"you Don't Deserve To Live In This Countery"

[RedCeltic]

Yesterday morning, I participated as one of 75 - 100 veterans for peace, protesting against the war and the propaganda of the military outside of the "Pepsi Arena" In Albany NY.

There is a patriotic military band and rifle drill show called "Spirit of America" that is making it's way across the country. Yesterday 18,000 children from all around the upstate NY region were brought out on a field trip and forced to see what basically amounts to an infomercial for the US Army... all paid for with your tax dollars.

So I was there standing with others who had signs saying stuff like, "Propaganda is not education" ... "Teach Peace not war" etc... My sign said, "War is Terrorism with a bigger budget."

Anyway, some old guy came up to me and told me right to my face that I didn't deserve to live in this country. Now, I've heard of the "America Love it or leave it" attitude, and have seen people say such things on the TV but have never had this said right to my face and I got very angry at it...

... I blew up at him, got right into his face and yelled, "I served my country, I gave up four years of it and pledged to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic... Well now I'm here not only exercising those rights I swore to defend, but also defending them from enemies of the Constitution like you!!"

He just got all red in the face and walked away.

Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason? Why do they fail to understand that we will not trade humanity for patriotism? And why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government. After all, it is out of love for the people (which make up the 'country') that we protest the sending of American working people's sons and daughters to go die in the rich man's wars!

[RedCeltic]

Yesterday morning, I participated as one of 75 - 100 veterans for peace, protesting against the war and the propaganda of the military outside of the "Pepsi Arena" In Albany NY.

There is a patriotic military band and rifle drill show called "Spirit of America" that is making it's way across the country. Yesterday 18,000 children from all around the upstate NY region were brought out on a field trip and forced to see what basically amounts to an infomercial for the US Army... all paid for with your tax dollars.

So I was there standing with others who had signs saying stuff like, "Propaganda is not education" ... "Teach Peace not war" etc... My sign said, "War is Terrorism with a bigger budget."

Anyway, some old guy came up to me and told me right to my face that I didn't deserve to live in this country. Now, I've heard of the "America Love it or leave it" attitude, and have seen people say such things on the TV but have never had this said right to my face and I got very angry at it...

... I blew up at him, got right into his face and yelled, "I served my country, I gave up four years of it and pledged to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic... Well now I'm here not only exercising those rights I swore to defend, but also defending them from enemies of the Constitution like you!!"

He just got all red in the face and walked away.

Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason? Why do they fail to understand that we will not trade humanity for patriotism? And why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government. After all, it is out of love for the people (which make up the 'country') that we protest the sending of American working people's sons and daughters to go die in the rich man's wars!

[RedCeltic]

Yesterday morning, I participated as one of 75 - 100 veterans for peace, protesting against the war and the propaganda of the military outside of the "Pepsi Arena" In Albany NY.

There is a patriotic military band and rifle drill show called "Spirit of America" that is making it's way across the country. Yesterday 18,000 children from all around the upstate NY region were brought out on a field trip and forced to see what basically amounts to an infomercial for the US Army... all paid for with your tax dollars.

So I was there standing with others who had signs saying stuff like, "Propaganda is not education" ... "Teach Peace not war" etc... My sign said, "War is Terrorism with a bigger budget."

Anyway, some old guy came up to me and told me right to my face that I didn't deserve to live in this country. Now, I've heard of the "America Love it or leave it" attitude, and have seen people say such things on the TV but have never had this said right to my face and I got very angry at it...

... I blew up at him, got right into his face and yelled, "I served my country, I gave up four years of it and pledged to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic... Well now I'm here not only exercising those rights I swore to defend, but also defending them from enemies of the Constitution like you!!"

He just got all red in the face and walked away.

Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason? Why do they fail to understand that we will not trade humanity for patriotism? And why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government. After all, it is out of love for the people (which make up the 'country') that we protest the sending of American working people's sons and daughters to go die in the rich man's wars!

[DaCuBaN]

Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason?

They've read a history book, and left it at that. I think the quote in my sig sums it up quite well:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it"


Why do they fail to understand that we will not trade humanity for patriotism?

This one is a bit tricker: I sincerely believe that most simply cannot see the difference between them; that all non-americans may as well be non-human. After all, you're the nation that to this day calls immigrants 'aliens'.

Again, a quote from my sig sums this up quite nicely:

"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep"


why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government.

They are under the delusion that their 'representation' is actually sincere - Much like myself with eating meat, I ignore what I am doing and simply get on with it.

As for the 'love it or leave it' attitude, I firmly believe more of you should listen to them: Fuck America. Get the hell out whilst you still can, and try to make a better life elsewhere. I can't think of anywhere on the globe I'd less like to be a leftist. Leave them all to rot.

[DaCuBaN]

Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason?

They've read a history book, and left it at that. I think the quote in my sig sums it up quite well:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it"


Why do they fail to understand that we will not trade humanity for patriotism?

This one is a bit tricker: I sincerely believe that most simply cannot see the difference between them; that all non-americans may as well be non-human. After all, you're the nation that to this day calls immigrants 'aliens'.

Again, a quote from my sig sums this up quite nicely:

"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep"


why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government.

They are under the delusion that their 'representation' is actually sincere - Much like myself with eating meat, I ignore what I am doing and simply get on with it.

As for the 'love it or leave it' attitude, I firmly believe more of you should listen to them: Fuck America. Get the hell out whilst you still can, and try to make a better life elsewhere. I can't think of anywhere on the globe I'd less like to be a leftist. Leave them all to rot.

[DaCuBaN]

Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason?

They've read a history book, and left it at that. I think the quote in my sig sums it up quite well:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it"


Why do they fail to understand that we will not trade humanity for patriotism?

This one is a bit tricker: I sincerely believe that most simply cannot see the difference between them; that all non-americans may as well be non-human. After all, you're the nation that to this day calls immigrants 'aliens'.

Again, a quote from my sig sums this up quite nicely:

"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep"


why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government.

They are under the delusion that their 'representation' is actually sincere - Much like myself with eating meat, I ignore what I am doing and simply get on with it.

As for the 'love it or leave it' attitude, I firmly believe more of you should listen to them: Fuck America. Get the hell out whilst you still can, and try to make a better life elsewhere. I can't think of anywhere on the globe I'd less like to be a leftist. Leave them all to rot.

[Intifada]

A quote from Malcolm X:

You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.

[Intifada]

A quote from Malcolm X:

You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.

[Intifada]

A quote from Malcolm X:

You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.

[Fidelbrand]

Red,

I don't think it is hard for that old guy to understand , just that it is so easy for him to neglect and to despise the passions you guys have for your nation & for the betterment of humanities.

In my country, we have public forums in parks held weekly on Sundays, televised and crowded,discussing socio-economic-political issues. Every week, we have a bunch of old people bringing their speakers, shouting, barking and disturbing the forum when some radicals/democrats speaks. Some said they are paid to do this........

[Fidelbrand]

Red,

I don't think it is hard for that old guy to understand , just that it is so easy for him to neglect and to despise the passions you guys have for your nation & for the betterment of humanities.

In my country, we have public forums in parks held weekly on Sundays, televised and crowded,discussing socio-economic-political issues. Every week, we have a bunch of old people bringing their speakers, shouting, barking and disturbing the forum when some radicals/democrats speaks. Some said they are paid to do this........

[Fidelbrand]

Red,

I don't think it is hard for that old guy to understand , just that it is so easy for him to neglect and to despise the passions you guys have for your nation & for the betterment of humanities.

In my country, we have public forums in parks held weekly on Sundays, televised and crowded,discussing socio-economic-political issues. Every week, we have a bunch of old people bringing their speakers, shouting, barking and disturbing the forum when some radicals/democrats speaks. Some said they are paid to do this........

[redtrigger]

Firs to of all, DaCuban, I love the Douglas Adams quote. To anyone who has not read anything by him I highly recomend it.

Second of all, most of the senior citizens in America grew up in a time when to question the sanctity of the U.S. government was to question God. Though in the Constitution it say separation of church and state, America is a theocracy. These people cannot question the government because it is a question to their faith. This in no way justifies it, but you have to at realize their perspective, to see why they so blindly support whoever leads them.

[redtrigger]

Firs to of all, DaCuban, I love the Douglas Adams quote. To anyone who has not read anything by him I highly recomend it.

Second of all, most of the senior citizens in America grew up in a time when to question the sanctity of the U.S. government was to question God. Though in the Constitution it say separation of church and state, America is a theocracy. These people cannot question the government because it is a question to their faith. This in no way justifies it, but you have to at realize their perspective, to see why they so blindly support whoever leads them.

