Top Iraq Terrorist Dead

[Skeptic]

Zarqawi dead: All those stories about Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi were fabricated!--Skeptic

Rebels: Top Iraq Terrorist Dead

March 4, 2004




Stopping Iraq Attacks


A statement from purported insurgents said Abu Musab al-Zarqawi died when he was unable to escape U.S. bombing because of his artificial leg. (Photo: AP)



"The truth is, al Qaeda is not present in Iraq."
Insurgents' statement


An Iraqi man pushes his wife on a cart as they pass by a blood-stained plastic bag outside a hospital in the Kazimiya neighborhood in Baghdad. (Photo: AP)


Crowds run after Tuesday's explosions near the shrine in Karbala. The death toll from the attacks is disputed, but more than 100 died. (Photo: AP /APTN)


Videos:
• Saddam Capture Videos

Interactives:
• Capturing Saddam

• Photos: Saddam In Custody
• Timeline Of Saddam's Life

• Postwar Iraq

• Saddam's Sons Killed

• Daily Photo Diary

• Fallen Heroes

• Inside The Hideout

• World Leaders React

Read:
• Interrogating Saddam

• What's Next For Saddam?

• CourtWatch: Saddam Trial

• Exclusive: Rumsfeld Intv.

• Analysis: Capture's Impact

• Analysis: Ace In The Hole

• Full Text: Bush Statement

• Bush Gets Political Boost

• World Leaders Hail Capture

• Dan Rather/Saddam Hussein Interview








(CBS/AP) An extremist suspected of bloody suicide attacks in Iraq was killed some time ago, and a letter outlining plans for fomenting sectarian war is a forgery, a statement signed by a dozen alleged insurgent groups said.

In February, the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq made public an intercepted letter it said was written by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi to al Qaeda leaders, detailing a strategy of spectacular attacks to derail the planned June 30 handover of power to the Iraqis.

U.S. officials say al-Zarqawi may have been involved in some of the series of suicide bombings this year in Iraq — including the massive mosque bombings on Tuesday that killed more than 100 Shiite Muslims.

But according to a statement circulated this week in Fallujah, a hotbed of anti-U.S. insurgency activity, al-Zarqawi was killed in northern Iraq "during the American bombing there."

The Fallujah statement called the al-Zarqawi letter "fabricated," saying it has been used by the U.S.-run coalition "to back up their theory of a civil war" in Iraq.

The claim reflects the murky enemy U.S. troops are fighting in Iraq. American officials agree foreign fighters are now the main resistance. But determining who they are, and how they operate, has proven difficult.

The Washington Post reports violence and turnover have hampered the CIA as it tries to answer those question.

In other developments:


U.S. soldiers and Iraqi police arrested a militant and former intelligence officer for Saddam Hussein suspected of leading a terrorist cell made up of followers of the extremist Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam, the military said.


Five Iraqi police were wounded in separate attacks on Thursday in northern Iraq. In Hadid, about 9 miles west of Baqouba, a U.S. Humvee was damaged when a roadside bomb exploded, injuring four soldiers, eyewitnesses said.


A rocket struck the green zone in Baghdad where the headquarters of U.S.-led occupation authority is located after five large explosions rumbled through the center of the capital late Wednesday. No injuries or damage were reported.


The Army has launched an investigation into a soldier's role in the shooting death of an Iraqi man during a raid last month.


The United Nations intends to hire "a top tier security firm" after a report blamed "dysfunctional" U.N. security for unnecessary casualties in a last year's bombing at the world body's headquarters in Iraq.


The Australian government appointed the former head of an intelligence agency to conduct a new inquiry into prewar information about the threat of Iraq's weapons program.


In Ramadi, 70 miles west of the capital, Baghdad, nearly 1,000 people rallied to condemn the near simultaneous attacks against Shiite shrines Tuesday and called for national unity. On Wednesday, Shiite clerics joined Sunni preachers in a march of thousands of mostly black-clad men in Baghdad.

In a sign of the bitterness over the lack of security, several thousand Shiites in chanted anti-U.S. slogans in one funeral procession. "No, no, Americans! No, no Israel! No, no, terrorists!" they shouted, carrying three coffins through Karbala's streets. Some took a sheet painted to look like an American flag and set it ablaze.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani and other Shiite leaders also accused the coalition of failing to provide adequate security for the worshippers and of not doing enough to prevent extremists from crossing Iraq's porous borders.

