Is here anybody prepared to Die for his ideals? ? ? - Is her

[anarhosocijalist]

Talking and discussion are good, but is here anybody doing anything realy change the world to better, or are we all pussys in here. Socialism is all about theory and PRACTISE. It is difference between us comformist cappies, we are not scared to die, we dont have God and we know that human life doesn worth a shit. But if you do something then you can give yours life some sence and value..

So is here anybody ready do something and even DIE FOR HIS IDEALS ? ? ?

[oconner]

I think I would be prepared to die for my beliefs.
However, I've never been properly faced with death so it's not cetain. Until then I can just belive that I would.

[Naive]

When people ask that question, I always have to think of that passage in the Catcher in the Rye. I don‘t have the exact quote here, but doesn’t Holdens teacher tell him something along the lines of: “The immature man wants to die for his cause, the mature man wants to live for it.”
While I have a lot of respect for people who have become martyrs for their cause, I have to be honest with myself and admit that I don’t think I could go that far. I’d like to think that alive and contributing in whichever way I can, I’d be a valuable asset as well.

Some people seem to think its something quite “romantic” to give your life for what you believe. I watched a documentary on young communists in Turkey. They’re party is outlawed by the Turkish state and they’re persecuted, thrown in jail and mistreated. They used to have communal jails, in which they could organise, support each other and basically strengthen their connections. Jail reforms have put an end to this and in protest and to draw attention to their cause a lot of them have gone on hunger strikes and have starved themselves to death. And their supporters on the outside have done the same. The documentary showed the suffering of those on the hunger strikes, but also what their families and friends were going through, watching their loved ones kill themselves for their believes. They interviewed a father, who lost both his daughters, because they starved themselves to death out of solidarity for their comrades in prison. He’s lost so much, but he’s now gotten involved with the struggle as well, by writing a book about his daughters and others who’ve died. You have to take your hat off to him for struggling on and I don’t think his contributions are worth less because he isn’t willing to give his own life.

Hope that wasn’t too much of a ramble....

[Borincano]

In my opinion, I agree with Naïve that your ideals are more beneficial to the world living then you dying for it. Actually there could be more support for those causes if the people see that one have died for it, but anyway, I think that I would die for the cause of Puerto Rican independence.

I know that is so easy to write or say, because I have never been faced with that dilemma, but I think I would be able to if I was tortured or whatever. I don't think I'm willing to kill for it, because I don't want to hurt any human beingswho have a mother like I do. Still, it's easier to write or say than actually do.

(Edited by Borincano at 8:48 pm on May 29, 2002)

[Domino]

Well, I rather live, but I don't find myself on that situation, and just like Borincano said, it's easy to write it. It's so different when you are in the situation, but, at least right now... yes, I would die for an ideal.

[Sasafrás]

Well, I don't know about all that. I don't think that one is a "pussy" simply because they would not choose to die for their ideals. I also disagree with the idea that human life is worthless ('not worth a shit'). That's a terrible thing to say. You live. Is your life worthless? If human life isn't worth a shit, then how can we even give it sense and value anyway by dying? It doesn't make any sense. We can't make our lives valuable by being ready to lose them (simply because of political ideals). I agree with Naive, Borincano, and tetelives. It is better to have life and spend it doing what you can to help society rather than lose your life early thus causing there to be one less person who wants to make a change and bring on reform.

I don't know if I'd be willing to die for my 'beliefs' because I've never faced death and I don't know what it's like.

[shunt]

http://prohosters.com/pearl/

[Maaja]

I think I would definitely be more happy if I died for my ideas than by living and knowing that I haven't done anything.

[BOZG]

Like everyone I'd prefer to live for my beliefs but if the worst comes to worst I'd die for them.


If you're not willing to die for your freedom, you should take the word out of your vocabulary

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from La Rainbeaux on 4:45 am on May 30, 2002
I also disagree with the idea that human life is worthless ('not worth a shit'). That's a terrible thing to say.

