Let's Get It Straight..

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

In light of the recent hysteria caused by pro-hunt yuppies, I found myself baffled yet again on this seemingly open-shut case of fox-hunting.

Can someone please explain a GOOD reason why men should go out on their horses and train and tell their dogs to savage a fox to shreds?

I may be ignorant and stupid, but I see no good reason for this behaviour. And that's all it is - behaviour. It's not an act, it's not a job or a duty. It is just indecent, dispicable behaviour.

The reasons I have heard are:
i) It is tradition
ii) The dogs will have to be put down as they're trained only for hunting
iii) Fox's are pests for farmers

I will address why I cannot comprehend why these are serious reasons that are being put forward.

i) Tradition? When I heard this I couldn't believe my ears. They are mauling foxes because it is tradition. I'm afraid that is completely barmy. It used to be tradition to go onto the street and slaughter a Welshman in London every now and then, but I don't see that happening. It was traditional to have black slaves. Not any more. In 2004, killing foxes for "tradition" seems very primitive and very disgusting.

ii) This is all the more reason to ban hunting and completely crucify those men and women who are involved in it. The dogs will have to be put down because of THEM, not because of us and MP's fighting to ban this horrible behaviour. If they weren't such vile yuppies, the dogs wouldn't have ever been trained to kill and could've made excellent companions for man. So we blame the yuppies now for hunting. And then once a ban goes through (if it does) we blame them also for the dogs having to be put down.

iii) Pests? It is nature! Cats and seagulls are a pest for my Dad as they scrum through his rubbish, but he can't and wouldn't slay them! We, as humans and as farmers, have the sufficient apparatus to cordon off land which needs to be protected from "pests". I would suggest they sacrifice a bit of money to protect their crops and cattle, not the lives of foxes.


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the reasoning for fox-hunting seems so laughable that I can't believe it is being taken seriously. Fox-hunting needs to be banned NOW. It shouldn't have to wait untill government can be bothered to address it. They've had countless debates on it so they can't use the old "we need time to address more important things" chesnut. It's simple, they need one day to vote, make sure they include the clause whereby the Lords can be overturned if enough MP's vote, pass it to the Lords, get their vote and ban it.

It's an absolute disgrace that this is still allowed to go on.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

In light of the recent hysteria caused by pro-hunt yuppies, I found myself baffled yet again on this seemingly open-shut case of fox-hunting.

Can someone please explain a GOOD reason why men should go out on their horses and train and tell their dogs to savage a fox to shreds?

I may be ignorant and stupid, but I see no good reason for this behaviour. And that's all it is - behaviour. It's not an act, it's not a job or a duty. It is just indecent, dispicable behaviour.

The reasons I have heard are:
i) It is tradition
ii) The dogs will have to be put down as they're trained only for hunting
iii) Fox's are pests for farmers

I will address why I cannot comprehend why these are serious reasons that are being put forward.

i) Tradition? When I heard this I couldn't believe my ears. They are mauling foxes because it is tradition. I'm afraid that is completely barmy. It used to be tradition to go onto the street and slaughter a Welshman in London every now and then, but I don't see that happening. It was traditional to have black slaves. Not any more. In 2004, killing foxes for "tradition" seems very primitive and very disgusting.

ii) This is all the more reason to ban hunting and completely crucify those men and women who are involved in it. The dogs will have to be put down because of THEM, not because of us and MP's fighting to ban this horrible behaviour. If they weren't such vile yuppies, the dogs wouldn't have ever been trained to kill and could've made excellent companions for man. So we blame the yuppies now for hunting. And then once a ban goes through (if it does) we blame them also for the dogs having to be put down.

iii) Pests? It is nature! Cats and seagulls are a pest for my Dad as they scrum through his rubbish, but he can't and wouldn't slay them! We, as humans and as farmers, have the sufficient apparatus to cordon off land which needs to be protected from "pests". I would suggest they sacrifice a bit of money to protect their crops and cattle, not the lives of foxes.


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the reasoning for fox-hunting seems so laughable that I can't believe it is being taken seriously. Fox-hunting needs to be banned NOW. It shouldn't have to wait untill government can be bothered to address it. They've had countless debates on it so they can't use the old "we need time to address more important things" chesnut. It's simple, they need one day to vote, make sure they include the clause whereby the Lords can be overturned if enough MP's vote, pass it to the Lords, get their vote and ban it.

