Bourgeois Socialists And The Working Class

[RedCeltic]

I was recently asked a question in another thread that poses another urgent question in my mind… I was asked:


When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.

This shows a total lack of understanding of the real issues and problems of the Proletariat…. Much so that it brings into question how someone who so obviously is detached from our class can profess an ideology that preaches our organization as a class?

If this person had been of the working class they would have known full well why young people in poor communities are duped into serving in the armed forces and would understand my personal struggle as a member of the working class and as a socialist to help children who are growing up poor like I did, keep from falling into the same trap.

Now, I do realize that the left has a history of following leaders of the Bourgeois class who profess to support a revolution of the proletariat… such people like Marx, Engels, Lenin, and even Che. However all of these individuals had realized the problems and traps that the proletariat falls into created by the capitalist system and supported by their own bourgeois class.

Even the bourgeois liberal Michael Moore displays and understanding of this trap the working class fall into in an elementary way in his recent documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11. “

It is not very hard to understand the parameters and the context of the trap of military service that we fall prey to as a class…. When you are part of our class. If the individual I quoted above had been of our class he would have been subjected to the same years of military propaganda as I, would have seen the military recruiters in her/his neighborhood and schools and would have heard the same lie professed over and over… that somehow military service was a way out of the cycle of poverty.

A Vietnam War vet had recently said to me that he had two bronze stars and a purple heart in a box at home in his drawer, yet still has to scrape by and barely able to keep himself from becoming homeless. The absurdity of the capitalist system is that not only does three metals and two tours in Vietnam do nothing to keep him out of poverty, yet they would if they could… keep him from complaining about it. What’s even more outrageous than this however is that at least one person on this message board would keep this person from organizing as a class since he joined the USMC willingly? As if to say that once you are down you must stay down.

[RedCeltic]

I was recently asked a question in another thread that poses another urgent question in my mind… I was asked:


When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.

This shows a total lack of understanding of the real issues and problems of the Proletariat…. Much so that it brings into question how someone who so obviously is detached from our class can profess an ideology that preaches our organization as a class?

If this person had been of the working class they would have known full well why young people in poor communities are duped into serving in the armed forces and would understand my personal struggle as a member of the working class and as a socialist to help children who are growing up poor like I did, keep from falling into the same trap.

Now, I do realize that the left has a history of following leaders of the Bourgeois class who profess to support a revolution of the proletariat… such people like Marx, Engels, Lenin, and even Che. However all of these individuals had realized the problems and traps that the proletariat falls into created by the capitalist system and supported by their own bourgeois class.

Even the bourgeois liberal Michael Moore displays and understanding of this trap the working class fall into in an elementary way in his recent documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11. “

It is not very hard to understand the parameters and the context of the trap of military service that we fall prey to as a class…. When you are part of our class. If the individual I quoted above had been of our class he would have been subjected to the same years of military propaganda as I, would have seen the military recruiters in her/his neighborhood and schools and would have heard the same lie professed over and over… that somehow military service was a way out of the cycle of poverty.

A Vietnam War vet had recently said to me that he had two bronze stars and a purple heart in a box at home in his drawer, yet still has to scrape by and barely able to keep himself from becoming homeless. The absurdity of the capitalist system is that not only does three metals and two tours in Vietnam do nothing to keep him out of poverty, yet they would if they could… keep him from complaining about it. What’s even more outrageous than this however is that at least one person on this message board would keep this person from organizing as a class since he joined the USMC willingly? As if to say that once you are down you must stay down.

[RedCeltic]

I was recently asked a question in another thread that poses another urgent question in my mind… I was asked:


When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.

This shows a total lack of understanding of the real issues and problems of the Proletariat…. Much so that it brings into question how someone who so obviously is detached from our class can profess an ideology that preaches our organization as a class?

If this person had been of the working class they would have known full well why young people in poor communities are duped into serving in the armed forces and would understand my personal struggle as a member of the working class and as a socialist to help children who are growing up poor like I did, keep from falling into the same trap.

Now, I do realize that the left has a history of following leaders of the Bourgeois class who profess to support a revolution of the proletariat… such people like Marx, Engels, Lenin, and even Che. However all of these individuals had realized the problems and traps that the proletariat falls into created by the capitalist system and supported by their own bourgeois class.

