Not Hispanic! Not Latino!

[Paradox]

Where do those of us who are of Mexican, Central or South "american" decent, stand on the use of the terms "hispanic" and "latino." In my opinion, being raped doesn't make you one them. The Spanish forced their ways upon my Indigenous ancestors. They destroyed our culture and traditions. They say "mestizo" means a mixture of cultures. So why then is it only the Spanish side of us that is acknowledged. Most of the Mexican people I know, don't even realize they have Indian blood in them, which the majority of Mexicans do. I only see Spanish surnames, and I don't hear any Native languages. Very few of the people I know feel that their Indian heritage is of any importance or significance. And we can see that our true identities are further disappearing. Just look at all the fake blonds and people putting in blue contact lenses. It's sad really. Hispanic means of Spanish origins; Spain, the Spanish language. Latino also comes from Europe. We are not from Europe! We were raped and beaten into submission! Please! Don't let them fool you! Our people were not savages! We had great civilizations. Don't let them erase the history of our peoples. If you're a full blooded Spaniard, fine, you are Hispanic. But don't spit on my Native history and culture with your racist application of those terms on my people. Support the Mexica-Movement!!! Mexica-Movement.org! 100% Native at soul!!!

Anahuac education is our only liberation!!!

[EneME]

Where do those of us who are of Mexican, Central or South "american" decent, stand on the use of the terms "hispanic" and "latino."
Whats wrong with being "latino/a"? If someone is from Latin America...being called "latino/a" sounds appropriate. I personally agree with you about the word "Hispanic," people around me know that I am against it and correct those who call me that because I am not Spanish...I'm Latin American.


They say "mestizo" means a mixture of cultures.
Yes, I do see myself as Mestizo because I am a mixture of those bastard colonialists and native central americans....this mixture has then created a whole new ethnicity. I could never call myself native because I'm not...I am a mixture, and I would feel like I was insulting the native people's who do still practice their culture in my country.


So why then is it only the Spanish side of us that is acknowledged. Most of the Mexican people I know, don't even realize they have Indian blood in them, which the majority of Mexicans do. I only see Spanish surnames, and I don't hear any Native languages. Very few of the people I know feel that their Indian heritage is of any importance or significance.
It is sadly true that it is an embedded thought in Latin American culture to believe that being "native" is negative or "uncivilized." I hate to say it, but I see it very prevalent in Mexican culture, since most of my best friends are Mexican themselves. It's very common for someone to proclaim that they are Mexican, but of "only spanish" ancestry, as if that makes them better.


look at all the fake blonds and people putting in blue contact lenses.
Latina women are really commonly trying to change themselves by dying their hair lighter, straightening it, and putting contacts in...and I think this is accepting the thought that being more european is "better" and being native is "wrong." The latin community HAS GOT TO change that mentality, and we've got to teach young girls that they're beautiful just as they are. I, myself, fell victim to that as a teenager but I grew up and realized that I'm proud to be Salvadoran with my kinky-ass hair....and being myself is the best form of resistance I've used againt Imperialism. ;)

As a side note: This reminded me of an event that happened a couple weeks before my nephew was born when I spoke to his mother and his other aunt, who are Latin American as well. His father is very dark and has a pretty large nose with a bump on it (a feature that is commonly tied to "native" peoples). His mother, on the other hand, is light skinned with a small nose and slanted eyes....and his other aunt said, "well he might come out just like his father with slanted eyes, and look very indeginous." His mother instinctly said "no, don't say that!" Immediately his other aunt and I looked at eachother really puzzled and said "why not? that would be so awesome." After seeing her reaction, she began to slightly agree. It made me think of how subconsciously prevalent this prejudice is, and especially because we are all young, progressive, latina women living in the U$....its really quite depressing that she might continue this prejudice onto her children.

[Paradox]

Technically, the word Latin describes people from southern Europe such as the Spanish and Portuguese. We are not Latin in origin. It's just another way to deny us our Indian connections. I did not mean to insult anyone, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. But as you stated:


It is sadly true that it is an embedded thought in Latin American culture to believe that being "native" is negative or "uncivilized." I hate to say it, but I see it very prevalent in Mexican culture, since most of my best friends are Mexican themselves. It's very common for someone to proclaim that they are Mexican, but of "only spanish" ancestry, as if that makes them better.


I recognize that I have Spanish blood flowing through my veins. But I do not think this makes me hispanic or latino. In high school, my u.$. history teacher tried to tell me that Mexicans are white!!! Of course, we know this is totally false, unless you're a full-blooded Spaniard. Personally, I feel strong connections to my Indigenous heritage. I can't really explain it, I just woke up one day and realized that I was Indian. I respect that you consider yourself mestizo. I'd say that is the most accurate term, and should be used in place of hispanic and latino. Still, many people have to realize that they HAVE Indigenous blood in them, as many of them don't. Or, they don't care, as we have already established.


