Fairenheight 911

[Rasta Sapian]

Micheal Moore, America's favorite nitty gritty, funny and sometimes morally disturbing author has done it once again on the big screen.

Has he goine too far this time, with his bush bashing, and Republican slandering?

Or has he hit the nail on the head, and built a city of rock and roll?

you decide, comments are more than welcome. :)

[BOZG]

Nothing exceptional about this at all. Most of the information could be gathered from reading the newspapers though I do accept that it's far more radical in America than anywhere else in the world.

Moore has really exposed himself for the liberal scum that he is.

[Eddie999]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 03:28 PM
Moore has really exposed himself for the liberal scum that he is.
You know Marx wasted a lot of time insulting those who could have been his allies, don't make the same mistake. Moore is waking people up to the truth, don't vilify him for it.

[BOZG]

Marx polemised against his opponents for good reason, to prove their ideas wrong. You should take Lenin out of your avatar if you disagree with those tactics.

Moore is a liberal. Very simple. He does not oppose capitalism, he does seek to change the capitalist system. I will not keep my opinion to myself about a man like that.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Here, here, BOZG.
Didn't Moore go as far as criticizing the democratic party? And now he's condoning Kerry. Fuck that shit.

He's a liberal and socialists don't need to try to encorporate him into our movement.

[robob8706]

Moore isn't an ideal candidate for leftism, but it is a refreshing site to see an American leading the public towards more leftist ideals. So for that i respect him.

[Lardlad95]

Moore is a liberal. Very simple. He does not oppose capitalism, he does seek to change the capitalist system. I will not keep my opinion to myself about a man like that.

Oh shit...just because Michael Moore isn't a communist then I can't find his movies funny and he can never make a good point.

You have a very closed minded view of the world and the closed minded are obstacles to a socialist/communist society. Even those who don't support every last one of your views can be right and can help our cause. Perhaps you should step down from your communist high horse and realize that moore's films help expose alot of problems to teh average person.

Also who gives a fuck if he supports Kerry, he hates Bush more than he does Kerry, therefore he supports him. His priorities are just different form yours.

I think we all agree that Bush is very detrimental to the world as a whole. And we all just disagree on how to get rid of him. Personally I want to see Bush leave office, but not enough to sacrafice my beliefs. Moore on the other hand is in the lesser of two evils category. That doesn't make him a bad person it just means that he hates Bush enough to set his personal beliefs aside for one election.

Moore even said that "Bush sucks and Kerry sucks, thats why I'm voting for John kerry" he isn't the biggest kerry fan of all time, he just really hates bush.

[Poop]

F-9-11 sucked. Some of his previous movies, such as "Bowling for Columbine," and "Roger and Me," are actually thought-provoking. Farenheit 9-11 was just partisan crap telling people that Bush sucks. Moore actually thinks that there's a big difference between Bush and Kerry. He seems to believe that Kerry is opposed ot the war or something. He was never really that radical anyway, but now he's a full-blooded Democrat.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Oh shit...just because Michael Moore isn't a communist then I can't find his movies funny and he can never make a good point.

Oh no, he's damn funny. And you can think whatever you want of him, just know that he's no leftist.


You have a very closed minded view of the world and the closed minded are obstacles to a socialist/communist society. Even those who don't support every last one of your views can be right and can help our cause. Perhaps you should step down from your communist high horse and realize that moore's films help expose alot of problems to teh average person.

He's right about a few things, like the fact that Bush is a ass-hole. He many explain a lot of points, but his goals are to maintain capitalism. His overall agenda is not a leftist one.


Also who gives a fuck if he supports Kerry, he hates Bush more than he does Kerry, therefore he supports him. His priorities are just different form yours.

Yeah, they're very different. I want to abolish class society. He wants to make the president look silly so taht we can replace him for another ****.


I think we all agree that Bush is very detrimental to the world as a whole. And we all just disagree on how to get rid of him. Personally I want to see Bush leave office, but not enough to sacrafice my beliefs. Moore on the other hand is in the lesser of two evils category. That doesn't make him a bad person it just means that he hates Bush enough to set his personal beliefs aside for one election.

