Capitalism

[CubanFox]

I've decided to cut all the bollocks of anti-capitalism and am going to compile a list of the various reasons why right-thinking lefties really hate capitalism.

So go ahead, give a summary of why you dislike the economic model that most of the world currently lives under.

[Poop]

In order to state what is undesirable about capitalism, we should first define what exactly capitalism is. Capitalism is an economic system where the means of production are privately owned and operated, and resources are allocated on the basis of a free market. The free market part is not a problem- I see now reason why the government or anyone else should interfere with voluntary interactions between two or more people.

The problem with capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. Under capitalism, workers, who do not own capital, have to sell their labor to someone who does own capital, a capitalist. The difference between the revenue brought in by the firm and the wages paid to the workers, is called profit. Most firms are collective dictatorships called "corporations." Corporations are very authoritarian. In fact, fascist Italy was originally called an "estato corporativo" (corporate state).

The private ownership of the means of production is based on the fundamental principle of private property. According to the capitalist system of property, just ownership of property is not based on use, nor is property shared on the basis of need. Rather, it is based on force. While most advocates of capitalism would argue that present property arrangements are just because all exhanges of property are completely nonviolent and consensual (in other words, people who have property now obtained it through voluntary trade, and the person from whom s(he) obtained the property also obtained it through voluntary trade, etc. etc.), they fail to take into account the justice or lack thereof of the original acquisition of property. A commonly offered explanation is that one someone first used, say, a stick, and declared it to be his/her own, it became his/her own. Eventually, people kept doing this until everything came under the domain of private property. I have two major objections to this justification of property.

Firstly, even if this original acquisition of property were just, and if all subsequent acquisitions that were made with the consent of all parties involved, this doesn't take into account the role that slavery, genocide, and imperialism, and other forms of robbery have played in the formation of current property arrangements. Are we to ignore all the past injust property acquisitions and allow the current holders of property to hold on to their property, despite the history behind it?

Secondly, if the stick transformed from a non-possessed item into the property of an individual because s(he) used it and then proclaimed that it was his/her own, claiming in effect that the stick was an extension of him/her self, that using "his/her" stick with his/her permission is an act of coercion of him/her self, then why doesn't a similar transformation occur when the stick is used by someone else? If we accept this justification for property, then don't the means of production become the property of the workers when they use it, instead of belonging to some faraway capitalist? Don't the apartments belong to the tenants instead of some faraway capitalist?

Since property is not based on use, it can be used exploitatively. For example, let's say a capitalist owns a factory. The workers in the factory work ten hours a day, while the capitalist doesn't have to work at all because he owns the factory. So the workers toil and bring in revenue for the factory, of which they keep but a portion, while the rest goes to the factory owner because he "owns" the factory. The capitalist is in effect robbing the workers.

The means of productions should be owned and managed by those who use them. Workplaces should be democratic and nonhierarchical. All nonlabor income should be abolished. This includes rent, profit, and interest, all of which result not from creating any productive value, but from owning capital and stealing money from the people who do actual productive work.

[apathy maybe]

I just think of people starving in miscellaneous developing countries, or slums in the so-called developed countries. If capitalism is fair and just, why are there so many people who go hungry?

And also, under capitalism, the environment is just a tool to make money. Capitalism assumes an effectively unlimited amount of resources, which is obviously not the case (and don't say we can go into space, not now we can't). Capitalism is thus (ignoring any moral and social issues) unsustainable.

So bring on the revolution and the destruction of the system that destroys the environment. (note the green in my avatar).

[LSD]

right-thinking lefties

:lol: :blink: :lol:

hmm... I think I know what you mean (Lefties who think correctly) but it's still funny!

