Libertarianism?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Is libertarianism a step to the right or a step the left?

How 'bout that Michael Badnarik?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Is libertarianism a step to the right or a step the left?

How 'bout that Michael Badnarik?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Is libertarianism a step to the right or a step the left?

How 'bout that Michael Badnarik?

[socialistfuture]

it can go either way - be wary of some libertarian groups.
libertarianism is of couse the idea of less state power - libetarian socialism is basically another name for anarcho communism or anti-state communism.

http://greyroom.deviantart.com/ has some sites (on the right hand side).

[socialistfuture]

it can go either way - be wary of some libertarian groups.
libertarianism is of couse the idea of less state power - libetarian socialism is basically another name for anarcho communism or anti-state communism.

http://greyroom.deviantart.com/ has some sites (on the right hand side).

[socialistfuture]

it can go either way - be wary of some libertarian groups.
libertarianism is of couse the idea of less state power - libetarian socialism is basically another name for anarcho communism or anti-state communism.

http://greyroom.deviantart.com/ has some sites (on the right hand side).

[il Commie]

Libertarianism used to be another name for anarchism, but today it usually reffers to a very extreme version of Liberalism and free market.

[il Commie]

Libertarianism used to be another name for anarchism, but today it usually reffers to a very extreme version of Liberalism and free market.

[il Commie]

Libertarianism used to be another name for anarchism, but today it usually reffers to a very extreme version of Liberalism and free market.

[SonofRage]

Right-wing Libertarians are great on issues like civil liberties, but they are basically "Anarcho-Capitalists."

[SonofRage]

Right-wing Libertarians are great on issues like civil liberties, but they are basically "Anarcho-Capitalists."

[SonofRage]

Right-wing Libertarians are great on issues like civil liberties, but they are basically "Anarcho-Capitalists."

[Poop]

I personally don't like the right/left dichotomy, so I can't really answer that.

I believe, though I'm not sure, that the term "libertarian" was coined by 19th century anarchist Sebastien Faure. In the U.S., libertarian refers to laissez faire capitalists, but outside I believe it still refers to libertarian socialists.


Originally posted by socialistfuture
libetarian socialism is basically another name for anarcho communism or anti-state communism.
Not all libertarian socialists are communists, that is to say, not all advocate production and distribution on the basis of ability and need, respectively, nor do they all believe in communal ownership of the means of production. Some, like mutualists, basically advocate a market economy, but without usury (rent, profits, interest).

[Poop]

I personally don't like the right/left dichotomy, so I can't really answer that.

I believe, though I'm not sure, that the term "libertarian" was coined by 19th century anarchist Sebastien Faure. In the U.S., libertarian refers to laissez faire capitalists, but outside I believe it still refers to libertarian socialists.


Originally posted by socialistfuture
libetarian socialism is basically another name for anarcho communism or anti-state communism.
Not all libertarian socialists are communists, that is to say, not all advocate production and distribution on the basis of ability and need, respectively, nor do they all believe in communal ownership of the means of production. Some, like mutualists, basically advocate a market economy, but without usury (rent, profits, interest).

[Poop]

I personally don't like the right/left dichotomy, so I can't really answer that.

I believe, though I'm not sure, that the term "libertarian" was coined by 19th century anarchist Sebastien Faure. In the U.S., libertarian refers to laissez faire capitalists, but outside I believe it still refers to libertarian socialists.


Originally posted by socialistfuture
libetarian socialism is basically another name for anarcho communism or anti-state communism.
Not all libertarian socialists are communists, that is to say, not all advocate production and distribution on the basis of ability and need, respectively, nor do they all believe in communal ownership of the means of production. Some, like mutualists, basically advocate a market economy, but without usury (rent, profits, interest).

[monkeydust]

There are "Libertarian-Marxists", which are, essentially, very similar to Anarcho-Communists.

Though usually someone who claims to be a "Libertarian" is a pro-free market, anti-state, right winger.

These guys want everything administered by private companies, that includes prisons, transport, healthcare and even Law courts.

[monkeydust]

There are "Libertarian-Marxists", which are, essentially, very similar to Anarcho-Communists.

Though usually someone who claims to be a "Libertarian" is a pro-free market, anti-state, right winger.

These guys want everything administered by private companies, that includes prisons, transport, healthcare and even Law courts.

[monkeydust]

There are "Libertarian-Marxists", which are, essentially, very similar to Anarcho-Communists.

Though usually someone who claims to be a "Libertarian" is a pro-free market, anti-state, right winger.

These guys want everything administered by private companies, that includes prisons, transport, healthcare and even Law courts.

