Is Violent Terrorisum A Good Or Bad Thing - ??

[Unknown]

Your hear of all these acts of terrorisum that involve people being blown up and killing, so i dont know is it right or wrong on one hand there trying to get across a message and america is comiting thousands of terrorist acts so there no better but is it right, is it right to kill some one to get your political veiws across.......

[FtWfTn]

I believe there is always a way around violence. . .never are you forced to kill. . or start killing. . .And if you say otherwise then I believe your just plain ignorant

[saorise]

It depends on how you define terrorism. I don't consider the Palestinians terrorists- they are defending their country from a powerfull invader by whatever means they have available yet the isralies and yanks would have us believe they were terrorists. Theres a line from an Irish Republican song that says 'And you dare to call me a terrorist while you look down your gun, When I think of all the deeds that you have done'

[honest intellectual]

Violence that harms civilians is wrong. But there is often no other way to change the system, because those in power have ensured that there is no 'democratic' way to oust them

[Menshevik]

Terrorism is the deliberate military targetting of civilians. It's more than a military act of violence, it's murder. The US has been guilty of terrorism and many Palestinians are guilty of it now. If theyre protecting their country Saorise, why do they have to attack in marketplaces, in cafes, in schools, on buses--why?

[posterman]

I'm with Saorise. h/i misses the point, the death toll (don't know exact figurers) is terrible on both sides, we all agree, but when ordinary people are faced with an invading army which is preparred to use military might against civilians, then what more can we expect? The Palastinians are not terrorists but people fighting for their homeland! Terrorists are cowards, is suicide bomber a coward?

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from Unknown on 11:10 am on May 23, 2002
i dont know is it right or wrong[hr]If the public is not informed, they should be informed. And is they are informed and don't support your cause, it doesn't deserve to be supported 99% of the time.[hr]Quote: from Unknown on 11:10 am on May 23, 2002
on one hand there trying to get across a message[hr]Al Qaeda did not get a message across. And even if they had, do you think Americans would have supported getting troops out of Saudi Arabia because a crazed suicide bomber told them it's the best idea? Crashing an airplane in no way proves that a military pullout is right.

Lindsay

[James]

Terrorism is targetting innocent "dumb" civilians, so that your group gets publicity. I don't agree with that, if thats what the americans are calling it that at the mo.

Because earlier deffinitions said that terrorism is the use of terror to get people to do what you want. Not only is this wrong, its stupid. You want the people to be on your side because they WANT to be so. Not to be TOLD or FORCED to do so. Its not even going to be getting people on your side is it? Only when you or your thugs are present are the people going to be on your side. They will still oppose you in some way or another...even if its just mental opposition - its still opposition.

They won't oppose you if get them to do what you want, if its what they want to do as well.

I don't know if this is relevent...

[Menshevik]

!posterman, Palestine has never been a separate country, how are they defending themselves against an invader? And if suicide bombers target civilians, how are they not terrorists. They are trying to envoke terror within the Israeli population and the message they want to put forth is, "we want everyone of you dead." You're right, suicide bombers are not cowards, does that make what they're doing right? Purposely killing civilians is inexcusable; both sides are guilty of terrorism. Please don't assume that since Palestine is the underdog in this situation, that suicide bombers are just "people fighting for their homeland."

[saorise]

Suicide bombers are desperate people who attack Israel the only way they think will make a difference.
If you want to label them terrorists thats up to you. but how can you say that they are not being invaded??

[deadpool 52]

Violence begets violence.
It is a never-ending spiral of pain and misery.

[Unknown]

Thats True DP but if you are being oppresed some times the only way to break out of that is through violence, the thing about terrorisum is its just a word everyone in one way or another has fallen into its catorgary what you have to look at is the "terrorists" cause and his morels for example america boming afganistan was for revenge they had no morels beacuse they killed everyone not just the so called terrorists, these factors make it wrong, but suicied bombers who attack israels have no morels but there cause is a worthy one...

[posterman]

"If Jesus were alive today he'd be a guerrilla" Camilo Torres
http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/jesus3.jpg
Let's make a distinction between guerrillas and terrorists!!!!!
Terrorism is reactionary, the proletariat pay the ultimate price.
guerrillarism, or guevaraism is debatable, freedom fighters are just. What a nest of thorns!!!! Who decides which is which? At the moment, the US and Britain make a distinction between the fight of the oppressed and their oppressive violence. Who's side are you on?