Latina women are really commonly trying to change themselves by dying their hair lighter, straightening it, and putting contacts in...and I think this is accepting the thought that being more european is "better" and being native is "wrong." The latin community HAS GOT TO change that mentality, and we've got to teach young girls that they're beautiful just as they are.

I agree 100%. We must stop this self-hatred of our Native heritage.
If mestizo means a mixture of two cultures, then we must show both sides, not just that of the conqueror. We must free our minds of this "white is better" mentality.

[Pawn Power]

we are all human beings

[GoaRedStar]

Actually the word Latin now in days describes people that speak a language close to the Latin language for example spanish,italian,portuguese,and french.

The first latin people where the Romans (rome is located in a area call Latium in central Italy)

During the expansion of the Roman Empire rome began to romanize some of the conquered people and others where in awe of the roman culture so they started to imitate the language.

Thats why we have so many languages that sound like Latin and that why people that speak these languages are call Latin.


Many centuries after Rome the Discovery Age in Europe came about, and countrys like Spain ,Portugal , and France where conquering in the Americas. After years of force cultural change and some of the native who where in awe of the culture , the Meso culture fuse with the Latin culture. And that why people from Mexico to the southern tip of Chile and places in the Caribbean are call Latin Americans or Latinos.

Latin is just a culture its not a race

[Soul Rebel]

If you're a full blooded Spaniard, fine, you are Hispanic. But don't spit on my Native history and culture with your racist application of those terms on my people.

you know, as a full blooded spaniard (well, gallega more than anything), i can honestly tell you that "we" dont use the terms thinking that there is a "racist application." we just them because they are really the only terms that we have. however, we know the difference between indigenous and than latino and hispanic and use these terms appropriately when we discuss or address these groups of people.

man, i hope this doesnt sound insensitive or anything because its not my intention: More than anything now, spaniards have realized and acknowledged what was done in the past, have learned how that destroyed others, etc. To most spaniards now, especially my age or my parents ages or even grandparents age, we feel extremely bad about that, and are often embarassed by that history. Its not something we brag about or bring up to make us look super. We actually feel bad. We cant change what happened, but recognition of what happened is all we can offer- which is a lot better than denial. And we (the present population) didnt do this, our ancestors did, so please don't continue to hold the present population as responsible when the reality is that majority of us are very respectful of your culture. Do you get what im sayin'?

i dont intend to sound mean or though i dont understand, because i do, i really do. and i feel what you are saying completely. i dont think any culture should hide their roots or change who they are in order to feel comfortable or fit in any society. its a very sad thing. because of the european ideas asian cultures have had to change as well. you see young asians having surgery on their eyes, for example. you also see lightening creams in supermarkets and beauty shops for african americans. the list goes on. if anything is to change the media needs to stop portraying these attributes as ideals of beauty. but in order for the media to stop this, there needs to be a resistance by groups against these ideas. however, its a bit hard when these ideas have been engrained in the mind for centuries.

[SonofRage]

Race is a myth, a social construct based on arbitrarily chosen physical characteristics. There can be more genetic variations within the so-called "races' than between people of "different races."

Sure, I consider myself a Latino and that is my culture, but it is more important to remember that there is only a single human race.

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 08:07 AM
Whats wrong with being "latino/a"? If someone is from Latin America...being called "latino/a" sounds appropriate. I personally agree with you about the word "Hispanic," people around me know that I am against it and correct those who call me that because I am not Spanish...I'm Latin American.


Yes, I do see myself as Mestizo because I am a mixture of those bastard colonialists and native central americans....this mixture has then created a whole new ethnicity. I could never call myself native because I'm not...I am a mixture, and I would feel like I was insulting the native people's who do still practice their culture in my country.


It is sadly true that it is an embedded thought in Latin American culture to believe that being "native" is negative or "uncivilized." I hate to say it, but I see it very prevalent in Mexican culture, since most of my best friends are Mexican themselves. It's very common for someone to proclaim that they are Mexican, but of "only spanish" ancestry, as if that makes them better.


Latina women are really commonly trying to change themselves by dying their hair lighter, straightening it, and putting contacts in...and I think this is accepting the thought that being more european is "better" and being native is "wrong." The latin community HAS GOT TO change that mentality, and we've got to teach young girls that they're beautiful just as they are. I, myself, fell victim to that as a teenager but I grew up and realized that I'm proud to be Salvadoran with my kinky-ass hair....and being myself is the best form of resistance I've used againt Imperialism. ;)