Even the bourgeois liberal Michael Moore displays and understanding of this trap the working class fall into in an elementary way in his recent documentary “Fahrenheit 9/11. “

It is not very hard to understand the parameters and the context of the trap of military service that we fall prey to as a class…. When you are part of our class. If the individual I quoted above had been of our class he would have been subjected to the same years of military propaganda as I, would have seen the military recruiters in her/his neighborhood and schools and would have heard the same lie professed over and over… that somehow military service was a way out of the cycle of poverty.

A Vietnam War vet had recently said to me that he had two bronze stars and a purple heart in a box at home in his drawer, yet still has to scrape by and barely able to keep himself from becoming homeless. The absurdity of the capitalist system is that not only does three metals and two tours in Vietnam do nothing to keep him out of poverty, yet they would if they could… keep him from complaining about it. What’s even more outrageous than this however is that at least one person on this message board would keep this person from organizing as a class since he joined the USMC willingly? As if to say that once you are down you must stay down.

[Lardlad95]

I find that the majority of people here are themselves detatched from the working class, capitalist and communist alike. The capitalist says "the working class doesn't know what's best for themsleves so let me profit from this". The communist says "the working class doesn't know what's best for it's self so let me force my ideas upon them".

We've gone a long way from understanding and fighting for the needs of the common man. Instead we patronize and tell them what's good for them.

I come from a working class family. My father was in the military, and through out most of my life we were pisspoor. My entire childhood I was lambasted with patriotic garbage because I attended schools for military children. Fortunately however, having seen the life that the military offered my father I was smart enough to become supicious of it. THough for a good 2 years of my life I did foster the idea of the joining the navy. The propaganda is indeed strong. however I came to the conclusion that it would do me no good and is the farthest thing from my mind.

I agree with you, the military "seems" like a good option to working class youths because of the propaganda, and the false dream of a better life. I know many people who joined the military only to fall into the same trap my father did.

[Lardlad95]

I find that the majority of people here are themselves detatched from the working class, capitalist and communist alike. The capitalist says "the working class doesn't know what's best for themsleves so let me profit from this". The communist says "the working class doesn't know what's best for it's self so let me force my ideas upon them".

We've gone a long way from understanding and fighting for the needs of the common man. Instead we patronize and tell them what's good for them.

I come from a working class family. My father was in the military, and through out most of my life we were pisspoor. My entire childhood I was lambasted with patriotic garbage because I attended schools for military children. Fortunately however, having seen the life that the military offered my father I was smart enough to become supicious of it. THough for a good 2 years of my life I did foster the idea of the joining the navy. The propaganda is indeed strong. however I came to the conclusion that it would do me no good and is the farthest thing from my mind.

I agree with you, the military "seems" like a good option to working class youths because of the propaganda, and the false dream of a better life. I know many people who joined the military only to fall into the same trap my father did.

[Lardlad95]

I find that the majority of people here are themselves detatched from the working class, capitalist and communist alike. The capitalist says "the working class doesn't know what's best for themsleves so let me profit from this". The communist says "the working class doesn't know what's best for it's self so let me force my ideas upon them".

We've gone a long way from understanding and fighting for the needs of the common man. Instead we patronize and tell them what's good for them.

I come from a working class family. My father was in the military, and through out most of my life we were pisspoor. My entire childhood I was lambasted with patriotic garbage because I attended schools for military children. Fortunately however, having seen the life that the military offered my father I was smart enough to become supicious of it. THough for a good 2 years of my life I did foster the idea of the joining the navy. The propaganda is indeed strong. however I came to the conclusion that it would do me no good and is the farthest thing from my mind.

I agree with you, the military "seems" like a good option to working class youths because of the propaganda, and the false dream of a better life. I know many people who joined the military only to fall into the same trap my father did.

[Urban Rubble]

I don't know what else to say except for good post Celtic. I understand completly, but then again, I'm a member of the working class :lol:

This is why it pains me so bad to see people (like the kids at E-G.com) cheer and applaud when young (perhaps a bit ignorant) working class kids get blown up in Iraq, Vietnam or anywhere else. Any "Marxist" who can find satisfaction is any soldier being killed fails to grasp Marxism. The ruling classes are fighting wars and using the working class as cannon fodder. We should be fighting war, not wars. We should be opposing ruling classes, not working class kids who were duped into serving them.

Actually, would you mind if I posted this over there ? I'll wait for permission.

