The Bombing of Dresden.

[Reuben]

on the 14th of feburary 1945 the city of Dresden was bombed killing a minimum of 35000 people. The scene in the city was of absolute terror with temperatures soaring to 1800 faranhite. Moreover, Dresden was a great cultural center but was not a militray city. In fact the only military target - the baracks - and train station were left untouched.

I want to know what your opinions are on what happened, particularly those who advocate say suicide bombing.

What concerns me most is that the main reason for the allies doing what they did was internal propaganda, that the y were willing to sacrifice the lives of so many people simply to boost moral on the home front. This of course is just my opinion.

I also think that there were people who wanted to collectively punish the germans for what happened to london.

WHat is your opinion on what happened

[revolutionary spirit]

weren't the german army meant to of been retreating to the city and turn it into a fortress like the cities in the east against the soviets.So they bombed it to save allied lives-this is thier line anyway,but i know churchill said it was wrong.

It may of well of been a revenge attack for london and conventry but both sides did it,and i don't think the germans were crying for the brits in the blitz and the thebrits weren't crying for the germans in hamburg and berlin.Both sides suffered and both bad as each other in the idea of bombing civilans.There's no point dwelling on it,the germans had to be beat and if destroying dresden would quicken an allied victory then not much can be said against that but it is a terrible thing.I doubt the allied airmen got a kick out of it.

[Valkyrie]

I'm reading Vonnegut's Slaughter-House Five. A bio-anti-war satire of the bombing of Dresden.

[Menshevik]

Dresden was bombed because of the enormous tank maufacturing plants there. It wasnt a real military target, but the industrial center there was one of the largest in Germany. The Allies used "fire bombs" (like napalm) mostly which reaked havoc on the city. Unfortunately they chose no to distinguish between factories and apartment buildings and just carpet bombed the whole city. Thousands were burned to death. It's one of the worst war crimes of WWII.

[Josip Broz Tito]

I think it was a little bit of everything. A revenge for Coventry (maybe the main cause for Dresden, but not reason), a way to boos moral of Allied troops, a way to punish Germans (what can be characterised as a war crime against humanity). Also, it was a demonstration of power, since war was ending, maybe they (Allies) wanted to show to German people how strong they are and to destroy them psychologically.
Revolutionary Hero, you were right when you said that both (or let say all) sides committed atrocities and genocides, but my problem with this is that all sides were not treated equally in terms of responsibilities for war crimes in WWII. How many people who planned, ordered and committed war crimes in Dresden were indicted?
After the WWII it was all black and white. Blacks (or the bad guys) were Germans, Japanese, and Italians in some aspect and whites (the good guys) were allied troops. It is not that simple.

[Supermodel]

While the military targets may have been the main attraction, I still find it unforgiveable for any nation to knowingly target civilians as was clear in this case. My vote is that this was a violation of everthing the developed world stands for. You don't target civilians, you don't kill your prisoners.

[Edelweiss]

Yes, it was a terrible crime. But never forget: Germany began the war! Overall the Germans were the culprits not the victims of the war!

[Menshevik]

Malte, as a German yourself, how can you condemn every German civilian? It's unfortunate that not too many Germans resisted the Nazi take over, but does this make them as bad? The real criminals are the SS, the Gestapo, etc., not civilians.

[Edelweiss]

You got me wrong, I don't said that I'm condemning all German civilians. As said the Dresded bombing was a crime. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't forget that if Germany wouldn't have began the war the Dresden bombing didn't had happened. The war was supported by a majority of the Germans. and a majority of the troops, also the regular army. It's a fairytale that only the SS, Gestapo etc were the bad guys. Hitler asked the masses "Do you want total war?" and the masses euphoricly answered "YES". I guess the Dresen bombing was the total war they finally got.

[suffianr]

So, what's new? Dresden, My Lai, Cambodia, South Armagh, East Timor, Palestine, Belsen, Sri Lanka ect.

On May 13, 1969, racial violence erupted across Malaysia on a scale that was never seen before, in the short history of my nation. The Malays, Chinese and Indians, with others caught in the cross-fire, opened up to each other in ways that could be described as less than friendly neighbourly interest. Heads rolled, literally.

More than thirty years later, people still shiver at the mere mention of May 13th. My generation is spared of this unclean memory, yet most of us know that something like that can happen again, and again, and again. And then some.

The point is, genocide soesn't need to be "officialized" by declarations of war or violations of treaties. We are our worst enemy. Names and places fade away, sooner or later...

[Reuben]

Quote: from Malte on 5:02 pm on May 31, 2002
You got me wrong, I don't said that I'm condemning all German civilians. As said the Dresded bombing was a crime. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't forget that if Germany wouldn't have began the war the Dresden bombing didn't had happened. The war was supported by a majority of the Germans. and a majority of the troops, also the regular army. It's a fairytale that only the SS, Gestapo etc were the bad guys. Hitler asked the masses "Do you want total war?" and the masses euphoricly answered "YES". I guess the Dresen bombing was the total war they finally got.