In what appeared to be a nod to the criticism, U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer said the coalition would help strengthen border security.

No group claimed responsibility for the attacks. However, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, Gen. John Abizaid, said Wednesday that the United States has evidence that al-Zarqawi was behind the bombings.

That evidence was contradicted by the insurgents' statement, which said al-Zarqawi died when he was unable to escape U.S. bombing because of his artificial leg.

The statement, which could not be verified, did not say when al-Zarqawi was supposedly killed, but U.S. jets bombed strongholds of the extremist Ansar al-Islam in the north last April as Saddam Hussein's regime was collapsing.

Bremer said Wednesday it was "increasingly apparent" that "a large part of terrorism" comes from outside Iraq. But the insurgents' statement denied that.

"The truth is, al Qaeda is not present in Iraq," the statement said. Though many Arabs entered the country to fight U.S. troops, only a small number remain, it said.

America's intelligence officers are having a hard time pinning down who is right.

The Post reports that the CIA now has four times as many spies in Iraq as it planned — 300 — making it the largest CIA station in the world, and the largest foreign station since the Saigon office during the Vietnam war.

But because of ongoing violence, CIA officers are required to travel with bodyguards, making it difficult to gather information inconspicuously.

And in order to fill their staffing needs, the CIA has asked retired officers to join the Iraq operation. To entice them and other officers to take Iraq assignments, the agency keeps them in country for as little as 90 days. The station chief was replaced in December, reports The Post.

Since midsummer, U.S. officials have struggled to understand who is behind the violence that initially was aimed mainly at American troops but recently has been directed more at Iraqi civilians.

U.S. and allied forces have chipped away at the leadership and financial underpinnings of the anti-occupation insurgency, which the military calls "former regime elements."

The holdouts from the defeated Saddam regime remain elusive and frequently effective in their attacks. But as that threat has weakened, other dangers have grown, chiefly from terrorist groups whose shape, scope and origins have been difficult for the Americans to define.

On a trip to Iraq last month, Abizaid expressed his oft-stated view that public reports of large numbers of foreign terrorists entering Iraq are overstated. Commanders on the ground generally agreed with that assessment.

But some commanders said they are worried most about what they call Islamic fundamentalists, whom they differentiate from terrorists, although both groups include foreigners.


©MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/05/...ain604191.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/05/iraq/main604191.shtml)

[Severian]

Highly doubtful. If Washington wanted to forge a letter, it could do better than the alleged Zarqawi letter....for example, the Bush et al speak of al-Qaeda having been in Iraq all along, and Zarqawi being a member of it, but the letter invites al-Qaeda to Iraq, which wouldn't be necessary if it was already there. Etc. Really, the letter doesn't support most of Washington's propaganda points, if you actually read it.

And the sectarian attacks on Shi'a, which the letter calls for, have definitely happened, as described in the article.

Washington likes to personify things into single demonized individuals; in that respect Zarqawi is certainly exaggerated. But the forces he symbolizes are just as certainly real and active.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 12:59 AM
Washington likes to personify things into single demonized individuals; in that respect Zarqawi is certainly exaggerated. But the forces he symbolizes are just as certainly real and active.
Have you been following the posts I've been making about Al-Zarqawi Severian? The Propaganda press has build him up into somekind of cartoon villian from the 1960s Batman TV series. How do you know that the bombings, kidnappings and beheadings attributed to him is not done by the U.S. government?

[LSD]

How do you know that the bombings, kidnappings and beheadings attributed to him is not done by the U.S. government?

Because it isn't in their interest to do so.

The more violence in Iraq the worse the administartion looks, there would be no point in fabricating violent incidence. This isn't "northwoods", there is no potential bennefit to the US from kidnappings and beheadings. The US doesn't need a reason to invade Iraq anymore, they're threre. There's pretty much no media scrutiny, the America can pretty much do whatver it wants in Iraq whenever it wants to do it.

It doesn't need an excuse to bomb if it wants to bomb, no one's watching.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 07:48 PM
The Propaganda press has build him up into somekind of cartoon villian from the 1960s Batman TV series.
I agree, in fact that's what I just said.


How do you know that the bombings, kidnappings and beheadings attributed to him is not done by the U.S. government?

Because that's a paranoid conspiracist idea, even more so than the idea that every one of these bombings is organized by one guy, or one terrorist organization. Uncle Sam is not a cartoon villain any more than Zarqawi is. Cartoon villains don't exist in real life, almost nobody thinks of themselves as evil.