[posterman]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/concuba3.jpg

[Unknown]

Kinda Off topic But, Howd you get those pics on

[James]

I think it is relevent.

In fact thats basically what the whole thing is about. I suppose its in the eye of the beholder...wether its terrorism or freedom fighting. I suppose freedom fighting is the cause, terrorism is the method.

If you get what i'm trying to say.

[Blasphemy]

is a nation, enslaved by another nation, is entitled to commit hideous acts defined as war crimes to free themsleves? are they entitled to use sinful methods just because their enemies use them?

morality plays a big part here. a great man once said that an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. think about it.

[CheGuevara]

O shut up you Israeli shithead. You Israeli whores shoot enough kids throwing lousy little stones, bombs are what you get.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 4:09 pm on May 25, 2002)

[James]

I don't know if that was aimed at me CHEG...according to you i'm now an israely shithead capitalist lover...hmmm


Maybe you need to chill a bit

[ComradeChe]

To Separate: You must know that in the israelian people there is no inocent people every one in israel over 15 male or female is a soldier, so when a bomber blows him self in a bus or resturant he is killing the soldiers not inocent CIVILIANS as you say, the inocent people are the kids and the women who were shot by snipers in there houses, the kids who were killed on the way to school, not a soldiers with hands dirtied with the inocent blood of Palestenians

[James]

I think that people shouldn't follow the palastinein cause blindly. I believe in their cause, but not their methods. I think all israelis have to join the army.

There is no excuse in my opinion for killing. No one deserves to die. And its stupid the whole situation. Some one gets killed, so the other side "revenges" the death, by killing another, and then they become the revengers and so on and so on. It doesn't take an idiot to see this. I personally feel that the palastiniens would do great if they applied proper pasifism to their cause. Just think, the world on a whole feels sorry for the palastiniens...but they also feel sorry for the israelis when "mad" terrorists go and blow them selves up in places of entertainment. Now if the palastiniens stopped killing...surely their reputation would increase...making the israelis look badder and badder...then the world would HAVE to step in. Its harder, but it would work much better.

My thoughts

James

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from ComradeChe on 6:55 pm on May 25, 2002
To Separate: You must know that in the israelian people there is no inocent people every one in israel over 15 male or female is a soldier, so when a bomber blows him self in a bus or resturant he is killing the soldiers not inocent CIVILIANS as you say, the inocent people are the kids and the women who were shot by snipers in there houses, the kids who were killed on the way to school, not a soldiers with hands dirtied with the inocent blood of Palestenians


wow, you have no idea whatsoever, don't you?

first of all, you get drafted at 18, not 15 as you wrote. besides, people don't have a choice, they have to be drafted. and when someone walks down street to a coffee house, he is not harming anyone, and he does not deserve to die. it's not like he's pointing a gun at someone.

if they only faught against soldiers serving in the territories i would support them. killing people in the middle of the street is [/b]WRONG[/b]. i can't understand how people can condone suicide bombing.

when my friend was shot dead in the middle of the street in jerusalem he wasn't harming anyone. we were on our way back home after hanging out in some club. he was a pacifist leftist, and he was shot dead. can you tell me he was a guily man with palestinian blood on his hands? if you tell me that, i would punch you in the face if i could.

[James]

Thats the problem. Both sides should just stop the killing.

[Menshevik]

Thats what most of us want, James, but it's easier said than done.

[ComradeChe]

Blasphemy
I am so sorry for your friend, but i am sorry for hundreds of palestenians who where killed by israel, i am sorry for my friend (may be my brother) who was killed by an israeli sniper, why? because he was driving an ambulance, he wasnt driving a car full with TNT or a Tank or wearing bombs around his waist, he was helping the injureds.

[Blasphemy]

you have lost someone close to you. someone who was innocent. someone who wasn't harming anyone. how can you condone the killing of innocent people? how is killing your friend wrong, and killing israeli innocent people isn't? killing innocent people is wrong, no matter who does it and for what cause.