[Urban Rubble]

I don't know what else to say except for good post Celtic. I understand completly, but then again, I'm a member of the working class :lol:

This is why it pains me so bad to see people (like the kids at E-G.com) cheer and applaud when young (perhaps a bit ignorant) working class kids get blown up in Iraq, Vietnam or anywhere else. Any "Marxist" who can find satisfaction is any soldier being killed fails to grasp Marxism. The ruling classes are fighting wars and using the working class as cannon fodder. We should be fighting war, not wars. We should be opposing ruling classes, not working class kids who were duped into serving them.

Actually, would you mind if I posted this over there ? I'll wait for permission.

[Urban Rubble]

I don't know what else to say except for good post Celtic. I understand completly, but then again, I'm a member of the working class :lol:

This is why it pains me so bad to see people (like the kids at E-G.com) cheer and applaud when young (perhaps a bit ignorant) working class kids get blown up in Iraq, Vietnam or anywhere else. Any "Marxist" who can find satisfaction is any soldier being killed fails to grasp Marxism. The ruling classes are fighting wars and using the working class as cannon fodder. We should be fighting war, not wars. We should be opposing ruling classes, not working class kids who were duped into serving them.

Actually, would you mind if I posted this over there ? I'll wait for permission.

[redstar2000]

The title of this thread -- "Bourgeois Socialists And The Working Class, How can they represent us?" -- is somewhat misleading.

The "answer" is they can't...and few would be tempted to argue otherwise.

The real topic here is what should the attitude of revolutionaries be when some workers do "bad things"?

For example, what about the vast majority of working class kids who don't join the armed forces, who don't become cops or violent criminals or prison guards or scabs or pimps, etc.?

In what crucial way(s) are they somehow "different" from those that do?

When working class or really poor people do "bad things", it's frequently said that "society made them do it" and they "aren't really responsible".

Well, there's a lot of truth to that...capitalism does put a lot of people through such unmitigated hell that they do become monsters themselves -- something that almost certainly wouldn't have happened in a civilized society.

Sure, kids who grow up in military families (or cop families) get a lot of extra psychological conditioning to "prepare" them for those "roles".

And I know the routine that many working class parents go through with their late-teen sons: "make a future for yourself & join the army". Often what they're really saying is "move out of this house!". :lol:

I got that message from my own family, along with "the army will make a man out of you". :lol:

Further, I can see a working class kid, maybe who's pretty bright, stuck in some dead-end job ("McJob" as it's called), saying to himself and even herself "why not join up if it's a way out of this shit?".

And yet, like I say, most kids don't do it. Why not?

Here's a pure guess: in a society where the public status of "worker" is approximately equal to the public status of a piece of shit, many young workers aspire to "rise above that" and some are not "fussy" about how they do it.

It's not difficult to rationalize such a choice; a soldier is "serving his country" and has the possibility of "becoming a hero".

Should he actually experience combat and come through it unscathed, his "public status" rises...as does his image of himself.

So while many working class kids go to community college or become apprentices in a skilled trade or try out for professional sports -- all ways to "move up" out of the shit zone -- some are willing to do much worse things...join armies and police forces, become prison guards, etc.

Is it understandable? Sure.

Is it unforgivable? Well, that depends, doesn't it? What did you do while you were in? What have you done since you got out?


Any "Marxist" who can find satisfaction in any soldier being killed fails to grasp Marxism.

A very odd interpretation of "Marxism".

How do you expect U.S. imperialism to be defeated without killing U.S. soldiers?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

The title of this thread -- "Bourgeois Socialists And The Working Class, How can they represent us?" -- is somewhat misleading.

The "answer" is they can't...and few would be tempted to argue otherwise.

The real topic here is what should the attitude of revolutionaries be when some workers do "bad things"?

For example, what about the vast majority of working class kids who don't join the armed forces, who don't become cops or violent criminals or prison guards or scabs or pimps, etc.?

In what crucial way(s) are they somehow "different" from those that do?

When working class or really poor people do "bad things", it's frequently said that "society made them do it" and they "aren't really responsible".

Well, there's a lot of truth to that...capitalism does put a lot of people through such unmitigated hell that they do become monsters themselves -- something that almost certainly wouldn't have happened in a civilized society.

Sure, kids who grow up in military families (or cop families) get a lot of extra psychological conditioning to "prepare" them for those "roles".

And I know the routine that many working class parents go through with their late-teen sons: "make a future for yourself & join the army". Often what they're really saying is "move out of this house!". :lol:

I got that message from my own family, along with "the army will make a man out of you". :lol:

Further, I can see a working class kid, maybe who's pretty bright, stuck in some dead-end job ("McJob" as it's called), saying to himself and even herself "why not join up if it's a way out of this shit?".