Well I must be a terrible person then. I would be willing to die if I was sure that my death would benefit mankind, but I could never be sure of that, so in effect, no. However, if it came to a war, I would willingly die serving a just (not blanket commies) cause.

[Angie]

I would prefer to remain living, as clearly I could do more. However, if there were no other option than death, then I would not consider that I had somehow failed, and so yes, I would be emotionally prepared to die for my beliefs, knowing that I would continue fighting the whole way. In fact, I personally feel that once you're resolved to the idea that you're going to die regardless of what you do, I think it makes you a much braver person - more willing to take risks, because the eventual outcome will be the same. There's no reason why you shouldn't stop fighting just because you're about to die.

[Josip Broz Tito]

Quote: from Maaja on 6:49 am on May 30, 2002
I think I would definitely be more happy if I died for my ideas than by living and knowing that I haven't done anything.


Maaja, you are reading my thoughts.

[RedRevolutionary87]

i would gladly die if i knew my death would help the working class.

[revolutionary spirit]

i think it's impossible to know weather or not you would lay down your life or not.You might be someone who wants to die for socialism so badly you go to every major anti-capitalist demostration in this world and show the cops in the host country pictures of you fucking their wives and you might still live.There is the guy who doesn't want to die for socialism but goes to one shitty demo and a brick falls on his head or something.I equal a man who died for socialism along with someone who has been an activist all his life and died of old age.Like i would equal the spirit of che guevara and let's say tony cliff in the same way.Really dying just makes good propaganda for your cause and can act as a rally call.

[artfuldodger]

here is another question, how many of you would kill for your ideals?
I would not...
although I really admire Che, I don't think I could do the things he did.

[peaccenicked]

from Hamlet by shakespeare.
"Ham. To be, or not to be? that is the question.--
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind, to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune;
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?--To die,--to sleep--
No more; and by a sleep, to say, we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to; 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die----to sleep----
To sleep? perchance, to dream. Ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of Death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect,
That makes Calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pang of despis'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes;
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardles bear,
To groan and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
That undiscover'd country, from whose bourne
No traveller returns, puzzles the will;
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought;
And enterprises of great pith and moment,
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action-----Soft you, now!"

[hello]

if i was given the choice between die or change my beleifs, i would die...

[CheGuevara]

I can and would all too gladly kill for my ideals.

[Field Marshal]

that's fine I guess. But do you only justify your killings (if you do), or will your justify the killings of others because of their beliefs. Hitler killed because of his beliefs. The Islamic Jihad kill, Taliban kill, Pol Pot killed, and millions of others have killed because they would kill for their ideals. You want to be put in that catagory?

[CheGuevara]

If you're saying will I kill people based on their thoughts/beliefs, I'd say no in most cases. I.E. I'm not going to round up every member of the Republican Party and shoot them. Would I kill people based on their actions? Yes.

[Fires of History]

Being willing to die for your ideals and also ready to kill for them is actually the same question. If you're ready to kill, you must be ready to die as well.

As for me, the answer is yes. I would rather die fighting my oppressors than live under their reign. Although I would rather bury the bourgeoisie and then die knowing my deed was finished. This damn apathetic world! Happy slaves! But maybe it has to get worse before it will get better. Revolution is only a matter of time, and when the U$ finally weakens and crumbles- and isn't able to finance the suppression of guerrillas around the world- then things will get worse, and then, finally, better. I hope I'm around then to put the cap in capie.

[Zippy]

Quote: from Field Marshal on 6:33 am on May 31, 2002
Hitler killed because of his beliefs. [...] You want to be put in that catagory?
My Grandad joined the Army in 1943 so he could fight facism, he was willing to kill for his beleifs. Does that stand him along the sides of Hitler and Pol-Pot?; not in the slightest.

As for me dying for my beleifs, i beleive Metallica say it best - "every man will lay down his life for democracy." :)

Zippy.