[cubist]

the fact that it in itself is the foundation of an imperialist monopoly something which our generations get to watch unfold at a severly accelerated pace. the formation of such monopolies is not only dividing the world up amongst a few elite members of the bourgoise but infact controlling the politicians below.

asides form that the unfair entrapment of the proleteriat into wages slavery.

and monocultivation of less fortunate 3rd world countries which is thus hindering the growth of parts of the world for the benifit of those elite bourgoise

[Bolshevist]

http://www.rnw.nl/amsterdamforum/a_starving180.jpg

My reason.

[h&s]

I don't think any of us can add anything else to that. It sums up pretty much everything.

[commiecrusader]

It is exploitative (sp?) and boils down to little more than theft by the few motivated by greed.

[Fidelbrand]

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[Fidelbrand]

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[Fidelbrand]

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[Comfort]

i dislike that gov't say they are going to stay out of the "free" market and then give loans and tax subsidies to transnational corporations. also i don't like capitalism because it just focus's on power and money and wealth and the like. in today's neoliberalism capitalism allows big corporations to pillage countries. that picture tells all and makes me sick to my stomach with sadness and anger. capitalism's names itself is damning proof of its evil...moneyism.

[Comfort]

i dislike that gov't say they are going to stay out of the "free" market and then give loans and tax subsidies to transnational corporations. also i don't like capitalism because it just focus's on power and money and wealth and the like. in today's neoliberalism capitalism allows big corporations to pillage countries. that picture tells all and makes me sick to my stomach with sadness and anger. capitalism's names itself is damning proof of its evil...moneyism.

[Comfort]

i dislike that gov't say they are going to stay out of the "free" market and then give loans and tax subsidies to transnational corporations. also i don't like capitalism because it just focus's on power and money and wealth and the like. in today's neoliberalism capitalism allows big corporations to pillage countries. that picture tells all and makes me sick to my stomach with sadness and anger. capitalism's names itself is damning proof of its evil...moneyism.

[h&s]

Fidelbrand - any chance of translating that picture for dip-shits like me? :)

[h&s]

Fidelbrand - any chance of translating that picture for dip-shits like me? :)

[h&s]

Fidelbrand - any chance of translating that picture for dip-shits like me? :)

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 26 2004, 06:20 PM
Fidelbrand - any chance of translating that picture for dip-shits like me? :)
excuse me, i saved it off a site and it turned out fragmented.

It says" dignity, work, change, and social something (:D )"

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 26 2004, 06:20 PM
Fidelbrand - any chance of translating that picture for dip-shits like me? :)
excuse me, i saved it off a site and it turned out fragmented.

It says" dignity, work, change, and social something (:D )"

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 26 2004, 06:20 PM
Fidelbrand - any chance of translating that picture for dip-shits like me? :)
excuse me, i saved it off a site and it turned out fragmented.

It says" dignity, work, change, and social something (:D )"

[Nas]

Capitalism can't take all the blame for what happened to the kid in Twisted's post.

[Nas]

Capitalism can't take all the blame for what happened to the kid in Twisted's post.

[Nas]

Capitalism can't take all the blame for what happened to the kid in Twisted's post.

[NovelGentry]

So who does take the blame? I highly doubt it's the parents fault that their third world country is overrun with imperalist capitalist interests. How bout diamond miners in Africa, you think them and their families are doing good? They got a good chance at moving up to a highrise in New York as an executive for DeBeer's right?

[NovelGentry]

So who does take the blame? I highly doubt it's the parents fault that their third world country is overrun with imperalist capitalist interests. How bout diamond miners in Africa, you think them and their families are doing good? They got a good chance at moving up to a highrise in New York as an executive for DeBeer's right?

[NovelGentry]

So who does take the blame? I highly doubt it's the parents fault that their third world country is overrun with imperalist capitalist interests. How bout diamond miners in Africa, you think them and their families are doing good? They got a good chance at moving up to a highrise in New York as an executive for DeBeer's right?

[ComradeRed]

Medecine isn't readily available, except for those who can afford it!

[ComradeRed]

Medecine isn't readily available, except for those who can afford it!