And yet, like I say, most kids don't do it. Why not?

Here's a pure guess: in a society where the public status of "worker" is approximately equal to the public status of a piece of shit, many young workers aspire to "rise above that" and some are not "fussy" about how they do it.

It's not difficult to rationalize such a choice; a soldier is "serving his country" and has the possibility of "becoming a hero".

Should he actually experience combat and come through it unscathed, his "public status" rises...as does his image of himself.

So while many working class kids go to community college or become apprentices in a skilled trade or try out for professional sports -- all ways to "move up" out of the shit zone -- some are willing to do much worse things...join armies and police forces, become prison guards, etc.

Is it understandable? Sure.

Is it unforgivable? Well, that depends, doesn't it? What did you do while you were in? What have you done since you got out?


Any "Marxist" who can find satisfaction in any soldier being killed fails to grasp Marxism.

A very odd interpretation of "Marxism".

How do you expect U.S. imperialism to be defeated without killing U.S. soldiers?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

The title of this thread -- "Bourgeois Socialists And The Working Class, How can they represent us?" -- is somewhat misleading.

The "answer" is they can't...and few would be tempted to argue otherwise.

The real topic here is what should the attitude of revolutionaries be when some workers do "bad things"?

For example, what about the vast majority of working class kids who don't join the armed forces, who don't become cops or violent criminals or prison guards or scabs or pimps, etc.?

In what crucial way(s) are they somehow "different" from those that do?

When working class or really poor people do "bad things", it's frequently said that "society made them do it" and they "aren't really responsible".

Well, there's a lot of truth to that...capitalism does put a lot of people through such unmitigated hell that they do become monsters themselves -- something that almost certainly wouldn't have happened in a civilized society.

Sure, kids who grow up in military families (or cop families) get a lot of extra psychological conditioning to "prepare" them for those "roles".

And I know the routine that many working class parents go through with their late-teen sons: "make a future for yourself & join the army". Often what they're really saying is "move out of this house!". :lol:

I got that message from my own family, along with "the army will make a man out of you". :lol:

Further, I can see a working class kid, maybe who's pretty bright, stuck in some dead-end job ("McJob" as it's called), saying to himself and even herself "why not join up if it's a way out of this shit?".

And yet, like I say, most kids don't do it. Why not?

Here's a pure guess: in a society where the public status of "worker" is approximately equal to the public status of a piece of shit, many young workers aspire to "rise above that" and some are not "fussy" about how they do it.

It's not difficult to rationalize such a choice; a soldier is "serving his country" and has the possibility of "becoming a hero".

Should he actually experience combat and come through it unscathed, his "public status" rises...as does his image of himself.

So while many working class kids go to community college or become apprentices in a skilled trade or try out for professional sports -- all ways to "move up" out of the shit zone -- some are willing to do much worse things...join armies and police forces, become prison guards, etc.

Is it understandable? Sure.

Is it unforgivable? Well, that depends, doesn't it? What did you do while you were in? What have you done since you got out?


Any "Marxist" who can find satisfaction in any soldier being killed fails to grasp Marxism.

A very odd interpretation of "Marxism".

How do you expect U.S. imperialism to be defeated without killing U.S. soldiers?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[RedCeltic]

Actually, would you mind if I posted this over there ? I'll wait for permission.

Sure go for it.


The title of this thread -- "Bourgeois Socialists And The Working Class, How can they represent us?" -- is somewhat misleading.

No it's not, it has everything to do with what I'm talking about. I was told that I have no right to call myself a leftist by someone who quite obviously has no understanding of the working class, the pain and shame that us vets have to live with, nor the growing numbers of vets and active duty personel in Iraq who are against the war.


The real topic here is what should the attitude of revolutionaries be when some workers do "bad things"?

No... because again if you can't understand why people do those things than you are not part of the working class but rather are just another boot on our necks.


When working class or really poor people do "bad things", it's frequently said that "society made them do it" and they "aren't really responsible".

I'm not saying that as a vet I'm not responsible for my actions, that would be a cop out and a lie. Each person that has served has to live with what they had done, and come to terms with it.

I have never, and will never ask for any kind of special treatment as a vet however I will tell you that as someone who has clearly not served in the militery you not pass judgement over something you could never understand.

