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pandora
30th September 2004, 19:09
Want to use this thread for people to dialogue and discuss different view points on Iran, begining with feelings regarding recent historic events (Shah, Ayatollah, past attempts at a Communist Revolution) to current events with U.S. pressure on the regime. Some Iranians I speak to think this is just foul play by expatriate Iranians from Los Angelos desperate to return to Iran and make money, and not to take such events seriously, as Iran is still the strongest regime in the region.

There are a lot of theories regarding what can happen in Iran, basically the White House in it's heavy handed display of irrevance for religious differences sees Iran siding with religious fundamentalists in Iraq and therefore a threat to miltary practicality.

According to several sources there has been opportunity on behalf of many of Iran's citizens to use U.S. interest at this time to try to defeat the fundamentalist regime, this could be a good thing and a bad thing, particularly of the United States is involved.

The blue prints for W's take over of Iran are pratically on the table, and many exiles, yes some of whom are wealthy do want the United States to institute regime change in the region, but this is not necessarily a blessing either way.

What do you think? Correct me where I am wrong.

Perhaps people can discuss here what they would like to see in Iran for the future, and their hopes for the Iranian people and a true Revolution.

Gringo-a-Go-Go
1st October 2004, 01:24
Whatever is happening in Iran (NOT "Eye-ran"!!) right now -- this eventuality (if it's actually happening) is the developing situation which the U.S. and Israeli regimes have been planning to exploit for the longest time. On the blogsite linked to the Newswire posting, people are even pointing to Michael Ledeen's neocon crowd as their leaders in this(!?)

Not the crowd to 'run with' on Iran, I think..!

And your Irani contacts are right by implication: supporting any U.S. intervention here is aiding imperialism -- no matter who the U.S. imperialists choose to be their "wedge" "aid" recipients. It behooves communists to only support the progressive side of any revolution in Iran. Preferably an organized marxist-led one.
And the U.S. won't be supporting that side, now will it..?
(The only exception there would be if the commies were 'the only game in town' in the beginning -- in which case the U.S. would play footsie; but they'd stab those fools in the back faster than you can say "eh, wot?" at the first opportunity to back some rightist elements...)

Lenin and Marx et al. were quite right about which side to support in a "confused" struggle: always the side which represents the more advanced side of the issue at hand. So in an anti-imperial colonial war -- even if the colonials are only fighting for bourgeois rights -- you still support them, because they're the ones fighting oppression. With Iran (NOT "Eye-ran"!!) at no time do we support U.S. imperialism.
Ever.

Here's to the socialist Iran revolution!

redstar2000
1st October 2004, 03:58
I must confess that I've been catching a fair amount of flack for that Newswire posting...possibly because the source is apparently rather nakedly pro-American.

I don't see why that would make it any less interesting if there were to be a popular uprising against the tyranny of the mullahs.

There's no new word from the BBC...so apparently those folks at the Iran site just got a little carried away.

There seems, however, to be a wide-spread assumption that should the mullahs be overthrown, they will "inevitably" be replaced with a pro-American dictatorship and possibly even a new Shah.

I don't understand this.

It seems to me that Iran is quite ripe for an ordinary, garden-variety bourgeois revolution. I don't see why they are not perfectly capable of setting up a secular bourgeois republic willing and able to resist U.S. imperialism in defense of their own native bourgeoisie.

Why is it assumed that the only options are (1) theocratic despotism or (2) a quisling regime run from Washington?

I'm not taking seriously a third option..."socialist" revolution led by some small Leninist party. I don't think they have anything close to sufficient support among Iranian workers.

Meanwhile, it strikes me that a secular bourgeois revolution in Iran would be a very progressive development...I'm thinking it would support secular revolutionaries throughout the Arab world -- verbally and perhaps even materially.

And secularism is something that the Arab world needs desperately.

In the end, you just can't mount a successful resistance to modern imperialism with a 14th century ideology.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

percept¡on
1st October 2004, 05:20
Other than the lack of secularization, Iran is essentially a bourgieous republic already.