[suffianr]

Aw-shucks, I'd die for the girl I'm currently so in love with (she's my junior at college)...but would that count as an ideal worth dying for, rather than dying in a war in a far-away country that doesn't even have refridgerator or bottled mineral water, because they are a threat against freedom (Yes, I'm referring to Afghanistan)...I'd be the closest thing to a draft-dodger if there were ever any, but I'd also die for handicapped little Palestinian children, malnourished East Timor refugees or all the Navahos wasting away in those goddamn reservations like automatons living on wasted dreams because of the actions of a bunch of toffee-nosed bastard White Men who thought they were super fly and didn't give two shits about racial equity because those fucking"coloreds" were just slaves that you could drown off the coast of Jamiaca. Phew, that was a lungful!

[Cossack]

one man's martyrdom is another man's zealotry

[The Advent of Anarchy]

I'll fight for them, but I'll do my best to stay out of the casualty list.

[Red October]

one man's martyrdom is another man's zealotry

Quit necromancing crap from 6 years ago

[professorchaos]

Yeah, I'd do it. Not really that anti-death anyway.

[Red Equation]

No, you cannot tell whether or not it will make a difference, when you die, you won't know whether or not it will be futile or cause a major change, you can only do that when you are alive.

There are better ways to get attention besides dying.

[Vi~]

I would rather live for them.

[redSHARP]

shit happens, shit happens. i will try to stay alive, but that is the funny thing about conflicts, very few look to die. besides, you are more help alive then dead. human life should not be taken or thrown away (unless then try to take yours).

[black magick hustla]

Fuck self-martyrdom. Communism is the affirmation of the will to live; it is not some sort of worthless Christian monstruosity painted in red. I will embrace Death when life becomes unbearable - but I won't just "die" for ideas.

[RedAnarchist]

Uber-Necromancing!

[Comrade Krell]

Agreed, the whole 'die for your beliefs' is Christian-styled meta-psychical trash, if you die that accomplishes nothing for your beliefs, if you live for them and for spreading them then you like are likely to accomplish. Remember, Marxism is about material reality.

[Vlad tdf]

Sometimes i think about dying for my ideals is so heroic but i would prefere to live and enjoy the victory! But if i lose i think that i would prefere dying or living and start fighting again and again till the end ! but i didn't face the death iet so i don't know how is it like dying(even for my ideals)

[PigmerikanMao]

If you're saying will I kill people based on their thoughts/beliefs, I'd say no in most cases. *I.E. I'm not going to round up every member of the Republican Party and shoot them. *Would I kill people based on their actions? *Yes. *
Said perfectly if I do say so myself. :p

[piet11111]

i would do my best to avoid dying but i would kill for my ideals.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Most of my "ideals" include people not dying for ideals or anything of the sort. Many leftists here say/quote things like "I'd rather die on my feet that live on my knees". Sure, that sounds nice, excepting because dying is useless. This is the kind of attitudes that make revolutionary politics exist only as "fringe groups", since most people, for example, prefer to pay for food than to starve for free.

I don't know where this crappy "look at me and how I'm a martyr and a hero and I die for The Cause although it doesn't benefit me since I'm dying anyway" attitude came from, but it surely came from a nasty place, probably old-fashioned christian values (perhaps "christianity as seen from a believer who thinks capitalism promotes selfishness and evil individualism")...or fascism. Ideas and systems should serve humans, not the other way round. I've been saying this for quite some time.

[cappin]

Only if I'm not careful enough...

the object, here, is to avoid death if possible. I don't plan on walking in front of a bus.

[Destroy capitalism]