[redtrigger]

Firs to of all, DaCuban, I love the Douglas Adams quote. To anyone who has not read anything by him I highly recomend it.

Second of all, most of the senior citizens in America grew up in a time when to question the sanctity of the U.S. government was to question God. Though in the Constitution it say separation of church and state, America is a theocracy. These people cannot question the government because it is a question to their faith. This in no way justifies it, but you have to at realize their perspective, to see why they so blindly support whoever leads them.

[The New Yorker]

That man really shouldnt of said that. You have every right to do what you were doing.

Thank you for your service to our country.

this quote somes up why he shouldnt of done it basicly


Noam Chomsky:

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all."


P.S. This whole site could learn from this quote.

[The New Yorker]

That man really shouldnt of said that. You have every right to do what you were doing.

Thank you for your service to our country.

this quote somes up why he shouldnt of done it basicly


Noam Chomsky:

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all."


P.S. This whole site could learn from this quote.

[The New Yorker]

That man really shouldnt of said that. You have every right to do what you were doing.

Thank you for your service to our country.

this quote somes up why he shouldnt of done it basicly


Noam Chomsky:

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all."


P.S. This whole site could learn from this quote.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Red reminds me of a nice little quote of Orwell

http://subvertise.org/details.php?code=568

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Red reminds me of a nice little quote of Orwell

http://subvertise.org/details.php?code=568

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Red reminds me of a nice little quote of Orwell

http://subvertise.org/details.php?code=568

[Lardlad95]

This reminds me of the people who try to tell me that I'm supposed to say the pledge of alligence. This is usually what happens...


Guy: You need to say the pledge, if you don't want to say it than move to another country

Me: or how about you move to a country where they force you to pledge alligence, since you apparently don't respect people's rights not to.


Anyway/... Personally I think people think freedom is just a catchphrase. It doesn't mean anything because they think everyone should be forced to believe what they believe. Freedom has no meaning to them other than a cheap american flag, a Bush in '04 bumper sticker, and Fox News

[Lardlad95]

This reminds me of the people who try to tell me that I'm supposed to say the pledge of alligence. This is usually what happens...


Guy: You need to say the pledge, if you don't want to say it than move to another country

Me: or how about you move to a country where they force you to pledge alligence, since you apparently don't respect people's rights not to.


Anyway/... Personally I think people think freedom is just a catchphrase. It doesn't mean anything because they think everyone should be forced to believe what they believe. Freedom has no meaning to them other than a cheap american flag, a Bush in '04 bumper sticker, and Fox News

[Lardlad95]

This reminds me of the people who try to tell me that I'm supposed to say the pledge of alligence. This is usually what happens...


Guy: You need to say the pledge, if you don't want to say it than move to another country

Me: or how about you move to a country where they force you to pledge alligence, since you apparently don't respect people's rights not to.


Anyway/... Personally I think people think freedom is just a catchphrase. It doesn't mean anything because they think everyone should be forced to believe what they believe. Freedom has no meaning to them other than a cheap american flag, a Bush in '04 bumper sticker, and Fox News

[RedCeltic]

Thanks for all the positive feedback on this... it really got me pissed off yesterday.

I actually went inside today to see what this thing actually was about, and I tell you it is nothing like what was advertised, it was far worse. I had only felt compelled to protest against it because I knew it was produced by the US Army and the place was full of Army and National Guard recruiters.

However I went in and saw part of the show, and was shocked to see machinegun fire, with a live depiction of the Vietnam War, an assertion that back home the country was being hijacked by the anti-war movement and that somehow Vietnam was a just war.

Later as people were leaving a woman came up to a vet for peace in his World War II army uniform and holding a peace flag and told him that she was shocked at the violence. Her 3 year old daughter was crying and the mother said she would have never brought her child to see such a thing if she had known what it really was, and feels the media and the City of Albany had lied to her.

This is an event scheduled to go around the country in hopes to help the US Army obtain their goal of 77,000 more recruits this year... but had been tried out first here in Albany, NY and also in Boston Mass.

[RedCeltic]

Thanks for all the positive feedback on this... it really got me pissed off yesterday.

I actually went inside today to see what this thing actually was about, and I tell you it is nothing like what was advertised, it was far worse. I had only felt compelled to protest against it because I knew it was produced by the US Army and the place was full of Army and National Guard recruiters.

However I went in and saw part of the show, and was shocked to see machinegun fire, with a live depiction of the Vietnam War, an assertion that back home the country was being hijacked by the anti-war movement and that somehow Vietnam was a just war.

Later as people were leaving a woman came up to a vet for peace in his World War II army uniform and holding a peace flag and told him that she was shocked at the violence. Her 3 year old daughter was crying and the mother said she would have never brought her child to see such a thing if she had known what it really was, and feels the media and the City of Albany had lied to her.

This is an event scheduled to go around the country in hopes to help the US Army obtain their goal of 77,000 more recruits this year... but had been tried out first here in Albany, NY and also in Boston Mass.

[RedCeltic]

Thanks for all the positive feedback on this... it really got me pissed off yesterday.

I actually went inside today to see what this thing actually was about, and I tell you it is nothing like what was advertised, it was far worse. I had only felt compelled to protest against it because I knew it was produced by the US Army and the place was full of Army and National Guard recruiters.

However I went in and saw part of the show, and was shocked to see machinegun fire, with a live depiction of the Vietnam War, an assertion that back home the country was being hijacked by the anti-war movement and that somehow Vietnam was a just war.

Later as people were leaving a woman came up to a vet for peace in his World War II army uniform and holding a peace flag and told him that she was shocked at the violence. Her 3 year old daughter was crying and the mother said she would have never brought her child to see such a thing if she had known what it really was, and feels the media and the City of Albany had lied to her.

This is an event scheduled to go around the country in hopes to help the US Army obtain their goal of 77,000 more recruits this year... but had been tried out first here in Albany, NY and also in Boston Mass.

[Anti-Capitalist1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 02:38 PM
Anyway, some old guy came up to me and told me right to my face that I didn't deserve to live in this country.
The most appropriate response is this quote:

"Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." -Frederick Douglass

That old man is the one who doesn't deserve to live in this country.

[Anti-Capitalist1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 02:38 PM
Anyway, some old guy came up to me and told me right to my face that I didn't deserve to live in this country.
The most appropriate response is this quote:

"Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." -Frederick Douglass

That old man is the one who doesn't deserve to live in this country.

[Anti-Capitalist1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 02:38 PM
Anyway, some old guy came up to me and told me right to my face that I didn't deserve to live in this country.
The most appropriate response is this quote:

"Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will." -Frederick Douglass

That old man is the one who doesn't deserve to live in this country.

[cormacobear]

A current front page topic here is a concientious objector fileing for refugee status,
He says I signed up to protect my country not to kill others that pose no threat to us.
I say let him stay mabe it will shock the U.S. into reconsidering their International policy. So if you choose to leave we'd be Glad to have you. :D

But If people like you leave who will change things, who will speak for the abused majority? The greatest hope for a non-violent change in Americas ' Management is men like you, thank you for having the courage to speak out. I know it couldn't have been easy.

[cormacobear]

A current front page topic here is a concientious objector fileing for refugee status,
He says I signed up to protect my country not to kill others that pose no threat to us.
I say let him stay mabe it will shock the U.S. into reconsidering their International policy. So if you choose to leave we'd be Glad to have you. :D

But If people like you leave who will change things, who will speak for the abused majority? The greatest hope for a non-violent change in Americas ' Management is men like you, thank you for having the courage to speak out. I know it couldn't have been easy.

[cormacobear]

A current front page topic here is a concientious objector fileing for refugee status,
He says I signed up to protect my country not to kill others that pose no threat to us.
I say let him stay mabe it will shock the U.S. into reconsidering their International policy. So if you choose to leave we'd be Glad to have you. :D

But If people like you leave who will change things, who will speak for the abused majority? The greatest hope for a non-violent change in Americas ' Management is men like you, thank you for having the courage to speak out. I know it couldn't have been easy.

[NovelGentry]

I have to agree with this old man -- No one deserves to live in a place where we're attacked (verbally or otherwise) for our opinion.

[NovelGentry]

I have to agree with this old man -- No one deserves to live in a place where we're attacked (verbally or otherwise) for our opinion.

[NovelGentry]

I have to agree with this old man -- No one deserves to live in a place where we're attacked (verbally or otherwise) for our opinion.

