The Red Flag / hammer & sickle

[PRC-UTE]

comrades,

does anyone know where/when the red flag w/ the hammer & sickle was first used?

I've tried to google it but couldn't come up with a decent history of the flag and its symbols.

Thanks in advance.

[Palmares]

When it was first used? Fuck... presumably around Marx's time maybe? I dunoo, because the starting of the ideology does not necessitate that the symbolism derived from it originated from the same time.

Are you already aware of the meaning of them? Red is the blood of the people (e.g. the blood that has been shed by them), and the hammer/sickle represents the instruments of the workers.

Sorry I couldn't help more.

[PRC-UTE]

thanks for the help, comrade.

yeah, I assumed that the hammer & sickle symbolised the workers. . . and I knew the meaning of the red flag from the song. apparently the song itself was written by an English commie.

I'll keep looking for historical references to the red flag and all that; mostly what I'm wondering is whether or not it's pre-bolshevik, which I assume it is.

[YKTMX]

I think the red flag is from English Revolutionary time.

[DaCuBaN]

Well...


The hammer and sickle itself, originate from the unique Russian unity of the peasants (the sickle) with the workers (the hammer) who together formed the Soviet Russian state. The Red field is symbolism of the blood that has been spilt by workers the world over in the fight for their emancipation, and was directly inherited from the red banner flown at the Paris Commune; the original and hitherto “base” symbol of a worker’s government flag. The single yellow star is both the representation of the life and immense energy of the sun, empty because within is the blood or production of workers struggle; and also the five points of the star symbolize the single unity and international representation of the government — each of the five points is representative of the five (up to then known/recognized) continents.
Brian Basgen (Marxists Internet Archive Director), 07 Jul 2000




Soviet flag with hammer, sickle and star was not created in 1918! It was adopted in 1923. The star on the flag was red with yellow border (not plain red). Only the coat of arms and some military colours were with hammer and sickle in 1918. Hammer and sickle existed in soviet symbolism since 1917.
Victor Lomantsov, 08 Jul 2000 and 09 Jul 2000


http://flagspot.net/flags/su.html

On a bizarre note:


Hammer: "Is not my word like fire and like a hammer that shatters the rock?" Jeremiah 23:29

Sickle: "Thrust in your sickle and reap for the harvest of earth is ripe."
Revelation 14:15

Star: "Until the day dawns and the Morning Star arises in your heart."
2 Peter 1:19

Red Flag: "The blood of Jesus." He has redeemed every nation ... every nation shall serve Him.
1 Peter 1:19


http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0667...-_Soviet_f.html (http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0667_Gorbachev_-_Soviet_f.html)

[Palmares]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 01:24 AM
On a bizarre note:
Bizarre? Not at all. I'm sure all communists use the bible as the greatest authority. ;)

Good work DaCuBaN.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 02:06 AM
yeah, I assumed that the hammer & sickle symbolised the workers. . . and I knew the meaning of the red flag from the song. apparently the song itself was written by an English commie.
Irish actually.

[__ca va?]

But where does the red star come from??

[Palmares]

I don't think the red star would require much more of an explanation than that of the fact that the red symbolises the blood of the proletariat. Stars are common symbols, so I think it could have come from anywhere. But is the red star distinctively 'communist'? It can be, but I think rather it was perhaps just a modern adpated thing (even if it has been around longer - perhaps like the Cuban flag, etc), as in using a popular and strong symbol, the star, and giving it the symbolism of the colour red.

But honestly, I really don't know. :unsure:

[BOZG]

Couple of explanations for the star, specifically because of the 5 points. One being to represent the 5 populated continents and the other to represent 5 different exploited groupings in society that constituted the proleteriate, though I can't remember what all 5 were. Possibly other explanations.

[PRC-UTE]

good work, dacuban and BOZG, thanks for the info.

should have known that the song was written by an irishman! ;)

[RedAnarchist]

http://www.comms.dcu.ie/sheehanh/rf-lyrics.htm

[redstar2000]

The London river-workers, who supported the mobs that poured through the streets in the spring of 1768, invented the red flag as a token of radical discontent.

London, the Biography by Peter Ackroyd, London, Chatto & Windus, 2000, p.208.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)

A site about communist ideas

[ComradeChris]

I heard that the Hammer and the Sickle represent the unity of the Peasants and the Industrial workers that seemed unique to Russia. I would assume the symbol emerged maybe during the 1905 revolution?

And the Star I heard is supposed to symbolize the government looking over us, or some crap like that. I know Leninism places governmental authority higher than true communism, so it could be that they thought they were a little higher than the average Peasant and Industrial worker so they put it above. That's just my speculation.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 03:11 PM


And the Star I heard is supposed to symbolize the government looking over us, or some crap like that. I know Leninism places governmental authority higher than true communism, so it could be that they thought they were a little higher than the average Peasant and Industrial worker so they put it above. That's just my speculation.
:lol: No shit.