[Blasphemy]

allow me to rephrase my last sentence:

KILLING IS WRONG

[Lefty]

yes. it is wrong. no, honest intellectual is not wrong. the palestinians are terrorists of the worst sort. they sneak into places where people are having fun and kill them. if you justify that, i can not see how they are defending their country. of course, the ones that stand up to the israelis directly are courageous and they deserve to be listened to. the people that kill innocents are wrong, and it is good that they die. they deserve much worse.

[ComradeChe]

we have the same piont that killing inocent people is worng, but we disagree about the definition of inocent people.

[James]

I know that its easier said than done, but some people don't seem to want to stop. Thats what i'm saying. I think the best thing to do is to send in the UN on peace keeping, and force israel back to the old borders...even though they were invaded...

James

[ComradeChe]

you've said it sending UN,
But why does contries like USA refuse it?!
Thats a question

[Blasphemy]

when someone is not wearing uniform and not pointing a gun at someone, he is innocent. when someone is eating lunch in a restaurant, he is innocent. when someone is going to school, he is innocent. these people do not deserve to die. blowing yourself up is not courageous! it's cowardly. standing up and fighting is courageous. is it brave to shoot a helpless school boy on his way to school? explain to me, comrade che, how is murdering a baby courageous, because i fail to understand.

[man in the red suit]

I promised myself I wouldn't get back into this subject but for some reason I found my way back.

I just had to say that blasphemy took the words right out of my mouth. You tell em blasphemy!! blasphemy really knows what he's talking about. I agree with him 110% there is no honour in harming innocents. killing should not be condoned. bombing is cowardly when it is causes harm to innocent civilians. It is sickening to me that someone could do such a thing. As someone said earlier, there is always a way around violence whether or not you see it right away.

I know i'm going to be hated by many of you now (most especially comrad che) but I had to support blasphemy because I am a strong believer in supporting what I think is right. I hate to see a good person fighting the ignorant on his own. I know I'm not supporting this as much as I know I should but if I continue any longer I'll get banned. Good luck to you blasphemy, I hope you inform these people what is really happening!

[ComradeChe]

I am not goin to hate you Man in red suit

And i am with blasphemy in killing inocent and you've defined inocent people in a right way, i am with you in that, but for the palestenians in my opinion, they don't think that any of the Israelians are an inocent person, cause They've taken the land of Palestine (Israel now).
So i think if all the israelies leave Israel and go back were they've come from, the Palestenians aint going to follow them to their countries.

[man in the red suit]

actually I believe it was someone else who will hate me not you comrade che :). But thanx for not hating me anyway. You're a pretty cool guy. I like you already. No,
I believe it was the one who called poor blasphemy an
"israeli shithead" and had an avatar of young che who I think will hate me. It is only a matter of time before he is calling me an israeli shithead!

[Blasphemy]

the israelis will never leave this land. i was born here, and i have been raised here. how can anyone expect me to leave?

[ComradeChe]

You was born in Palestine, but where have your parents come from or your grandparents, i dont think they were born in Palestine too

I am with the generation of Peace and Love not war

[Blasphemy]

actually, my family has been living in israel for almost 200 years. my grandfather was a very respected and honourable historian of israel, and is considered to be the greatest so far. this is my home, and the home of my family.

[ComradeChe]

I See

[Blasphemy]

you can't expect the jews to leave israel, just like you can't expect the palestininas to leave.

[man in the red suit]

wait, blasphemy are you palestinian or israeli? what?
I'm very confused. I thought you were backing zionists but you're saying you're palestinian.....??? I guess I don't understand.

[CheGuevara]

No, no one expects them to leave. Which is why we'll make the landstealing ones do so at the barrel of a gun. Then they can reenter the country and acquire their land fairly. Those that acquired it fairly in the first place(yes, I'll admit, not all the Israelis stole the Palestinian land) can stay.

[Blasphemy]

when did i say i am a palestinian?

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from ComradeChe on 12:14 pm on May 26, 2002
You was born in Palestine,


so im guessing this is just the referring to the land palestine and not that that is your nationality right?

my bad sorry.

[maxfish17]

I'm sure the people who are saying the Israelis should all leave know that there is NO WAY that's going to become a reality. The Israelis won't leave, and the palestinian suicide-bombers won't stop until they get most of their land back.