I don't mean any offence by this, but it's like this... when I decided to join "Vets for Peace"... I told the guy who signed me up that it has taken me 8 years to gather the nerve to do it. It takes courage to be part of such an outfit... why? Because everyone who is part of Vets for Peace is ashamed of being a vet. To put yourself into a label of being not only a vet but a vet for peace is a hard thing. The guy who signed me up... he told me that it took him awile to put his uniform jacket back on. He wanted to wear it but felt it was a disgusting remnant of a tourtured past he would like to forget.

You can't forget really.. you just move on. Most would just like to forget about it.. but how can you really? And how can you live with yourself when there are people out there who are buying into the same lie?

You know who people really need to hate (at least I do) are the "Am-Vets" and the "VFW" they are all just a bunch of pro war fascists with their stupid hats and silly pins.

I also hate (and always have) anyone over the rank of E-4. Those are the people decided to make murder an occupation.

[RedCeltic]

Actually, would you mind if I posted this over there ? I'll wait for permission.

Sure go for it.


The title of this thread -- "Bourgeois Socialists And The Working Class, How can they represent us?" -- is somewhat misleading.

No it's not, it has everything to do with what I'm talking about. I was told that I have no right to call myself a leftist by someone who quite obviously has no understanding of the working class, the pain and shame that us vets have to live with, nor the growing numbers of vets and active duty personel in Iraq who are against the war.


The real topic here is what should the attitude of revolutionaries be when some workers do "bad things"?

No... because again if you can't understand why people do those things than you are not part of the working class but rather are just another boot on our necks.


When working class or really poor people do "bad things", it's frequently said that "society made them do it" and they "aren't really responsible".

I'm not saying that as a vet I'm not responsible for my actions, that would be a cop out and a lie. Each person that has served has to live with what they had done, and come to terms with it.

I have never, and will never ask for any kind of special treatment as a vet however I will tell you that as someone who has clearly not served in the militery you not pass judgement over something you could never understand.

I don't mean any offence by this, but it's like this... when I decided to join "Vets for Peace"... I told the guy who signed me up that it has taken me 8 years to gather the nerve to do it. It takes courage to be part of such an outfit... why? Because everyone who is part of Vets for Peace is ashamed of being a vet. To put yourself into a label of being not only a vet but a vet for peace is a hard thing. The guy who signed me up... he told me that it took him awile to put his uniform jacket back on. He wanted to wear it but felt it was a disgusting remnant of a tourtured past he would like to forget.

You can't forget really.. you just move on. Most would just like to forget about it.. but how can you really? And how can you live with yourself when there are people out there who are buying into the same lie?

You know who people really need to hate (at least I do) are the "Am-Vets" and the "VFW" they are all just a bunch of pro war fascists with their stupid hats and silly pins.

I also hate (and always have) anyone over the rank of E-4. Those are the people decided to make murder an occupation.

[RedCeltic]

Actually, would you mind if I posted this over there ? I'll wait for permission.

Sure go for it.


The title of this thread -- "Bourgeois Socialists And The Working Class, How can they represent us?" -- is somewhat misleading.

No it's not, it has everything to do with what I'm talking about. I was told that I have no right to call myself a leftist by someone who quite obviously has no understanding of the working class, the pain and shame that us vets have to live with, nor the growing numbers of vets and active duty personel in Iraq who are against the war.


The real topic here is what should the attitude of revolutionaries be when some workers do "bad things"?

No... because again if you can't understand why people do those things than you are not part of the working class but rather are just another boot on our necks.


When working class or really poor people do "bad things", it's frequently said that "society made them do it" and they "aren't really responsible".

I'm not saying that as a vet I'm not responsible for my actions, that would be a cop out and a lie. Each person that has served has to live with what they had done, and come to terms with it.

I have never, and will never ask for any kind of special treatment as a vet however I will tell you that as someone who has clearly not served in the militery you not pass judgement over something you could never understand.

I don't mean any offence by this, but it's like this... when I decided to join "Vets for Peace"... I told the guy who signed me up that it has taken me 8 years to gather the nerve to do it. It takes courage to be part of such an outfit... why? Because everyone who is part of Vets for Peace is ashamed of being a vet. To put yourself into a label of being not only a vet but a vet for peace is a hard thing. The guy who signed me up... he told me that it took him awile to put his uniform jacket back on. He wanted to wear it but felt it was a disgusting remnant of a tourtured past he would like to forget.

You can't forget really.. you just move on. Most would just like to forget about it.. but how can you really? And how can you live with yourself when there are people out there who are buying into the same lie?

You know who people really need to hate (at least I do) are the "Am-Vets" and the "VFW" they are all just a bunch of pro war fascists with their stupid hats and silly pins.