[cormacobear]

so you don't beleive in the publics right to descent?

[cormacobear]

so you don't beleive in the publics right to descent?

[cormacobear]

so you don't beleive in the publics right to descent?

[NovelGentry]

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that no one deserves this, we all deserve better. I'm trying to take what he said and use it in a different context. Apparently no one caught on.

[NovelGentry]

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that no one deserves this, we all deserve better. I'm trying to take what he said and use it in a different context. Apparently no one caught on.

[NovelGentry]

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that no one deserves this, we all deserve better. I'm trying to take what he said and use it in a different context. Apparently no one caught on.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:02 PM
I have to agree with this old man -- No one deserves to live in a place where we're attacked (verbally or otherwise) for our opinion.
No one is attacking the old man for his opinions, instead he is attacking others for loving their country in a not so conventional way. :rolleyes:

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:02 PM
I have to agree with this old man -- No one deserves to live in a place where we're attacked (verbally or otherwise) for our opinion.
No one is attacking the old man for his opinions, instead he is attacking others for loving their country in a not so conventional way. :rolleyes:

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Novel[email protected] 26 2004, 02:02 PM
I have to agree with this old man -- No one deserves to live in a place where we're attacked (verbally or otherwise) for our opinion.
No one is attacking the old man for his opinions, instead he is attacking others for loving their country in a not so conventional way. :rolleyes:

[RedCeltic]

That old man is the one who doesn't deserve to live in this country.

In the old days of the cold war, many would have said that someone like that would feel more at home in the Soviet Union.

Than you could point to the handful of peaceful protesters in 1968 who were hauled off to a KGB jail for demonstrating against the Soviet invasion of Czechlaslovokia

... however just a few weeks ago the US surpassed the Soviet Union in stifling freedom of speech when somewhere between 1700 to 2000 peaceful protesters were arrested in New York City and held for 48 - 60 hours (without charges) for doing nothing more than walking down the sidewalk.

You know a friend of mine has a sign in his window of bombs being dropped and it says, "Do not become the enemy in which you hate..." and I think it's very true. You know in the second world war, people were outraged at how Hitler bombed London, the bombing of civilian targets was so atrocious that practically every American saw us entering WWII as justified... latter however the US themselves bombed civilian cities in Germany, and naturally still holds the record for being the only nation to use Atomic weapons on a population. (Japan)

That's ok however according to these people, and if you don't like it you might as well move to "Communist Canada" which apparently is falling apart at the seems and still only exists out of the good will of the United States. (That's what the American Nationalists will tell you at any rate)...

P.S. I figure from now on I'll call "Patriots" Nationalists, after all that's what they really are.

[RedCeltic]

That old man is the one who doesn't deserve to live in this country.

In the old days of the cold war, many would have said that someone like that would feel more at home in the Soviet Union.

Than you could point to the handful of peaceful protesters in 1968 who were hauled off to a KGB jail for demonstrating against the Soviet invasion of Czechlaslovokia

... however just a few weeks ago the US surpassed the Soviet Union in stifling freedom of speech when somewhere between 1700 to 2000 peaceful protesters were arrested in New York City and held for 48 - 60 hours (without charges) for doing nothing more than walking down the sidewalk.

You know a friend of mine has a sign in his window of bombs being dropped and it says, "Do not become the enemy in which you hate..." and I think it's very true. You know in the second world war, people were outraged at how Hitler bombed London, the bombing of civilian targets was so atrocious that practically every American saw us entering WWII as justified... latter however the US themselves bombed civilian cities in Germany, and naturally still holds the record for being the only nation to use Atomic weapons on a population. (Japan)

That's ok however according to these people, and if you don't like it you might as well move to "Communist Canada" which apparently is falling apart at the seems and still only exists out of the good will of the United States. (That's what the American Nationalists will tell you at any rate)...

P.S. I figure from now on I'll call "Patriots" Nationalists, after all that's what they really are.

[RedCeltic]

That old man is the one who doesn't deserve to live in this country.

In the old days of the cold war, many would have said that someone like that would feel more at home in the Soviet Union.

Than you could point to the handful of peaceful protesters in 1968 who were hauled off to a KGB jail for demonstrating against the Soviet invasion of Czechlaslovokia

... however just a few weeks ago the US surpassed the Soviet Union in stifling freedom of speech when somewhere between 1700 to 2000 peaceful protesters were arrested in New York City and held for 48 - 60 hours (without charges) for doing nothing more than walking down the sidewalk.

You know a friend of mine has a sign in his window of bombs being dropped and it says, "Do not become the enemy in which you hate..." and I think it's very true. You know in the second world war, people were outraged at how Hitler bombed London, the bombing of civilian targets was so atrocious that practically every American saw us entering WWII as justified... latter however the US themselves bombed civilian cities in Germany, and naturally still holds the record for being the only nation to use Atomic weapons on a population. (Japan)

That's ok however according to these people, and if you don't like it you might as well move to "Communist Canada" which apparently is falling apart at the seems and still only exists out of the good will of the United States. (That's what the American Nationalists will tell you at any rate)...

P.S. I figure from now on I'll call "Patriots" Nationalists, after all that's what they really are.

[NovelGentry]

No one is attacking the old man for his opinions, instead he is attacking others for loving their country in a not so conventional way.

Once again you've misunderstood what I've said. I'm not saying we're attacking the old man, I'm saying the old man was attacking the original poster, and in such a case the original poster does not deserve to live iin a country where this is rampant. The original poster deserves BETTER!

[NovelGentry]

No one is attacking the old man for his opinions, instead he is attacking others for loving their country in a not so conventional way.

Once again you've misunderstood what I've said. I'm not saying we're attacking the old man, I'm saying the old man was attacking the original poster, and in such a case the original poster does not deserve to live iin a country where this is rampant. The original poster deserves BETTER!

[NovelGentry]

No one is attacking the old man for his opinions, instead he is attacking others for loving their country in a not so conventional way.

Once again you've misunderstood what I've said. I'm not saying we're attacking the old man, I'm saying the old man was attacking the original poster, and in such a case the original poster does not deserve to live iin a country where this is rampant. The original poster deserves BETTER!

[commiecrusader]

If everyone had views like that, the U.$. would be the same as Nazi Germany, but discriminating on political rather than race grounds.

[commiecrusader]

If everyone had views like that, the U.$. would be the same as Nazi Germany, but discriminating on political rather than race grounds.

[commiecrusader]

If everyone had views like that, the U.$. would be the same as Nazi Germany, but discriminating on political rather than race grounds.

[redtrigger]

In response to the post aqbout WWII, when Germany bombed London and other cities, it was not because of the civilians, that was a bonus. The real targets were the war factories. Bombing the entire city was more ofg a decision like "while we're here might as well" When the U.S. bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki there were no war targets, they hit the cities which were accessible and had the highest population. There is another instance of bombing by the U.S. on strictly civilian targets. In Germany, I can't remember the name of the city but it was more or less a retirment community. There were no brick buildings, everything was wood buildings with old style wood shingling. And you know what kind of bombs they used... firebombs, gauranteed to erase the city form the earth. A city full of senior citizens and farmers were burned to the ground. There were no military targets, not even so much as a standing garrison or even a patrol.

As I said before about the old man, he probably grew up in the time period when God and Country were one and the same. In many ways this is still true, America could be considered a theocracy, especially in the deep south.

[redtrigger]

In response to the post aqbout WWII, when Germany bombed London and other cities, it was not because of the civilians, that was a bonus. The real targets were the war factories. Bombing the entire city was more ofg a decision like "while we're here might as well" When the U.S. bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki there were no war targets, they hit the cities which were accessible and had the highest population. There is another instance of bombing by the U.S. on strictly civilian targets. In Germany, I can't remember the name of the city but it was more or less a retirment community. There were no brick buildings, everything was wood buildings with old style wood shingling. And you know what kind of bombs they used... firebombs, gauranteed to erase the city form the earth. A city full of senior citizens and farmers were burned to the ground. There were no military targets, not even so much as a standing garrison or even a patrol.

As I said before about the old man, he probably grew up in the time period when God and Country were one and the same. In many ways this is still true, America could be considered a theocracy, especially in the deep south.