I agree partly with what James said at the beginning, that they should push the borders back (to what they were in 1947) and that's the only way for peace. He suggested they get the UN to do it. Unfortunately the UN is simply a puppet of the U$ and the U$ supports Israel, so at this point there's no legitimate organization to put the borders back.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 12:28 am on May 27, 2002

Quote: from ComradeChe on 12:14 pm on May 26, 2002
You was born in Palestine,


so im guessing this is just the referring to the land palestine and not that that is your nationality right?

my bad sorry.


ComradeChe refers to the land as palestine while i refer to it as israel. i am a jewish israeli.

maxfish, if you want to talk borders, the only borders are the pre-1967 borders. israel will never accept the partition now, and i don't think the palestinians can demand it because they refused to accept it in 1947. but i don't want to get into it because i already know the views which contradict mine, so there is no need to repeat it.

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 5:51 pm on May 25, 2002
besides, people don't have a choice, they have to be drafted.


Yep. Just following orders. Nothing you can do. I bet there were quite a few Nazis who said the same thing. But hey, orders are orders right?

[Blasphemy]

you didn't get me right. people should die because they are soldiers because they are drafted by the state. i'll be a soldier sometime, but i will definitely not go to a combat unit because i'm a pacifist.
so if they want to fight the soldiers, they should fight the soldiers fighting them.

[saorise]

Blasphamy you say
"israel will never accept the partition now, and i don't think the palestinians can demand it because they refused to accept it in 1947."
You say because they refused to accept the partition of their country in 1947 they can't demand it now- listen to what you are saying- that they have no right to expect the PARTITION OF THEIR COUNTRY?
What the fuck- you should be glad you are even offered this. If your family have lived in PALESTINE for 200 years then you are part of the minority of Israelis. Should you not consider yourself a Palestinian Jew.

Also you can't expect Palestinians to fight the Israeli army face on they would be slaughtered. They don't have hundreds of tanks and planes etc

[Blasphemy]

they can't fight the military so they salughter innocent people in the middle of the street instead? give me a break. those "maryrs" are a disgrace to the palestinian just struggle.

[Anonymous]

If people are fucked about and pursicuted enough they will turn to desperate and violent actions. The killing of innocents is wrong though.

(Edited by kill The Capitalists at 10:23 pm on May 27, 2002)

[hobo]

i dont think that violence is right in most forms, but in Palestine it is a desperate cry for help from a country which has lost 42% of its land and in undefended from genocides which are just covered up.

[bernisto]

There's no need for a suicide bomber to go to a shopping centre and explode is there? Why not walk by a soldier/barracks or a police station - someone doing their shopping with their family is no target for anyone with anyone that is fighting for freedom.

[hobo]

Yeah but if Israeli soldiers can shoot babies (which they have i have seen a most disturbing picture which shows this) then you will blow up anything you can. do you not thin that the places you sugguested might have a little protection against suicide bombers?

[M O E]

I have to say blasphemy,
if all Isrealis were like you, I think the situatuion would never have gotten to the state it's in today. You're one of a kind, that's the problem.
you see, I'm descendent of the Canaan tribe, they have lived in the area now Isreal for hundreds of years, most of us are today known as Palestenians. My grandfather (from my mother's side) was a carpenter in Palestine, he had 4 co-workers at the shop, one of them was his neighbor and best friend, and he was Jewish. After the occupation my grandfather was forced with his family into exile. They left to Lebanon first, then to Saudi Arabia.
My father's family was forced into a refugee camp in Gaza, where my grandfather (my dad's side) died of grief after a short period due to the fact that his land in their villiage, which has been passed down to him through many generations, was confiscated and turned into a Jewish settelment. My father was smuggled out into egypt, where he suffered for a long time, untill he got everything together and finished medicine school. He later moved to Saudi because of better job opportunity, and that's where he met my mom. He's now making a very good living as a doctor. I had to move to Canada and apply for citizenship because my passport was worthless.

A couple of months ago my cousin was sniped during a funeral/protest.