Tasha
1st October 2004, 05:41
The only one that the usa has to blame for the current regime in iran is themselves. Destroying the democracy in iran in 1953 under mossadegh and probably killing the spread of democracy in the middleeast. The end result? Religious extremists in power and a hatred for the us (nonexistent beforehandn). For Iran i doubt there will ever be a 'communist revolution or anything close to it, the old tudeh party in iran really never had much support. However I believe that there is an overwhelmingly majority of people who believe in mossadegh's way of government and democracy. The iranian people just need a spark to set them off and there will be a revolution. One interesting note is if you look at iranian history some great change happens every 30 years, we are closing in on that mark. As for Irans using us interests as a tool, I honestly doubt that, looking into iranian history they absolutely hate foreign intervention of any kind. If there is a revolution they want to do it. As for the usa actually attacking iran on a full scale war i seriously doubt, most likely they will push for sanctions in the u.n.. Whether or not they can get them is a question.

pandora
3rd October 2004, 00:19
Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 1 2004, 07:50 AM
Other than the lack of secularization, Iran is essentially a bourgieous republic already.
This is an interesting quote, if possible rent a movie from Iran called, "Marriage of the Blessed."

Unbelievable movie with footage from the Iran/Iraq war interspersed with veterns in the mental wing of a veterern's hospital in Iran, no doubt similar to the scene at the veterern's hospital in Wash D.C. right now with individuals aimming their crutch machine guns at those around them and screaming at the remembering of the bombs.

The point: The movie is not just about PTSD but about the break down of the Islamic Republic into a capitalist society. The hero still afflicted with PTSD which drives him bezerk at triggers, one of which is too men arguing over the price of a village on the market tries to to get his old job back at a newspaper.

He and his fiance go around at night and take pictures of the other afflicted from the Iran/Iraq war, the displaced starving and refugees hiding around Tehran at night cuddled under rags and newspapers, pretending to not exist. The criminal networks of stolen goods, the abundance of autos and steel and pollution, and selling off of Iran to the returning merchent class for the lowest! bid.

That the regime while claiming to be revolutionary has been selling villages marked as "gardens" and therefore not marked as feudal lands to the highest bidder while keeping the public busy with the war effort is a strong comment on both U.S. and Iranian society.

Still their are many Iranian investors reluctant to repurchase under this adminstation, and they are putting pressure on a already trigger happy U.S. State department. Seems the majority of Iranians are stuck between a rock and a hard place. It is interesting that the businessmen of both our country (U.S.) and their's (Iran) both espouse fundamentalism, even though I despise fundamentalism on all counts, they are so full of shit it is unbelievable. :P

redstar2000
3rd October 2004, 23:04
Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 30 2004, 11:20 PM
Other than the lack of secularization, Iran is essentially a bourgeois republic already.
I definitely agree...the bourgeois "state-machinery" is already in place. All they'd have to do is strip it of all the "Islamic features" and they'd be ready to go.

I think they also wish to get rid of the title "Islamic Republic".

There being still no further word from the BBC, it definitely looks like the champaign goes back in the freezer for the time being. :(

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Bazza
3rd October 2004, 23:40
I lived in Iran during the time of the revolution in the late 70's.
It wouldn't surprise me to see the US invade there next especially now they've got their troops based in Iraq.

Louis Pio
4th October 2004, 16:21
Well Iran has a long tradition for strong communist organisations and I think many has learned from the past mistakes.
Back in 1979 the pro-moscow Tudeh party allied with Khoimeini on the grounds that he was "anti-imperialist". They didn't even criticise him, that eventually got a great deal of their members killed. It would be a mistake to repeat the old mistake by once again teaming up with bourgious forces on the grounds that they are "anti-mullahs". Iran today has extreme high unemployment and a very large part seeks refuge in drugs. None of these problems would be solved by a secular republic. All it would do is to disillusion people. Independent working class politics is surely needed in my oppinion.

Louis Pio
4th October 2004, 16:39
Btw recently the regime imprisoned some striking workers. In the old days they would just have been shot but now they actually put them on trial. This is probably because 1. the regime is becoming more and more unstable 2. they know that social unrest is growing. It also seems that the international campaign against this has made the regime more unsure.
Iran: the trials of the other Saghez workers have been postponed under international pressure (http://www.marxist.com/appeals/iran_oct1_saghez.htm)

pandora
9th October 2004, 22:10
Who else here was disturbed by both candiates carving Iran up on the table in last night's open forum debate.

What a load of crap.

Asked Michael Parenti last week (he's promoting his new book Super Patriotism) whether or not he believes the adminstrations will attack Iran. At first he said that the troops were overextended in Iraq, but then sadly he acknowledged that they would most likely pursue airstrikes.