As a side note: This reminded me of an event that happened a couple weeks before my nephew was born when I spoke to his mother and his other aunt, who are Latin American as well. His father is very dark and has a pretty large nose with a bump on it (a feature that is commonly tied to "native" peoples). His mother, on the other hand, is light skinned with a small nose and slanted eyes....and his other aunt said, "well he might come out just like his father with slanted eyes, and look very indeginous." His mother instinctly said "no, don't say that!" Immediately his other aunt and I looked at eachother really puzzled and said "why not? that would be so awesome." After seeing her reaction, she began to slightly agree. It made me think of how subconsciously prevalent this prejudice is, and especially because we are all young, progressive, latina women living in the U$....its really quite depressing that she might continue this prejudice onto her children.
This understanding has been a real struggle for me in the last six years, and I can get angry. I am Sephardic and I have Native American ancestory on two sides, but not from the same places (Inquisition) when I lived in New Mexico many of my friends who considered themselves "Spanish going back 500 years in New Mexico, thank you" were excited that they could be related to me back through Toledo, oh so many years ago when the city was disbanded and they went to Sante Fe to hide persecution and my family went to Turkey, but I was much more hit by how they had characteristics of local tribes.

My own father as he has aged, he is mentally disabled now, but still maintains the proud posture of a Native American man with hawk nose and eagle eyes. He's always looked very Native despite his Albanian and Gypsy heritage as well, but somehow they all melded together into a Nomadic person with great pride and dignity in harmony with the Earth, who when he was whole took on the cause of the Sioux, his mother supported "Indian Schools" in Arizona till her death, her generation not supporting the "Native American" term, and keeping the handicrafts with her till her death, they were a warrior family, I am the last connection of with an Anglized last name, but whose pride comes out of it's Lenape traditions as being related to Tribal Chiefs.

Enough dribble:
In New Mexico I would have to support Navaho/Sephardic female friends who although they appeared Latina, were not Latina in being threatened by Latinas for being "Uppity" ie. they ascribed to Native female STRENGTH and had been cultured and raised as Native Princess with pride rather as a subservient Chicana, at parties I would hear groups of Latinas talk about punching her up when she would leave the room, and I would have to explain she was Navaho, they would get real weird then, I can't really describe the reaction.
BUT IT HAD A LOT TO DO WITH a long standing anomosity between Native Women and Latinas in New Mexico.

Later in Chiapas I remember coming out of the woods in Native embrodried dress with my hair braided by my Mayan friends to board a bus and arrive in the stainless steel engineering of Tabasco.

People actually AVOIDED ME although the people whom I met often were of such strong Indios descent their skin was bronze they would walk 3-4 feet from me and stare! The next thing was even stranger, some people would be curious and approach me like I contained some sort of magic from the mountain, the feeling was clear, I had been in contact with groups they feared but also respected, but were fearful of having contact with as if it would cause something to arise in them they could not control. Fear of one's self. Some reacted as if I was ignorant to to not understand the primitiveness of the native ways to the superiority of the Spanish ways.

When I got to Mexico City people stopped me in the street to touch my hair and ask questions, the traces of from where I had just come brought much hope. Yet their culture seemed so much more Spanish then Tabasco. (OIL)

People speak of everyone being Mestizo, but then I have heard of Indios troops in the Mexican Army being forced to lick the boots of their Spanish sargenents, also I have pictures of the grand generals coming out of the Federal palace, motherfucker is BONE WHITE, there is no Mestizo blood in that motherfucker, the crowd around when he came out realized it too, and there was a mixture of fear and repulsiion that went through the brown skinned crowd of peasants and small business people. IT was strange everyone just starred frozen at his white face as if they couldn't believe it, the big lie.

The "Spanish" land grant private institution that educated ALL THE BUSHES in Albuerque New Mexico considers itself WHite Spanish not Mestizo.

My grandmother was overjoyed when I was born that I was first with light skin and light hair and eyes out of eight born before me who were dark, or dark with light eyes, or dark complected and with dark eyes with lightish hair. I found this sad, and explains a lot of the weirdness towards me by other family members when I was young. For one side of the family with 80 members, I was the lightest member of the family ever to be born, although their were others after me, and one second cousin had light hair as well, when I consider the weirdness, I wish I had been born dark I would have been treated with much more dignity.

[PRC-UTE]

If I remember correctly, the goals of the EZLN included the legalisation of their native language and law system. I strongly support these efforts.

Like you I've been surprised that so many Mexicans identify so strongly with the spanish language. In the U$ there is a lot of effort by the natives to keep alive / reclaim their language and the navajo are meeting with some success.

The Irish have also fought for our language and identity and I hate plastic paddies who think that the Irish language is english spoken with a brogue!