[redtrigger]

In response to the post aqbout WWII, when Germany bombed London and other cities, it was not because of the civilians, that was a bonus. The real targets were the war factories. Bombing the entire city was more ofg a decision like "while we're here might as well" When the U.S. bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki there were no war targets, they hit the cities which were accessible and had the highest population. There is another instance of bombing by the U.S. on strictly civilian targets. In Germany, I can't remember the name of the city but it was more or less a retirment community. There were no brick buildings, everything was wood buildings with old style wood shingling. And you know what kind of bombs they used... firebombs, gauranteed to erase the city form the earth. A city full of senior citizens and farmers were burned to the ground. There were no military targets, not even so much as a standing garrison or even a patrol.

As I said before about the old man, he probably grew up in the time period when God and Country were one and the same. In many ways this is still true, America could be considered a theocracy, especially in the deep south.

[Subversive Pessimist]

Yesterday morning, I participated as one of 75 - 100 veterans for peace, protesting against the war and the propaganda of the military outside of the "Pepsi Arena" In Albany NY.

... I blew up at him, got right into his face and yelled, "I served my country, I gave up four years of it and pledged to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic... Well now I'm here not only exercising those rights I swore to defend, but also defending them from enemies of the Constitution like you!!"



When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.

[Subversive Pessimist]

Yesterday morning, I participated as one of 75 - 100 veterans for peace, protesting against the war and the propaganda of the military outside of the "Pepsi Arena" In Albany NY.

... I blew up at him, got right into his face and yelled, "I served my country, I gave up four years of it and pledged to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic... Well now I'm here not only exercising those rights I swore to defend, but also defending them from enemies of the Constitution like you!!"



When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.

[Subversive Pessimist]

Yesterday morning, I participated as one of 75 - 100 veterans for peace, protesting against the war and the propaganda of the military outside of the "Pepsi Arena" In Albany NY.

... I blew up at him, got right into his face and yelled, "I served my country, I gave up four years of it and pledged to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic... Well now I'm here not only exercising those rights I swore to defend, but also defending them from enemies of the Constitution like you!!"



When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.

[RedCeltic]

When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.


You are obviously a person who has alot to learn about the reasons people join the US Militery. I've mentioned my militery service many times on this forum and have also made it perfectly clear that as a Vet I make an effort to try and tell poor kids that they do not have to throw four years of their life away for college money. That's exactly what I did and it was a mistake.

I joined the US Navy in 1992 and served four years in it honorably dispite it being more like a prison sentance than anything else and I had realized I made a mistake very quickly. That's not uncommon, back then when I was in the service, about 60% of the people in the service if asked if they would have joined knowing what they know now would say no... I suspect that today it's more like 80%.

I am called "Red Celtic" Because I am a socialist, I am against the system and the government in which I served... and also it was only after me entering the workforce that I had developed a first hand experience as to the failure of the capistalist system to meet the needs of the working class.

Now, if you are still unable to put your rhretoric aside and realize why many poor people join the US Militery and buy the lies they are force fed than I think it is you and not I who has no place in a leftist community since you have obviously no way of relating to real working class people such as myself.

[RedCeltic]

When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.


You are obviously a person who has alot to learn about the reasons people join the US Militery. I've mentioned my militery service many times on this forum and have also made it perfectly clear that as a Vet I make an effort to try and tell poor kids that they do not have to throw four years of their life away for college money. That's exactly what I did and it was a mistake.

I joined the US Navy in 1992 and served four years in it honorably dispite it being more like a prison sentance than anything else and I had realized I made a mistake very quickly. That's not uncommon, back then when I was in the service, about 60% of the people in the service if asked if they would have joined knowing what they know now would say no... I suspect that today it's more like 80%.

I am called "Red Celtic" Because I am a socialist, I am against the system and the government in which I served... and also it was only after me entering the workforce that I had developed a first hand experience as to the failure of the capistalist system to meet the needs of the working class.

Now, if you are still unable to put your rhretoric aside and realize why many poor people join the US Militery and buy the lies they are force fed than I think it is you and not I who has no place in a leftist community since you have obviously no way of relating to real working class people such as myself.

[RedCeltic]

When, and why did you serve that country? Where? Vietnam? If that's so, why are your nick "RED Celtic". Why are you on a leftist forum, when you served that country for four years? Nothing personal, just curious.


You are obviously a person who has alot to learn about the reasons people join the US Militery. I've mentioned my militery service many times on this forum and have also made it perfectly clear that as a Vet I make an effort to try and tell poor kids that they do not have to throw four years of their life away for college money. That's exactly what I did and it was a mistake.

I joined the US Navy in 1992 and served four years in it honorably dispite it being more like a prison sentance than anything else and I had realized I made a mistake very quickly. That's not uncommon, back then when I was in the service, about 60% of the people in the service if asked if they would have joined knowing what they know now would say no... I suspect that today it's more like 80%.

I am called "Red Celtic" Because I am a socialist, I am against the system and the government in which I served... and also it was only after me entering the workforce that I had developed a first hand experience as to the failure of the capistalist system to meet the needs of the working class.

Now, if you are still unable to put your rhretoric aside and realize why many poor people join the US Militery and buy the lies they are force fed than I think it is you and not I who has no place in a leftist community since you have obviously no way of relating to real working class people such as myself.

[Sabocat]

RC, with regards to that Army infomercial, this article appeared in a recent Workers World issue. The "Spirit of America" tour came to a city near me. Worcester was once an industrial hub in Massachusetts, but over the last 10-15 years, the industrial manufacturing base has all but disappeared.

The U.S. Army bringing this "road show" to Worcester, shows the Army's truly predatory mindset.

Youth protesters: 'Union jobs, not poverty draft!"
By Bryan G. Pfeifer
Worcester, Mass.

The city of Worcester welcomed the Army with open arms when it arrived to recruit youths and students en masse through its "Sprit of America" road show spectacle Sept. 10-11. The show glorifies imperialist plunder, from Native people in North America to the current occupation of Iraq, using patriotic multi-media theater techniques.

About 400 soldiers--members of the U.S. Army's "elite" ceremonial units, the 3rd Infantry Regiment and the U.S. Army Band--participated in the two-hour show, twice a day. Thousands of people came from throughout the Northeast.

Many attendees were elementary- and high-school-aged students who had been given free tickets and a day off school Sept. 10 by Worcester's school administration. Some news reports estimated that as many as 10,000 students attended the morning show.

According to Worcester School Committee member Joseph C. O'Brien, the administration has denied requests for students to attend an anti-war teach-in and an educational event celebrating the day same-sex marriage became legal in Massachusetts. In an open letter to the Worcester School Committee, O'Brien wrote: "So, let's get this straight. If you want to go on a trip to learn about peaceful alternatives to war run by academics, or if you want to take part in activities centered around a historic day in the community's struggle for Civil Rights, you can't go. But if you want to go to a pro-military rally run by the Department of Defense, take the whole school day. This is simply wrong."

Before and after being subjected to the "Spirit of America's" jingoist, racist, super- aggressive, heterosexist, misogynist and patriarchal show, students were preyed upon by Army Junior Reserve Officer Train ing Corps officers attempting to recruit them. Officers obtained students' contact information and took pictures of them.

But progressive and revolutionary students and their allies fought back. Armed with counter-recruiting literature, banners and placards declaring, "War is not entertainment," "Bring the troops home now" and other slogans, dozens of protesters stood their ground despite intimidation by Army personnel and chauvinists.

"I don't think it's acceptable to have students take a field trip and miss class time to watch, essentially, a recruitment spectacle," said student organizer Chris Caesar.

Alex Gould, member of the youth/student organization FIST--Fight Imperialism Stand Together--and Food and Commercial Workers Local 328 in Providence, R.I., agreed. "This macabre extravaganza recruitment tour should settle the issue for our generation once and for all--that the system of imperialism has nothing to offer the youth, even in the United States."

War on youth/students

A working-class city with a long history of union and other progressive struggles, Worcester is the third-biggest city in New England, with a population of 172,000 of whom 30 percent are oppressed people and 35 percent are under the age of 24, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Instead of building jobs-creation and other social-service programs for youths and students affected by de-industrialization and the scientific-technological revolution, the city's ruling class, like others across the country, is sacrificing them to the poverty draft.

According to the United States Army Junior ROTC website, JROTC is "a continuing success story." Of course it doesn't specify for whom.

JROTC came into being with the passage of the National Defense Act of 1916. Under the act's provisions, high schools were loaned federal military equipment and assigned active-duty military personnel as instructors.

From six units in 1916, JROTC has expanded to 1,555 schools today, the larg est of the "armed forces" reserve units. JROTC exists in every state in the United States--and in countries with a U.S. military presence, including Guam, Germany and South Korea.