[ComradeRed]

Medecine isn't readily available, except for those who can afford it!

[KrazyRabidSheep]

okay i got a short reason i dont like capitolism

you need money to make money

if you got a rich daddy, you're set, if you got a poor daddy, you're screwed

[KrazyRabidSheep]

okay i got a short reason i dont like capitolism

you need money to make money

if you got a rich daddy, you're set, if you got a poor daddy, you're screwed

[KrazyRabidSheep]

okay i got a short reason i dont like capitolism

you need money to make money

if you got a rich daddy, you're set, if you got a poor daddy, you're screwed

[Freedom Writer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 05:59 PM
http://www.rnw.nl/amsterdamforum/a_starving180.jpg

My reason.
Starvey marvin! :lol:

No its really bad, I had to be without good food for a week and I was nervous, tired and all that shit. I really hate the fact that Bush burns money on war and at the same time this is happening. Sometimes as I have said, I wonder is this just a stupid dream, a nightmare.. soon over.

[Freedom Writer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 05:59 PM
http://www.rnw.nl/amsterdamforum/a_starving180.jpg

My reason.
Starvey marvin! :lol:

No its really bad, I had to be without good food for a week and I was nervous, tired and all that shit. I really hate the fact that Bush burns money on war and at the same time this is happening. Sometimes as I have said, I wonder is this just a stupid dream, a nightmare.. soon over.

[Freedom Writer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 05:59 PM
http://www.rnw.nl/amsterdamforum/a_starving180.jpg

My reason.
Starvey marvin! :lol:

No its really bad, I had to be without good food for a week and I was nervous, tired and all that shit. I really hate the fact that Bush burns money on war and at the same time this is happening. Sometimes as I have said, I wonder is this just a stupid dream, a nightmare.. soon over.

[Nas]

your willing to blame it all on the Capitalist system?is that it? you dont think there is nothing else to blame it on? not even a little thing that can take the blame?


you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" , thats an easy answer , thats like a freshman answer but you are in a senior class ,
don't get me wrong Capitalism takes the blame for what is happening in Africa but it doesn't take all the blame
if you want to find out more just do some research

[Nas]

your willing to blame it all on the Capitalist system?is that it? you dont think there is nothing else to blame it on? not even a little thing that can take the blame?


you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" , thats an easy answer , thats like a freshman answer but you are in a senior class ,
don't get me wrong Capitalism takes the blame for what is happening in Africa but it doesn't take all the blame
if you want to find out more just do some research

[Nas]

your willing to blame it all on the Capitalist system?is that it? you dont think there is nothing else to blame it on? not even a little thing that can take the blame?


you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" , thats an easy answer , thats like a freshman answer but you are in a senior class ,
don't get me wrong Capitalism takes the blame for what is happening in Africa but it doesn't take all the blame
if you want to find out more just do some research

[Xvall]

Well, for starters, capitalism fucks with me. People tend not to like things that try to fuck around with them. This is also one of the reasons I despise nazis. Sure, I partially dislike them for being ignorant, miseducated sons of *****es - but the fact that they want to publicly hang me really takes the fucking cake.

That's just on a personal level. One of the main reasons I hate capitalism is because it is outdated, and doesn't work. Socialism works better when it is put in jeopardy by the earth's most powerful nation than capitalism does when it is aided by that same force. [See Cuba Vs. Haiti]

[Xvall]

Well, for starters, capitalism fucks with me. People tend not to like things that try to fuck around with them. This is also one of the reasons I despise nazis. Sure, I partially dislike them for being ignorant, miseducated sons of *****es - but the fact that they want to publicly hang me really takes the fucking cake.

That's just on a personal level. One of the main reasons I hate capitalism is because it is outdated, and doesn't work. Socialism works better when it is put in jeopardy by the earth's most powerful nation than capitalism does when it is aided by that same force. [See Cuba Vs. Haiti]

[Xvall]

Well, for starters, capitalism fucks with me. People tend not to like things that try to fuck around with them. This is also one of the reasons I despise nazis. Sure, I partially dislike them for being ignorant, miseducated sons of *****es - but the fact that they want to publicly hang me really takes the fucking cake.