[Paradox]

I repeat- I DID NOT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE. I am NOT holding the current generation responsible for the crimes of the past. Well, not most of them anyway. Because there still are plenty of people out there who don't give a damn. Look at Mexican tv. They've got a channel called the "Azteca" station. But, how many Indians do you see in their news broadcasts and programs? On any of the Mexican stations for that matter. The majority of people who today don't know the significance behind terms like "hispanic" and "latino," don't know out of ignorance. Information is held back, lies are told, people are misled. It's just like the media here, misleading the public. The majority of people don't know that the u.$. trained osama bin laden; they don't know that the u.$. gave saddam chemical weapons to go war with Iran; they don't know that hamid karzai, interim president of Afghanistan, had ties to UNOCAL, and plans for a pipeline through Afghanistan; THEY DON'T KNOW. They are lied to everyday. Therefore, I CANNOT hold people responsible for something they know nothing about. The people I AM holding responsible, are the people WHO KNOW, and CONTINUE to feed these lies to the public. There are "hispanic" websites that list INDIGENOUS historical information. Imagine that, Native history on a "hispanic" website.


there is only a single human race.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I will NEVER trade humanity for ethnocentrism. But, I CANNOT deny the STRONG spiritual connections I feel to my Native ancestors. The blood of a chief (my great great grandfather) flows through my veins. I can feel it. I KNOW it. And I can NEVER abandon my people.

[DarkAngel]

Where all humans.....we're all one. We just grew up in different cultures. You should be proud of your culture but not to the point where you get seriously offended at every little misconception or whatever, bout your race.

[Valkyrie]

I don't think there are pure racial bloodlines anymore..and probably for the better as it has caused massive amounts of genocide in the past. I think if one would venture far enough into their family tree they would find every culture, racial bloodline in existence passed right down to yourself.

[PRC-UTE]

Part Celtic, Valkyrie? From which country?

Nice avatar!

[Valkyrie]

Part Irish, from County Armagh to be exact. but born in the States.

My avatar, thanks! Yup.. I gotta say.. the HS stirred my heart to the cause, even learned of El Che through Bobby Sands.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 09:20 PM
I CANNOT deny the STRONG spiritual connections I feel to my Native ancestors. The blood of a chief (my great great grandfather) flows through my veins. I can feel it. I KNOW it. And I can NEVER abandon my people.
Honestly, and you may not want to hear this, all that "spiritual connection" stuff you are feeling is just in your head. I agree, you should not abandon your people...the international working class.

It's romantic and inspiring to think of "the blood of a chief" flowing through your veins, but it doesn't mean anything. Perhaps the blood of a janitor or a used car salesman flows through your veins as well, but I guess that's not as "cool."

Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with having a spiritual side. What I'm not cool with is when spirituality becomes religion.

[Paradox]

Perhaps the blood of a janitor or a used car salesman flows through your veins as well, but I guess that's not as "cool."

HEY! Don't make fun of janitors! I have to do janitorial work at the resturaunt I work at, even though I'm a busser. I don't look down on janitors, or people with jobs people consider unappealing. They're hard workers. Of couse, I know you didn't mean to knock them down, you were only using them as an example. I don't think of it as "cool" to have the blood of a chief- I think of it as a sign of my duty to help my people achieve justice and equality. I don't care for anything that is considered "cool" or "trendy." That's just another form of brainwashing and makes people materialistic and individualistic. I don't care for such things.


Honestly, and you may not want to hear this, all that "spiritual connection" stuff you are feeling is just in your head.

That is an opinion. I cannot convince you that there IS a Creator, and you can't convince me that there ISN'T one. To me those spiritual connections are true. I didn't believe in God earlier in my life. And to tell the truth, when I was younger, I didn't even care that I was Indian. Nobody told me about my culture, my people's history, or anything like that. I just "woke up" one day. All of a sudden, I had this quest to learn as much as I could about my Native cultures, though I haven't found much about my specific tribes. The only way I can describe it is as a spiritual awakening. I realized that I WAS INDIAN, heart and soul.


What I'm not cool with is when spirituality becomes religion.

I agree that religion can have a negitive effect on society. Take for example the Christian preachers and the Islamic fundamentalists. The Christian leaders say the Bible is the only way, that all other view points, including those of Native people, are wrong. And Islamic fundamentalists have the same opinion, only they're defending Islam. What my people believed in was a spiritual bond with the Creator and everything He created. MITAKUYE OYASIN means "all my relations." This refers to the fact that all land and life, plants, animals, and people, are interrelated. We are all one. Whatever happens to one part affects the rest. My people did not see themselves as superior to the Europeans- the Europeans saw themselves as superior to us. And that's how we ended up where we are today. I will fight to help my Native people. I will fight to help ALL poor and exploited people. But, I will do so knowing in my HEART as well as my mind, that I am an Indian. An Indian who does occasional janitorial work, and there's nothing wrong with that. :D

[Valkyrie]

I Wholly agree, the International Working Class!