An air war!!! That means missles of depleted uranium being dropped on some of the most amazing sites in the world. Iran's water destroyed, plutonium everywhere, I nearly cried to think about what this means. But most Americans are so ignorant they have no idea of the beauty of Iran. It makes me sick.

He said that they would not persue a ground war as Iran is twice the size of Iraq and more populated, so airstrikes would be the solution. Sickening.

Over the same bullshit about yellow cake. Pakistan's had yellow cake for years but no one gives a shit!

All about the oil my friends. Parenti figured out the oil reserves for Iraq $3 trillion at current rate.

Had an argument with a professor from Harvard yesterday, who was extolling the offical line that the adminstration was not looking for control of resources but merely democracy. Me and a woman from Egypt had to bite our lips to keep from puking. I questioned him on this and the oil involved he looked at me like I just killed his dog in front of everyone and was dangerous. But admitted that control was a possibility but wasn't I being paranoid

PLEASe LOOK ON A MAP AND OBSERVE IRAN IN THE MIDDLE BETWEEN FORCES IN Afganistan and Iraq, another $4 trillion in oil sitting there and I'm being paranoid. What crap! It was more like don't upset the public ***** and shut up about this, we don't want to alert the public" and then he looked at me like I was a problem to be sorted.

No wonder Indymedia was screwed, they need total world domination of the media so the public doesn't find out what they're up to. The empire is growing to large to hide it's intentions

Daymare17
10th October 2004, 18:09
Socialists must NOT hand over the leadership of the struggle to the Irani bourgeoisie in ANY way. The bourgeoisie is behind the Ayatollahs. They are afraid of any revolution and will fight it to the death. It is a completely reactionary class. The only way forward for Iran is a socialist revolution led by the working class and the spread of the revolution throughout the Middle East and the world.

redstar2000
11th October 2004, 00:04
Originally posted by Daymare17
Socialists must NOT hand over the leadership of the struggle to the Iranian bourgeoisie in ANY way.

That's nice. On what grounds do you assume that "socialists" have any "leadership" to "hand over"?

If there is a huge ground-swell of public opinion in Iran that favors "socialism", why is it that we've heard nothing of it?

Is it because it doesn't exist?

The Iranians have never asked for my opinions (nor yours either, I'll warrant), but if they do, I will tell them attack the mullahs! Smash those reactionaries and their supporters first!


The bourgeoisie is behind the Ayatollahs. They are afraid of any revolution and will fight it to the death. It is a completely reactionary class.

My impression is different. I think the support for the ayatollahs primarily came from the traditional petty-bourgeoisie...the merchants in the old markets. I think the modern Iranian bourgeoisie, often western-educated, find the mullah despotism getting in the way of business and would much prefer to see a modern bourgeoisie republic installed.

I don't think they are "scared" of a popular revolution against the mullahs at all...indeed, I'm pretty sure they're probably financing it. As a "young" bourgeoisie, I think they have confidence in their abilities to "step in" and "take over" at the crucial moments. Indeed, I suspect the main problem that troubles their sleep is how to resist American imperial hegemony without getting bombed or invaded.


The only way forward for Iran is a socialist revolution led by the working class and the spread of the revolution throughout the Middle East and the world.

This is rhetorical over-kill...and completely a-historical as well. Why should a "world revolution" led by the working class begin in Iran?

From a Marxist standpoint, that's just wishful thinking.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

socialistfuture
11th October 2004, 03:52
I most definatly hold the opinion that it would be best for the Iranians to depose of the Mullahs/Ayatollah/etc themselves rather than have an american invasion to do it.
The notion that Iran is a threat to America and the west is rediculous - if they were to invade I think it would draw Iranians and Iraqis closer together which could at some point start to blur the border.. the were made by europeans after all.
Hopefully America will not be able to gain control of Iraq and that will give Iranian people confidence.
I read a small graphic novel (comic but about actual things rather than cheesy super heroes) about the Iranian revolution - it seems the people generally hated the shah and the ayatollah was able to capture the discent - that discent and desire for change exists today.. hopefully it can be chanalled against imperialism.
Real change in the middle east could spark change elsewhere.. come on Pakistan, Nepal, India... South america...

time for anti imperialist revolution!!!

Severian
11th October 2004, 19:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 08:58 PM
IThere seems, however, to be a wide-spread assumption that should the mullahs be overthrown, they will "inevitably" be replaced with a pro-American dictatorship and possibly even a new Shah.