I also hate (and always have) anyone over the rank of E-4. Those are the people decided to make murder an occupation.

[redstar2000]

I think this thread is relevant to this discussion...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28753

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

I think this thread is relevant to this discussion...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28753

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

I think this thread is relevant to this discussion...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28753

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Urban Rubble]

A very odd interpretation of "Marxism".

How do you expect U.S. imperialism to be defeated without killing U.S. soldiers?

RedStar, I didn't mean that we should grieve when a soldier dies. What I mean is that as Marxist we should understand that it is the ruling classes that are responsible here, they are the ones starting these wars and giving our kids the chance to sign up and die for them. I don't mean we should be pacifists and let U.S soldiers do what they please, I mean that even if we are forced to kill them we should not take pleasure in their deaths, for they are only pawns in a much larger game.

I guess I should have said "enjoy" rather than "get satisfaction from". I don't want it to seem as if I'm weeping when a U.S soldier is killed, what I mean is that I'm sad he was put into the position of dying in the first place.

[Urban Rubble]

A very odd interpretation of "Marxism".

How do you expect U.S. imperialism to be defeated without killing U.S. soldiers?

RedStar, I didn't mean that we should grieve when a soldier dies. What I mean is that as Marxist we should understand that it is the ruling classes that are responsible here, they are the ones starting these wars and giving our kids the chance to sign up and die for them. I don't mean we should be pacifists and let U.S soldiers do what they please, I mean that even if we are forced to kill them we should not take pleasure in their deaths, for they are only pawns in a much larger game.

I guess I should have said "enjoy" rather than "get satisfaction from". I don't want it to seem as if I'm weeping when a U.S soldier is killed, what I mean is that I'm sad he was put into the position of dying in the first place.

[Urban Rubble]

A very odd interpretation of "Marxism".

How do you expect U.S. imperialism to be defeated without killing U.S. soldiers?

RedStar, I didn't mean that we should grieve when a soldier dies. What I mean is that as Marxist we should understand that it is the ruling classes that are responsible here, they are the ones starting these wars and giving our kids the chance to sign up and die for them. I don't mean we should be pacifists and let U.S soldiers do what they please, I mean that even if we are forced to kill them we should not take pleasure in their deaths, for they are only pawns in a much larger game.

I guess I should have said "enjoy" rather than "get satisfaction from". I don't want it to seem as if I'm weeping when a U.S soldier is killed, what I mean is that I'm sad he was put into the position of dying in the first place.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 09:49 PM
I think this thread is relevant to this discussion...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28753

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
RedStar... with all due respect, I'm having a hard time understanding what that link has to do with what I'm talking about.

Are you calling me "barely literate" or a Mercenary?

It wasn't me who posted that dispite having a degree at SUNY Albany. :)

RedStar... are you trying to tell me that you too do not think that I deserve to be a socialist because I am a Vet? Because that's what this thread it about.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 09:49 PM
I think this thread is relevant to this discussion...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28753

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
RedStar... with all due respect, I'm having a hard time understanding what that link has to do with what I'm talking about.

Are you calling me "barely literate" or a Mercenary?

It wasn't me who posted that dispite having a degree at SUNY Albany. :)

RedStar... are you trying to tell me that you too do not think that I deserve to be a socialist because I am a Vet? Because that's what this thread it about.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 09:49 PM
I think this thread is relevant to this discussion...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28753

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
RedStar... with all due respect, I'm having a hard time understanding what that link has to do with what I'm talking about.

Are you calling me "barely literate" or a Mercenary?

It wasn't me who posted that dispite having a degree at SUNY Albany. :)

RedStar... are you trying to tell me that you too do not think that I deserve to be a socialist because I am a Vet? Because that's what this thread it about.

[DaCuBaN]

Was it not just to point out the 'other' kind of people who get involved in the military?

Personally, I just thought the asshole who posted that shit was a drunken buffoon...

[DaCuBaN]

Was it not just to point out the 'other' kind of people who get involved in the military?

Personally, I just thought the asshole who posted that shit was a drunken buffoon...

[DaCuBaN]

Was it not just to point out the 'other' kind of people who get involved in the military?

Personally, I just thought the asshole who posted that shit was a drunken buffoon...

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:16 PM
Was it not just to point out the 'other' kind of people who get involved in the military?

Personally, I just thought the asshole who posted that shit was a drunken buffoon...
Well, the world's not in short supply of assholes that's for damn sure.