The U.S. government is not all-powerful and is often pretty lousy at keeping secrets. It's probably not all centralized around one guy, but it can't all be done by Washington either.

Especially now when large sections of the national security bureaucracy - FBI and CIA career people, etc - and the military officer caste, are pissed at the Bush administration, and are constantly making leaks to embarass them. Partly because of policy disagreements, partly because the Bush administration is stepping on a lot of institutional interests, people's careers, etc., in its effort to reorganize the bureaucracy and military to be leaner, meaner, and more effective in promoting the capitalists' interests. If you follow the more serious capitalist press - stuff like the NYT, Wash. Post, Financial Times, the stuff the capitalists read themselves - it's got a lot of this kind of leaks.

Also, the Sunni-Shi'a sectarian division is real and has led to a lot of sensless violence for centuries in many parts of the world. Did ya read about the recent bombing in Pakistan for example? This is exploited and exacerbated by imperialism but they can't exploit what ain't already there.

I disagree with "LSD" though - a lot of this stuff DOES serve Washington's interests, especially the anti-Shi'a stuff plays into divide-and-conquer. And many Iraqis want security and stability above all.....Washington's failure to provide it may piss them off, but if they see the rebellion actively seeking to deny it to them, aka murder them, well they ain't stupid. That kind of thing can easily make people hate the rebels even more than the occupiers. And Washington does need to worry about what people think - including people in Iraq. OK, "LSD" is right that "The more violence in Iraq the worse the administartion looks" but I think that's outweighed long run by some of this other stuff even if Bush may disagree as he's worrying about reelection next month.

But again, Washington ain't all powerful and not everything that serves their interests is done by their hands. Sometimes they gotta rely on windfalls and opportunities like everybody else.

Here's a pretty decent article about what's wrong with the conspiracist worldview and why it's basically anti-revolutionary in its assumptions. (http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/conspiracism-07.html)

[Skeptic]

Thanks for the article from The Militant Severain. When I talk about 911 govt involvement in the attacks on the USA, Zaqarwi, or the Nick Berg murder I'm not trying to suggest that if we just got rid of the bad apples Bourgeois democracy would work! I follow the 911 Government Complity arguments. I want to know what is really happening. When it comes to the case of the Nick Berg murder something is definately wrong with the press story. The men surrounding him in the video are too white and too fat to be Iraqis and some of them are standing in Western 'at ease' military stances. In one scene for a few frames a guy in a U.S. military hat even sticks his head through a doorway. The possible reason why the U.S. would want to start beheading people on video could be to get the Abu Gharib torture scandal off the front pages of the press, they could have wanted to show imagines to try to make the Iraqis look worse than the U.S. intelligence interrogator torturers. There is much talk in the press about the possibility of civil war in Iraq should the United Snakes be forced to leave even temporarily. There are reports that U.S. intelligence or the Mossad have blown up mosques in Iraq to forment fighting between Iraqis. It think it is in the interests of the U.S. empire for things to disintergrate into internecine factional fighting so that one strong group doesn't pull things together which could more effectively fight back a later U.S. attack.

When it comes to events like 911 or the Oklahoma Murrah Federal Building bombing even official versions say they were conspiracies (more than one person conspiring to commit crimes). The press just says the U.S. govt. wasn't or couldn't be involved. I think we should take each incident on a case by case basis and look at the evidence first. To say that 'Marixist theory' says the consparicies don't happen would be errant methodology. There are many examples in history when the U.S. wanted a pretext to start a war and incidents were invented like the phony 'Gulf of Tonkin' incident or the blowing up of the battleshipe Maine at the start of the war with Spain.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:55 PM
To say that 'Marixist theory' says the consparicies don't happen would be errant methodology.
Straw man. Obviously conspiracies happen, you've pointed out reasons why this is obvious and undisputed by anyone, even the courts.

Conspiracism is the idea that vast conspiracies drive world history. Clearly the conspiracy required for the U.S. government to secretly organize all these attacks would be of such a scope. (Even to organize one, it would be improbably hard to keep secret.)

Conspiracists look for a conspiracy as their preferred explanation for any event; Marxists look first at the social forces involved, including the social forces behind those limited conspiracies which do really happen.

Most of which is explained in the link about conspiracism in my last post. Did you read it? If so, it's hard to see why you felt the need to set up this straw man and waste time knocking it down.


