awaits the development of a coherent set of ideas about what it means to be left in the first place.

And, of greatest concern to me, what it means to be a revolutionary left.
Are we going to sit around forever, waiting for the marxist Godot?
The very idea of the united front is to break this very "praxis logjam", where none of us moves forward, because the organization for our movement is not in existence yet; yet to get to that level of organization, we must first move..&#33;

Which IMO means we&#39;re back to simply trying to agree on the lowest common denominator as a first baby step -- and this is the essence of what "united front" means AFAIK. Otherwise we are basically reduced to just sitting back and waiting for the moment when millions of people finally -- spontaneously -- take to the streets; and take our chances with every lunatic current also vying for power in that chaos.

Gringo-a-Go-Go
20th October 2004, 22:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 01:41 AM
I&#39;m very much in the same situation as Redstar2k. I very reluctantly spoke at that event at the last minute and if I had the time to prepare what I would have said would have come off as "ultra-left." I think electoral campaigns can be useful, but only if it to show that capitalist "democracy" is a fraud.
That&#39;s a general statement on bourgeois democracy and our attitude towards it; but what actual plans are we supposed to develop to deal with this reality (read what I wrote in my previous post about elections). What are our goals specifically? What&#39;s the alternative? What&#39;s the program? (What&#39;s the frequency, Kenneth..?&#33;?)


I don&#39;t even like a "minimum program." I believe any electoral campaign should go all out with maximum demands such as "Abolition of the wage system."
We all want communism. Right Now too (and loox like I have to approach you &#39;from the Right&#39; here; which is pretty funny considering what a dangerous &#39;terrorist&#39; communist the bourgeois state considers me to be...)

Let me point out that pushing a minimum program doesn&#39;t imply the lack of a maximum one. It merely implies that you&#39;re not "campaigning" on the maximum one; you&#39;re not organizing your united front on the basis of one. Yet.

The reason why ultra-leftism is a non-starter is because big jumps -- in advance of the Revolution, that is -- are invariably a guarantee of failure (how many million examples of this would you want me to present to you?) The problem is: how are disparate classes of people to work together in unison, towards an already difficult goal -- when most of them have no idea that this plan is even feasible? That they&#39;re not wasting their time or even uselessly endangering their and their families&#39; lives on a long-shot? If the goal is not just a fantasy, even?

Your plan would only work if the working-class was already highly class-conscious. Uber class-conscious. And you get that kind of consciousness generally only when the Revolution is already underway (I wish it were different; and it would be different if we had a mass party worthy of the name, FI). Which is why ultra-leftism always inevitably comes across as ass-backwards before then.

When the Revolution actually &#39;comes down&#39; -- then talking about small jumps would be reactionary. Timing is always a consideration, understand. No fixed categories.


It&#39;s tough, because there does seem to be a desire in the NYC for a socialist electoral alliance.
So we all desperately require some minimum program -- because the electoral goal seems &#39;way out there&#39; at this moment. I&#39;d suggest backing off the electoral stuff for now. That clearly doesn&#39;t come first IMO -- it comes later on, after some success with other issues. However, if three big groups, say, can agree on candidates and a platform -- then by all means go fo it.

redstar2000
21st October 2004, 00:27
Originally posted by Gringo&#045;a&#045;go&#045;go
...the biggest problem with people&#39;s attitudes to united fronts and coming together stems from assumptions that &#39;coming together&#39; means &#39;being stuck together&#39;. Like a bad marriage. Like in a party or an electoral coalition.

I think it&#39;s more basic than that; it&#39;s finding yourself "obligated" (as a consequence of the dynamics of the "united front") to publicly support something to which you are actually opposed, or to opposing something that you actually support.

Think about how these "united fronts" are actually set up and run. Usually there is a particular "left" group that takes the initiative; that group then does whatever it can to pull together "a coalition of the willing"...other groups which see some reason to become involved in this effort.

The "line" is basically set by the initiating group...although another group, if large enough or wealthy enough or both, can have considerable influence on that "line".

The people who are guaranteed to have no influence on the "line" are the ordinary members of the participating groups...they are "out of the loop", period.

What "united fronts" seem to become in practice are coalitions of leaders. There&#39;s little contact (much less political discussion) between the members of the participating groups except perhaps during the ritualized demonstration.

Indeed, the whole idea has an "air of ritual" to it...something that&#39;s done not so much as to actually change anything but rather to enhance the status and prestige of the leaders who set it up.

Electoral "united fronts" are particularly reprehensible, of course...their plain and obvious purpose is to get a handful of leaders onto the public payroll, period.

The "programs" (minimum, maximum, or whatever) are just so much hot air.

But even those "united fronts" focused on a particular outrage -- against the imperialist occupation of Iraq, for example -- suffer from these dynamics. It "looks impressive" to see 500,000 people demonstrate against U.S. imperialism...no question about it.