Is that fair Blasphemy? you talk about suicide bombers being wrong, but you don't even know the half of it. All the trouble I and my family have been through just due to the fact that we are Palestinians is nothing compared to some of the other cases.
You're one of the better ones Blasphemy, but many Palestenians have seen enough death, misery, hate, and grief to make them go out and label every Jew as the enemy, even their offspring are seen as potential enemies. I'm not one of those people though, I really hope there's a better solution, but Isreal doesn't seem to want it.

[Menshevik]

Well MOE, since you have a quote from Gandhi as your sig, you would know that "an eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind." It's true that the Palestinians have suffered greatly, but suicide bombers, no matter how just you think their cause is, are murderers. They are attacking civilians to inflict terror, nothing more.

[Anonymous]

Totally. Killing women and children is dispicable. They have not done anything. The military should be targeted.

[Anonymous]

Totally. Killing women and children is dispicable. They have not done anything. Why can't they blow themsleves up outside military instalations ect.?

[M O E]

Menshevick and Kill, I totally understand what you're saying.

I understand that an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, and Gandhi is one of the people I look up to and respect. If you read my message carefully, you will see that I never said that what they're doing is right, but it's easy for us to sit here and look from the outside in, analyze the situation and judge it according to the analysis. I'm just saying that people in desperate situations resolute to desperate measures.

Do I understand why they're doing this? yes.
Do I think it's right? absoloutly not!

[saorise]

I agree that women and children should not be targeted but when Palestinian woman and children are killed the outpouring of grief seems a hell of a lot less than it does when an Israeli is killed doesn't it? I disagree with attacking civilian targets but can see the (obviously twisted) logic behind it. They want to cause maximum disruption of normal life in Israel and cause the maximum casualties. This wouldn't happen if they were to try to bomb a barrack because they'd be shot before they got close.

[Anonymous]

I just find it so sad. MOE i do agree that i really could not have an idea what it's like. But you are saying that it's justified? Killing innocents?

[Blasphemy]

MOE, i totally feel for you. i have lost a dear friend in the intifada. i know how it is to lose someone close to you. i know the feel of anger and frustration, how it feels to just want to kill somebody. but killing will not bring the dead back to life.

what have the suicide bombers achieved? yesterday, another one blew himself up in petach tikva. what did this achieved? nablus was raided by the IDF. before the intifada, tens of thousands of palestinians worked in israel. now they don't anymore. unemployment there is sky high. their slogan is "in blood and fire we will free palestine", but in blood and fire they will only achieve more blood and more fire. palestine will only be freed with negotiations. peace will only be achieved with negotiations. people on both sides fail to understand it.

[Reuben]

Quote: from M O E on 3:40 am on May 28, 2002
I have to say blasphemy,
if all Isrealis were like you, I think the situatuion would never have gotten to the state it's in today. You're one of a kind, that's the problem.
you see, I'm descendent of the Canaan tribe, they have lived in the area now Isreal for hundreds of years, most of us are today known as Palestenians. My grandfather (from my mother's side) was a carpenter in Palestine, he had 4 co-workers at the shop, one of them was his neighbor and best friend, and he was Jewish. After the occupation my grandfather was forced with his family into exile. They left to Lebanon first, then to Saudi Arabia.
My father's family was forced into a refugee camp in Gaza, where my grandfather (my dad's side) died of grief after a short period due to the fact that his land in their villiage, which has been passed down to him through many generations, was confiscated and turned into a Jewish settelment. My father was smuggled out into egypt, where he suffered for a long time, untill he got everything together and finished medicine school. He later moved to Saudi because of better job opportunity, and that's where he met my mom. He's now making a very good living as a doctor. I had to move to Canada and apply for citizenship because my passport was worthless.

A couple of months ago my cousin was sniped during a funeral/protest.

Is that fair Blasphemy? you talk about suicide bombers being wrong, but you don't even know the half of it. All the trouble I and my family have been through just due to the fact that we are Palestinians is nothing compared to some of the other cases.
You're one of the better ones Blasphemy, but many Palestenians have seen enough death, misery, hate, and grief to make them go out and label every Jew as the enemy, even their offspring are seen as potential enemies. I'm not one of those people though, I really hope there's a better solution, but Isreal doesn't seem to want it.


Really great post comrade.

[M O E]

you guys are having a problem understanding me. I never said they were right, I'm only saying that blowing yourself up and taking others with you is not something that people normally do to fight back, those people are desperate, and all Jews to them are the enemy. So to them it doesn't matter if you're a civilian.