I have had to bury my best comrade Dominic Mc Glinchey and as far as I can tell he died meaninglessly.
I would happily have taken the bullets in his place: he was a more effective leader than I can be.
I would happily have killed to defend him or any of my comrades.
we were fighting for a socialist 32 county republic.
which means we were fighting the Freestate government, the British government, the US government, the loyalists, the unionists.
The Irish masses on both sides of the border were not and still are not ready to accept a socialist revolution or to support it in any way. The deaths of the socialist IRA and INLA members have been utterly in vain.
We'd all be better off had they lived to speak for their politics, to organize, to lead, to write, to inspire.To prevent Sinn Fein abandoning socialism as a tenet as they are currently debating.
Dying for it and killing for it is currently POINTLESS in Europe.What would you like me to do, buy some nuclear weapons or what? How am I going to defeat the capitalist armies of Europe, Nato?The intelligence agencies?
We need to be a million times cleverer than that. Each comrade must consider him/her/other self as a cell and act on their own initiative in terms of recruiting and infiltration. All communication of plans must cease. there is no busy street where your conversation cannot be monitored so do not converse of security matters.
Take the long view comrades, we must all live and we must expand our numbers.
Everyone here is known to the enemy. Make sure some of your recruits are not.
Give them a blast of inspiration and set them loose to 'sleep' as apparently apolitical.
It's in the eyes, it's unmistakeable.you will know when you meet a potential recruit, you must trust your own judgement.
Should the time for killing and dying come in my lifetime I won't be found to have changed in my willingness.
But next time i'll be damn sure it's not in vain.

[Jeraldi]

While I would never participate in an action if there is no chance of getting out alive. However, I still intend to participate in the revolution and, as in all conflicts, there is always a chance of death. If following my chosen path ends in an early death so be it, but I will not seek out death for any reason.

[joe_the_red]

Yes. There are too many people in this world without, they need help, and if my one life can make the lives of 100s, 1000s, millions... better, than it is for the best. Of course, I'm not suicidal or needlessly risking my life, but I believe in Marxism, and I know it can help this world. -Joe

[BIG BROTHER]

like Zapata once said, "is better to die standing up, than to live on your knees"

of course this is easy to say, harder to do.

[cyu]

When conditions are only moderately bad, there would be a large percentage of the population who are willing to tolerate it.

As conditions get worse, a growing number of people will start to actively try to change it.

When conditions get absolutely intolerable, the number of people willing to die to change the system can get quite high. After all, if they'll be close to death anyway if the system doesn't change, they don't have much to lose.

You also have to weigh how helpful your death would be. If you're just setting yourself on fire in protest, that is next to useless. I really can't think of too many scenarios where you'll actually want to die instead of live on to further promote your cause... maybe you're considering going on a suicide mission to take out some opposition politician (Note: I'm against political assassination by the way, but this is just for the sake of argument) - is one politician really worth it? Won't another politician from his party just rise to replace him?

Maybe the better question to ask is "are you willing to risk your life for your ideals"? Fighting a war, joining a rebellion, etc all risk your life. There's no guarantee that you'll live, but if you do live, you're much more likely to help further the goals you believe in than if you died.

[Colonello Buendia]

I would be willing to risk my life, and if I could help the cause more by giving my life than living on then I suspect I would die. e.g. if I was a pilot and had been hit by anti air guns or something I'd choose the biggest most important target and go flying into it rather than risk capture because I know I'm terrible at withholding information. so yes, I'd rather live on but if I had to I would sacrifice my life.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

I'd make some other poor bastard die for his.

[shorelinetrance]

i'd kill and die for mine, because i've read enough philosophy to realize that living without any inherent meaning is boring, i'd rather go down in a hail of gunfire and die for something, then die of old age accomplishing nothing.

a reason for living is also an excellent reason for dying.

[Luís Henrique]

Our cause is not asking for our lives.

Luís Henrique

[shorelinetrance]

Our cause is not asking for our lives.

Luís Henrique

and you wonder why the left has been stagnating since god knows when.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Luís Henrique]

and you wonder why the left has been stagnating since god knows when.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

For the lack of a culture of human sacrifice?

Hardly.

Luís Henrique

[Entrails Konfetti]

I'd risk papercuts from pamphlets!
Yee-ouch!

Also, I'd risk staying later during seizure of work-place power, just so stuff gets done.
Unlike now, where I don't really like staying later, and I try not to.


Our cause is not asking for our lives.
Could you clarify that?

[Comrade Rage]

I'm willing to die for my beliefs.