Currently, some 300,000 high school students aged 13-18 are taught by 3,900 active duty Army retirees.

In 1992, after the Los Angeles rebellion when the racist police who beat Black motorist Rodney King were acquitted of all charges, President George H.W. Bush responded by pushing an initiative to double the number of JROTC programs from 1,500 to 3,000. Now, in the absence of a draft, President George W. Bush is continuing the expansion. In 2002 he oversaw the passage of the Defense Authorization Bill, which removed the 1992 federal limit of 3,500 JROTC programs.

The Congressional Budget Office expects the number of JROTC units to surpass 3,500 by next year.

Nationally oppressed students are a particular target of recruiters, according to a 1999 report titled "Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps: Contributions to America's Communities," published by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, an imperialist think tank.

In the academic year 1995-1996, African American students made up approximately 15 percent of the U.S. high school population. But African American JROTC enrollment rose from 25 percent in 1994-95 to 33 percent in 1996-97. The increase continues.

Similar statistics reveal the same pattern for [email protected] and other oppressed students. And although the report claims percentages of white recruiting have stabilized or are decreasing, the Pentagon also preys on disaffected white youths in working-class communities like Worcester.

The Army is stepping up more sophisticated marketing such as using hip-hop music, multi-media techniques and free-giveaway gimmicks to recruit. "The hip-hop market has a vast fan base," said Col. Thomas Nickerson, the Army's national advertising director, in an October 2003 Newsweek interview.

But, as proven at the protests against the Democratic and Republican conventions and elsewhere, there's also a big, growing movement of multi-national youths and students fighting back.

Gould concluded: "We've got to help other young people see through the lies now and organize against this recruitment because if the war makers don't snare enough of us with this they're coming after us with the draft next. Now's the time to fight back! Union yes, war no!"

Youths and students will have a few major opportunities to fight back in the coming weeks.

The "Spirit of America" will roll through Washington, D.C.'s MCI Center, 601 F Street, NW, Sept. 17-18 (www.mcicenter.com) and Albany, New York's Pepsi Arena, 51 South Pearl Street Albany, Sept. 24-25 (www.pepsiarena.com).

The Million Worker March will also have a youth/student contingent. See: www.millionworkermarch.org.

For more information and resources on counter-recruiting and the G.I. resistance movement see: www.join-snafu.org and www.nodraftnoway.org.


Link (http://www.workers.org/ww/2004/worcester0923.php)

[Sabocat]

RC, with regards to that Army infomercial, this article appeared in a recent Workers World issue. The "Spirit of America" tour came to a city near me. Worcester was once an industrial hub in Massachusetts, but over the last 10-15 years, the industrial manufacturing base has all but disappeared.

The U.S. Army bringing this "road show" to Worcester, shows the Army's truly predatory mindset.

Youth protesters: 'Union jobs, not poverty draft!"
By Bryan G. Pfeifer
Worcester, Mass.

The city of Worcester welcomed the Army with open arms when it arrived to recruit youths and students en masse through its "Sprit of America" road show spectacle Sept. 10-11. The show glorifies imperialist plunder, from Native people in North America to the current occupation of Iraq, using patriotic multi-media theater techniques.

About 400 soldiers--members of the U.S. Army's "elite" ceremonial units, the 3rd Infantry Regiment and the U.S. Army Band--participated in the two-hour show, twice a day. Thousands of people came from throughout the Northeast.

Many attendees were elementary- and high-school-aged students who had been given free tickets and a day off school Sept. 10 by Worcester's school administration. Some news reports estimated that as many as 10,000 students attended the morning show.

According to Worcester School Committee member Joseph C. O'Brien, the administration has denied requests for students to attend an anti-war teach-in and an educational event celebrating the day same-sex marriage became legal in Massachusetts. In an open letter to the Worcester School Committee, O'Brien wrote: "So, let's get this straight. If you want to go on a trip to learn about peaceful alternatives to war run by academics, or if you want to take part in activities centered around a historic day in the community's struggle for Civil Rights, you can't go. But if you want to go to a pro-military rally run by the Department of Defense, take the whole school day. This is simply wrong."

Before and after being subjected to the "Spirit of America's" jingoist, racist, super- aggressive, heterosexist, misogynist and patriarchal show, students were preyed upon by Army Junior Reserve Officer Train ing Corps officers attempting to recruit them. Officers obtained students' contact information and took pictures of them.

But progressive and revolutionary students and their allies fought back. Armed with counter-recruiting literature, banners and placards declaring, "War is not entertainment," "Bring the troops home now" and other slogans, dozens of protesters stood their ground despite intimidation by Army personnel and chauvinists.

"I don't think it's acceptable to have students take a field trip and miss class time to watch, essentially, a recruitment spectacle," said student organizer Chris Caesar.

Alex Gould, member of the youth/student organization FIST--Fight Imperialism Stand Together--and Food and Commercial Workers Local 328 in Providence, R.I., agreed. "This macabre extravaganza recruitment tour should settle the issue for our generation once and for all--that the system of imperialism has nothing to offer the youth, even in the United States."

War on youth/students

A working-class city with a long history of union and other progressive struggles, Worcester is the third-biggest city in New England, with a population of 172,000 of whom 30 percent are oppressed people and 35 percent are under the age of 24, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Instead of building jobs-creation and other social-service programs for youths and students affected by de-industrialization and the scientific-technological revolution, the city's ruling class, like others across the country, is sacrificing them to the poverty draft.

According to the United States Army Junior ROTC website, JROTC is "a continuing success story." Of course it doesn't specify for whom.

JROTC came into being with the passage of the National Defense Act of 1916. Under the act's provisions, high schools were loaned federal military equipment and assigned active-duty military personnel as instructors.

From six units in 1916, JROTC has expanded to 1,555 schools today, the larg est of the "armed forces" reserve units. JROTC exists in every state in the United States--and in countries with a U.S. military presence, including Guam, Germany and South Korea.

Currently, some 300,000 high school students aged 13-18 are taught by 3,900 active duty Army retirees.

In 1992, after the Los Angeles rebellion when the racist police who beat Black motorist Rodney King were acquitted of all charges, President George H.W. Bush responded by pushing an initiative to double the number of JROTC programs from 1,500 to 3,000. Now, in the absence of a draft, President George W. Bush is continuing the expansion. In 2002 he oversaw the passage of the Defense Authorization Bill, which removed the 1992 federal limit of 3,500 JROTC programs.

The Congressional Budget Office expects the number of JROTC units to surpass 3,500 by next year.

Nationally oppressed students are a particular target of recruiters, according to a 1999 report titled "Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps: Contributions to America's Communities," published by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, an imperialist think tank.

In the academic year 1995-1996, African American students made up approximately 15 percent of the U.S. high school population. But African American JROTC enrollment rose from 25 percent in 1994-95 to 33 percent in 1996-97. The increase continues.

Similar statistics reveal the same pattern for [email protected] and other oppressed students. And although the report claims percentages of white recruiting have stabilized or are decreasing, the Pentagon also preys on disaffected white youths in working-class communities like Worcester.

The Army is stepping up more sophisticated marketing such as using hip-hop music, multi-media techniques and free-giveaway gimmicks to recruit. "The hip-hop market has a vast fan base," said Col. Thomas Nickerson, the Army's national advertising director, in an October 2003 Newsweek interview.

But, as proven at the protests against the Democratic and Republican conventions and elsewhere, there's also a big, growing movement of multi-national youths and students fighting back.

Gould concluded: "We've got to help other young people see through the lies now and organize against this recruitment because if the war makers don't snare enough of us with this they're coming after us with the draft next. Now's the time to fight back! Union yes, war no!"

Youths and students will have a few major opportunities to fight back in the coming weeks.

The "Spirit of America" will roll through Washington, D.C.'s MCI Center, 601 F Street, NW, Sept. 17-18 (www.mcicenter.com) and Albany, New York's Pepsi Arena, 51 South Pearl Street Albany, Sept. 24-25 (www.pepsiarena.com).

The Million Worker March will also have a youth/student contingent. See: www.millionworkermarch.org.

For more information and resources on counter-recruiting and the G.I. resistance movement see: www.join-snafu.org and www.nodraftnoway.org.


Link (http://www.workers.org/ww/2004/worcester0923.php)

[Sabocat]

RC, with regards to that Army infomercial, this article appeared in a recent Workers World issue. The "Spirit of America" tour came to a city near me. Worcester was once an industrial hub in Massachusetts, but over the last 10-15 years, the industrial manufacturing base has all but disappeared.