The Red Star, importantly, is five pointed. This represents the hand (five fingers, geddit?) of the working class, which, when clenched makes a fist. We use the fist to protect ourselves and smash the enemy! :D

[Conghaileach]

It was Dzerzhinsky (sp?) who designed the hammer and sickle, and the five-sided star. There are many interpretations of why there are five sides, but I think the most accepted one is that it represents the five groups that make up the proletariat - the (industrial) workers, peasants, soldiers, students, and intellectuals (that is to say, the workers who work with their brains as opposed to their hands, I believe). And of course it's red to symbolise the blood spilt by workers in their fight for freedom.

[BOZG]

I was hoping that someone could remember the 5 branches of the proleteriat. Thanks.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by BOZG+Sep 22 2004, 05:09 PM--> (BOZG @ Sep 22 2004, 05:09 PM)
[email protected] 22 2004, 02:06 AM
yeah, I assumed that the hammer & sickle symbolised the workers. . . and I knew the meaning of the red flag from the song. apparently the song itself was written by an English commie.
Irish actually. [/b]
Well, an Irishman in England. Jim Connell was a Fenian and highly active in the trade union movement in England.

I chuckled when I saw the comment. It reminded me of a blurb at the back of The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists: "the first great English novel about the class war" - and it was written by an Irishman.

[PRC-UTE]

Well, an Irishman in England. Jim Connell was a Fenian and highly active in the trade union movement in England.

I chuckled when I saw the comment. It reminded me of a blurb at the back of The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists: "the first great English novel about the class war" - and it was written by an Irishman.

Glad that I could make you laugh. Actually that happens a lot and sometimes makes me angry. I&#39;ve heard clueless academics claim oscar wilde, O&#39;Casey and even Yeats as English writers&#33; <_< They can&#39;t take Liam OF since he wrote so many stories as Gaeilge.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX+Dec 7 2004, 12:15 PM--> (YouKnowTheyMurderedX @ Dec 7 2004, 12:15 PM)
[email protected] 7 2004, 03:11 PM


And the Star I heard is supposed to symbolize the government looking over us, or some crap like that. I know Leninism places governmental authority higher than true communism, so it could be that they thought they were a little higher than the average Peasant and Industrial worker so they put it above. That&#39;s just my speculation.
:lol: No shit.

The Red Star, importantly, is five pointed. This represents the hand (five fingers, geddit?) of the working class, which, when clenched makes a fist. We use the fist to protect ourselves and smash the enemy&#33; :D [/b]
Why didn&#39;t they just use the clenched fist then? But, I never thought of it that way. I guess it&#39;s like Canada with the number of points in the Maple Leaf representing the number of provinces and territories. There&#39;s all sorts of subtle things like that in symbolism.

[trotsky_lives]

Did you know Liam OF was a Trotskyist.... or at least considered himself one.

[PRC-UTE]

I knew he was a revolutionary socialist, but didn&#39;t know he was specifically a Trot, interesting. There&#39;s been more than a few famous Irish Trots, I think Bernadette Devlin was once.

[American_Trotskyist]

The Red has abolutly nothing to do with England. It came from the Paris Commune when the socialist there put it up in hounor of the dead workers, however it was the color of socialism before that but specifically for the dead. The hammer represents the proletariate and the sickle the peasantry united. It was created after the october revolution and after the All Russian Congress of Peasants in 1917 - 18 when they decided to be with the Bolsheviks. The star, this is the one part im not sure of, represents a new star for the oppressed masses to look for, it represents a new dawn in Human History.

[Commie Rat]

the furthest bak ive seen the H&S used was in por-russia poster during the second world war has anyone seen the one how there a factory and fighter planes in the background and in the foreground there is a man holdiing the hammer and a woman holding the sickle up in the air and they cross over like in the H&S and ther is writing in the bottom in russian like &#39; the workers have power.... or sum fing like that

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 07:58 PM
I knew he was a revolutionary socialist, but didn&#39;t know he was specifically a Trot, interesting. There&#39;s been more than a few famous Irish Trots, I think Bernadette Devlin was once.
I don&#39;t know if Devlin ever identified herself in such a way, but she was one of the founding members of People&#39;s Democracy, which in its last days descended into a Trot sect (this would have been long after Devlin left, by now she&#39;d been in and out of the IRSP and shot by the SAS/death squad). The PD eventually decided to infiltrate Sinn Féin and ensure it continued on a left-wing path, but a small minority refused to go along with this and set up Socialist Democracy.