[EneME]

Originally posted by SonofRage+Oct 19 2004, 02:13 AM--> (SonofRage @ Oct 19 2004, 02:13 AM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 09:20 PM
I CANNOT deny the STRONG spiritual connections I feel to my Native ancestors. The blood of a chief (my great great grandfather) flows through my veins. I can feel it. I KNOW it. And I can NEVER abandon my people.
Honestly, and you may not want to hear this, all that "spiritual connection" stuff you are feeling is just in your head. I agree, you should not abandon your people...the international working class.

It's romantic and inspiring to think of "the blood of a chief" flowing through your veins, but it doesn't mean anything. Perhaps the blood of a janitor or a used car salesman flows through your veins as well, but I guess that's not as "cool."

Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with having a spiritual side. What I'm not cool with is when spirituality becomes religion. [/b]
My thoughts exactly SoR...


Technically, the word Latin describes people from southern Europe such as the Spanish and Portuguese. We are not Latin in origin. It's just another way to deny us our Indian connections.
But, if you are not COMPLETELY of Indian/Native decent...and you ARE mestizo (as I am) with some European influences....what do you think we should call ourselves then? To me, if I am to deny my european ancestry with such benevolence and rage....that is just as bad as those Mestizo's who deny their Native ancestry...why not accept both?


I recognize that I have Spanish blood flowing through my veins. But I do not think this makes me hispanic or latino.
What do you call yourself then?


I can't really explain it, I just woke up one day and realized that I was Indian.
Aren't you denying the European ancestry in you as well? Would you ever in all seriousness tell this to a Mayan in Chiapas or a Native in Guatemala? That one day you woke up "Indian"?

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 02:49 AM
Where do those of us who are of Mexican, Central or South "american" decent, stand on the use of the terms "hispanic" and "latino." In my opinion, being raped doesn't make you one them. The Spanish forced their ways upon my Indigenous ancestors. They destroyed our culture and traditions. They say "mestizo" means a mixture of cultures. So why then is it only the Spanish side of us that is acknowledged. Most of the Mexican people I know, don't even realize they have Indian blood in them, which the majority of Mexicans do. I only see Spanish surnames, and I don't hear any Native languages. Very few of the people I know feel that their Indian heritage is of any importance or significance. And we can see that our true identities are further disappearing. Just look at all the fake blonds and people putting in blue contact lenses. It's sad really. Hispanic means of Spanish origins; Spain, the Spanish language. Latino also comes from Europe. We are not from Europe! We were raped and beaten into submission! Please! Don't let them fool you! Our people were not savages! We had great civilizations. Don't let them erase the history of our peoples. If you're a full blooded Spaniard, fine, you are Hispanic. But don't spit on my Native history and culture with your racist application of those terms on my people. Support the Mexica-Movement!!! Mexica-Movement.org! 100% Native at soul!!!

Anahuac education is our only liberation!!!
Respect there...this however makes me feel guilty of actually having Latino blood and no Indian blood...all of my mother's side of the family are from European descent...somewhere in a long far away past (French and Spanish).

But I agree that the Indian culture should be shown more, rise up more...I want to see more Indian names.

It's sad to see that the media here (I live in Holland) show the Indians in Latin America (sorry for using that term) as nothing more than savages or kids who are addicted to drugs. Eventhough the Indian cultures (Mayas, Azteks and Incas to name the mostly known) were in my opinion superior to the European cultures of that time (and even to the European cultures now).

If you go to Peru and see Machu Pichu, or see the Inca stuff around Cuzco you can do nothing more than to be very impressed, and then see that being raped by a big Spanish cathedral...I mean the cathedral looks beautiful, but it's still a symbol of oppression and how the Inca people got screwed over.

*is ashamed of being from European descent* :ph34r:

[gaf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 10:49 AM


*is ashamed of being from European descent* :ph34r:
agree. pitty that history lessons don't take it to account.....
but and there is always a but
what would you schiet op.you know,i know but i didn't do it.....
i dont have to feel guilty for those time. just do everything to avoid it...
but it seems history repeat itself..and thats the real shame....


mankind is doom if it can't learn from it's mistake, doom to repeat them again and again.....

[Paradox]

But, if you are not COMPLETELY of Indian/Native decent...and you ARE mestizo (as I am) with some European influences....what do you think we should call ourselves then?

I already said that mestizo was the most accurate term, as it verifies that we have BOTH Native and European influences. "Hispanic" and "Latino" deny ANY Native influences as they are European in origin. Therefore, I would not have a problem being called a mestizo, because it confirms that I HAVE Native blood. As for my spiritual connections, I don't know how to explain it any better than I already have. Perhaps the blood from my three tribes has a stronger influence on me than the Spanish blood. I have no idea. All I know is that I feel STRONGER spiritual connections to my Native ancestors than my Spanish ones. This doesn't mean I don't like Spanish people. I don't have a problem with anyone because of racial or ethnic, or religious issues. My problem is that the REAL racists try to deny us our Native connections through the use of labels like "Hispanic" and "Latino," as if our Native ancestors were in some way inferior and not worth mentioning. I don't have a problem with the word mestizo, and as I stated before, feel it is the ONLY accurate term to describe us people who have Native and European blood.


