Democracy In Ancient Greece

[enigma2517]

Just heard about this somewhere else.

I heard that Greeks had this direct democracy type of thing where all individuals rotated in and out of office and regular citizens could engage in collective community decision making. It kind of reminded me of a communist/socialist society. The only difference there being that some or most of this democracy was involuntary (you had to come vote on referendums or else you were jailed) and some of the economic/market things probably weren't controlled either.

Anyway I just wanted to hear what u guys know about this subject and how it might relate to general leftism.

[Funky Monk]

Well, they were a bit more restrictive on who was allowed to participate in this democracy.

[Kaan]

For the most part you had to be a land owning male who was born in the particular city-state, and who wasn't a slave. Not really too much of a democracy.

[ComradeChris]

I think you also had to be a male too. They were fiercely patriarchal.

[Guest1]

The negatives outweighed the positives, as the slavery and land-owning showed, but it was a good limited example of collective decision making. Greece only began to decline when they stepped away from that tradition to persue war and expansionism, bringing in centralized leadership to better persue it.

[comrade_mufasa]

Are there any goverments that still run on the original idea of Greek democracy. Not that of only males and all, but that of that everone has a direct say in the government. What kind of gonernment does Switerland have.

[LSD]

Just for the record "ancient greece" didn't try democracy, Athens (and a few others) did.

As for the kind of active direct / rotational system described, that was exclusive to Athens alone.


For the most part you had to be a land owning male who was born in the particular city-state, and who wasn't a slave. Not really too much of a democracy.

No, but it was quite radical for its time. Pretty muched pioneers active citizen involvment and presented the first real alternative to the Eastern Monarchy system.


Greece only began to decline when they stepped away from that tradition to persue war and expansionism, bringing in centralized leadership to better persue it.

I hate to disagree with you, Fehr... but you're wrong on this one.

Sure, you could argue that Pericles' ascension marked the end of democratic Athens, and that Cleon's pseudo-oligarchy lost them the war... but...

...that was just Athens.

Greece under Macedonia was stronger than it had ever been. The Greek empire and culture spread across half the continent. It would be fair to say that without Alexander's "centralized leadership", Greek culture would have never formed the cornerstone of western civilization that it did.

Greece went from a set of warring cities to the dominant power on earth... I wouldn't call that a "decline".

[Guest1]

Hehe, you're right of course.

[Tasha]

actually all males over the age of 30 or so could serve in a council

[Hiero]

Athens didnt really have direct democracy. Its was more representitive. Each community has organised groups to represent them with a leader of the group. Every citizen had a say in government but alot of citizens didnt have time to take interest in politics and economy. Then there were the leading bodies 9 archons and 10 magistrates(the leaders of the communities).


Sure, you could argue that Pericles' ascension marked the end of democratic Athens, and that Cleon's pseudo-oligarchy lost them the war... but...


Under Pericles it was the most democractice. He gave moe power to teh Assembly.


actually all males over the age of 30 or so could serve in a council

Thats sparta.

[LSD]

Under Pericles it was the most democractice. He gave moe power to teh Assembly.

Ah yes, the great illusion...

Read some Thucydides and see if you still believe in Periclean democracy.

Fact was that under Pericles, Athens was effectively authoritarian, it just had an assembly rubber stamp everything Pericles decreed.

[cormacobear]

what the Partido dos Trabalhadores, party in Brazil have been doing at least at the municipal, and provincial level is about the closest I can think of for participatory governing around now.

www.pt.org.br

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid Diethylamide
Read some Thucydides and see if you still believe in Periclean democracy.

Thucydides was deeply conservative and opposed the democratic party of Pericles on all matters of substance, did he not?

Hardly an unbiased source.

Given the aristocratic prejudices of intellectuals of that era, a "pro-democratic" history of Athens was either never written or did not survive.

Too bad...as it would have been very enlightening about what really happened then.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[LSD]

Thucydides was deeply conservative and opposed the democratic party of Pericles on all matters of substance, did he not?

True enough, in fact Thucydides and Pericles had been politcal rivals.

Unfortunately, it's the only contemporary record we have.

I guess you could read Plutarch, but it's 500 years out of date.

As for Pericles' democratic inclinations, although we don't have many unbiased records, we do know that he remained in power for 30 years, consistently managed to get his policies through, and was unquestioned ruler of Athens for as long as he was in power. Real political challenged never materialized.

Pericles was an aristocrat and surviving records do tell us that he never liked being around "common people".

Many innovations and reforms were made under Pericles, and, he was a positive democractic influence, espcially early in his political career. But to call him the inventor of democracy is a gross simplification and later in his rule it would be fair to say that he effectively ended the same democracy many credit him with starting.

But, again, a lot of this is based on shaky ground. As with all ancient Greek history, it's hard to know what's true and what's propaganda and myth.

It would be nice to get some unbiased contemporary records.

Whatever Pericles' role, history would bennefit from knowing what it actually was and not just what his rivals tell us it was.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid Diethylamide
It would be nice to get some unbiased contemporary records.

I don't place much hope on that possibility, then or now.

Bias in history is, I think, inevitable. Even when the actual events can be agreed upon, there are always a multitude of possible "interpretations".

In the end, we pick the "bias" that makes more sense to us than any other.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Proud Mary!]

I'd like to introduce you to a nice website dedicated to classical Athenian democracy.

http://www.stoa.org/projects/demos/home

There you can find a lot of articles dealing with this subject. The story about Athenian democracy is interesting and complex, being that it has so many layers... For the example, democracy in Ancient Greece (or Athens) wasn't the same kind of democracy we're fighting to have now, because it was focused on equality, but not on freedom. Right to participate in politics was a social privilege reserved for adult male citizens - equal among equals. Also freedom was enrolled in the game in a different sense of a word - freedom from necessity of organic, matterial, basic life...

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I'm actually going to say that Greece under Alexander The Great WAS in decline. The helenistic period spelled the end of Greek cultural and philosophical advancement. Under Macedonian rule, Greek culture was spread (across the Mediteranian, and, impressively, influenced as far off as China), but it was essentially becoming a sad shadow of the earlier, progressive, Helenic period.

[Hiero]

Under Macedonian rule, Greek culture was spread (across the Mediteranian, and, impressively, influenced as far off as China

Rome really did that after flattening Corinth.