Then he's willing to settle for capitalism as well, apparently.
He doesn't see that Bush is not the true enemy, but a pawn of our class enemy.

[BOZG]

Oh shit...just because Michael Moore isn't a communist then I can't find his movies funny and he can never make a good point

Did you read my first post?



You have a very closed minded view of the world and the closed minded are obstacles to a socialist/communist society. Even those who don't support every last one of your views can be right and can help our cause.

Moore supports very little of my views. And those that he does support, he supports from a very different point of view.



Also who gives a fuck if he supports Kerry, he hates Bush more than he does Kerry, therefore he supports him. His priorities are just different form yours.

The logic of that is just overwhelming. I think I need a doctor. "I hate Hitler more than I hate Mussolini therefore I support Mussolini"

[Lardlad95]

Oh no, he's damn funny. And you can think whatever you want of him, just know that he's no leftist.


You may want to learn this now just to get it over with. There is someone in the world to the left of you which also means that compared to someone else you are conservative. IN general "leftist" is a relative term. He may not be a leftist to you but does that mean he is on the right. Are you under the assumption that only communists are leftists?


He's right about a few things, like the fact that Bush is a ass-hole. He many explain a lot of points, but his goals are to maintain capitalism. His overall agenda is not a leftist one.

Well then he isn't a very good capitalist if he believes that the richer americans should pay 70% in taxes and his stances on corprate america are hardly capitalist. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's a socialist, but if anything he's as anti capitalistic as you can be without straying into socialist economics.




Then he's willing to settle for capitalism as well, apparently.
He doesn't see that Bush is not the true enemy, but a pawn of our class enemy.

You are looking at the bigger picture, he is looking at whats going on right now. And what's going on right now is Bush is fucking things up for the average American. You can't think completely on a large scale all the time. Yes overthrowing capitalism is the most important thing to me...but that doesn't mean I can't focus on getting rid of a guy who's doing a lot of horrible things right now.

Perhaps you need to consider what ramifications Bush's actions are having right now. That is why people want him out of office. Did you not consider that maybe people aren't happy with what is going on at the moment? In the large scheme of things Kerry and Bush are similar. But I seriously doubt that in regards to current events the two will do the same things. I still don't like kerry, but you guys make it seem like the two would have handled the Iraq situation in the exact same way.

DO you honestly think that people are voting for kerry because they think he'll somehow overthrow capitalism? No, they are voting because Bush has really fucked things up and he needs to leave.

[Lardlad95]

Did you read my first post?

I was reffering to your attack on him for being a liberal, as if that is a qualifier for saying someone is wrong. The context in which you labeled him was what pissed me off.


Moore supports very little of my views. And those that he does support, he supports from a very different point of view.

So....does that mean that if you and him were for example at the same protest you would ask him to leave because you two don't belong to the same party? Who gives a fuck as long as he's for the same cause. *Note: I was not talking about the cause of overthrowing capitalism because I know someone is going to say "but we aren't for the same cause because I'm for overthrowing capitalism" I was simply reffering to specific issues like "abortion rights" or "stem cell research"




The logic of that is just overwhelming. I think I need a doctor. "I hate Hitler more than I hate Mussolini therefore I support Mussolini"

In order for that analogy to work Kerry would have to first do something that could be comparable to Bush's actions. But hey I don't like KErry either but the analogy isn't a good one.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 10:35 PM
F-9-11 sucked. Some of his previous movies, such as "Bowling for Columbine," and "Roger and Me," are actually thought-provoking. Farenheit 9-11 was just partisan crap telling people that Bush sucks. Moore actually thinks that there's a big difference between Bush and Kerry. He seems to believe that Kerry is opposed ot the war or something. He was never really that radical anyway, but now he's a full-blooded Democrat.
Heres something I don't think anyone here is getting. Moore doesn't think Kerry is the best candidate he simply thinks he's the best chance to get Bush out of office. IT isn't so much that Kerry is wonderful it's that Bush is so horrible. And when tlaking about the economy, the war in iraq, terrorism, Bush is horrible. Kerry might be also but he hasn't done anything to prove that his is horrible...yet. Moore still thinks Nader is the best candidate, but getting rid of Bush is worth it all to him.