Dresden was also the final war that many children and babies amongst the 35,000 finally got.. I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that more germans did now about what was happening . Although `I was quite suprised to read what you said about it.

However, collective punishment against whole ethnic or national groups is never legitimate.

(Edited by Reuben at 6:35 pm on May 31, 2002)

[Josip Broz Tito]

Not only it is not legitimate, but also it is very dangerous. No matter how cosmopolitan you are, when someone condemns your group (national, ethnic, religious or any other), you feel more close to that group. You feel attacked which makes you more eager to defend yourself by "not-liking" (or hating) the one who attacked you. That is the common way of creating nationalists.

[Reuben]

Yeah definitely. It is because of this that in ethnic minorities particularly many people feel they have to close ranks.

[Edelweiss]

I didn't wanted to express that all the Germans who died in Dresden actually deserved to die. Of course I'm strongly aginst those kind of collective punishment. Noone deserves to die. But we should never forget that the main guilt for the Dresden bombings is up to Hitler and all his obedient masses. Dreden just like Stalingrad is that were the German megalomania and race insanity ended.

[Reuben]

ah I understand now. Sorry for misinterpreting what you said.

[BOZG]

I think Tito is right that it was a combination of things that led to the destruction of Dresden.

I heard that 80% of the city was destroyed. Is that the right figure?

[Josip Broz Tito]

Yes, up to 80% of the city was destroyed.
And Malte, I am sorry, but I disagree with you. I'll try to explain. If I am a very bad person, and I go around and rape German children, does that fact gives you a reason to go around and rape Bosnian children? Of course not. I am sorry, this example is very extreme, but I had to use it in order to be understood. Maybe, in that case you will have a very good reason to kill me, but not to go down on my level and become like me.
One more example, this one is real. Japanese done some very bad things in WWII. Did that give a reason to Americans to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
I think, that Alliance, in case of Dresden, committed war crimes, and nothing can justify that crime. Not even the fact that Hitler started the war.


(Edited by Josip Broz Tito at 6:09 pm on June 1, 2002)

[honest intellectual]

30000 civilians killed in one night. There can be no justification for that.
And Malte, the German people were by no means responsible for the outbreak of war, the Nazi party was.

[Edelweiss]

Again, I didn't wanted to justify the Dreden bombings!

[Edelweiss]

And Malte, the German people were by no means responsible for the outbreak of war, the Nazi party was.

A large majority of the German people actively supported or tolerated Hitler and his war.

[deimos]

A large majority of the German people actively supported or tolerated Hitler and his war.
i think they supported it because they were "blind" of nazi propaganda.Sure, not only hitler is responsible for the war.

I think that every carpet bombing is criminal(aswell as mass destruction weapons).You can't be sure that you don't hit innoccent people.With smart bombs you can be ery sure that you don't kill innocent lifes.But in every war, civilians suffer.Equal if its fought with nukes or sticks and stones.

[maoist3]

I'm not interested in Dresden alone, but the overall
bombing of Germany. By the end of the war, it was
largely flattened, but the German population still
fought for Hitler to the bloody end.

This does a lot
to undercut the theory of the vast majority of people
calling themselves "Marxist" that there was a German
proletariat. It sure had the chance to rise up as World
War II ended, but it did not. Instead, Stalin had to lose
million of Russians to finish the war.

The German population was "labor aristocracy," bought-off, hardened in its imperialist mindset. The best thing
we can do now is learn the lessons from it. We can tell Amerikkkans today to prepare for big changes like the
collapse of Nazism was a big change. AT the same time,
those of us who think the Amerikkkans will learn so much faster than Nazis should get real. There will
have to be a whole stage of dictatorship of the proletariat to eliminate all the luxuries and privileges
that Amerikkkans extracted from the rest of the world,
before Amerikkkans will be able to build socialism
with the rest of the world. We can only hope that it won't be as bad as World War II, but it could be worse,
and it will surely be at least somewhat ugly.

Welcome to Dresden, 1945

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/dres/bw19.jpg

or Munich

http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/images/ruins.jpg

or Hagen

http://www.hco.hagen.de/ns-zeit/hagen/pix/...nnens441210.jpg (http://www.hco.hagen.de/ns-zeit/hagen/pix/innens441210.jpg)

or Sindelfing

http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/history/epo...1944_ruinen.jpg (http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/history/epoche6/pics/1944_ruinen.jpg)

Here's Berlin
http://www.chronik-berlin.de/images/photos/ruinen2.jpg

Bonn

http://www.emabonn.de/geschi/ruinen.jpg

Frankfurt

http://www.frankfurt-oder.de/stadt/histori...ie/stadt10g.jpg (http://www.frankfurt-oder.de/stadt/historie/stadt10g.jpg)

http://www.altfrankfurt.com/Spezial/Krieg/...est/Hoellgasse/ (http://www.altfrankfurt.com/Spezial/Krieg/Altstadt/DomWest/Hoellgasse/)
GoldeneWage/pic/GoldeneWageZerstoert.jpg

Hamburg

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/...ins_Hamburg.jpg (http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/Ruins_Hamburg.jpg)