There are many examples in history when the U.S. wanted a pretext to start a war and incidents were invented like the phony 'Gulf of Tonkin' incident or the blowing up of the battleshipe Maine at the start of the war with Spain.

Neither of which was staged by the U.S. in the elaborate fashion that you suggest the Berg killing was, and many conspiracists suggest 9/11 was. The Maine probably blew up as a result of a spontaneous coal bunker fire igniting a powder magazine. The Gulf of Tonkin incident involved US Naval forces chasing around radar/sonar shadows and believing they might actually be under attack. To be comparable to your theories, it woulda had to involve the CIA organizing torpedo boats to actually attack the U.S. Navy, which in reality didn't happen. (Heck, it's possible though not likely that the Vietnamese did go after the U.S. Navy as part of legitimate self-defense against Saigon-regime commando attacks the Navy was aiding.)

In reality, Uncle Sam took advantage of chance events to justify both wars.

Rather like what's happening today - "chance" in the sense that the U.S. is not organizing these terrorist attacks by "Islamists", nor do they need to - their system inevitably breeds such atrocities.

I have to say this is not a very serious response on your part. You've chosen to set up a straw man and drag in irrelevant historical examples rather than refute any of my points or give any real reason to believe your conspiracy theory.

[Skeptic]

Severain, I have studied the details of the 'conspiracy theory' (a loaded word) that the United States government claims happened on Sept. 11th and their story could not possibly be true. It was reported in journals like Newsweek that the alleged pilots were on the U.S. government payroll and their addresses were U.S. agency language schools and military bases. These pilots didn't have the skills to fly the planes. The buildings, the WTC including building seven collapsed in ways steel structure high rises have never collapsed because fire in recorded history. The huge passenger plane the government says struck the Pentagon is no where to be found from the photos of the aftermath and the size of the initial hole found in the Pentagon is too small for a large airliner. Witnesses have stated that 22 fake radar blips were placed on FAA screens, a foreign group of rag tag terrorists couldn't have orchestrated this aspect of the conspriacy. How do you know Uncle Sam just took advantage of the events and didn't plan and carry out the attacks? What evidence do you have that it was a coal fire aboard the Maine and that it was not destroyed by a bomb or mine? Why do you choose to believe the Maine exploded by coal fire. The Gulf of Tonkin inncident, foreknowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor, or the Nazis burning down of their own Reichstag are examples in history of Imperialism using events (including planning and carrying out orchestrated events) in order to motivate populations to launch wars. Severain don't you think it is amazingly convienent that Zbigniew Brezinski should write five times in his 1990s book 'Grand Chessboard' that the USA needs a Pearl Harbor event in order to launch their war on Central Asia? Condeliza Rice made similar statements prior to 911 as well.

[pandora]

"My thoughts too have turned towards Falluja...the BBC correspondent there says the city is in ruins, streets full of bodies...a mini-holocaust in the making with a potential of 30,000 to 50,000 killed." Redstar

BBC link to reporters..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3992137.stm

Unfortunately I'm not the barbarian, wish I was all there was. The real barbarians are ourselves who condone these actions. It pains me to read the paper because it is so slanted.

Went to check Al Jazeera today, but has been hacked, no access to English version, do others have some problems? Ah finally got through, and it looks amazing finally a real web source okay here ya go. No it's not as "slanted as you would think, becoming more centrist as it becomes the only non-American source.
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage/

According to the BBC, the British Parliment is worried about images of massacres reaching the public and affecting public opinion.

Right now using your computer to send information is the way to spread information and stop this.
Talk left is also a good source they are here:
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/008666.html

Am afraid to look at the evil that has been committed, but can not do this. We must be aware of the monstrosties being committed in our name to help put a stop to this through public awareness.
http://info.interactivist.net/article.pl?s...d&tid=15&tid=14 (http://info.interactivist.net/article.pl?sid=04/04/16/0155225&mode=nested&tid=15&tid=14)

Found an interactivist website with some reports at:

I am so sad that people are suffering tonight, they waited till the day after Ramaddan when people were weak from fasting,
and the day after the election they planned it when they were secure.

I pray the people there can protect themselves from this, by hiding and doing what they can. The images of men on the floor worried me, would they be imprisoned, tortured, slaughtered.
I hope not the later. The US when it can't get it's way with torturing prisoners opts to kill them.