The U.S. Army bringing this "road show" to Worcester, shows the Army's truly predatory mindset.

Youth protesters: 'Union jobs, not poverty draft!"
By Bryan G. Pfeifer
Worcester, Mass.

The city of Worcester welcomed the Army with open arms when it arrived to recruit youths and students en masse through its "Sprit of America" road show spectacle Sept. 10-11. The show glorifies imperialist plunder, from Native people in North America to the current occupation of Iraq, using patriotic multi-media theater techniques.

About 400 soldiers--members of the U.S. Army's "elite" ceremonial units, the 3rd Infantry Regiment and the U.S. Army Band--participated in the two-hour show, twice a day. Thousands of people came from throughout the Northeast.

Many attendees were elementary- and high-school-aged students who had been given free tickets and a day off school Sept. 10 by Worcester's school administration. Some news reports estimated that as many as 10,000 students attended the morning show.

According to Worcester School Committee member Joseph C. O'Brien, the administration has denied requests for students to attend an anti-war teach-in and an educational event celebrating the day same-sex marriage became legal in Massachusetts. In an open letter to the Worcester School Committee, O'Brien wrote: "So, let's get this straight. If you want to go on a trip to learn about peaceful alternatives to war run by academics, or if you want to take part in activities centered around a historic day in the community's struggle for Civil Rights, you can't go. But if you want to go to a pro-military rally run by the Department of Defense, take the whole school day. This is simply wrong."

Before and after being subjected to the "Spirit of America's" jingoist, racist, super- aggressive, heterosexist, misogynist and patriarchal show, students were preyed upon by Army Junior Reserve Officer Train ing Corps officers attempting to recruit them. Officers obtained students' contact information and took pictures of them.

But progressive and revolutionary students and their allies fought back. Armed with counter-recruiting literature, banners and placards declaring, "War is not entertainment," "Bring the troops home now" and other slogans, dozens of protesters stood their ground despite intimidation by Army personnel and chauvinists.

"I don't think it's acceptable to have students take a field trip and miss class time to watch, essentially, a recruitment spectacle," said student organizer Chris Caesar.

Alex Gould, member of the youth/student organization FIST--Fight Imperialism Stand Together--and Food and Commercial Workers Local 328 in Providence, R.I., agreed. "This macabre extravaganza recruitment tour should settle the issue for our generation once and for all--that the system of imperialism has nothing to offer the youth, even in the United States."

War on youth/students

A working-class city with a long history of union and other progressive struggles, Worcester is the third-biggest city in New England, with a population of 172,000 of whom 30 percent are oppressed people and 35 percent are under the age of 24, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Instead of building jobs-creation and other social-service programs for youths and students affected by de-industrialization and the scientific-technological revolution, the city's ruling class, like others across the country, is sacrificing them to the poverty draft.

According to the United States Army Junior ROTC website, JROTC is "a continuing success story." Of course it doesn't specify for whom.

JROTC came into being with the passage of the National Defense Act of 1916. Under the act's provisions, high schools were loaned federal military equipment and assigned active-duty military personnel as instructors.

From six units in 1916, JROTC has expanded to 1,555 schools today, the larg est of the "armed forces" reserve units. JROTC exists in every state in the United States--and in countries with a U.S. military presence, including Guam, Germany and South Korea.

Currently, some 300,000 high school students aged 13-18 are taught by 3,900 active duty Army retirees.

In 1992, after the Los Angeles rebellion when the racist police who beat Black motorist Rodney King were acquitted of all charges, President George H.W. Bush responded by pushing an initiative to double the number of JROTC programs from 1,500 to 3,000. Now, in the absence of a draft, President George W. Bush is continuing the expansion. In 2002 he oversaw the passage of the Defense Authorization Bill, which removed the 1992 federal limit of 3,500 JROTC programs.

The Congressional Budget Office expects the number of JROTC units to surpass 3,500 by next year.

Nationally oppressed students are a particular target of recruiters, according to a 1999 report titled "Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps: Contributions to America's Communities," published by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, an imperialist think tank.

In the academic year 1995-1996, African American students made up approximately 15 percent of the U.S. high school population. But African American JROTC enrollment rose from 25 percent in 1994-95 to 33 percent in 1996-97. The increase continues.

Similar statistics reveal the same pattern for [email protected] and other oppressed students. And although the report claims percentages of white recruiting have stabilized or are decreasing, the Pentagon also preys on disaffected white youths in working-class communities like Worcester.

The Army is stepping up more sophisticated marketing such as using hip-hop music, multi-media techniques and free-giveaway gimmicks to recruit. "The hip-hop market has a vast fan base," said Col. Thomas Nickerson, the Army's national advertising director, in an October 2003 Newsweek interview.

But, as proven at the protests against the Democratic and Republican conventions and elsewhere, there's also a big, growing movement of multi-national youths and students fighting back.

Gould concluded: "We've got to help other young people see through the lies now and organize against this recruitment because if the war makers don't snare enough of us with this they're coming after us with the draft next. Now's the time to fight back! Union yes, war no!"

Youths and students will have a few major opportunities to fight back in the coming weeks.

The "Spirit of America" will roll through Washington, D.C.'s MCI Center, 601 F Street, NW, Sept. 17-18 (www.mcicenter.com) and Albany, New York's Pepsi Arena, 51 South Pearl Street Albany, Sept. 24-25 (www.pepsiarena.com).

The Million Worker March will also have a youth/student contingent. See: www.millionworkermarch.org.

For more information and resources on counter-recruiting and the G.I. resistance movement see: www.join-snafu.org and www.nodraftnoway.org.


Link (http://www.workers.org/ww/2004/worcester0923.php)

[Subversive Pessimist]

I was just curious. No hard feelings from me.

[Subversive Pessimist]

I was just curious. No hard feelings from me.

[Subversive Pessimist]

I was just curious. No hard feelings from me.

[Palmares]

You have brought up some interesting points.


Originally posted by RedCeltic+--> (RedCeltic)Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason?[/b]

Firstly, I think nationalists would find there to be a fine line between questioning and opposing the government. Afterall, is there not a law entitled 'treason' in most (if not all) countries to prosecutes those that work against the government?


RedCeltic
And why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government. After all, it is out of love for the people (which make up the 'country') that we protest the sending of American working people's sons and daughters to go die in the rich man's wars!

I would perhaps question this. I could agree that the sum of one's part does make the whole as such, but what does the whole truly represent? Before I would have agreed that I hated the US government, but not the people. However, I now realise this is not accurate.

I hate the US government, and some, or possibly many of its people. I would even say I hate America (which not not necessitate that I hate all Americans).

Why? It is simple: the United States as a concept represents much of which I vehemently oppose. Much of this has alot to do with false consciousness, brainwashing, etc of course, but this does not mean I have to like it nor accept.

To me, many Americans are conservative, narrow-minded cappies. This (from my knowledge) is a majority (of course there are those that are otherwise 'enlightened'), and thus (in perhaps a utilitarian way) best represents itself as a whole.

Many some afterall, when the see the US flag see it as a symbol of capitalism.

Please note, I care for even those that I hate.

[Palmares]

You have brought up some interesting points.


Originally posted by RedCeltic+--> (RedCeltic)Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason?[/b]

Firstly, I think nationalists would find there to be a fine line between questioning and opposing the government. Afterall, is there not a law entitled 'treason' in most (if not all) countries to prosecutes those that work against the government?


RedCeltic
And why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government. After all, it is out of love for the people (which make up the 'country') that we protest the sending of American working people's sons and daughters to go die in the rich man's wars!

I would perhaps question this. I could agree that the sum of one's part does make the whole as such, but what does the whole truly represent? Before I would have agreed that I hated the US government, but not the people. However, I now realise this is not accurate.

I hate the US government, and some, or possibly many of its people. I would even say I hate America (which not not necessitate that I hate all Americans).

Why? It is simple: the United States as a concept represents much of which I vehemently oppose. Much of this has alot to do with false consciousness, brainwashing, etc of course, but this does not mean I have to like it nor accept.

To me, many Americans are conservative, narrow-minded cappies. This (from my knowledge) is a majority (of course there are those that are otherwise 'enlightened'), and thus (in perhaps a utilitarian way) best represents itself as a whole.

Many some afterall, when the see the US flag see it as a symbol of capitalism.

Please note, I care for even those that I hate.

[Palmares]

You have brought up some interesting points.