[BOZG]

He's still supporting Kerry. Simple as that. I do not care for his intentions on the matter but for what reasoning he actually uses.

Kerry and Bush stand for capital, but for two different sections of the ruling class. Kerry might put forward a couple of more liberal positions, so what? When it comes down to it, he'll largely make the same rulings as Bush did.

Let me give you an example of your logic about going to protests and not caring who's there, once they go for the same cause. A few years back, there was a referendum here about the Nice Treaty. It was a ratification of EU law to allow "expansion of the EU". In reality it represented centralisation of power in the hands of the bigger nations and the opening of the exploitation of the Eastern Bloc markets. Very simple explanation but what the Treaty represents is not relevent here. The revolutionary left of this country opposed the Treaty and called for a No vote against it. I'm not sure as to what the Social-Democrats said. We opposed it on the grounds of what I outlined above. At the same, every racist, every fascist, every far-right fucker in this country also opposed the Nice Treaty because to them it represented a mass influx of refugees into Ireland. There were even people who weren't racists but were scared by the thought of even more over-stretching of the public services that voted against the Treaty. Had they come to protest should I have kept my mouth shut and held hands with them?

I know you'll say that this is an extreme case but I don't. I do not believe in happy little protests where everyone pats each others back and tell each other that they did good that day. This applies as much to the left as it does to anyone. To refuse to criticise someone because they stand for the same thing but approach it in a different matter or from a different manner is accepting reformism and popular frontism at its worse.

[(*]

Moore is part of the Liberal intelligentsia

[Eddie999]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 06:59 PM
He's a liberal and socialists don't need to try to encorporate him into our movement.
Our movement? Come on. Moore cant't go round saying he was a communist even if he was one. Most Americans are so brainwashed they wouldn't listen to anything a 'communist' said.

[commiecrusader]

Farenheit 9/11 wasn't thought provoking, and the facts weren't that obscure. But all you people *****ing about how 'Moore isn't a leftist, he's a liberal' and stuff like that are completely missing the point. The film isn't about political beliefs, or about turning people leftist. It's about demonstrating how corrupt Bush and his government are, how shit his policies are, and how shit he is at handling. The film is good because it gives the facts in a humourous way that the average joe will find easy to digest, and from that draw his own conclusions. It won't miraculously make everyone communist, but it sure will make them question the most powerful man in the world and his way of doing things.

[Anarchist Freedom]

who gives a shit !? :lol:

[Postteen]

I don't really care what Mr Moore is (he can't be a leftish for sure).At least I enjoyed his movie, because he presented real facts.I didn't know all of the things that he said, so the film was very informative for me.

[gaf]

when reality is stonger than fiction
did you read ray bradbury book from i think 1953
farenheit 451 a good way to understand bush and moore

[Latin America]

I saw the movie, I had to say the way he film it changes people perspectives about Bush! Bush Sucks!!!

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 04:39 AM
Farenheit 9/11 wasn't thought provoking, and the facts weren't that obscure. But all you people *****ing about how 'Moore isn't a leftist, he's a liberal' and stuff like that are completely missing the point. The film isn't about political beliefs, or about turning people leftist. It's about demonstrating how corrupt Bush and his government are, how shit his policies are, and how shit he is at handling. The film is good because it gives the facts in a humourous way that the average joe will find easy to digest, and from that draw his own conclusions. It won't miraculously make everyone communist, but it sure will make them question the most powerful man in the world and his way of doing things.
well said, cc, i agree.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by Latin [email protected] 16 2004, 01:42 PM
I saw the movie, I had to say the way he film it changes people perspectives about Bush! Bush Sucks!!!
:lol: I could have told you that before the movie came out. Ever since the incident with the Chinese pilot hitting the American Spy plane. What an ignorant fuck!

ps. I forgot to include another more obvious reason to hate him: he's a republican liar and hypocrite.