Am going to start a new topic on Falluja

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 08:29 PM
It was reported in journals like Newsweek that the alleged pilots were on the U.S. government payroll and their addresses were U.S. agency language schools and military bases.
Nonsense. Show me that Newsweek article saying the hijackers were on the U.S. government payroll. Most of your other "facts" also sound very dubious. "Witnesses say" all kinds of ridiculous things all the time.


What evidence do you have that it was a coal fire aboard the Maine and that it was not destroyed by a bomb or mine?

The History Channel did a reconstruction showing that this explanation is possible and fits with the layout of the Maine, how the hull plates were bent, and other known facts. It is not certain that this explanation is the correct one - which is why I said probably - but it does have the "Occam's Razor" advantage of simplicity.

If you want to use the Maine as an example of an orchestrated pretext for war, the burden of proof is on you to show that it was; I merely need to show that other explanations are possible.


Why do you choose to believe the Maine exploded by coal fire. The Gulf of Tonkin inncident, foreknowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor, or the Nazis burning down of their own Reichstag are examples in history of Imperialism using events (including planning and carrying out orchestrated events) in order to motivate populations to launch wars.

Actually, only the Reichstag fire is an example of "planning and carrying out orchestrated events", which is the matter in dispute. The others are red herrings.

And the Reichstag fire was the least successful, or at least the least widely believed even at the time. Even under the Third Reich, most defendants were acquitted.


Severain don't you think it is amazingly convienent that Zbigniew Brezinski should write five times in his 1990s book 'Grand Chessboard' that the USA needs a Pearl Harbor event in order to launch their war on Central Asia? Condeliza Rice made similar statements prior to 911 as well.

Convenient yes, amazing no. Such incidents are inevitably bred by their system. Pearl Harbor is a good example of this - not because of alleged foreknowledge of the exact time and place of attack, but because of the way the conflicting interests of U.S. and Japanese imperialism made war inevitable, and the U.S. maneuvered Japan into firing the first shot, by means of an oil and scrap iron embargo among other things.

This was publicly known at the time, without the need for all kinds of alleged secret evidence and elaborate conspiracies - in fact the main headline of the Militant, the week before Pearl Harbor, was on the inevitable conflict coming in the Pacific. That's a good example of the superiority of Marxism over conspiracism as a means of understanding and anticipating events.

[cubist]

whilst the americans lie,

it is very unlikely that he died then, if he did, someone else is orcastrating the rebels which is just as bad,

damn conspiracy stories never help the real cause, we all know what america is capable of and we all know that these stories have sod all effect on the blind eyes of the american/english working class

[Skeptic]

Thanks for all the good information Pandora, I had not heard of the extent of civilian casualites in Falluja before. 30,000 to 50,000. My thoughts are with the people of Iraq too. The torture chambers and prisons are terrible. What a vile trick to attack right after Ramadan. U.S. warfare uses whatever works hand has few limits of what it will do to people including civilians. That's the way the USA fights. What the United Snakes has done just to that corner of the world, especially in Iraq, rivals most other crimes in history! And the USA has done similar things in every region of the planet!

[Skeptic]

Severian wrote:

<<"Nonsense. Show me that Newsweek article saying the hijackers were on the U.S. government payroll. Most of your other "facts" also sound very dubious. "Witnesses say" all kinds of ridiculous things all the time.">>

This is where I got my information about accused hijackers working for the U.S. government and living on U.S. military bases:


“These were preparations long in place and the event of 9-11 was taken as the opportunity to place them into motion. Fifteen minutes after the hi jacked planes hit the Pentagon, Rumsfeld had put into motion a prearranged plan for preparing an attack on Iraq. This is but a little continuation of the false flag operation designed to service an agenda that was essential to the rulers of this society. The seizure of Central Asian oil and natural gas, the unleashing of a trillion dollar budget for the Pentagon, that would have never been impossible in American society without terrorizing the American people on a scale not experience before. The BBC on July 3rd, 2002, in a very important article by the BBC correspondent in Washington, Steve Kingston, states the following: “The only man charged in connection with the 11th of September attacks has asked to testify for the United States Congress. Zechariah Massoui states that he and the suspected hijackers were under full surveillance by the FBI prior to September 11th, and that the U.S. intelligence agencies allowed the attacks to happen. This is the latest in a series of hand written motions from Mr. Massoui to the judge. He states, “I have the relevant information and I have the proof, relating to the conduct of the prior knowledge of the FBI before September. He has asked for the chance,” The BBC reporter continues, “to share this evidence with U.S. lawmakers who are holding hearings into intelligence failings leading up to the attack.” The report continues that the statement by Massoui is a statement backed by what he calls documentations and evidence that he wants to present both to the court and the United States Congress, and he states: “The FBI chose not to make any arrests of people they were monitoring because they wanted the llth of September to proceed, to provide the excuse to destroy Afghanistan.” This is a quote from the BBC about Massoui.