Yes, I do see myself as Mestizo because I am a mixture of those bastard colonialists and native central americans

Bastard colonialists? Doesn't sound like your opinion is any better than mine. Yes, they raped our Native ancestors. Yes, they came close to destroying the ways of our Native ancestors. Yes, they forced their language, traditions, and religion on our people. And yes, their blood is in us. But, if we use their language, traditions, and religion because we have their blood, shouldn't we also practice some of the ways of our Native ancestors as well? Their blood flows through us as well, remember? That is what I am saying. Only one side is being recognized, that of the conqueror. These "bastard colonialists" were horrible people, but they didn't represent the Spaniards as a whole. Therefore, I don't have a problem with the Spanish people, other than the RACIST ones who try to tell me I am White because our Native ancestors were raped, and our traditions destroyed. I am NOT Hispanic. I am NOT Latino. Those terms deny me my Native connections COMPLETELY. To describe my Mexican ancestory, MESTIZO is the ONLY term I would accept. And for my Canadian ancestory, NATIVE is the ONLY term I would accept, because my grandmother was full-blooded Cowichan Indian.

"THERE'S NO DIVERSITY BECAUSE WE'RE BURNING IN THE MELTING POT."
- IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE

[Paradox]

Respect there...this however makes me feel guilty of actually having Latino blood and no Indian blood

I thank you very much for your support, we need all the help we can get. But, there is no need to be ashamed of who or what you are. You are not responsible for the crimes they committed in the "new world." Those conquistadors and the other Europeans who looked down on my Native ancestors were horrible people, but they DID NOT represent the Spanish, English, or any other European ethnic group as a whole. You do not need to follow in their footsteps. And you have shown to me that you ARE NOT doing so, through your support for my cause. I appreciate that very much. Tlazohcamati ("thank you" in Aztec). NO PEOPLE should be ashamed of who they are. You being ashamed of your European ancestory is the same as my people being ashamed of their Native ancestory, and trying to cover it up by dying their hair blond or putting in blue contact lenses. We need to embrace ALL of our cultural traditions, not just those of the conqueror.


It's sad to see that the media here (I live in Holland) show the Indians in Latin America (sorry for using that term) as nothing more than savages or kids who are addicted to drugs. Eventhough the Indian cultures (Mayas, Azteks and Incas to name the mostly known) were in my opinion superior to the European cultures of that time (and even to the European cultures now).

Sad, but it doesn't surprize me to hear that Natives are portrayed that way. But, by you recognizing that this is wrong, you are showing me that you are NOTHING LIKE those people who portray the Natives that way. Those racist people who do so, DO NOT represent Europeans as a whole. You have a good heart, and you have NOTHING to be ashamed of.

MITAKUYE OYASIN- ALL MY RELATIONS.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!!!!!

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 12:00 AM

HEY! Don't make fun of janitors! I have to do janitorial work at the resturaunt I work at, even though I'm a busser. I don't look down on janitors, or people with jobs people consider unappealing. They're hard workers. Of couse, I know you didn't mean to knock them down, you were only using them as an example. I don't think of it as "cool" to have the blood of a chief- I think of it as a sign of my duty to help my people achieve justice and equality. I don't care for anything that is considered "cool" or "trendy." That's just another form of brainwashing and makes people materialistic and individualistic. I don't care for such things.


Honestly, and you may not want to hear this, all that "spiritual connection" stuff you are feeling is just in your head.

That is an opinion. I cannot convince you that there IS a Creator, and you can't convince me that there ISN'T one. To me those spiritual connections are true. I didn't believe in God earlier in my life. And to tell the truth, when I was younger, I didn't even care that I was Indian. Nobody told me about my culture, my people's history, or anything like that. I just "woke up" one day. All of a sudden, I had this quest to learn as much as I could about my Native cultures, though I haven't found much about my specific tribes. The only way I can describe it is as a spiritual awakening. I realized that I WAS INDIAN, heart and soul.


What I'm not cool with is when spirituality becomes religion.

I agree that religion can have a negitive effect on society. Take for example the Christian preachers and the Islamic fundamentalists. The Christian leaders say the Bible is the only way, that all other view points, including those of Native people, are wrong. And Islamic fundamentalists have the same opinion, only they're defending Islam. What my people believed in was a spiritual bond with the Creator and everything He created. MITAKUYE OYASIN means "all my relations." This refers to the fact that all land and life, plants, animals, and people, are interrelated. We are all one. Whatever happens to one part affects the rest. My people did not see themselves as superior to the Europeans- the Europeans saw themselves as superior to us. And that's how we ended up where we are today. I will fight to help my Native people. I will fight to help ALL poor and exploited people. But, I will do so knowing in my HEART as well as my mind, that I am an Indian. An Indian who does occasional janitorial work, and there's nothing wrong with that. :D
I wasn't making fun of janitors, I've worked as one in the past also. My point is that it's a lot more romantic for you to talk about the blood of a chief running through your veins. Why a chief and not a janitor?