[Proud Mary!]

I completely agree with commiecrusader. Moore is simply unmasking different kinds of political malversations. It doesn't matter for what ideas he stands as far as he fights for truth and freedom and stands up for a simple ordinary people.
His art is engaged - it changes our perceptions of the world, it opens our eyes, it points the finger in a right direction... His form of expression is humorous and popular because it has to influence the giant masses, to wake them up from their sleeping slavery.

Moore can't do no harm to communism, he can only bring this world closer to our ideas.

[Valkyrie]

I Don't dare post this in comrade Lardlad's "My Night with Michael Moore" thread. :lol:

Apparently, UCLA had their own night with Michael Moore as part of his Slacker Tour, paying him $28,000 to speak from his usual fee of $40,000 per apperance. CSpan was filming it to broadcast later, which was where I watched it. Moore, as always, was very exuberant and jolly in his just finished the graveyard shift at the factory kind of way. He started his routine with some jokes ragging on the Presidential debate, which didn't go over so well. Pretty much dead silence from the audience. He asked how many were Republicans there. And one guy cheered. He continued on for a short while but it pretty much dived from there. Then C-span interrupted to announce that after 15 minutes, Moore asked them to remove the cameras citing ill health. :rolleyes:

CSpan, never one to be biased, finished off the hour with the author of the book "Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man" at his book signing at Barnes and Noble, where they talked about his narcissist complex.
:blink:

So, interesting night for Michael and me. :P

[cathatonix]

I enjoyed the film (but I think "Roger and Me" is a much better film) but of course it's just entertainment. But if it can open the eyes for a couple of people then it's OK. After that it's possible that they can go further, towards the truth. Realizing that this system got to go.

And... will the world be a better place with Kerry in the White House? Don't think so. GM and oil companies will rule the world anyway.

A much better film about WTC and other stuff is "The trues and lies of 9/11" by Mike Ruppert. Breathtaking. He's talking on a stage for over two hours and a lot of pieces drops down in their places.

[EneME]

I actually saw it this weekend, and I thought it was really good. It made me laugh, cry, and got me so pisst off...as it should have. Sure, most of the things that were said are things I already knew or that I'm not surprised about because I have been exposed to all this reality before being a leftist. But, I love that he put it out there...and ppl who have never experienced the truth were able to get a taste of what reality is. The ignorance in the U$ is incredible....so I'm glad that some ppl have opened their eyes, as painful as it is. This film also opens a platform of discussion, which is something that I never get a chance to do because of the stigma attached to being categorized as a "leftist"/"commie"/"socialist"...whatever. I was actually able to discuss my own experiences with war and the basis of my sentiments with one of my best friends for the first time in our decade long friendship, (b/c she is so non-political), because of this film. She began to understand a lot more where I stand....it was a nice breath of fresh air...

I dunno about you guys...but I feel suffocated most of the time because of the media blockage and stigma...maybe its just cuz I live in the U$...

[Inti]

I have just seen it and I have to say that I thought it was ok, but it wasnt really many news for me in that movie, and I think that perhaps because of that I didnt think that it was a great film but just ok.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

You may want to learn this now just to get it over with. There is someone in the world to the left of you which also means that compared to someone else you are conservative. IN general "leftist" is a relative term. He may not be a leftist to you but does that mean he is on the right. Are you under the assumption that only communists are leftists?

"Left" refers to socialism. Liberals are not leftists.


Well then he isn't a very good capitalist if he believes that the richer americans should pay 70% in taxes and his stances on corprate america are hardly capitalist. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's a socialist, but if anything he's as anti capitalistic as you can be without straying into socialist economics.

He may not be the best capitalist, because he wants the capitalist class to forfeit a little more of their profits to the goal of appeasing the oppressed. However, it doesn’t look like that’s the capitalists' most important issue as of late.

If he condones capitalism and fails to condone socialism, then he's pro-capitalist. Michael Moore is pro-capitalist.


You are looking at the bigger picture, he is looking at whats going on right now. And what's going on right now is Bush is fucking things up for the average American.