[joe_the_red]

It is true that our cause is not asking for our lives. Not every job within the revolution is a major life-risk. If it was assumed that everyone in the cause would likely die, this question would not exist. I believe, if you'll excuse me to assume, that what this question is asking, is that if you had to, if the only way to achieve our objectives was life-threatening, and in fact more likely than not to cause us to die, would you still be doing it? If we needed to take up arms (which, in my opinion, is inevitable), would you do that, to help bring socialism/communism to the world, so that all might have equal and fair chances at happiness and success? My answer is a very quick, unhesitating yes, because this world has suffered under capitalist-fascist-imperialism and zionism for far too long. A change is needed, or the capitalists will destroy this world in pursuit of more money. But, others may not believe that there is a need for armed resistance, or they might feel that there are jobs needing to be done that do not require risking one's life, or they may be protestors and boycotters and feel that peaceful protest is their way of being a revolutionary, but in the modern world, these capitalists do not care about killing peaceful protestors. Remember the university students during the Vietnam War? Always remember these things. Now, I believe the question is, if you had to, would you still continue the revolution if you knew there was a good chance that it would cost your life? -Joe

[Entrails Konfetti]

Yes, I'd shoot myself in the head for the Communist cause!

I'd also be willing to take out my intestines and jump rope with em to demonstrate workers strength!

[Entrails Konfetti]

Now what do you say to that, you Fascist Bully-boy?!

[Hyacinth]

Bertrand Russell has an amusing, and apt, quote on this very subject: “I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.”

[Hyacinth]

Also, as an addendum: it seems quite silly to even as this question, after all, most people who die for their beliefs don’t exactly have much of a choice in the matter. The better question is (and what I think the original question is really asking) “are you willing to *fight* for your convictions?”, to put yourself in harm’s way for them?

[Luís Henrique]

I'd also be willing to take out my intestines and jump rope with em to demonstrate workers strength!

Obviously the capitalists would promptly give away the means of production, out of the sheer thought of it.

Luís Henrique

[Hit The North]

Bertrand Russell has an amusing, and apt, quote on this very subject: “I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.”

Yes, but he was a bourgeois dissembler and scab.


The better question is (and what I think the original question is really asking) “are you willing to *fight* for your convictions?”, to put yourself in harm’s way for them?

Well put.

[joe_the_red]

Just to verify things... who are you calling a Fascist Bully-Boy???

[Cymru]

Living and knowing that at least i tried is good enough for me

[black magick hustla]

and you wonder why the left has been stagnating since god knows when.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

go away to the church, i believe its a place more apt to you. christians always ask for human lives, to die for god.

[Comrade Krell]

and you wonder why the left has been stagnating since god knows when.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Please take you're Christian whinebaggery and romantic death fantasies elsewhere. I would rather live for my beliefs than die meaninglessly.

[cyu]

But, others may not believe that there is a need for armed resistance, or they might feel that there are jobs needing to be done that do not require risking one's life, or they may be protestors and boycotters and feel that peaceful protest is their way of being a revolutionary, but in the modern world, these capitalists do not care about killing peaceful protestors. Remember the university students during the Vietnam War? Always remember these things. Now, I believe the question is, if you had to, would you still continue the revolution if you knew there was a good chance that it would cost your life?


Even posting to this forum adds a little bit of risk to your life, since it may put you on some government watch-lists. The more successful you are politically, there's also a greater chance you may be assassinated.

Even armed resistance has to start with (relatively) peaceful activities. If it's just you and me against the whole system, the best we can hope for is just martyrdom. You'll need to convince as many people to join your side as possible. It will increase your chances of success. Interestingly, it will also lower the risk to your life (unless someone sees you as a threat and assassinates you before you become too successful).

Spreading your message itself also has risks. For example, you may organize the democratic community take-over of mass media outlets. When the capitalists send in their goons to protect their property "rights" - you do risk dying in the fighting to protect democratic control.

[Holden Caulfield]

i think that most ppl would say they would die for thier ideals but you can never know until you actually face such a prospect,

i would fight for mine but would not be keen to get my head kicked in by 3 nazi punks for instance,

it is all relative, and it is all subjective, i doubt any on here will have faced real danger for their beliefs and so no amount of moral judgements (etc) will give a true answer

[Entrails Konfetti]

go away to the church, i believe its a place more apt to you. christians always ask for human lives, to die for god.