Anyway I really wasn't talking about all that, nor if americans who die in Iraq should be mourned or not... I don't give a crap if go down to Arlington and do a jig.

I'm just saying that people who served know more than anyone else what's wrong with militery service, (or at least they should.) Sure there are alot of people who get out and are like that idiot.. that's why there are stupid groups like the Am-vets and VFW.

I personally realize I made a mistake and think it's important to let people know about it. Others like that idiot think it was great and want to encourage others to be a government slave for 4 years.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:16 PM
Was it not just to point out the 'other' kind of people who get involved in the military?

Personally, I just thought the asshole who posted that shit was a drunken buffoon...
Well, the world's not in short supply of assholes that's for damn sure.

Anyway I really wasn't talking about all that, nor if americans who die in Iraq should be mourned or not... I don't give a crap if go down to Arlington and do a jig.

I'm just saying that people who served know more than anyone else what's wrong with militery service, (or at least they should.) Sure there are alot of people who get out and are like that idiot.. that's why there are stupid groups like the Am-vets and VFW.

I personally realize I made a mistake and think it's important to let people know about it. Others like that idiot think it was great and want to encourage others to be a government slave for 4 years.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:16 PM
Was it not just to point out the 'other' kind of people who get involved in the military?

Personally, I just thought the asshole who posted that shit was a drunken buffoon...
Well, the world's not in short supply of assholes that's for damn sure.

Anyway I really wasn't talking about all that, nor if americans who die in Iraq should be mourned or not... I don't give a crap if go down to Arlington and do a jig.

I'm just saying that people who served know more than anyone else what's wrong with militery service, (or at least they should.) Sure there are alot of people who get out and are like that idiot.. that's why there are stupid groups like the Am-vets and VFW.

I personally realize I made a mistake and think it's important to let people know about it. Others like that idiot think it was great and want to encourage others to be a government slave for 4 years.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 07:26 PM
Well, the world's not in short supply of assholes that's for damn sure.

Anyway I really wasn't talking about all that, nor if americans who die in Iraq should be mourned or not... I don't give a crap if go down to Arlington and do a jig.

I'm just saying that people who served know more than anyone else what's wrong with militery service, (or at least they should.) Sure there are alot of people who get out and are like that idiot.. that's why there are stupid groups like the Am-vets and VFW.

I personally realize I made a mistake and think it's important to let people know about it. Others like that idiot think it was great and want to encourage others to be a government slave for 4 years.
I don't normally like to speak for anyone else, but I think you may be taking what comrade RS is stating a bit too personally.

Usually RS does not need anyone to speak on his behalf but sometimes us old cats need to stick together.

Bring your atterntion to this quote RC;


Is it unforgivable? Well, that depends, doesn't it? What did you do while you were in? What have you done since you got out?

It seems clear to me that RS is not grouping you into the same category as other "vets"; he is merely stating that in order to bring about the conditions necessary for a massive revolution, you must reject ALL forms of bourgeois activity whether they "seem" to help or not.

He also recognises that, like every other scenario, exceptions do indeed exist; mistakes in judgement will enevitably be made.

The fact of the matter is this: no matter what the environmental situation is, there is almost never an excuse to "better your financial situation" by joining an imperialist campaign.

There are however those that make mistakes (like yourself) and attempt to correct those mistakes once they realise them.

Please correct me if I am wrong RS.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 07:26 PM
Well, the world's not in short supply of assholes that's for damn sure.

Anyway I really wasn't talking about all that, nor if americans who die in Iraq should be mourned or not... I don't give a crap if go down to Arlington and do a jig.

I'm just saying that people who served know more than anyone else what's wrong with militery service, (or at least they should.) Sure there are alot of people who get out and are like that idiot.. that's why there are stupid groups like the Am-vets and VFW.

I personally realize I made a mistake and think it's important to let people know about it. Others like that idiot think it was great and want to encourage others to be a government slave for 4 years.
I don't normally like to speak for anyone else, but I think you may be taking what comrade RS is stating a bit too personally.

Usually RS does not need anyone to speak on his behalf but sometimes us old cats need to stick together.

Bring your atterntion to this quote RC;


Is it unforgivable? Well, that depends, doesn't it? What did you do while you were in? What have you done since you got out?

It seems clear to me that RS is not grouping you into the same category as other "vets"; he is merely stating that in order to bring about the conditions necessary for a massive revolution, you must reject ALL forms of bourgeois activity whether they "seem" to help or not.