It's an absolute disgrace that this is still allowed to go on.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

In light of the recent hysteria caused by pro-hunt yuppies, I found myself baffled yet again on this seemingly open-shut case of fox-hunting.

Can someone please explain a GOOD reason why men should go out on their horses and train and tell their dogs to savage a fox to shreds?

I may be ignorant and stupid, but I see no good reason for this behaviour. And that's all it is - behaviour. It's not an act, it's not a job or a duty. It is just indecent, dispicable behaviour.

The reasons I have heard are:
i) It is tradition
ii) The dogs will have to be put down as they're trained only for hunting
iii) Fox's are pests for farmers

I will address why I cannot comprehend why these are serious reasons that are being put forward.

i) Tradition? When I heard this I couldn't believe my ears. They are mauling foxes because it is tradition. I'm afraid that is completely barmy. It used to be tradition to go onto the street and slaughter a Welshman in London every now and then, but I don't see that happening. It was traditional to have black slaves. Not any more. In 2004, killing foxes for "tradition" seems very primitive and very disgusting.

ii) This is all the more reason to ban hunting and completely crucify those men and women who are involved in it. The dogs will have to be put down because of THEM, not because of us and MP's fighting to ban this horrible behaviour. If they weren't such vile yuppies, the dogs wouldn't have ever been trained to kill and could've made excellent companions for man. So we blame the yuppies now for hunting. And then once a ban goes through (if it does) we blame them also for the dogs having to be put down.

iii) Pests? It is nature! Cats and seagulls are a pest for my Dad as they scrum through his rubbish, but he can't and wouldn't slay them! We, as humans and as farmers, have the sufficient apparatus to cordon off land which needs to be protected from "pests". I would suggest they sacrifice a bit of money to protect their crops and cattle, not the lives of foxes.


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the reasoning for fox-hunting seems so laughable that I can't believe it is being taken seriously. Fox-hunting needs to be banned NOW. It shouldn't have to wait untill government can be bothered to address it. They've had countless debates on it so they can't use the old "we need time to address more important things" chesnut. It's simple, they need one day to vote, make sure they include the clause whereby the Lords can be overturned if enough MP's vote, pass it to the Lords, get their vote and ban it.

It's an absolute disgrace that this is still allowed to go on.

[h&s]

Well we must think about the thousands of normal, working-class people employed to keep this thing going. The stable-mates, horse groomers, dog-breeders are all normal, working-class people. I know the hunters use this argument without actually giving a shit about the workers, but we should.
(BTW, I'm not advocating anything here, just giving a little balance)

[h&s]

Well we must think about the thousands of normal, working-class people employed to keep this thing going. The stable-mates, horse groomers, dog-breeders are all normal, working-class people. I know the hunters use this argument without actually giving a shit about the workers, but we should.
(BTW, I'm not advocating anything here, just giving a little balance)

[h&s]

Well we must think about the thousands of normal, working-class people employed to keep this thing going. The stable-mates, horse groomers, dog-breeders are all normal, working-class people. I know the hunters use this argument without actually giving a shit about the workers, but we should.
(BTW, I'm not advocating anything here, just giving a little balance)

[NovelGentry]

Furthermore, in all fairness to to government, they probably do have more important issues. This isn't to say they're actually working on TRULY important issues, but they do have MORE important ones.

[NovelGentry]

Furthermore, in all fairness to to government, they probably do have more important issues. This isn't to say they're actually working on TRULY important issues, but they do have MORE important ones.

[NovelGentry]

Furthermore, in all fairness to to government, they probably do have more important issues. This isn't to say they're actually working on TRULY important issues, but they do have MORE important ones.

[h&s]

The thing is that there is talk of Blair doing a U-turn on this. It seems like at the last minute he will add a clause allowing specially certified hunts to go on if the pest problem is especially great. (Just don't tell the backbenchers!)
The funny thing isthough, that over the 200 or so years since the introduction of fox hunting in its current form, biologists have concluded that fox hunting has done absolutly nothing to the size of the general fox population. (Just don't tell the hunters that!)