But how strong was the anti-imperialist message, really? Were there people "up on the stand" talking about the UN taking over Iraq? Were candidates for public office plugged...or even invited to speak?

There are just so many ways that these kinds of spectacles can be manipulated...and never for "a good purpose".


...one of the basic ideas we would all agree on is that capitalism must go.

And who could disagree with that?

Well, actually, a whole lot of people might agree with that verbal formula and yet mean wildly disparate things by it.

Consider all those who wish to replace capitalism with socialism...an authoritarian centralized state apparatus that "owns" everything and keeps the working class in the same place as it is now -- wage-slavery.

Or the democratic socialists -- who want to do the same thing but with a veneer of "democracy" akin to the "democracy" provided by capitalism.

What do I have in common with those who want a new class society "with a human face"?

A boss is a boss is a boss...whether he calls himself a Nazi, a compassionate conservative, or a socialist, he&#39;s still a boss&#33;

In my "ultra-leftist" view, all bosses are bad&#33;


As regards our possible differences on the use of the present bourgeois institutions: They are there, and need to be used as a platform for &#39;spreading the good word&#39;; so electing deputies whose only job is to help bring about the dissolution of the institutions they are in (besides protecting and advancing workers&#39; interests best they can in the chamber), is not antithetical to your stance.

I&#39;m afraid that this view is antithetical to my position...and very deeply so.

There&#39;s a very long thread (just concluded) on this subject...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29685

...thus I am reluctant to "start it up" again right away.

But briefly, the only "good word" that you "spread" from the platform of bourgeois "elections" is that you want a good "job".

You can say anything you like...but every listener sees what you&#39;re doing and draws the correct conclusion.

You&#39;re just another politician...and, like all the rest, a bastard.


Are we going to sit around forever, waiting for the marxist Godot?

Have you ever noticed the funny habit on the "left" of responding to criticism of a particular strategy with the rhetorical "bombshell": "Well, I guess you just want to sit around and wait for the revolution&#33;"?

If I had a dollar for every time I&#39;ve been labeled an "armchair theorizer", I could...buy an armchair. :lol:

Frankly speaking, I do have a pretty low opinion of most of what passes for "left strategy" these days...I think much of it is permeated with reformism, reeks of servility, and is theoretically incoherent.

Does that mean that we have to "wait"? Or does it mean that we seek out the good examples (there are some) and try to develop better examples?

As "improbable" as it seems, I think it better to do a small thing that helps the revolution than a grandiose thing that hurts it. I think it better to mount small acts of resistance or to encourage them where they exist than it is to wrap oneself in bourgeois illusions about what it means to be "political" and "serious".

In short, many on the "left" find me to be "a grumpy old man" -- I suspect that&#39;s code for "insufferable pain in the ass".

Nevertheless, I offer the consistent advice: Think before you act...amaze your friends and confound your enemies.


Otherwise we are basically reduced to just sitting back and waiting for the moment when millions of people finally -- spontaneously -- take to the streets; and take our chances with every lunatic current also vying for power in that chaos.

We have to "wait" for that to happen no matter what we do or don&#39;t do...no one "makes" a revolution except the masses themselves.

The most basic purpose of revolutionaries is to provide the masses with revolutionary ideas...to give them the "best chance" to "get it right". Everything we do has to ultimately serve that purpose.

I&#39;m sure there will be "lunatic currents vying for power"...but if we have done our job, they will have no significant appeal.

And they may not anyway...the working class of this century does not appear to be looking for a "Moses" in anything like the way the workers of the 19th and 20th centuries did.

That&#39;s a good sign.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Gringo-a-Go-Go
21st October 2004, 01:54
Here&#39;s a link to a short, succinct piece on united fronts (http://www.marxists.org/archive/hallas/works/1976/01/unitedfront.htm) at Marxists.org:

I think it may help get to the nub of what redstar2000 is objecting to.

Gringo-a-Go-Go
21st October 2004, 02:57
These emails will turn into boox if we don&#39;t break them up -- so I&#39;ll just take the first part of redstar2000&#39;s reply here, and get to the rest systematically later:


Originally posted by redstar2000+--> (redstar2000)[quote]Gringo&#045;a&#045;Go&#045;Go
Think about how these "united fronts" are actually set up and run. Usually there is a particular "left" group that takes the initiative; that group then does whatever it can to pull together "a coalition of the willing"...other groups which see some reason to become involved in this effort.

The "line" is basically set by the initiating group...although another group, if large enough or wealthy enough or both, can have considerable influence on that "line".

The people who are guaranteed to have no influence on the "line" are the ordinary members of the participating groups...they are "out of the loop", period.
Well this has been the actual problem, hasn&#39;t it? This is part of what actually has to be solved.

If you&#39;re saying by this that you don&#39;t believe we can surmount typical stumbling blox like this (at least in the near-term), then I will say that I disagree. I believe that we can get past exactly just such problems. Hell -- we even have this sorry history to learn from.

Proposals, we can deal with later. At our leisure.