I don't understand this.

It seems to me that Iran is quite ripe for an ordinary, garden-variety bourgeois revolution. I don't see why they are not perfectly capable of setting up a secular bourgeois republic willing and able to resist U.S. imperialism in defense of their own native bourgeoisie.

Why is it assumed that the only options are (1) theocratic despotism or (2) a quisling regime run from Washington?
You're quite right. Possibly the misconception you describe comes from the fact that Khatami & company (the "liberals") have a stated position that's a little more conciliatory towards Washington than the position of Khameini and company (the "conservatives" or theocrats). And many other liberals in Muslim countries invite imperialist support. But Khatami does not invite imperialist support, or propose some total capitulation to Washington, and in any case the class dynamics are more important than these nuances of their stated positions.


I'm not taking seriously a third option..."socialist" revolution led by some small Leninist party. I don't think they have anything close to sufficient support among Iranian workers.

It's not an immediate prospect, no, and probably the "Islamic Republic" will fall in some other way before it becomes an immediate prospect. Due to the low level of communist consciousness and organization at present. (There's probably more consciousness out there than finds organized expression, given Iran's history, but it'd take time for that to become the major factor in events again.)

But in the event of a mass uprising against the regime, workers and peasants would have to supply most of the ranks. Regardless of leadership, they'd put a certain stamp on events, it'd increase their self-confidence, probably the level of organization on at least the basic economic levels (unions or more likely shoras which carry out the same function in Iran), etc. Any new government coming out of a mass uprising would probably have to accomodate to the workers sentiments at least some - just as Khomeini initially did. Another reason to think it wouldn't totally capitulate to imperialism.


Meanwhile, it strikes me that a secular bourgeois revolution in Iran would be a very progressive development....

Sure, in that it would almost certainly increase Iranian workers' space to organize and discuss openly. AKA bourgeois democracy, which is not to be totally dismissed even though it's ultimately a fraud.

It might also be preferable on women's rights and some other areas.


I'm thinking it would support secular revolutionaries throughout the Arab world -- verbally and perhaps even materially.

Doubtful. Sounds like an assumption. I'm not sure what "secular revolutionaries" you're talking about - I know of secular reformers aka liberals, I know of secular nationalist regimes like the Syrian Ba'athists and Egyptian post-Nasserists, I know of various far-leftists which a secular bourgeois republic probably wouldn't support, I don't know of any bourgeois secular revolutionaries in the Arab world.

The overthrow itself would be a tremendous blow to the prestige of "political Islam", though. Look, in Iran, where they had the first "Islamic" government, the people hated it. ('Course, they'd try to reply those were Shi'a heretics or otherwise not "really Islamic", as many say already, but the damage would be done anyway.) And opponents of other "Islamic" governments would certainly be inspired and given confidence to overthrow them.


And secularism is something that the Arab world needs desperately.

In the end, you just can't mount a successful resistance to modern imperialism with a 14th century ideology.

Sure. Though actually "Islamic fundamentalism" or whatever is of modern origin, not the same thing as mullahs have been preaching for centuries. It's a backlash against modern developments. But couldn't agree more it's an insufficient weapon for success against imperialism, and is crap for many other reasons.

From another Redstar post:

I don't think they are "scared" of a popular revolution against the mullahs at all...indeed, I'm pretty sure they're probably financing it.

The Khatami forces - which are the main representatives of the liberal bourgeoisie in Iran - are certainly not angling for popular revolution. They are attempting to reform the regime, and put the brakes on militant actions against it. Khatami himself won't even support electoral boycott no matter how many candidates are excluded, etc.

A popular uprising that'll put them in power is very possible but they're not trying to promote it. Your "pretty sure" sounds more like an assumption rather than a conclusion drawn from facts or reports of current events in Iran.

Of course, many of the students who are probably basically radical-liberals are probably not scared of popular revolution, and would like to spark one. But that's not usually characteristic of actual capitalists.

If communists abroad are going to aid someone in Iran, IMO it should be worker-oriented forces. If I was living in Iran, though, I wouldn't exclude possibly joining in actions with liberals or others, of course, and would probably join any major uprising even if it looks likely to end up with the liberals on top.

redstar2000
12th October 2004, 02:42
Originally posted by Severian
I'm not sure what "secular revolutionaries" you're talking about - I know of secular reformers aka liberals, I know of secular nationalist regimes like the Syrian Ba'athists and Egyptian post-Nasserists, I know of various far-leftists which a secular bourgeois republic probably wouldn't support, I don't know of any bourgeois secular revolutionaries in the Arab world.