[h&s]

The thing is that there is talk of Blair doing a U-turn on this. It seems like at the last minute he will add a clause allowing specially certified hunts to go on if the pest problem is especially great. (Just don't tell the backbenchers!)
The funny thing isthough, that over the 200 or so years since the introduction of fox hunting in its current form, biologists have concluded that fox hunting has done absolutly nothing to the size of the general fox population. (Just don't tell the hunters that!)

[h&s]

The thing is that there is talk of Blair doing a U-turn on this. It seems like at the last minute he will add a clause allowing specially certified hunts to go on if the pest problem is especially great. (Just don't tell the backbenchers!)
The funny thing isthough, that over the 200 or so years since the introduction of fox hunting in its current form, biologists have concluded that fox hunting has done absolutly nothing to the size of the general fox population. (Just don't tell the hunters that!)

[monkeydust]

I wholeheartedly agree Socialism o Muerte.

I'd also add a another point onto (ii):

Is it not outrageously hypocritical to condemn the humane death of a few hunting dogs in favour of the grotesque mauling of thousands more foxes? Are foxes worth that much less than the dogs?

And another point (iv):

By banning fox hunting we get to piss off the tories in the countryside, which is always worthwhile. :P

[monkeydust]

I wholeheartedly agree Socialism o Muerte.

I'd also add a another point onto (ii):

Is it not outrageously hypocritical to condemn the humane death of a few hunting dogs in favour of the grotesque mauling of thousands more foxes? Are foxes worth that much less than the dogs?

And another point (iv):

By banning fox hunting we get to piss off the tories in the countryside, which is always worthwhile. :P

[monkeydust]

I wholeheartedly agree Socialism o Muerte.

I'd also add a another point onto (ii):

Is it not outrageously hypocritical to condemn the humane death of a few hunting dogs in favour of the grotesque mauling of thousands more foxes? Are foxes worth that much less than the dogs?

And another point (iv):

By banning fox hunting we get to piss off the tories in the countryside, which is always worthwhile. :P

[redtrigger]

If it has not hurt the fox population, and with all the people employed to keep this kind of operation going, then what is the point of ending it. It sounds to me like a bunch of hippies are just getting riled up about an irrelevant issue. Why not do something worthwhile and protest deforestation or the $300 billion dollars worth of oil contracts that the leaders of the coalition signed to private companies for the development of the oil industry in Iraq after Bush carried out his campaign of Imperial terrorism (BUsh was really the one behind it, but seeing as Blaire is his prison ***** he might as well have)

Second, the dogs don't kill the foxes, they tree them so the hunters can shoot them, it is the same way they coon hunt here in the states.

[redtrigger]

If it has not hurt the fox population, and with all the people employed to keep this kind of operation going, then what is the point of ending it. It sounds to me like a bunch of hippies are just getting riled up about an irrelevant issue. Why not do something worthwhile and protest deforestation or the $300 billion dollars worth of oil contracts that the leaders of the coalition signed to private companies for the development of the oil industry in Iraq after Bush carried out his campaign of Imperial terrorism (BUsh was really the one behind it, but seeing as Blaire is his prison ***** he might as well have)

Second, the dogs don't kill the foxes, they tree them so the hunters can shoot them, it is the same way they coon hunt here in the states.

[redtrigger]

If it has not hurt the fox population, and with all the people employed to keep this kind of operation going, then what is the point of ending it. It sounds to me like a bunch of hippies are just getting riled up about an irrelevant issue. Why not do something worthwhile and protest deforestation or the $300 billion dollars worth of oil contracts that the leaders of the coalition signed to private companies for the development of the oil industry in Iraq after Bush carried out his campaign of Imperial terrorism (BUsh was really the one behind it, but seeing as Blaire is his prison ***** he might as well have)

Second, the dogs don't kill the foxes, they tree them so the hunters can shoot them, it is the same way they coon hunt here in the states.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

redtrigger, I fail to see why you haven't noticed that people ARE protesting, speaking out against and acting against the things you mentioned. But we can't just act against one thing now, can we? You must cater for everyone and everything possible. But, if acting against solely one thing pleases your political conscience then so be it.