If you're saying they should fight back against the Isreali army, then you're basically saying that they might as well shoot themselves in advance. And if you're saying that negotiations is the best way, then you're basically saying that there will never be a solution.
Even IF Isreal gives back the land they took in 67, what will happen to all the jewish settelments? Isreal doesn't want to leave them, nor will they stop building new ones. That's why I said to Blasphemy that you're one of a kind, because the rest of the Jewish people in Isreal are chanting "death to Arabs", and their negotiations seem to always go something like this "All right, you can't have this, this, this, and this. You MUST do this, this, and this. And all we're willing to offer is this. Now let's negotiate."

[M O E]

thanks Reuben, I really appreciate your comment . Just glad to be here. And glad to be able to express my point of view with intelligent people, not people who will resolute to my posts with childish name calling, and meaningless swearing.

[Blasphemy]

you are wrong, MOE. a lot of israelis support my views - putting an end to the occupations and dismantling the jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

and negotiationg IS the only way to put an end to it. we were so close to a solution during the Oslo Peace Process with Yitzhak Rabin.

[Reuben]

Your welcome MOE.

Blasphemy is right. Many jews, myself included, oppose the occupation and actively fight against it botha as citizens, and specifically as jews, angry at what is being done.

[Reuben]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 12:43 pm on May 29, 2002
you are wrong, MOE. a lot of israelis support my views - putting an end to the occupations and dismantling the jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

and negotiationg IS the only way to put an end to it. we were so close to a solution during the Oslo Peace Process with Yitzhak Rabin.


The thing is that at Oslo, the two sides were only brought close to peace as a result of an extremely huge compromise on the part of the palestinians. This involved the palestinians recognising Israel in78 PER CENT of whatt was pre 1948 palestine. Most palestinians I know feel he was wrong to make this compromise.

Unfortunately the Israeli leaders wnated even more. Furthermore because of the generosity of Arafat icn conceding all but 78 per cent of historic Palestine, the Israeli government could say they were offering Arafat '95 %' not mentioning that htiss was simply a proportion of the twenty two per cent that Arafat hadnt conceded.

The truth about Baraks generous offer is that it involved ten percent of the occuppied territories being PERMANENTLY annexed and a further ten per cent going into "indefinite israeli control'

In conclusion, while Israeli leaders could have responded to the extreme generosity of the PLO with a real peace initiative, they have instead used what happend to try to extend their claim to occuppied paestine.

Reuben

[M O E]

If what you guys saying is true, and most Isreali Jews are supporting the palestinian cause, then why is it that nothing has been done untill now. I understand that there are many people who think the way that you do, and I respect that, but there are still many many more who would deny the existence of a palestinian state, or just simply keeping palestinians as a minority, because they claim that this is "vital" to the existence of the jewish state.

[ComradeChe]

I'm with Blasphemy that lot of Jews want to end the occupations, but (as i think) they are maybe with big numbers but they dont have the power and influence on the gov.
That what i think,
What about you Comrades esp. Blasphemy cause you live there.

[Menshevik]

Ok, MOE, I see your point. It's true that for years, when Palestinians were being killed, no one blinked, but now that Israelis are dying, it's arms across the globe for Israel.

[Reuben]

Quote: from M O E on 3:57 pm on May 29, 2002
If what you guys saying is true, and most Isreali Jews are supporting the palestinian cause, then why is it that nothing has been done untill now. I understand that there are many people who think the way that you do, and I respect that, but there are still many many more who would deny the existence of a palestinian state, or just simply keeping palestinians as a minority, because they claim that this is "vital" to the existence of the jewish state.


I dont think that most israeli jews are pro-palestinian. I am speaking as a british jew myself.

I was just saying that the is pro-palestinian activity, both amongst israelies and also amongst jews in the diaspora.


Having said that, t with many jews here are very pro-israel

[Blasphemy]

well, MOE, i wouldn't go as far as saying the MOST israelis support the end of the occupation, but there are definitely a lot.

Reuben, oslo was a fair agreement, that would have eventually put an end to the suffering of the palestinian people. i think that every negotiations that will start in the future must be based upon oslo and the saudi initiative.