Originally posted by RedCeltic+--> (RedCeltic)Why do nationalists always seem to think that questioning your government is treason?[/b]

Firstly, I think nationalists would find there to be a fine line between questioning and opposing the government. Afterall, is there not a law entitled 'treason' in most (if not all) countries to prosecutes those that work against the government?


RedCeltic
And why is it so hard to understand that most of us love our country but hate our government. After all, it is out of love for the people (which make up the 'country') that we protest the sending of American working people's sons and daughters to go die in the rich man's wars!

I would perhaps question this. I could agree that the sum of one's part does make the whole as such, but what does the whole truly represent? Before I would have agreed that I hated the US government, but not the people. However, I now realise this is not accurate.

I hate the US government, and some, or possibly many of its people. I would even say I hate America (which not not necessitate that I hate all Americans).

Why? It is simple: the United States as a concept represents much of which I vehemently oppose. Much of this has alot to do with false consciousness, brainwashing, etc of course, but this does not mean I have to like it nor accept.

To me, many Americans are conservative, narrow-minded cappies. This (from my knowledge) is a majority (of course there are those that are otherwise 'enlightened'), and thus (in perhaps a utilitarian way) best represents itself as a whole.

Many some afterall, when the see the US flag see it as a symbol of capitalism.

Please note, I care for even those that I hate.

[The New Yorker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:30 PM
In response to the post aqbout WWII, when Germany bombed London and other cities, it was not because of the civilians, that was a bonus. The real targets were the war factories. Bombing the entire city was more ofg a decision like "while we're here might as well" When the U.S. bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki there were no war targets, they hit the cities which were accessible and had the highest population. There is another instance of bombing by the U.S. on strictly civilian targets. In Germany, I can't remember the name of the city but it was more or less a retirment community. There were no brick buildings, everything was wood buildings with old style wood shingling. And you know what kind of bombs they used... firebombs, gauranteed to erase the city form the earth. A city full of senior citizens and farmers were burned to the ground. There were no military targets, not even so much as a standing garrison or even a patrol.

As I said before about the old man, he probably grew up in the time period when God and Country were one and the same. In many ways this is still true, America could be considered a theocracy, especially in the deep south.
Bombing the entire city wasn’t a "while we're here might as well" it was actually because they lacked precision bombing i would of thought this was at least obvious...

At the point when the USA dropped a-bombs on Japan they already had planes in position to bomb any city in Japan and these 2 cities were picked totally at random out of a hat. The hat had many sparsely populated cities in it as well as a few medium populated cities.

[The New Yorker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:30 PM
In response to the post aqbout WWII, when Germany bombed London and other cities, it was not because of the civilians, that was a bonus. The real targets were the war factories. Bombing the entire city was more ofg a decision like "while we're here might as well" When the U.S. bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki there were no war targets, they hit the cities which were accessible and had the highest population. There is another instance of bombing by the U.S. on strictly civilian targets. In Germany, I can't remember the name of the city but it was more or less a retirment community. There were no brick buildings, everything was wood buildings with old style wood shingling. And you know what kind of bombs they used... firebombs, gauranteed to erase the city form the earth. A city full of senior citizens and farmers were burned to the ground. There were no military targets, not even so much as a standing garrison or even a patrol.

As I said before about the old man, he probably grew up in the time period when God and Country were one and the same. In many ways this is still true, America could be considered a theocracy, especially in the deep south.
Bombing the entire city wasn’t a "while we're here might as well" it was actually because they lacked precision bombing i would of thought this was at least obvious...

At the point when the USA dropped a-bombs on Japan they already had planes in position to bomb any city in Japan and these 2 cities were picked totally at random out of a hat. The hat had many sparsely populated cities in it as well as a few medium populated cities.

[The New Yorker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:30 PM
In response to the post aqbout WWII, when Germany bombed London and other cities, it was not because of the civilians, that was a bonus. The real targets were the war factories. Bombing the entire city was more ofg a decision like "while we're here might as well" When the U.S. bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki there were no war targets, they hit the cities which were accessible and had the highest population. There is another instance of bombing by the U.S. on strictly civilian targets. In Germany, I can't remember the name of the city but it was more or less a retirment community. There were no brick buildings, everything was wood buildings with old style wood shingling. And you know what kind of bombs they used... firebombs, gauranteed to erase the city form the earth. A city full of senior citizens and farmers were burned to the ground. There were no military targets, not even so much as a standing garrison or even a patrol.

As I said before about the old man, he probably grew up in the time period when God and Country were one and the same. In many ways this is still true, America could be considered a theocracy, especially in the deep south.
Bombing the entire city wasn’t a "while we're here might as well" it was actually because they lacked precision bombing i would of thought this was at least obvious...

At the point when the USA dropped a-bombs on Japan they already had planes in position to bomb any city in Japan and these 2 cities were picked totally at random out of a hat. The hat had many sparsely populated cities in it as well as a few medium populated cities.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 10:18 AM
You have brought up some interesting points.



I would perhaps question this. I could agree that the sum of one's part does make the whole as such, but what does the whole truly represent? Before I would have agreed that I hated the US government, but not the people. However, I now realise this is not accurate.

I hate the US government, and some, or possibly many of its people. I would even say I hate America (which not not necessitate that I hate all Americans).

Why? It is simple: the United States as a concept represents much of which I vehemently oppose. Much of this has alot to do with false consciousness, brainwashing, etc of course, but this does not mean I have to like it nor accept.

To me, many Americans are conservative, narrow-minded cappies. This (from my knowledge) is a majority (of course there are those that are otherwise 'enlightened'), and thus (in perhaps a utilitarian way) best represents itself as a whole.

Many some afterall, when the see the US flag see it as a symbol of capitalism.

Please note, I care for even those that I hate.
I agree with the basic premise of this. I once said that I just hated the system and the government of the USA. However, I have come to realise that actually a large section of the population supports the system. This has to do with propaganda coming from the media to be sure, but that people know so little about countries outside their own just shocks me. I now say that I hate how ignorant USAians are, how so many of them refuse to learn. Even when protesting against war, it is not because (in many cases) Iraqis or Vietnamese are being killed, but rather Americans. This narrowed minded, inward looking view terrifies me. Especially when you considerer that while the Government is pro-interventionist, the public still believes it is isolationist and only doing it to defend the USA.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

hate the US government, and some, or possibly many of its people. I would even say I hate America (which not not necessitate that I hate all Americans).

Man, you're one sick individual. How do you live with yourself?

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 30 2004, 09:31 AM

Man, you're one sick individual. How do you live with yourself?
What you don't seem to realize, most people I have met, at home or in my travels, agree with his statements.

[Palmares]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 1 2004, 01:31 AM

Man, you're one sick individual. How do you live with yourself?
Justify how I am logically sick.

I cannot respond if there is no arguement presented.

[Ian]

Fully sick.

Sickunt.

*Ian

Hobbies: posting in thread he has only read 1 post in*

[Palmares]

Yeah, fully sick mate.

You wanna go down the Cabramatta trainstation and get a deal man? :lol:

[Ian]

No because I think I live on a different train line and paying for 2 train tickets is too much effort.

[Palmares]

Can't you buy a multi-region ticket? Like Colon, Dick and Bush (excuse my Ministry quote)?

Otherwise, you are a stooge man. You a clown man. :lol:

[cubist]

Man, you're one sick individual. How do you live with yourself?

i would like to point out that you support the deaths of 30,000 starving people everyday by saying capitalism is acceptable so calling anyone sick is complete hipocracy,

[dopediana]

speaking of starving people, the whole presidential debate last night concerning foreign policy was really concerning matters of homeland security. that's all they push: the military. they're really trying to scare people shitless.......

[Anti-Capitalist1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 12:33 PM
speaking of starving people, the whole presidential debate last night concerning foreign policy was really concerning matters of homeland security. that's all they push: the military. they're really trying to scare people shitless.......
Basically, the WTC, was a blip on the grand death map. It was just whored out for our country's leader's financial gain.

More than Iraq, Iran, more than North Korea, people should fear the US. We're the most unstable nation in the world, plus we have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of nuclear weapons.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:33 AM
speaking of starving people, the whole presidential debate last night concerning foreign policy was really concerning matters of homeland security. that's all they push: the military. they're really trying to scare people shitless.......
Kerry showed himself to be the wimp he truly is. I like how Bush said he didn't believe the US Should be in the world court because Americans might be brought to trial, and Kerry totally ignored that.... fucker should have said flat out that if someone is guilty of war crimes he should be brought to the world court... but perhaps this is touchy for someone who onece said he was guilty of war crimes himself in Vietnam.