That's just on a personal level. One of the main reasons I hate capitalism is because it is outdated, and doesn't work. Socialism works better when it is put in jeopardy by the earth's most powerful nation than capitalism does when it is aided by that same force. [See Cuba Vs. Haiti]

[Gringo-a-Go-Go]

I hate capitalism for most all of the above of course, but also because of how it debases and prostitutes all human relations it touches... I'd say that every person who supports capitalism does not grasp how intimately their daily lives are shrivelled, wizened and hollowed-out by the constant need to place someone's narrow gain ahead of all other considerations.
Capitalism is truly insidious and totalitarian.

And if there were such a thing as Pure Evil, I'd accuse it of that, too.

[Gringo-a-Go-Go]

I hate capitalism for most all of the above of course, but also because of how it debases and prostitutes all human relations it touches... I'd say that every person who supports capitalism does not grasp how intimately their daily lives are shrivelled, wizened and hollowed-out by the constant need to place someone's narrow gain ahead of all other considerations.
Capitalism is truly insidious and totalitarian.

And if there were such a thing as Pure Evil, I'd accuse it of that, too.

[Gringo-a-Go-Go]

I hate capitalism for most all of the above of course, but also because of how it debases and prostitutes all human relations it touches... I'd say that every person who supports capitalism does not grasp how intimately their daily lives are shrivelled, wizened and hollowed-out by the constant need to place someone's narrow gain ahead of all other considerations.
Capitalism is truly insidious and totalitarian.

And if there were such a thing as Pure Evil, I'd accuse it of that, too.

[Bolshevist]

you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" ,

What I was trying to show with that picture, was how bad the wealth in capitalism is distributed. I could also have mentioned prostitutes, drug addicts, homeless people, people who work 15 hours a day yet merely makes enough money to pay the bills, people who are in debt over their necks etc etc...

I was not trying to say "capitalism is bad because people is starving" but trying to illustrate what I feel is wrong with todays economic system. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Bolshevist]

you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" ,

What I was trying to show with that picture, was how bad the wealth in capitalism is distributed. I could also have mentioned prostitutes, drug addicts, homeless people, people who work 15 hours a day yet merely makes enough money to pay the bills, people who are in debt over their necks etc etc...

I was not trying to say "capitalism is bad because people is starving" but trying to illustrate what I feel is wrong with todays economic system. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Bolshevist]

you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" ,

What I was trying to show with that picture, was how bad the wealth in capitalism is distributed. I could also have mentioned prostitutes, drug addicts, homeless people, people who work 15 hours a day yet merely makes enough money to pay the bills, people who are in debt over their necks etc etc...

I was not trying to say "capitalism is bad because people is starving" but trying to illustrate what I feel is wrong with todays economic system. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Freedom Writer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 10:03 PM
your willing to blame it all on the Capitalist system?is that it? you dont think there is nothing else to blame it on? not even a little thing that can take the blame?


you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" , thats an easy answer , thats like a freshman answer but you are in a senior class ,
don't get me wrong Capitalism takes the blame for what is happening in Africa but it doesn't take all the blame
if you want to find out more just do some research
Im just a newbie, but capitalism gives us leaders like Bush. Well what good and bad has capitalism done on meter (100%) Good - (0%) nothing - (-100%) bad.

So far my calculations give ~-70%.

Im no commie, nor liberal, nor capitalist. Im just me. I think as I want and keep an open-mind.

PS. I dont know much about politics, but then again I want pure world for future generations.

ALSO, capitalism=Lex Talionis (laws of jungle). In many ways.

This is just the way I see it NOW(!) might change the more I read but now its like this. I think about WORLD not just MYSELF or MY countrys interests. I would die if africa would change that way. I give no value (well not much) on my own life, its pretty boring in here.