[Subversive Pessimist]

I guess there's a difference being libertarian and being a libertarian. I am pro legalization of all drugs and various types of sexual preferences etc. I also want communism to be anti-authoritarian, so in that way I am libertarian, but I do despise libertarians who want free market etc.

[Subversive Pessimist]

I guess there's a difference being libertarian and being a libertarian. I am pro legalization of all drugs and various types of sexual preferences etc. I also want communism to be anti-authoritarian, so in that way I am libertarian, but I do despise libertarians who want free market etc.

[Subversive Pessimist]

I guess there's a difference being libertarian and being a libertarian. I am pro legalization of all drugs and various types of sexual preferences etc. I also want communism to be anti-authoritarian, so in that way I am libertarian, but I do despise libertarians who want free market etc.

[Fidelbrand]

bravo~ strawberry, resonance with you.

[Fidelbrand]

bravo~ strawberry, resonance with you.

[Fidelbrand]

bravo~ strawberry, resonance with you.

[PRC-UTE]

The term Libertarian = anarchist. It was invented by a French anarchist (I'll find his name later) to specifically mean anti-authoritarian communist.

Fortunately it is still synonomous with anarchist on the european continent. As far as I know, it only has a double meaning in the english speaking world.

So although it may seem like splitting hairs to some folks, I think it was dishonest and unprincipled of the "small" cappies to take the name.

Not that I'd actually expect anything different from the likes of them. :lol:

[PRC-UTE]

The term Libertarian = anarchist. It was invented by a French anarchist (I'll find his name later) to specifically mean anti-authoritarian communist.

Fortunately it is still synonomous with anarchist on the european continent. As far as I know, it only has a double meaning in the english speaking world.

So although it may seem like splitting hairs to some folks, I think it was dishonest and unprincipled of the "small" cappies to take the name.

Not that I'd actually expect anything different from the likes of them. :lol:

[PRC-UTE]

The term Libertarian = anarchist. It was invented by a French anarchist (I'll find his name later) to specifically mean anti-authoritarian communist.

Fortunately it is still synonomous with anarchist on the european continent. As far as I know, it only has a double meaning in the english speaking world.

So although it may seem like splitting hairs to some folks, I think it was dishonest and unprincipled of the "small" cappies to take the name.

Not that I'd actually expect anything different from the likes of them. :lol:

[redtrigger]

If you want to define yourself or anything on such narrow term as right or left (This directed to no one in particular). Than you can take your dichotomous, narrow mind and kiss my ass right in the center. It pisses me off when people say "I'm a liberal," or "I'm a conservative," Until you here the issue your mind should not be made up, other wise you are just a sheep. In order for the Cause to ever become anything we need people who can think for themselves.

[redtrigger]

If you want to define yourself or anything on such narrow term as right or left (This directed to no one in particular). Than you can take your dichotomous, narrow mind and kiss my ass right in the center. It pisses me off when people say "I'm a liberal," or "I'm a conservative," Until you here the issue your mind should not be made up, other wise you are just a sheep. In order for the Cause to ever become anything we need people who can think for themselves.

[redtrigger]

If you want to define yourself or anything on such narrow term as right or left (This directed to no one in particular). Than you can take your dichotomous, narrow mind and kiss my ass right in the center. It pisses me off when people say "I'm a liberal," or "I'm a conservative," Until you here the issue your mind should not be made up, other wise you are just a sheep. In order for the Cause to ever become anything we need people who can think for themselves.

[h&s]

or anti-state communism.

Communism is anti-state anyway - there's no need to add that tag to it.

[h&s]

or anti-state communism.

Communism is anti-state anyway - there's no need to add that tag to it.

[h&s]

or anti-state communism.

Communism is anti-state anyway - there's no need to add that tag to it.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 25 2004, 07:44 PM
Communism is anti-state anyway - there's no need to add that tag to it.
Nope. Communism is a non-state system, but on it's early stage ('Socialism') it forms a state. 'Anti-state Communism' means the lack of any kind of state after the revolution.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 25 2004, 07:44 PM
Communism is anti-state anyway - there's no need to add that tag to it.
Nope. Communism is a non-state system, but on it's early stage ('Socialism') it forms a state. 'Anti-state Communism' means the lack of any kind of state after the revolution.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 25 2004, 07:44 PM
Communism is anti-state anyway - there's no need to add that tag to it.
Nope. Communism is a non-state system, but on it's early stage ('Socialism') it forms a state. 'Anti-state Communism' means the lack of any kind of state after the revolution.