You mean you wouldn't take out your spleen and eat it in the name of the proletariat?

Can I have your spleen then?


Just to verify things... who are you calling a Fascist Bully-Boy???

The state, the capitalists, Ronald Reagan, the clever trousers in the army, Wal-Mart! they think they can tell me to not take out my intestines and jump-rope with them, or shoot myself in the head-- they think they can stop me!? Bwahahaha Muhahammad, well they are wrong! I'd chainsaw my leg off and blugeon myself to death with it for the Communist Revolution!

Until the revolution, I've cut out my adrenal glands and I'm chewing on them, to keep me energized and sharp! I have hair-trigger precision!

[joe_the_red]

Thank you for clarifying. I had thought that perhaps you were calling me the fascist, I didn't know, so I had to ask. I know that it is easy to say and a bit more difficult to apply risking one's life for the cause... I think that there is an even more difficult question, though. I know that I have some friends that are yet undecided in their beliefs. I try to speak to them and persuade them, but they are too "comfortable" in their situations. They don't want to take part in anything at this time. What I would like to know... is what if friends that you've known for years, your entire lives even, were a part of the opposition... a physical opposition working for the capitalist-fascist-imperialists? Could you bring yourself to fight against and kill these people if necessary? Could you kill your friends, or your family members who were fighting for the opposing side? I guarantee that comrades have had to do such in the past. In the American Civil War, Spanish Civil War, the Irish Revolution, and any civil war, friends and family fought each other, even in the same battles. I want to know, could you do it? It is a difficult question, but I think it is worth addressing. I will begin by stating that I would do anything it takes to free this world from its oppressors... including the difficult choices, but I don't care to expand upon that. I don't mean to sidetrack from the original question posed on this thread, just anyone who cares to reply to this question in addition to the thread is free to, but is not required to, of course. -Joe

[Luís Henrique]

You mean you wouldn't take out your spleen and eat it in the name of the proletariat?

Yes, I think Entrails Konfetti addresses the correct issue through his jokes.

What is the point of saying "Yay, I am willing to die for the cause"?

It is just empty bragging; until we are confronting of our own, concrete, death, staring at the guns or the gallows, it is impossible to know how we will behave in the situation. We can hope we will keep our integrity; we cannot promise anything (and, from what I have seen and read, the more willing one is to talk about self-sacrifice, the less likely they are to fulfill such empty vows...)

Luís Henrique

[Entrails Konfetti]

What is the point of saying "Yay, I am willing to die for the cause"?

It is just empty bragging; until we are confronting of our own, concrete, death, staring at the guns or the gallows, it is impossible to know how we will behave in the situation. We can hope we will keep our integrity; we cannot promise anything

And I can only hope to find a chainsaw that works. I have this piece of shit plug-in electric chainsaw-- the damn chain keeps falling off!

But yeah, it is all empty bragging. Furthermore who knows what tasks one will be doing during a revolutionary situation, I could be doing something else besides firing a gun at the counter revolution, something that some people would think as minimal to the cause. This talk of dying for something is fool-hearty, we don't have room for heros. It's like Firefighting, all these former highschool jocks want to be Firefighters, and they don't realise the little recognition they would get, how hard it is, how dangerous it really is, and as it turns out with Firefighter school 3/4ths of the class drops out.

[cyu]

What I would like to know... is what if friends that you've known for years, your entire lives even, were a part of the opposition... a physical opposition working for the capitalist-fascist-imperialists? Could you bring yourself to fight against and kill these people if necessary? Could you kill your friends, or your family members who were fighting for the opposing side?


If one member of your family was about to kill another member of your family for no good reason, the obvious choice is to protect the victim. The same is true in a revolutionary situation. If trade unionists have assumed democratic over their companies, and there are members of your "friends" in paramilitary forces being sent in to kill the trade unionists, then the obvious choice would be to protect the trade unionists.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

I have unwavering support for the advancement of socio-economic democracy; each situation deserves its own interpretations, but there would be no better way to die than for my beliefs.