Not any more than Moore's alternative would.


Perhaps you need to consider what ramifications Bush's actions are having right now. That is why people want him out of office. Did you not consider that maybe people aren't happy with what is going on at the moment? In the large scheme of things Kerry and Bush are similar. But I seriously doubt that in regards to current events the two will do the same things. I still don't like kerry, but you guys make it seem like the two would have handled the Iraq situation in the exact same way.

It's likely.
They both would have received the same "intelligence" and both would have received pressure from the same people.


DO you honestly think that people are voting for kerry because they think he'll somehow overthrow capitalism? No, they are voting because Bush has really fucked things up and he needs to leave.

People are voting for Kerry because they’re under the impression that he's gonna improve things. Problem is, things cannot improve under capitalism. At all. What burdens Americans is capitalism. Kerry cannot reverse that "fuck up". Not that he even wants to.

[fridabella]

Well, I'm not completely sure if this has been said, but has anyone actually read his books? In Downsize This!, he made many, many socialist references (and I believe in Roger & Me as well). I read it before I had seen F-9/11 and thought much better of him.

He truly sounded like he was no sell-out, no money hungry "stupid white man". The book bashed big corporations that took away the livelyhood of so many communities, including his own (Flint, Michigan - one of the many impoverished hell holes in suburban middle-America).

What a damned shame, too. I mean, my Grandpa (a "card-carrying" Socialist ^_^) worked for Ford for so many years and was laid off-- just like that, like so many others. I thought that finally someone was sticking up for the good, honest people who were trampled over by corporate America like him.

But then I saw this new piece of garbage movie, and nearly gagged. It seems to me that he has become exactly what he always claimed to hate. I mean, $40,000 for a lecture?! He's a fucking pig (Not just physically anymore). He also has a lavish apartment in Manhattan. Fahrenheight was nothing but a desperately loud attempt to get ignorant America to love Moore and to do the Democrats' bidding. And for crissakes! He fucking accused that political party of being corrupt and just like the Republicans! I believe he called them both "Republicrats" in Downsize This!

Long story short, I have dwindling (or non-existant) respect for Michael Moore. So much for standing up for the little guy. He's just like the rest.

[FatFreeMilk]

F 9/11 did a great job at presenting evidence for why President Bush should be replaced next week, in case the American public hadn't known half the shit that was explained in the movie already. Who cares about what Michael Moore thinks. The movie wasn't about him. He wants some kind of change so that's why he made it. They should play this in the voting booths next week to remind our forgetfull citizens how much of an idiot the current jackass in office is, so they can replace him with another one.

[Motorcycle_diAries]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 10 2004, 03:25 PM
Or has he hit the nail on the head, and built a city of rock and roll?


he surely has hit the nail on the head, and built a city of rock and roll!! :)

[bolshevik butcher]

I liked it. It wasn't socialist, but it was well made. And anti-bush.

[October Revolution]

yeh iv'e heard it's supposed to be good and it's on TV tonight on channel 4 so im guna watch it. I just hope it's not to much like strong political propaganda because it'l give the cause a bad name.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I love Michael Moore's work.

Fahrenheit 9/11 was interesting, but not his best film. There is a certain style break from his earlier work, the typical Moore documentary. F911 was more serious, sadder. There was a mention earlier in the thread about Moore's perceived narcissism, but Moore seems to disappear for an hour or so.

There were problems, though. I felt there were far too many cheap shots. His stunts were less original, and much less effective. Somehow, through the brilliance of his filmmaking, he made a more than adequate film that reached and touched millions of people.

There is so much hate directed at him on this forum and elsewhere, but I believe he deserves so much credit. He is almost single-handedly challenging the right-wing propaganda machine in popular culture. He is imperfect, granted, but easily to the left of Jon Stewart, Al Franken, or Bill Maher.

I also want to touch on fridabella's comments. I agree that especially early works do have quasi-socialist logic to them. He does not finish the thought, but he is introducing a radically different philosophy to the dominant, liberal-capitalist framework.