[Freedom Writer]

Hello! Im new to che-lives community, but I have question already! So, I have seen the both movies of Michael Moore, could you count him as libertarian? I like the way he kinda 'fights'.

I dont really know which I am, when I read about communists and capitalists, well I could put my self to the lobby of libertarian. But as someone said, its stupid to say anything if ya know nothing. I dont know much about politics, too tricky for me, but I still sense "right and wrong" (iraq war, quantanamo bay or something..) and so on. Also Im against death penalty, abortion (but still I would want that the 'issue' is resolved by the mother and only by the mother). I hate systems that wont work, such as religions (Here in finland we have few stupid laws because of church). Okay okay, freedom for everyone, but sometimes if you give too much freedom, someone will abuse it in some way.

Also I know that in this world its Lex Talionis (law of the jungle) but we - people - can change it. I see humanity as the only flaw of nature/evolution. I love nature, Im not a hippie or a tree hugger, but still I enjoy walking in forests and stuff. Then sometimes you see in news and so on, that these big companys destroy the thing that I love - for money?.. Money isnt forever, nature could be.

And people saying how horrible killing is and then cheering when some young guys get the needle (death penalty).

Sometimes I ask myself, is this place real?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
-Albert Einstein

[Freedom Writer]

Hello! Im new to che-lives community, but I have question already! So, I have seen the both movies of Michael Moore, could you count him as libertarian? I like the way he kinda 'fights'.

I dont really know which I am, when I read about communists and capitalists, well I could put my self to the lobby of libertarian. But as someone said, its stupid to say anything if ya know nothing. I dont know much about politics, too tricky for me, but I still sense "right and wrong" (iraq war, quantanamo bay or something..) and so on. Also Im against death penalty, abortion (but still I would want that the 'issue' is resolved by the mother and only by the mother). I hate systems that wont work, such as religions (Here in finland we have few stupid laws because of church). Okay okay, freedom for everyone, but sometimes if you give too much freedom, someone will abuse it in some way.

Also I know that in this world its Lex Talionis (law of the jungle) but we - people - can change it. I see humanity as the only flaw of nature/evolution. I love nature, Im not a hippie or a tree hugger, but still I enjoy walking in forests and stuff. Then sometimes you see in news and so on, that these big companys destroy the thing that I love - for money?.. Money isnt forever, nature could be.

And people saying how horrible killing is and then cheering when some young guys get the needle (death penalty).

Sometimes I ask myself, is this place real?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
-Albert Einstein

[Freedom Writer]

Hello! Im new to che-lives community, but I have question already! So, I have seen the both movies of Michael Moore, could you count him as libertarian? I like the way he kinda 'fights'.

I dont really know which I am, when I read about communists and capitalists, well I could put my self to the lobby of libertarian. But as someone said, its stupid to say anything if ya know nothing. I dont know much about politics, too tricky for me, but I still sense "right and wrong" (iraq war, quantanamo bay or something..) and so on. Also Im against death penalty, abortion (but still I would want that the 'issue' is resolved by the mother and only by the mother). I hate systems that wont work, such as religions (Here in finland we have few stupid laws because of church). Okay okay, freedom for everyone, but sometimes if you give too much freedom, someone will abuse it in some way.

Also I know that in this world its Lex Talionis (law of the jungle) but we - people - can change it. I see humanity as the only flaw of nature/evolution. I love nature, Im not a hippie or a tree hugger, but still I enjoy walking in forests and stuff. Then sometimes you see in news and so on, that these big companys destroy the thing that I love - for money?.. Money isnt forever, nature could be.

And people saying how horrible killing is and then cheering when some young guys get the needle (death penalty).

Sometimes I ask myself, is this place real?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
-Albert Einstein

[h&s]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 25 2004, 10:30 PM
Nope. Communism is a non-state system, but on it's early stage ('Socialism') it forms a state. 'Anti-state Communism' means the lack of any kind of state after the revolution.
I get what you mean, but at the end of the day Communists want the total abolition of the state, so there is no way that we can't be considered as 'anti-state.'

Earp - First of all, welcome to Che-lives - hope you enjoy it here. Secondly, on the subject of Michael Moore, people here either love him for him exposing evil people, or they hate him as a lying, money-grabbing, good-for-nothing capitalist. He can certainly seem like a libertarian, or even a socialist at times, but at other times he can seem like an egotistical asshole. I'm torn between both opinions at the moment.

[h&s]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 25 2004, 10:30 PM
Nope. Communism is a non-state system, but on it's early stage ('Socialism') it forms a state. 'Anti-state Communism' means the lack of any kind of state after the revolution.
I get what you mean, but at the end of the day Communists want the total abolition of the state, so there is no way that we can't be considered as 'anti-state.'