Other than through procreation. ;)

[shorelinetrance]

go away to the church, i believe its a place more apt to you. christians always ask for human lives, to die for god.

hey, i'm not talking about jihading for the cause, but believe it or not, revolution is around the corner, danger is and will be around every corner for revolutionaries, i'm not romantizcing about anything, danger is a reality during a revolution.

and i resent the church comment, i'm more of a christopher hitchens breed of atheist :D

[Luís Henrique]

and i resent the church comment, i'm more of a christopher hitchens breed of atheist :D

Yeah, and Christopher Hitchens is a religious atheist; someone who values his snobish atheism above everything, so much that he has gone to the far right just to be coherent with it...

So you are willing to die for the cause, but you are not willing to cooperate with religious people for the cause? Let me disbelieve that...

Luís Henrique

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

I thought that this quote in a user's signature expressed by thoughts exactly:
"In the name of a greater civilization, we curse those who for the sake of their ambitious dreams, brought about the massacre of so many young lives. No matter how brutal the crime, you will always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture." - Amadeo Bordiga

Glorification of violence typically comes from one of two people: those who have never participated in it and those whom it benefits.

And usually they are the same person.

[the-red-under-the-bed]

while there are deffinately a lot of really good people on this website who do allot of good mork, most people on this forum are "internet revolutionaries".

allot of people on rev left think that reading and getting a basic understanding of class society and socialism, makes you a marxist. to be a marxist means you need to be involved, be active, not just on an internet forum talking shit.

so i would say the majority of people on this list, who think that "joining the party" means going to a mates place for beer instead of getting organised and involved, would not die for their beliefs.

personally, i think that i would if the situation was dire enough, and i would achieve something worth while in death, but i really dont see what death ever really achieves, and i sure as all hell dont want to be in that situation, and i would do everything i could do to avoid it.

i mean, dead comrades dont march

[Kami]

I do not fear death, and if I must die I'd rather it were for a cause.
That said, I find living for my cause a much more appealing and useful concept.

Anyone else find it odd that the religious, confident as they are that life goes on after death, seem to fear it more than those who recognise their mortality?

[the-red-under-the-bed]

and also, i feel i ripped to much shit on comrades then, there are allot of people on hear that do a hell of a lot of good work, but some people on rev left, that sit in their nice comfortable homes in the first world and spend all day trying to discredit revolutions in the third wourld because it doesnt fit their ideological dogma. those type of people shit me

but to all the activists out there, youve got my undying love

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

and also, i feel i ripped to much shit on comrades then, there are allot of people on hear that do a hell of a lot of good work, but some people on rev left, that sit in their nice comfortable homes in the first world and spend all day trying to discredit revolutions in the third wourld because it doesnt fit their ideological dogma. those type of people shit me

but to all the activists out there, youve got my undying love

You live in Geelong?

Criticism of the actions of communists, of movements, past and present should actively be encouraged, regardless of one's location to those movements. We should not think that just because we do not live in a country we cannot criticise or debate what is occurring in that country. Or be put off from debating because 'we don't live there.' That is a horribly nationalist view.

There are reasons why we are internationalists.

[the-red-under-the-bed]

You live in Geelong?

Criticism of the actions of communists, of movements, past and present should actively be encouraged, regardless of one's location to those movements. We should not think that just because we do not live in a country we cannot criticise or debate what is occurring in that country. Or be put off from debating because 'we don't live there.' That is a horribly nationalist view.

There are reasons why we are internationalists.


yer i live in geelong, its a top spot. geelong trades hall is our little soviet, why do u live in geelong?

yes, im definately an internationalist, my critizism their was not so much at honest disscussion on international events, but more people who are over dogmatic, and expect every revolution to follow a very strict ridgid and unrealist plan.