Also, I beg to differ. I know people whose families are involved in this hunting and the dogs maul the foxes. I've also heard that this is what happens on the news and on programmes and discussions about fox hunting. I'm sure sometimes it is done the way you speak of too, but there is no set way to hunt the foxes.

Sadly, I think hammer&sickle is right. It seems as though, as usual, one of those magical "U-turns" will be made. There will always be concessions made for people in a government of this sort.

NovelGentry, I'm not denying there are more important issues. But the point of the Parliamentary system and the system of MP's from different departments is so that all issues get dealt with.

Also, I think the point that the fox population has not changed isn't relevant. We don't suggest massacring millions of people in China and India due to overopoulation do we? I know you are just balancing the argument, but still no argument can even seem the slightest bit reasonable for this behaviour.

Got a bit worried when redtrigger spoke of "coon hunting"! I thought "nigger-baiting" was nearly through in the States! It seems as though abbreviations and name-shortening could prove tragically misconstrued between folk of different countries!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

redtrigger, I fail to see why you haven't noticed that people ARE protesting, speaking out against and acting against the things you mentioned. But we can't just act against one thing now, can we? You must cater for everyone and everything possible. But, if acting against solely one thing pleases your political conscience then so be it.

Also, I beg to differ. I know people whose families are involved in this hunting and the dogs maul the foxes. I've also heard that this is what happens on the news and on programmes and discussions about fox hunting. I'm sure sometimes it is done the way you speak of too, but there is no set way to hunt the foxes.

Sadly, I think hammer&sickle is right. It seems as though, as usual, one of those magical "U-turns" will be made. There will always be concessions made for people in a government of this sort.

NovelGentry, I'm not denying there are more important issues. But the point of the Parliamentary system and the system of MP's from different departments is so that all issues get dealt with.

Also, I think the point that the fox population has not changed isn't relevant. We don't suggest massacring millions of people in China and India due to overopoulation do we? I know you are just balancing the argument, but still no argument can even seem the slightest bit reasonable for this behaviour.

Got a bit worried when redtrigger spoke of "coon hunting"! I thought "nigger-baiting" was nearly through in the States! It seems as though abbreviations and name-shortening could prove tragically misconstrued between folk of different countries!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

redtrigger, I fail to see why you haven't noticed that people ARE protesting, speaking out against and acting against the things you mentioned. But we can't just act against one thing now, can we? You must cater for everyone and everything possible. But, if acting against solely one thing pleases your political conscience then so be it.

Also, I beg to differ. I know people whose families are involved in this hunting and the dogs maul the foxes. I've also heard that this is what happens on the news and on programmes and discussions about fox hunting. I'm sure sometimes it is done the way you speak of too, but there is no set way to hunt the foxes.

Sadly, I think hammer&sickle is right. It seems as though, as usual, one of those magical "U-turns" will be made. There will always be concessions made for people in a government of this sort.

NovelGentry, I'm not denying there are more important issues. But the point of the Parliamentary system and the system of MP's from different departments is so that all issues get dealt with.

Also, I think the point that the fox population has not changed isn't relevant. We don't suggest massacring millions of people in China and India due to overopoulation do we? I know you are just balancing the argument, but still no argument can even seem the slightest bit reasonable for this behaviour.

Got a bit worried when redtrigger spoke of "coon hunting"! I thought "nigger-baiting" was nearly through in the States! It seems as though abbreviations and name-shortening could prove tragically misconstrued between folk of different countries!

[Freedom Writer]

For food and survival I could undestand it, but for sports and fun? :angry:

Maybe I'll just start shooting people and then say: "No big deal, this is a human tradition!"

[Freedom Writer]

For food and survival I could undestand it, but for sports and fun? :angry:

Maybe I'll just start shooting people and then say: "No big deal, this is a human tradition!"

[Freedom Writer]

For food and survival I could undestand it, but for sports and fun? :angry:

Maybe I'll just start shooting people and then say: "No big deal, this is a human tradition!"

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Exactly. If they were eating the foxes, I'd have no problem.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Exactly. If they were eating the foxes, I'd have no problem.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Exactly. If they were eating the foxes, I'd have no problem.

[Thomas]

Totally agree, it should be banned.