Earp - First of all, welcome to Che-lives - hope you enjoy it here. Secondly, on the subject of Michael Moore, people here either love him for him exposing evil people, or they hate him as a lying, money-grabbing, good-for-nothing capitalist. He can certainly seem like a libertarian, or even a socialist at times, but at other times he can seem like an egotistical asshole. I'm torn between both opinions at the moment.

[h&s]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 25 2004, 10:30 PM
Nope. Communism is a non-state system, but on it's early stage ('Socialism') it forms a state. 'Anti-state Communism' means the lack of any kind of state after the revolution.
I get what you mean, but at the end of the day Communists want the total abolition of the state, so there is no way that we can't be considered as 'anti-state.'

Earp - First of all, welcome to Che-lives - hope you enjoy it here. Secondly, on the subject of Michael Moore, people here either love him for him exposing evil people, or they hate him as a lying, money-grabbing, good-for-nothing capitalist. He can certainly seem like a libertarian, or even a socialist at times, but at other times he can seem like an egotistical asshole. I'm torn between both opinions at the moment.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:23 PM
If you want to define yourself or anything on such narrow term as right or left (This directed to no one in particular). Than you can take your dichotomous, narrow mind and kiss my ass right in the center. It pisses me off when people say "I'm a liberal," or "I'm a conservative," Until you here the issue your mind should not be made up, other wise you are just a sheep. In order for the Cause to ever become anything we need people who can think for themselves.
What I meant was are the American Libertarians anarchists(leftists) or are they, like monkeydust said, right wingers who would like to privatize everything possible? What do you guys think of Michael Badnarik? Is he a communist/anarchist?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:23 PM
If you want to define yourself or anything on such narrow term as right or left (This directed to no one in particular). Than you can take your dichotomous, narrow mind and kiss my ass right in the center. It pisses me off when people say "I'm a liberal," or "I'm a conservative," Until you here the issue your mind should not be made up, other wise you are just a sheep. In order for the Cause to ever become anything we need people who can think for themselves.
What I meant was are the American Libertarians anarchists(leftists) or are they, like monkeydust said, right wingers who would like to privatize everything possible? What do you guys think of Michael Badnarik? Is he a communist/anarchist?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:23 PM
If you want to define yourself or anything on such narrow term as right or left (This directed to no one in particular). Than you can take your dichotomous, narrow mind and kiss my ass right in the center. It pisses me off when people say "I'm a liberal," or "I'm a conservative," Until you here the issue your mind should not be made up, other wise you are just a sheep. In order for the Cause to ever become anything we need people who can think for themselves.
What I meant was are the American Libertarians anarchists(leftists) or are they, like monkeydust said, right wingers who would like to privatize everything possible? What do you guys think of Michael Badnarik? Is he a communist/anarchist?

[Abbie]

The American Libertarian party is Anarcho-Capitalist. Right-Wing in their beliefs but tolerable because they wouldn't legislate them. Still, though, how a relatively small Anarchist group has managed to attain a place of honour in the radical right is confusing.

Anarcho-Socialism! Huzzah!

[Abbie]

The American Libertarian party is Anarcho-Capitalist. Right-Wing in their beliefs but tolerable because they wouldn't legislate them. Still, though, how a relatively small Anarchist group has managed to attain a place of honour in the radical right is confusing.

Anarcho-Socialism! Huzzah!

[Abbie]

The American Libertarian party is Anarcho-Capitalist. Right-Wing in their beliefs but tolerable because they wouldn't legislate them. Still, though, how a relatively small Anarchist group has managed to attain a place of honour in the radical right is confusing.

Anarcho-Socialism! Huzzah!

[Guest1]

There is no such thing as Anarcho-Capitalism.

[Guest1]

There is no such thing as Anarcho-Capitalism.

[Guest1]

There is no such thing as Anarcho-Capitalism.

[ComradeRed]

Yes, it is contradictory in terms.

[ComradeRed]

Yes, it is contradictory in terms.

[ComradeRed]

Yes, it is contradictory in terms.

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 11:43 AM
Yes, it is contradictory in terms.
Coming from the right wing, with all its fears of "communist states", contradictory terms are not surprising. Just as they totally fail to understand communism, they totally fail to understand anarchism, and somehow think it can work with capitalism.

In regards to these libertarians, I daresay that they are, *gasp*, almost progressive in some of their social views...but hardcore reactionaries in terms of economics.