He also failed to mention one of the most important reasons for having bilataral talks with North Korea... which is that there still isn't a Peace treaty since the war! Only a ceasefire treaty!

[dopediana]

his point was essentially that he was going to carry on bush's course but do it BETTER. send in more troops and use more diplomacy etc., managed to get bush on the defensive, so bush said something which was essentially "we're going to change our strategy." for foreign policy, the stands weren't very different.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:24 AM

i would like to point out that you support the deaths of 30,000 starving people everyday by saying capitalism is acceptable so calling anyone sick is complete hipocracy,
How is that the fault of capitalism ?

[cubist]

becuase if capitalism was fair and wealth was distrubuted correctly and evenly they wouldn't be starving.

not much of an economist are we mr moneybags

[Osman Ghazi]

How is that the fault of capitalism ?

Even though not every country in the world is at a modern stage of capitalism, capitalists still participate in those economies, allowing their highly stratified ruling class to perpetuate the blatant inequalities of their regimes. Capitalism is a gloabla economic force. It doesn't exist in just one country. It exists, in some form or the other, in every nation on the planet. You see, they all have capital, hence capitalism.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 3 2004, 01:30 PM

Even though not every country in the world is at a modern stage of capitalism, capitalists still participate in those economies, allowing their highly stratified ruling class to perpetuate the blatant inequalities of their regimes. Capitalism is a gloabla economic force. It doesn't exist in just one country. It exists, in some form or the other, in every nation on the planet. You see, they all have capital, hence capitalism.
Please answer the question :


i would like to point out that you support the deaths of 30,000 starving people everyday by saying capitalism is acceptable so calling anyone sick is complete hipocracy,


How is that the fault of capitalism ?

Whether or not 30000 people starve a day has nothing to do with economic inequality. Go and find CATO's top 10 capitalism list and tell me how many of those countries have a starving population.

[Osman Ghazi]

Whether or not 30000 people starve a day has nothing to do with economic inequality. Go and find CATO's top 10 capitalism list and tell me how many of those countries have a starving population.

People starve to death when they don't have enough money to buy food. This situation occurs as a result of economic inequality. Why else would they starve? For kicks?

According to the article in the other thread, the top capitalist country in the world is Iraq. Not exactly a shining success. :P

[cubist]

you just don't get it do you, capitalism has a global effect, just becuase your country is not starving doesn't relinquish you of your duties to fellow human beings of countries your global monopolies feed off,

[Professor Moneybags]

People starve to death when they don't have enough money to buy food. This situation occurs as a result of economic inequality.

Non sequitur. If we burned all of our money, we'd have nothing and we'd be equal. We'd also be starving. What does economic equality solve ?


According to the article in the other thread, the top capitalist country in the world is Iraq. Not exactly a shining success. :P

According to who ?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 11:02 AM
you just don't get it do you, capitalism has a global effect, just becuase your country is not starving doesn't relinquish you of your duties to fellow human beings of countries your global monopolies feed off,
What you are suggesting is that someone's else's need creates a duty on our part to respond to it and that someone else's misfortune entitles them by right to violate our rights and to confiscate our food/money/whatever. They're not my fellow human beings if they do that, they become parasites. I'll happily help the unfortunate- on my terms.

And "global monopolies" ? On food ? You are having a laugh aren't you ?

[Osman Ghazi]

Non sequitur. If we burned all of our money, we'd have nothing and we'd be equal. We'd also be starving. What does economic equality solve ?


Are you drunk?


According to who ?

Did you actually read the article in the other thread?


What you are suggesting is that someone's else's need creates a duty on our part to respond to it and that someone else's misfortune entitles them by right to violate our rights and to confiscate our food/money/whatever.

What you are suggesting is that people should die because they lack political rights, a situation perpetuated by global capitalism.


They're not my fellow human beings if they do that, they become parasites.

Capitalists are parasites. But you love them.


And "global monopolies" ? On food ? You are having a laugh aren't you ?

This is true. He should have said oligopoly.

[cubist]

yes capitalist imperial, you support the war in iraq right? for the same reasons as bush right?

bush went to war in iraq to relieve the iraqi people from there treacherous US installed dictator, this is doing something for over people who are less fortunate right? so why can you do that but not assist in dropping the third world debt, or paying the coffee farmers and workers more money, but you can go to war to save humans lives? right

further to which global monopolies FULLSTOP. you said food, but on that note if any major global corp paid fairly for the produce from the farmers of other nations, those nations would inturn have an improved economy and thus less would go starving.

But instead you like to keep em hanging for every last penny, so that they are just grateful for what they get even if it woun't feed them for the week.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 5 2004, 07:46 PM

Are you drunk?
No, I'd just like an answer (without the ad hominem).


What you are suggesting is that people should die because they lack political rights, a situation perpetuated by global capitalism.

No ! Not this again. I'm not repeating myself for you people any more. You do not have a "right to food" any more than you have a "right to enslave".

(Ignoring the rest of the tripe).

[Professor Moneybags]

bush went to war in iraq to relieve the iraqi people from there treacherous US installed dictator, this is doing something for over people who are less fortunate right?

It's not the reason I would have advocated the removal of Saddam.


so why can you do that but not assist in dropping the third world debt, or paying the coffee farmers and workers more money, but you can go to war to save humans lives? right

I don't the third world debt is Bush's to drop, nor does he set the price of labour. He's not a dictator, contrary to popular belief. Just as well.


further to which global monopolies FULLSTOP. you said food, but on that note if any major global corp paid fairly for the produce from the farmers of other nations, those nations would inturn have an improved economy and thus less would go starving.

They pay the farmers what they agree to work for.


But instead you like to keep em hanging for every last penny, so that they are just grateful for what they get even if it woun't feed them for the week.

They could always pull out of the third world and let them starve. They'd be dead, but at least they wouldn't be oppressed, eh ?

[RedAnarchist]

Yes you do. Humans deserve certain rights, and if they are denied these rights, then something is very wrong. Besides, i bet you think you have a right to keep all that food in your big American fridge, whilst an starving African orphan dying of AIDS has no right to have even a scrap of food.

[cubist]

money bags,

America may aswell pull out, every year the american and british corps demand a lower price for the product and thats why every year profits improve in our countries and our economies grow at a rate un matchable by developing countries this in turn, means that the third world countries will never leave the third world class they will always be behind us, maybe to you this is acceptable but to me it isn't, it is fit for idiots in your country to spend money on alien insurance but not fit to pay a bit more for coffee and bananana's

BTW so you didn't support bush for his acclaimed reasons then or are you saying bush had a secret agenda which you support?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 02:32 PM
Yes you do. Humans deserve certain rights, and if they are denied these rights, then something is very wrong.
I agree. But the kind of rights you adovcate ("right to food" being one of them) demand goods and services from people and violate their rights, turning them into slaves. I'm not American and it wouldn't matter what size my fridge was- it doesn't make it any less mine just because someone somewhere doesn't have one. A farmer in this country should not be turned into a beast of burden to a starving African just because the latter claims to need his services.

It's this fact that always makes your (alleged) opposition to slavery so hollow.

[Osman Ghazi]

No, I'd just like an answer (without the ad hominem).


It's not worth it, that was the dumbest 'question' I ever heard.
You said:

Non sequitur. If we burned all of our money, we'd have nothing and we'd be equal. We'd also be starving. What does economic equality solve ?


Which was A) nonsensical. And B) even if it did make sense, what does that have to do with anything we were talking about? Burning money? What for?


No ! Not this again. I'm not repeating myself for you people any more. You do not have a "right to food" any more than you have a "right to enslave".


That's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about how they lack any ability at all to influence their own government. But their ruling classes can afford to ignore them because they have a steady flow of foreign capital filling their pockets.

And besides, we already discussed how no actual slavery exists. It is theoretical slavery, i.e. non-existant slavery.

[Seraph]

hey anti, that was a great quote by Douglass. I'm really going to have to use that one some time. Really breaks things down.

Red, I feel your pain. I'm a spoken word artist/poet in Philly and I do a lot of open mic type of events and most of the work is political. I get a lot of reactions like the one you got. Mostly by matrix minded people, usually older white suburbanites, and even some brothas and sistas lately who have been duped to think that the civil rights movement was all we needed in this country. I always thought it was funny how the KKK a terrorist group in and of itself gets protected under the law, and no one tells them to leave, but any other anti-american policy view will get you some angry people telling you to leave. Nah, I'd rather stay and change shit.