And what the fuck is the smearing blood on kids faces about, "blooding" them? Wonder what would happen if I killed one of the queens corgies and smeared the blood on my lil sisters face? Everyone would be up in arms because of it!

Sickening the whole thing.

[Thomas]

Totally agree, it should be banned.

And what the fuck is the smearing blood on kids faces about, "blooding" them? Wonder what would happen if I killed one of the queens corgies and smeared the blood on my lil sisters face? Everyone would be up in arms because of it!

Sickening the whole thing.

[Thomas]

Totally agree, it should be banned.

And what the fuck is the smearing blood on kids faces about, "blooding" them? Wonder what would happen if I killed one of the queens corgies and smeared the blood on my lil sisters face? Everyone would be up in arms because of it!

Sickening the whole thing.

[__ca va?]

Well we must think about the thousands of normal, working-class people employed to keep this thing going. The stable-mates, horse groomers, dog-breeders are all normal, working-class people. I know the hunters use this argument without actually giving a shit about the workers, but we should.


Banning fox hunting wouldn't affect these peoples' jobs! Horses are needed for many other things and hunting dogs are needed on other hunts. For example deer or boar which are eaten everywhere so killing them makes some logic instead of killing foxes.


Exactly. If they were eating the foxes, I'd have no problem.
Eating foxes? Err I wouldn't try that one :D


And what the fuck is the smearing blood on kids faces about, "blooding" them?

I haven't heard about that tradition. Could you explain it to me please?

[__ca va?]

Well we must think about the thousands of normal, working-class people employed to keep this thing going. The stable-mates, horse groomers, dog-breeders are all normal, working-class people. I know the hunters use this argument without actually giving a shit about the workers, but we should.


Banning fox hunting wouldn't affect these peoples' jobs! Horses are needed for many other things and hunting dogs are needed on other hunts. For example deer or boar which are eaten everywhere so killing them makes some logic instead of killing foxes.


Exactly. If they were eating the foxes, I'd have no problem.
Eating foxes? Err I wouldn't try that one :D


And what the fuck is the smearing blood on kids faces about, "blooding" them?

I haven't heard about that tradition. Could you explain it to me please?

[__ca va?]

Well we must think about the thousands of normal, working-class people employed to keep this thing going. The stable-mates, horse groomers, dog-breeders are all normal, working-class people. I know the hunters use this argument without actually giving a shit about the workers, but we should.


Banning fox hunting wouldn't affect these peoples' jobs! Horses are needed for many other things and hunting dogs are needed on other hunts. For example deer or boar which are eaten everywhere so killing them makes some logic instead of killing foxes.


Exactly. If they were eating the foxes, I'd have no problem.
Eating foxes? Err I wouldn't try that one :D


And what the fuck is the smearing blood on kids faces about, "blooding" them?

I haven't heard about that tradition. Could you explain it to me please?

[DaCuBaN]

I'll just start shooting people and then say: "No big deal, this is a human tradition!"

You wouldn't be wrong...


Horses are needed for many other things and hunting dogs are needed on other hunts. For example deer or boar which are eaten everywhere so killing them makes some logic instead of killing foxes.

They don't let you do much hunting in these parts at all... It's a tradition that's all but dead, period. Frankly, I'd be more inclined to look at those laws than to be specific, and let labour get away with what is a PR blow against the 'aristocracy'

I'm as sickened by that fact as I am by matter in hand :(

[DaCuBaN]

I'll just start shooting people and then say: "No big deal, this is a human tradition!"

You wouldn't be wrong...


Horses are needed for many other things and hunting dogs are needed on other hunts. For example deer or boar which are eaten everywhere so killing them makes some logic instead of killing foxes.

They don't let you do much hunting in these parts at all... It's a tradition that's all but dead, period. Frankly, I'd be more inclined to look at those laws than to be specific, and let labour get away with what is a PR blow against the 'aristocracy'

I'm as sickened by that fact as I am by matter in hand :(

[DaCuBaN]

I'll just start shooting people and then say: "No big deal, this is a human tradition!"

You wouldn't be wrong...


Horses are needed for many other things and hunting dogs are needed on other hunts. For example deer or boar which are eaten everywhere so killing them makes some logic instead of killing foxes.