MS: “As a follow up Ralph, the court filings of Massoui, which are public record, the judge has ruled that they will be secret and that the press, as you can see, with the BBC going with these court filings, that the public will be denied access to the court filings of Massoui, a further degeneration of the so called democratic rules of the United States.

RS: “Actually Mia its instructive to note that immediately after 9-11, the National Security Agency, as reported in the Washington Post, ordered the shredding of all data, and all documents pertaining to NSA material evidence bearing on September 11th. Shredded&#33; And at that time a rather instructive event occurred, as reported in the Boston Globe. Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida, oversaw the arrival in Venus Airport, Venus being the location of the flight schools run by the CIA, intelligence related Rudy Decker and Arney Reithoff, where these so called hijackers were brought from Hamburg to train. Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida, with a literal flotilla of Ryder rental vans, went from police station to police station in all the surrounding communities; they emptied those police stations of all their files and the investigative work on the movements of the suspected hijackers. They were taken into a C-130 aircraft and they were flown out of Florida. We are looking here at the apparatus of suppression of evidence and bearing upon the request of Massoui to appear before the Senate in today’s San Francisco Chronicle an editorial called ‘Snooping on the Senators,’ “The erosion of civil liberties is hitting home on the United States Senate. In a disturbing sign of the times none of the targeted Senators are fighting back. In an effort to track down information in the hands of Senators about pre-September llth intercepts reported on CNN, the FBI is demanding that all seventeen members of the Senate Intelligence Committee hand over all records of contacts with journalists. The agents are demanding their telephone logs, their memos, their visitor sign in sheets, their appointment books, their emails and any material that may have indicated contact with the media. The request,” the editorial continues, “is far broader than required to chase down the origins of any one story. It is especially worrisome because the administration has not made a case that its disclosure would be harmful to national security.” What we are looking at here is not just the terrorizing of the American people, but even the political spokespersons of the ruling class itself in Congress are being terrorized with the knowledge that any contact with the press about the massive evidence of prior knowledge and prior complicity of the intelligence agencies of the United States and the events of September 11th are not to be permitted.

MS: “And what do they have to hide? Title of an article, quote: ‘Did Terrorist Pilots train at U.S. Military Schools?’ On September 15th and September 17th, just days after the September 11th attack in the Washington Post, Newsweek and Night Ridder Newspapers, full discussions that in addition to having been inducted to U.S. flight training programs by two Dutch owned flight schools in Venus, Florida, the Ruby Decker Schools of which Ralph was speaking, as many as six of the so called terrorists, including accused ringleader Mohamed Atta, received training at U.S. military facilities. Newsweek reported that quote: “U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that five of the alleged hijackers of the planes in Tuesdays terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military instillations.” And Night Ridder was even more specific. It stated quote: “Mohamed Atta attended International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery Alabama. And Abdul Azese Alamari attended the Aerospace School at Brooks Air Force Base in Texas. Sied Agmati attended the Defense Department Language Institute in Monterey, California.

RS: “In addition to which Mohamed Atta and these accused hijackers gave their address at the United States Naval Instillation at Pensacola, Florida. And the training that they received at Pensacola has been equally documented. These are people who were in school of intelligence direction, military schools, which is absolutely impossible with out a full intelligence clearance. These are operatives. These are people who were operating under the control, under the observation, under the direction of the United States Intelligence Agencies. The hands of intelligence are all over the events of 9-11. Exactly as they were over the lynch pin event, according to today’s New York Times, of the World Trade Center bombing of 1993.