I never said that I didn't believe there is a higher power, what I am saying is that spirituality starts becoming religion when you "know" things because of your "spiritual connection."

I notice again that you use the term "my people" and speak of the things that were "done to us" as if you were there. I don't want to make assumptions, but I suspect that this cultural identity you are trying to put forth for yourself is all based on the fact that you happen to share some genes with indegenous people from the past. What connection do you have to them today?

This kind of nolstalgic nationalism can make you feel good about yourself, but we all must move beyond it.

[Paradox]

I notice again that you use the term "my people" and speak of the things that were "done to us" as if you were there. I don't want to make assumptions, but I suspect that this cultural identity you are trying to put forth for yourself is all based on the fact that you happen to share some genes with indegenous people from the past. What connection do you have to them today?

My father has written the Indian Affairs office in Canada requesting federal recognition of his Indigenous blood (he included my brother and I in his request). His mother, my grandmother, was full-blooded and had this recognition with the tribe. Now, personally, I don't care what the feds in Canada decide, because I know I have that Indigenous ancestory. And I don't want their handouts either, because that's not going to improve the conditions of the Native population. As far as connections to Native peoples right now, I only know a couple here in Texas. I have some Native friends back in California, who I see when I visit my father. I know this doesn't sound like much of a connection, but these are the only people I know of as of right now, who recognize their Indigenous ancestory. And my plans for the future revolve around improving the living conditions of Natives here in the u.$. or possibly in Mexico. I am studying to become a doctor (though right now I'm still taking my basics) and I hope to move on a reservation to help with the poor conditions that Native peoples live in.


This kind of nolstalgic nationalism can make you feel good about yourself, but we all must move beyond it.

Nostalgic? I don't believe I'm being nostalgic. Native peoples have been fighting for justice and dignity for more than 500 years. If Natives had justice, equality, and dignity today, then it would be nostalgic to keep going back to those past struggles. But, it's obvious that Natives have none of these things. Many reservations are in bad condition; traditionalists, such as those of the Hopi, are persecuted; schools are in bad shape; healthcare is horrible; land is still being taken; columbus day is federally recognized, and from here to South "amerika," Natives continue to be some of the poorest, if not the poorest citizens. My use of the past crimes of the European conquerors is to show in a historical context, the struggle Indigenous people went through and continue to go through, even now, more than 500 years later.


I wasn't making fun of janitors, I've worked as one in the past also. My point is that it's a lot more romantic for you to talk about the blood of a chief running through your veins. Why a chief and not a janitor?

The reference to "the blood of a chief flowing through my veins," is because one of my ancestors was a chief. To the best of my knowledge, none of my ancestors were janitors. They had other hard jobs, such as cotton picking, but I don't think there were any janitors. But, seeing that I myself have been a janitor of sorts, I'll make sure to tell my future kids they have the blood of a janitor flowing through their veins. And there isn't anything wrong with that. :D

MITAKUYE OYASIN- ALL MY RELATIONS

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!!!!!

PEACE.

[EneME]

I already said that mestizo was the most accurate term, as it verifies that we have BOTH Native and European influences. "Hispanic" and "Latino" deny ANY Native influences as they are European in origin. Therefore, I would not have a problem being called a mestizo, because it confirms that I HAVE Native blood.
Ah okay, I wasn't interrogating you on your beliefs or anything...just asking you a simple question so I could understand where you are coming from...


Bastard colonialists? Doesn't sound like your opinion is any better than mine. Yes, they raped our Native ancestors.
Of course my opinion is not any better than yours! lol I have never defended nor condoned what they did to my native ancestors. I'm very proud of my Native ancestry, but I recognize the contributions both ethnicities have paid to making me who I am today.


But, if we use their language, traditions, and religion because we have their blood, shouldn't we also practice some of the ways of our Native ancestors as well? Their blood flows through us as well, remember?
We DO still practice some of the ways of our Native ancestors as well as some of the ways of our Spanish ancestors...that is what makes us mestizo/a. There were many many different cultures of indigenous people in all of Latin America, and thats what makes someone from Central America different from someone in South America. For example, my two best friends are from Mexico and Peru, and although all three of us speak Spanish, we all speak COMPLETELY different dialects. We end up talking in circles, its actually pretty funny...that we end up just speaking in English. Not only is our speech different, but we learn from eachothers cultures, traditions, and foods.....and that difference is that Native ancestry that we each carry. We are each VERY proud of that...