They don't let you do much hunting in these parts at all... It's a tradition that's all but dead, period. Frankly, I'd be more inclined to look at those laws than to be specific, and let labour get away with what is a PR blow against the 'aristocracy'

I'm as sickened by that fact as I am by matter in hand :(

[cubist]

heres the fix, shoot the fox it dies its no longer a pest, it doesn't go through the pain of being torn apart and chased for miles only to lose in the end,

i despise the fact that the upper classes feel cheated that we are fed up wit hthe elitist atitudes, it mocks the very concept of democracy if it is not banned,

[h&s]

Here's another idea; why don't these rich landowners actually bother to protect their land from foxes getting to the livestock? Actually stopping the things seems a whole lot easier than chasing individual animals round the country for half a day with a pack of dogs.

[Hate Is Art]

Its the lords who are trying to stop the ban being passed not the Labour Government, I believe Labour are fully behind the banning of hunting.

I love it when the upper classes don't get their own way.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I agree with h&s. Like I said earlier, we are an "advanced" and intelligent species. Advanced enough to have created means by which we can cordon off land. I know foxes can dig, but if you spend the little bit of extra cash on those fences which go further down the ground, it'll be very hard for foxes to dig through.

As for the last post, that's not true at all. You can "believe" all you want but it is simply not true that the Labour government don't want to ban the hunt. My local MP is for hunting and has posted petitions around the area with names of Labour MP's who have joined it already. Even Alun Michael himself isn't really against the hunt, he just needs to make concessions.

And your point that it is just the Lords who want to keep it is wrong too. You should really read on facts rather than speak with these sweeping generalisations. I could name you many of the Lords who have spoken in the House against the hunt.

And don't trivialise the issue by making it just a case of the upper classes not getting their way. You can "love it" all you like, but that is not the point.

[Anarchist Freedom]

I dont understand this what is wrong with hunting leftists always ***** about hunting this hunting that. WTF is the big deal I mean honestly its just an alternative to getting food for yourselves its back to the old ways when you couldnt go to the store to buy a pound of beed but rather had to go kill a deer to eat soo i see nothing wrong with it as long as it isnt for sport....

[h&s]

Eating a fox? have you not read the previous posts? Anyway if you wanted to actually hunt foxes prperly, there are easier ways than sending a pack of dogs after them. I could just fill my dustbin with poisoned meat, and I would probably kill off at least one a week.
Anyways, we just love to piss off rich landowners, which can only ever be a good thing...

[bunk]

then you wouldn't want to eat a poisoned fox though?
I'm against fox hunting, it is wrong!!

[commiecrusader]

I dont understand this what is wrong with hunting leftists always ***** about hunting this hunting that. WTF is the big deal I mean honestly its just an alternative to getting food for yourselves its back to the old ways when you couldnt go to the store to buy a pound of beed but rather had to go kill a deer to eat soo i see nothing wrong with it as long as it isnt for sport....
If you were going to hunt a deer though, would you use dogs and have it ripped to shreds or would you use a gun? I know which I'd used and I'll give you a clue, I dont like picking bits of grass out of minced meat.

Secondly, they view fox hunting as a sport, therefore you should be against fox-hunting. The foxes aren't eaten. They are hunted for the 'fun' of it. It would be just as fun to do a drag hunt, where someone on a horse is dragging a sack with a scent, and the hunt chase that instead. If this was done instead, no-one would lose jobs, there would be no animal cruelty issues, and many people would have no problem with this. And it would be just as fun, except for the fact that the toffs participating get a kick out of killing an innocent creature.

[redtrigger]

Got a bit worried when redtrigger spoke of "coon hunting"! I thought "nigger-baiting" was nearly through in the States! It seems as though abbreviations and name-shortening could prove tragically misconstrued between folk of different countries!

Sorry, I meant raccoon hunting.

Also, to the quote about the dogs being used to something else. The dogs are trained to track the smell of foxes. They could be retrained, but it would take a lot of work, your are better off waiting for the dogs to get too old to hunt and then training their offspring for other game. Second you have bloodlines(genetics), the dogs have been specifically bred to hunt foxes, with dogs exhibiting favorable traits for fox hunting being bred and the others being sterylized. Anyway the dogs have been bred for fox hunting and outside of that task I would assume they would be useless for anything but companionship outside that.