Exceprts from WBAI FM Pacific Radio show ‘Guns and Butter’ ‘9-11: False Flag Operation,’ from ‘Taking Aim’ a public affairs program weekly on Pacifica’s WBAI in New York. ‘Taking Aim’ is produced by Mia Schone and Ralph Schoenman.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 06:54 PM
Severian wrote:

<<"Nonsense. Show me that Newsweek article saying the hijackers were on the U.S. government payroll. Most of your other "facts" also sound very dubious. "Witnesses say" all kinds of ridiculous things all the time.">>

This is where I got my information about accused hijackers working for the U.S. government and living on U.S. military bases:
{WBAI interview transcipt snipped)
Yeah, I want a link to the Newsweek article - have you even read it? - not a paste of a talk-radio interview. Talk-radio is really the lowest form of news, stuff can be taken out of context or distorted or even outright lied about easily. Anyone with the slightest bit of skepticism would have gone to the original sources cited rather than taking the word of some guy they heard on talk radio.

And without a link, it&#39;s impossible to be sure of the origin of text pasted.

[Sankyo]

http://english.aljazeera.net/nr/rdonlyres/...2ae/54759/3.jpg (http://english.aljazeera.net/nr/rdonlyres/59d462dc-6f4a-4341-a0f5-8095072222ae/54759/3.jpg)

http://english.aljazeera.net/nr/rdonlyres/...324/54762/6.jpg (http://english.aljazeera.net/nr/rdonlyres/61a7b888-7c48-4471-9996-feb877cae324/54762/6.jpg)

http://english.aljazeera.net/nr/rdonlyres/...19b/54764/8.jpg (http://english.aljazeera.net/nr/rdonlyres/b64f3f65-5758-4448-a880-48bd0bb6a19b/54764/8.jpg)

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America brings freedom to Iraq

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Severian+Nov 16 2004, 01:43 AM--> (Severian @ Nov 16 2004, 01:43 AM)
[email protected] 15 2004, 06:54 PM
Severian wrote:

<<"Nonsense. Show me that Newsweek article saying the hijackers were on the U.S. government payroll. Most of your other "facts" also sound very dubious. "Witnesses say" all kinds of ridiculous things all the time.">>

This is where I got my information about accused hijackers working for the U.S. government and living on U.S. military bases:
{WBAI interview transcipt snipped)
Yeah, I want a link to the Newsweek article - have you even read it? - not a paste of a talk-radio interview. Talk-radio is really the lowest form of news, stuff can be taken out of context or distorted or even outright lied about easily. Anyone with the slightest bit of skepticism would have gone to the original sources cited rather than taking the word of some guy they heard on talk radio.

And without a link, it&#39;s impossible to be sure of the origin of text pasted. [/b]
Severain you do not practice Skepticism, your practice debunkery, we can&#39;t really have a debate about 911 because you haven&#39;t done your homework. Instead you come off with a snide, know it all snobbery about how "Conspiracies can&#39;t happen."

[Severian]

Originally posted by Skeptic+Nov 16 2004, 01:49 PM--> (Skeptic @ Nov 16 2004, 01:49 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:43 AM

[email protected] 15 2004, 06:54 PM
Severian wrote:

<<"Nonsense. Show me that Newsweek article saying the hijackers were on the U.S. government payroll. Most of your other "facts" also sound very dubious. "Witnesses say" all kinds of ridiculous things all the time.">>

This is where I got my information about accused hijackers working for the U.S. government and living on U.S. military bases:
{WBAI interview transcipt snipped)
Yeah, I want a link to the Newsweek article - have you even read it? - not a paste of a talk-radio interview. Talk-radio is really the lowest form of news, stuff can be taken out of context or distorted or even outright lied about easily. Anyone with the slightest bit of skepticism would have gone to the original sources cited rather than taking the word of some guy they heard on talk radio.

And without a link, it&#39;s impossible to be sure of the origin of text pasted.
Severain you do not practice Skepticism, your practice debunkery, we can&#39;t really have a debate about 911 because you haven&#39;t done your homework. [/b]
This from someone who admits his claims are based on talk-radio interviews.


Instead you come off with a snide, know it all snobbery about how "Conspiracies can&#39;t happen."

Not only a straw man but I already pointed out it&#39;s a straw man: everyone knows conspiracies happen, the question is whether conspiracies are driving world history.

[Skeptic]

Severain this is a feeble effort by you to refute the statement that I made. The show I cited was a serious discussion of the matter. Your cavalier dismissal of an important subject doesn&#39;t exhibit a scientific investigative attitude, or skepticism, it is just debunkery with a snotty &#39;know nothing&#39; attitude. My inquisitive additude towards the subject is the scientific approach, to find out what happened on Sept. 11, 2001.