It seems to me that they "ought" to exist, given the class dynamics of Arab societies...and therefore I assume that they do exist (even though I can't read or understand Arabic and have not a shred of evidence to support this contention).

In particular, I think there "must be" an emerging secular bourgeoisie in "Saudi" Arabia...who resent not only the theocratic backwardness of the Saud despotism but, in more practical terms, the monopolization of profitable opportunities by the royal family and their associates.

At such time as there is a successful (secular) bourgeois revolution in Iran, then it would make a good deal of sense for the Iranians to support a parallel movement in the Arabian peninsula.

It seems to me that this anticipated chain of developments is a "reasonable one"...however, I concede that (once again) I'm speculating.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Subversive Pessimist
12th October 2004, 11:04
Bush has promised regime change in the country after he is elected.
As we have seen before, the US has a relatively easy time conquering the regular forces and take over the country, but that is when the real fight starts, like we have seen in Iraq. I believe religous groups leaded by religious leaders will be one of the things we will see. Other things will be beheading, suicide bombings, and lots of (civilian) lifes lost.

Iran is not the same as Iraq. They have a population on 68.9 million, while they most likely have better equipment then Iraq could ever dream of. I don't think they will attack the country before he is re-elected and has managed to ease the situation in Iraq.

On the issues of communist revolution in Iran in case of an invasion:

Last time I heard, there was about 100 people in the communist party of Iraq. Iran is bigger, but do they have more widespread support in Iran?

I have no doubt that communists in Iran might consider creating an uprising, but I am not sure that they have the people's support on the economic issues, and we communists do have a reputation of anti-religion, which isn't very good down there. Since Islam also is a religous, just as well as a political ideology, I believe that if a revolution would take place in Iran, they would come in conflict with the traditional values of muslims.

Severian
12th October 2004, 18:21
Originally posted by redstar2000+Oct 11 2004, 07:42 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Oct 11 2004, 07:42 PM)
Severian
I'm not sure what "secular revolutionaries" you're talking about - I know of secular reformers aka liberals, I know of secular nationalist regimes like the Syrian Ba'athists and Egyptian post-Nasserists, I know of various far-leftists which a secular bourgeois republic probably wouldn't support, I don't know of any bourgeois secular revolutionaries in the Arab world.

It seems to me that they "ought" to exist, given the class dynamics of Arab societies...and therefore I assume that they do exist (even though I can't read or understand Arabic and have not a shred of evidence to support this contention).

[/b]
Which is what I meant by "sounds like an assumption" in my last post.

The English-language press is sufficient to be aware of the major political forces in the Arab countries..."bourgeois secular revolutionaries" is not a remotely accurate description of any of them. There is no evidence supporting your assumption...which isn't surprising since the bourgeoisie doesn't generally play any kind of revolutionary role, and generally hasn't since at least the beginning of the 20th century at least.

Your usual political error is expecting the bourgeoisie to play some kind of revolutionary role, and in this case as in others you can give no concrete evidence that they are.


In particular, I think there "must be" an emerging secular bourgeoisie in "Saudi" Arabia...who resent not only the theocratic backwardness of the Saud despotism but, in more practical terms, the monopolization of profitable opportunities by the royal family and their associates.

Oh, sure, there's a bourgeoisie there. Some of them would like to see less theocracy. These people are often called liberals. They are not revolutionaries.

In many Arab countries, even the liberals don't have a particularly strong base of support, which is why they tend to look to imperialism for support instead.


At such time as there is a successful (secular) bourgeois revolution in Iran, then it would make a good deal of sense for the Iranians to support a parallel movement in the Arabian peninsula.

Since Iranian liberals are not working towards revolution in Iran - as you'd know if you followed the news from there a little more closely - it makes no sense to expect them to work towards revolution elsewhere, even if they come to power as the result of a revolution. (Just as Russian liberals, who came to power as a result of the February revolution they neither worked towards nor welcomed, didn't go around promoting similar revolutions worldwide.)


It seems to me that this anticipated chain of developments is a "reasonable one"...however, I concede that (once again) I'm speculating.

This can also be called an ideological preconception....and for a materialist, it can't be left to stand if it doesn't fit the facts. Which it doesn't.