He also recognises that, like every other scenario, exceptions do indeed exist; mistakes in judgement will enevitably be made.

The fact of the matter is this: no matter what the environmental situation is, there is almost never an excuse to "better your financial situation" by joining an imperialist campaign.

There are however those that make mistakes (like yourself) and attempt to correct those mistakes once they realise them.

Please correct me if I am wrong RS.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 07:26 PM
Well, the world's not in short supply of assholes that's for damn sure.

Anyway I really wasn't talking about all that, nor if americans who die in Iraq should be mourned or not... I don't give a crap if go down to Arlington and do a jig.

I'm just saying that people who served know more than anyone else what's wrong with militery service, (or at least they should.) Sure there are alot of people who get out and are like that idiot.. that's why there are stupid groups like the Am-vets and VFW.

I personally realize I made a mistake and think it's important to let people know about it. Others like that idiot think it was great and want to encourage others to be a government slave for 4 years.
I don't normally like to speak for anyone else, but I think you may be taking what comrade RS is stating a bit too personally.

Usually RS does not need anyone to speak on his behalf but sometimes us old cats need to stick together.

Bring your atterntion to this quote RC;


Is it unforgivable? Well, that depends, doesn't it? What did you do while you were in? What have you done since you got out?

It seems clear to me that RS is not grouping you into the same category as other "vets"; he is merely stating that in order to bring about the conditions necessary for a massive revolution, you must reject ALL forms of bourgeois activity whether they "seem" to help or not.

He also recognises that, like every other scenario, exceptions do indeed exist; mistakes in judgement will enevitably be made.

The fact of the matter is this: no matter what the environmental situation is, there is almost never an excuse to "better your financial situation" by joining an imperialist campaign.

There are however those that make mistakes (like yourself) and attempt to correct those mistakes once they realise them.

Please correct me if I am wrong RS.

[RedCeltic]

It seems clear to me that RS is not grouping you into the same category as other "vets"; he is merely stating that in order to bring about the conditions necessary for a massive revolution, you must reject ALL forms of bourgeois activity whether they "seem" to help or not.

He also recognises that, like every other scenario, exceptions do indeed exist; mistakes in judgement will enevitably be made.

The fact of the matter is this: no matter what the environmental situation is, there is almost never an excuse to "better your financial situation" by joining an imperialist campaign.

There are however those that make mistakes (like yourself) and attempt to correct those mistakes once they realise them.


I must have missed that part, that was much clearer to me thank you Comrade RAF. I suppose he was trying to point out that many (maybe even most) vets are more like that individual in his thread there... and he's probobly right.

[RedCeltic]

It seems clear to me that RS is not grouping you into the same category as other "vets"; he is merely stating that in order to bring about the conditions necessary for a massive revolution, you must reject ALL forms of bourgeois activity whether they "seem" to help or not.

He also recognises that, like every other scenario, exceptions do indeed exist; mistakes in judgement will enevitably be made.

The fact of the matter is this: no matter what the environmental situation is, there is almost never an excuse to "better your financial situation" by joining an imperialist campaign.

There are however those that make mistakes (like yourself) and attempt to correct those mistakes once they realise them.


I must have missed that part, that was much clearer to me thank you Comrade RAF. I suppose he was trying to point out that many (maybe even most) vets are more like that individual in his thread there... and he's probobly right.

[RedCeltic]

It seems clear to me that RS is not grouping you into the same category as other "vets"; he is merely stating that in order to bring about the conditions necessary for a massive revolution, you must reject ALL forms of bourgeois activity whether they "seem" to help or not.

He also recognises that, like every other scenario, exceptions do indeed exist; mistakes in judgement will enevitably be made.

The fact of the matter is this: no matter what the environmental situation is, there is almost never an excuse to "better your financial situation" by joining an imperialist campaign.

There are however those that make mistakes (like yourself) and attempt to correct those mistakes once they realise them.


I must have missed that part, that was much clearer to me thank you Comrade RAF. I suppose he was trying to point out that many (maybe even most) vets are more like that individual in his thread there... and he's probobly right.

[redstar2000]

Thanks, Comrade RAF...you left me with nothing to add. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

Thanks, Comrade RAF...you left me with nothing to add. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

Thanks, Comrade RAF...you left me with nothing to add. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[cubist]

whilst "some good" can come around from representation of working class in a bourgoisie democracy. not a great deal will directly serve the working class, and the interests of the workingf class are only in their own intewrest in order to gain power and money