To describe my Mexican ancestory, MESTIZO is the ONLY term I would accept. And for my Canadian ancestory, NATIVE is the ONLY term I would accept, because my grandmother was full-blooded Cowichan Indian.

Well no wonder you don't like the term "Latin," because you aren't simply Latin American. Maybe because of that Canadian ancestry...you don't want to use a term that would shun either side of you. I understand that it is more complex for you...than it is for me. Since I, for one, am from Latin America so it doesn't bother me to be called "Latin."

[Paradox]

Ah okay, I wasn't interrogating you on your beliefs or anything...just asking you a simple question so I could understand where you are coming from...

Sorry if I "sounded" irritated. I did not mean to come off that way. I just wanted to make it clear where I stood.


Of course my opinion is not any better than yours!

Ha ha ha! Nice to see we can put some humor into this discussion! :lol:


We DO still practice some of the ways of our Native ancestors as well as some of the ways of our Spanish ancestors...that is what makes us mestizo/a.

I guess that it's just the people I talk to who don't show any interest in their Native ancestory. Only a couple of them even know that Mexicans have Native as well as Spanish ancestory. Perhaps I should lecture them on that...


Well no wonder you don't like the term "Latin," because you aren't simply Latin American. Maybe because of that Canadian ancestry...you don't want to use a term that would shun either side of you. I understand that it is more complex for you...than it is for me. Since I, for one, am from Latin America so it doesn't bother me to be called "Latin."

Yes, I suppose that is the major factor in my opinions and feelings on this subject. But, I think I would feel the same way, even if I didn't have that Canadian Indigenous blood in me. I still wouldn't like being labeled with terms that deny me my Indigenous connections. In any case, I'm glad to see we finally understand each other. And I respect your opinion. :D

MITAKUYE OYASIN- ALL MY RELATIONS

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!!!!!

PEACE.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 04:37 AM
Latina women are really commonly trying to change themselves by dying their hair lighter, straightening it, and putting contacts in...and I think this is accepting the thought that being more european is "better" and being native is "wrong." The latin community HAS GOT TO change that mentality, and we've got to teach young girls that they're beautiful just as they are. I, myself, fell victim to that as a teenager but I grew up and realized that I'm proud to be Salvadoran with my kinky-ass hair....and being myself is the best form of resistance I've used againt Imperialism. ;)

Eneme this is a wonderful and truthful point and I am glad you posted it.

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 01:51 AM

I thank you very much for your support, we need all the help we can get. But, there is no need to be ashamed of who or what you are. You are not responsible for the crimes they committed in the "new world." Those conquistadors and the other Europeans who looked down on my Native ancestors were horrible people, but they DID NOT represent the Spanish, English, or any other European ethnic group as a whole. You do not need to follow in their footsteps. And you have shown to me that you ARE NOT doing so, through your support for my cause. I appreciate that very much. Tlazohcamati ("thank you" in Aztec). NO PEOPLE should be ashamed of who they are. You being ashamed of your European ancestory is the same as my people being ashamed of their Native ancestory, and trying to cover it up by dying their hair blond or putting in blue contact lenses. We need to embrace ALL of our cultural traditions, not just those of the conqueror.



Sad, but it doesn't surprize me to hear that Natives are portrayed that way. But, by you recognizing that this is wrong, you are showing me that you are NOTHING LIKE those people who portray the Natives that way. Those racist people who do so, DO NOT represent Europeans as a whole. You have a good heart, and you have NOTHING to be ashamed of.

MITAKUYE OYASIN- ALL MY RELATIONS.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!!!!!
Well you make a point...but I still feel like Im part of a group of people who are responsible for so much death and destruction...

The thing is...I've been to Peru and seen how the Incas lived, in Holland most people dont see it, all they see of the Latin American continent are favelas, naked indians in the jungles and rants on how evil Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez are...shame though.

[DaCuBaN]

I really can't even begin to understand why anyone would care one way or the other about their origins. My family tree was traced back (by an aunt of mine) and it's tracks lost in many places, such as Andalucia, Fife, Yorkshire, Rheinland, and quite probably even more diverse in those places where the geneology was lost - in short, I like so many of you am a mongrel and proud! Howver, this means I have the blood of two of the most imperialist nations - two of the most god fearing nations, I might add - flowing through my veins.

Does this make any difference to who I am? Do I even care? Of course not. You are what you do in this life, not what your geneology dictates. I don't understand why anyone would care to identify in this fashion, and I don't understand why anyone gets bothered when an idiot misrepresents them as something they are not...

Another thing, if amongst the left it is accepted that we are more divided by class than nationality (presumably then racial origins), then why is this even being discussed? This is nothing but a distraction from the real issue at hand, and in all honesty it angers me to see time wasted on such discussions.

I understand this may seema little insensitive, but it's my thought on the matter - better out and attacked, than in and festering, right? ;)