Also I will remember 9/11 (year 1973)

[Freedom Writer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 10:03 PM
your willing to blame it all on the Capitalist system?is that it? you dont think there is nothing else to blame it on? not even a little thing that can take the blame?


you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" , thats an easy answer , thats like a freshman answer but you are in a senior class ,
don't get me wrong Capitalism takes the blame for what is happening in Africa but it doesn't take all the blame
if you want to find out more just do some research
Im just a newbie, but capitalism gives us leaders like Bush. Well what good and bad has capitalism done on meter (100%) Good - (0%) nothing - (-100%) bad.

So far my calculations give ~-70%.

Im no commie, nor liberal, nor capitalist. Im just me. I think as I want and keep an open-mind.

PS. I dont know much about politics, but then again I want pure world for future generations.

ALSO, capitalism=Lex Talionis (laws of jungle). In many ways.

This is just the way I see it NOW(!) might change the more I read but now its like this. I think about WORLD not just MYSELF or MY countrys interests. I would die if africa would change that way. I give no value (well not much) on my own life, its pretty boring in here.

Also I will remember 9/11 (year 1973)

[Freedom Writer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 10:03 PM
your willing to blame it all on the Capitalist system?is that it? you dont think there is nothing else to blame it on? not even a little thing that can take the blame?


you know this is a freebie, like when a teacher says "why do you think capitalism is bad?" and the student answers "oh because a lot of people are starving in Africa" , thats an easy answer , thats like a freshman answer but you are in a senior class ,
don't get me wrong Capitalism takes the blame for what is happening in Africa but it doesn't take all the blame
if you want to find out more just do some research
Im just a newbie, but capitalism gives us leaders like Bush. Well what good and bad has capitalism done on meter (100%) Good - (0%) nothing - (-100%) bad.

So far my calculations give ~-70%.

Im no commie, nor liberal, nor capitalist. Im just me. I think as I want and keep an open-mind.

PS. I dont know much about politics, but then again I want pure world for future generations.

ALSO, capitalism=Lex Talionis (laws of jungle). In many ways.

This is just the way I see it NOW(!) might change the more I read but now its like this. I think about WORLD not just MYSELF or MY countrys interests. I would die if africa would change that way. I give no value (well not much) on my own life, its pretty boring in here.

Also I will remember 9/11 (year 1973)

[cheka]

While capitalism gives us leaders like Bush, Communism gives us leaders like joseph stalin and Slobodan Milosevic, who murder millions of their own people. Now i definately do not agree with any of Bush's policy, but you cannot use him as a capitalist scapegoat.

[EneME]

So go ahead, give a summary of why you dislike the economic model that most of the world currently lives under.
Well, Capitalism or "greed" has affected me and my family very deeply so I'm very biased. All I have to say is that I'm from El Salvador...lol I could end it there but, I don't think it would do it justice. My mom worked in a sweatshop for 15 years, and I have family that still do. Crime and violence is rampant in ES because we are expected to keep up with the first world, when people only make on average 5 dollars a day. The majority of our land is owned by foreign companies (United Fruit, Dole, etc) and large land owners who export their products, leaving the people they exploit for their labor, hungry. In the hopes of changing the situation, those who challenged these foreign companies were exterminated by the thousands by these companies and the governments that benefited from it (capitalism made this okay). This resulted in a civil war, that could have been avoided. I won't go into more detail about my personal experience, but you get the view point I'm coming from. Its atrocious how governments have no morals when it comes to backing up corporations and how interwoven government and capital is. I've seen the hunger and violence that has been created in the name of "capitalism" and I don't think anything justifies that...everyone deserves to live a life without hunger, deaths on a daily basis, and exploitation.

[insurgency03]

ir just sucks ass u know. the idea that some people can naturally be better than others is just plain wrong. if that were true why would it be in human nature to strive so hard for equality.