Revolutions come in all sorts of forms, and while we should always be carefull on our interpretation of the worlds events, we always need to take into account the reality of differnt situations.

for example nepal. while i am a little concerned about the maoists, in particualr i dont think they are branching out to potentially friendly governments ie: vietnam, cuba, venezeula as much as they should, people on this site completely disregard the revolution for a range of reasons, like they gave up the armed struggle too early or they arent nationalising industry ect, which is completely obsurd and void from reality. their army had almost no heavy weapons needed for a susstained assault on cities, and they were able to come into the cities successfully anyway due to the peopels movement, and nepal is so backward there is no industry to nationalise.

again my issue is not with good activists, who understand and are activly involved in campaigns, but people who are not involved, and have only an academic and dogmatic understanding of marxism,

sorry guys, got a little off track

[the-red-under-the-bed]

sorry, quick correction, some people

again, lot of good activists here.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

yer i live in geelong, its a top spot. geelong trades hall is our little soviet, why do u live in geelong?

I don't.


yes, im definately an internationalist, my critizism their was not so much at honest disscussion on international events, but more people who are over dogmatic, and expect every revolution to follow a very strict ridgid and unrealist plan.

Revolutions come in all sorts of forms, and while we should always be carefull on our interpretation of the worlds events, we always need to take into account the reality of differnt situations.

for example nepal. while i am a little concerned about the maoists, in particualr i dont think they are branching out to potentially friendly governments ie: vietnam, cuba, venezeula as much as they should, people on this site completely disregard the revolution for a range of reasons, like they gave up the armed struggle too early or they arent nationalising industry ect, which is completely obsurd and void from reality. their army had almost no heavy weapons needed for a susstained assault on cities, and they were able to come into the cities successfully anyway due to the peopels movement, and nepal is so backward there is no industry to nationalise.

again my issue is not with good activists, who understand and are activly involved in campaigns, but people who are not involved, and have only an academic and dogmatic understanding of marxism,

sorry guys, got a little off track

Okay. :)

[the-red-under-the-bed]

I don't.
unlucky



Okay. :)
awesome

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

Whilst no communist, Chun Tae-il died for his ideas.


Chun Tae-il was a labor activist in the late 1960's who exposed the horrendous conditions at the sweatshops run at Seoul Peace Market. In organizing against such conditions, one was by association organizing against the oppressive government of Park Chung-hee. Michael Breen has noted when describing the shamanistic traditions underlying Korean culture that "The worst thing the living can do to someone they hate is commit suicide because of him." And in 1970, the 23 year-old Chun Tae-il followed this philosophy and set himself on fire from the flames of a burning book of Korean labor law, chanting slogans such as "Comply with labor law!" and "We are not machines!". This act solidified Chun as a rallying cry of protest against the South Korean regimes and policies of the 70's and 80's to the point where fire extinguishers became regular gear for Korean police at such protests.More here. (http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200509/200509070015.html)

Incidentally, the last words of his death were probably not 'Do not let my death be in vain.' Despite being on fire for over three minutes before being put out, he was conscious in hospital and did talk to his family about being hungry (he had not eaten for two days before his death).

[cyu]

Chun Tae-il followed this philosophy and set himself on fire from the flames of a burning book of Korean labor law


Yes, I'm betting capitalists are quaking in their boots, afraid that the day will come when all leftists set themselves on fire.

Seriously though, there may be certain situations in which actions like this might score a few points, but as far as I'm concerned, it usually pointless. In fact, I would probably more likely attribute his motivation to depression rather than true revolutionary spirit.

[ManyAntsDefeatSpiders]

Yes, I'm betting capitalists are quaking in their boots, afraid that the day will come when all leftists set themselves on fire.

Seriously though, there may be certain situations in which actions like this might score a few points, but as far as I'm concerned, it usually pointless. In fact, I would probably more likely attribute his motivation to depression rather than true revolutionary spirit.

I agree. It also should be noted that the Christian church exploited his Christianity to gain supporters...as did certain politicians.

But it did do quite a bit for the militant union movement, and hence the poor conditions of the female workers in the textile factories of which he fought against. The 'spark' that lit the flame so to speak...

Still, a poor price to pay. :(