I would not say he has necessarily sold out, though. Moore has become aware of his swelling audience, and is trying to be as subtle as possible. Sadly, I think he is omitting some very important leftist points, but I can appreciate him trying to keep the masses listening to him as long as possible. I think he is doing more good than harm.

[Intifada]

Good movie, as it exposes the true nature of the Bush Administration, especially for those who are less informed about this dickhead of a President.

PS. Brits can see it tonight on channel four, 9pm.

[BOZG]

Channel 4 is available outside of Great Britain by the way. :P

[FriedFrog]

I've just been watching it, and there was one thing that astounded me the most. It wasn't the business ties with Bush and the presidency, nor the case for war.

It is that on one night, 8 policemen were on duty in the WHOLE OF OREGON.

That is dreadful. Looking at maps I'm estimating Oregon isn't far short of the size of England, and for 8 people to keep law and order there due to 'budget cuts', it's beyond belief....

The whole thing is a mess. This film has opened my eyes even further.

[Intifada]

Channel 4 is available outside of Great Britain by the way.

Stop making a fool out of me!


I've just been watching it, and there was one thing that astounded me the most. It wasn't the business ties with Bush and the presidency, nor the case for war.

It is that on one night, 8 policemen were on duty in the WHOLE OF OREGON.


What astounds me the most, is that Bush was re-elected.

[bolshevik butcher]

I'd like to say I was surprised Bush got re-elected.

[October Revolution]

I watched it last night and it was good showed strongly how the Saudies have influecne in the US. For gods sake they have a trillion dollars invested there 7% of the economy i was very surprised by that :huh:

It got real crap for the last 30-45mins just going on about that mother and her son i didn't really see the point of it. Also that woman was a reel idiot she said something like "i was angry at all the protesters for the war becasue i thought why are they protesting against my son and the other soldiers but then i realised that they were really protesting against the cause of the war" (it went something like that) :lol: :lol: stupid

[celtopunk]

Originally posted by October [email protected] 28 2005, 01:53 PM
It got real crap for the last 30-45mins just going on about that mother and her son i didn't really see the point of it. Also that woman was a reel idiot she said something like "i was angry at all the protesters for the war becasue i thought why are they protesting against my son and the other soldiers but then i realised that they were really protesting against the cause of the war" (it went something like that) :lol: :lol: stupid
Yeah it is kind of stupid, but if you realize that a large number of Americans would have absolutely no problem with that statement (and say the same thinig) then you can begin to realize the state that this country is in. And just calling them stupid isn't going to change them. That woman learned but unfortunately she learned the hard way but there are still many people who have lost friends and family members but would rather believe the lie that they died for something important then to accept that they died for no worthy cause and that they have been duped.

I liked the movie. I won't bother getting into useless factionalism trying to define Moore's personal ideology, he does good work, end of story.

[RedLenin]

Yes although I dont agree with Moore, I feel he does an excellent job of exposing the Bush Administration to the average american. His film did have a impact on the american people and this scared the crap out of conservatives. Keep up the good work Mike. :)

[October Revolution]

The film was good overall and i suppose that if they belive in the lie it gives them piece of mind as to why their relatives die.

It did good at showing the Bush administration for what it really is. It was sooooo easy to get mad a Cheney and Rumsfeld becasue they are obviously evil but Bush even though i hate him and what he stands for i just end up feeling sorry for him because he's clearly an idiot and doesn't realise what he's doing :lol: . If he were smart then it would be so much easier. :lol:

[timbaly]

I thought the movie was incredibly overated. It was blatantly misleading propaganda at some points, one of those was the part in which the Saudi royal family was shown shaking hads with members of the Bush administration and Bush's father. All leaders do that with each other, it does not prove that they are working together in secrecy. Khruschev and Kennedy shook hands, that did not mean they were best buddies. Plus most of the informative parts of the film were things that anyone who's head is not in the clouds could have easily realized.

[October Revolution]

yeh the only real problem i had with it was the fact it was very strong in the propaganda department but apart from that it was a good film wel most of it was.