Put very simply (very simply, I'm making an extreme simplifaction of the situation here), communist and libertarian societies, when all is said and done, would resemble each other except for how things are owned.

Whereas we have our soviets and worker controlled factories (etc), they have everything privately owned.

Everything. Law courts, prisons, the police...all of it.

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 11:43 AM
Yes, it is contradictory in terms.
Coming from the right wing, with all its fears of "communist states", contradictory terms are not surprising. Just as they totally fail to understand communism, they totally fail to understand anarchism, and somehow think it can work with capitalism.

In regards to these libertarians, I daresay that they are, *gasp*, almost progressive in some of their social views...but hardcore reactionaries in terms of economics.

Put very simply (very simply, I'm making an extreme simplifaction of the situation here), communist and libertarian societies, when all is said and done, would resemble each other except for how things are owned.

Whereas we have our soviets and worker controlled factories (etc), they have everything privately owned.

Everything. Law courts, prisons, the police...all of it.

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 11:43 AM
Yes, it is contradictory in terms.
Coming from the right wing, with all its fears of "communist states", contradictory terms are not surprising. Just as they totally fail to understand communism, they totally fail to understand anarchism, and somehow think it can work with capitalism.

In regards to these libertarians, I daresay that they are, *gasp*, almost progressive in some of their social views...but hardcore reactionaries in terms of economics.

Put very simply (very simply, I'm making an extreme simplifaction of the situation here), communist and libertarian societies, when all is said and done, would resemble each other except for how things are owned.

Whereas we have our soviets and worker controlled factories (etc), they have everything privately owned.

Everything. Law courts, prisons, the police...all of it.

[Orange Juche]

Libertarianism makes me SICK.

[Orange Juche]

Libertarianism makes me SICK.

[Orange Juche]

Libertarianism makes me SICK.

[monkeydust]

Yes, it is contradictory in terms.

Why?



So, I have seen the both movies of Michael Moore, could you count him as libertarian?

No, not really.

I'd say he's more of a slightly left leaning capitalist if anything, though it's hard to tell when he spends 90% of his time criticizing and comparatively little explaining alternatives to the current way of things.



They want everything privately owned.Everything. Law courts, prisons, the police...all of it.

Too true, and I don't believe they adequately understand the problems with doing this.

Even today, many prisons are privately run and administered, with grants from the government.

Chillingly, I've heard that businesses lobby governments to introduce more austere laws and punishments in order to increase demand for their service. Even prisons can become production lines, it seems.

[Freedom Writer]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 26 2004, 10:17 AM
Earp - First of all, welcome to Che-lives - hope you enjoy it here. Secondly, on the subject of Michael Moore, people here either love him for him exposing evil people, or they hate him as a lying, money-grabbing, good-for-nothing capitalist. He can certainly seem like a libertarian, or even a socialist at times, but at other times he can seem like an egotistical asshole. I'm torn between both opinions at the moment.
Yeah Im not a big fan, but I must admit that he has made alot of work against Bush and still goes on. And also I like the way he puts it, using 'media', maybe the most powerful weapon nowadays. I see the point that "Hes a capitalist" because he gets alot of money out of the films, but the fact is that he tried to put f 9/11 television, but the dvd company didnt want it.. so, well I dont know. In this case "My enemys enemy is my friend."

I Think that hes most likely bit of everything, you cant put it in one hole.

[pandora]

Love the ideology of Liberatarianism, hate the way it has been manipulated by corporate interests, but just another mark of "neo-liberalism" is to misnomer everything and repossess it, like water and coca cola :D

[insurgency03]

wrong to some extent.basicly a capitialist paradise in the ways that liberatrian affiliates tend to look at it. i am a libertarian socialist however, i think that if the workers did manage to control production then big government would no longer be a necessity, seeing that there'd be no one to protect the workers form.

[socialistfuture]

yeah i think there is a clear difference between libertarians - as in people who advocate less goverment and u do what u want - u dont tax us do whatever and
libertarian socialist/anarchists who advocate less gov power because they believe governments are corrupt - and it is not democratic enough - i think at this stage i would call myself a libertarian socialislist/communist/anarchist - and i hate the libertarianz party here they are rightwing fucks.

well hope ppl know the difference between the two.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 01:53 PM
Yes, it is contradictory in terms.

Why?
Because Anarchism is an exclusively socialist movement. It has always been and always will be, a worker's movement to eliminate all forms of hierarchy. The church, the state and capital all comprise forms of hierarchy. A boss in heaven, in parliament or in the work place comes to the same thing, hierarchy.

So yes, "anarcho-capitalism" is a figment of the right's imagination.