[YKTMX]

Why didn&#39;t they just use the clenched fist then?

I don&#39;t know. Maybe it&#39;s for simplicity. A five sided red star is much more "universal" than a clenched fist. Also, the star has other metaphorical meanings.

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 12:08 PM

Why didn&#39;t they just use the clenched fist then?

I don&#39;t know. Maybe it&#39;s for simplicity. A five sided red star is much more "universal" than a clenched fist. Also, the star has other metaphorical meanings.
Anything can have metaphorical meaning. I could paste a piece of shit on a flag and say it symbolizes the dirty capitalists. :lol:

[Commie Rat]

we should do that

www.revolutionarycraponaflag.org

[Zingu]

The Red Banner represents the blood spilt by the proletariat (the matyrs of the Commune) to set up a revolutionary society, sort of to represent the undying struggle, at any cost. Now it is more of a tribute in rememberance of the Communards.

The red star, red, as stated above why, the five points represent the 5 recognized contients at the time, to symbolize a world wide revolution (world wide Communism in other words).

Hammer and Sickle got covered I guess.

[h&s]

A hilariously innaccurate biblical interpretation of the origins of the hammer and sickle for you:

WHOSE HAMMER AND SICKLE?

By

Bertrand L. Comparet

The communists have taken as their emblem a red flag, with the hammer and sickle imposed on it. The red symbolizes the blood they intend to shed in every country they conquer. While the hammer and sickle are ostensibly symbols of the factory workers and the peasants, we know that they make both of these classes equally their slaves. Whips and bayonets would be more honest symbols, but the communists were never honest. To be honest, a man would have to violate all the basic principles of communism.

It is interesting to trace symbols to their true origin and meaning. All communists are in opposition to Yahweh. Even by universal agreement, even the communists themselves say that they are on the left; this is exactly as Yahweh classifies them. In Matthew 25:31-34, 41 Yahshua says, "When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory; and before Him shall be gathered all nations; and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." He then continues, "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels". So be it&#33;

Let&#39;s get back to the hammer and sickle. It is part of Yahweh&#39;s irony that just as the communists borrowed one symbol of their own coming judgment and destruction by being in the left wing, so also have they borrowed symbols of their own judgment in their hammer and sickle. Yahweh has His own hammer and sickle, which He will use to dispose of His enemies.

Brezhnev thinks that his communist hammer will shatter the free world, however he didn&#39;t originate this idea. Those who first planned the evil he is now trying to execute, had it all in mind. They planned to keep the old Babylonian system going in all its phases, religious, economic and political, this was a weapon to use for this purpose. This is why the Bible continues to prophecy about great Babylon, centuries after the old Babylonian city and empire had ceased to exist. Yahweh also had this in mind and gave the answer to it 25 centuries ago. In Jeremiah 50:23 Yahweh says, "How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken&#33; How is Babylon become a desolation among all nations?"

There is one hammer, which will shatter all opposition. All things must measure up to the standard set by Yahweh&#39;s word and all defiance will be broken. Jeremiah 23:29 records, "Is not My word like a fire? Saith Yahweh; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" Brezhnev and his masters that are operating in all nations will soon find this is true.

Communism is preparing to attack and conquer all the Christian nations. Yahweh calls the Christian nations a vine, His vine. In John chapter 15 Yahshua says, "Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye except ye abide in Me. I am the vine, ye are the branches; he that abideth in Me and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit. If ye abide in Me and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you". The reds and their masters who created communism and imported it into Russia, were called the false vine, the vine of the earth. In Deuteronomy 32:31-33 we read, "For their rock is not as a rock, even our enemies themselves being judges; for their vine is the vine of Sodom and of the fields of Gomorrah; their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter; their wine is the poison of dragons and the cruel venom of asps".

When the Russians make their attack, they are injuring Yahweh&#39;s vine, in punishment they will be reaped with Yahweh&#39;s sickle. The prophet Joel tells it thus, "For a nation is come upon My land, strong and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion. He hath laid My vine waste; A great people and strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. Proclaim ye this to the nations. Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. Assemble yourselves and come, all ye heathen and gather yourselves round about; thither cause thy mighty ones to come down. Let the heathen be wakened and come up to the valley of Yahweh&#39;s judgment: for I will sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down, for the press is full, the vats overflow, for their wickedness is great".

Revelation chapter 14 continues the account. "And I looked and behold, a white cloud and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on His head a golden crown and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in Thy sickle and reap: for the time is come for Thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And He that sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the alter, which had power over fire and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle saying, thrust in thy sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of Yahweh. And the winepress was trodden without the city and blood came out of the winepress even unto the horse&#39;s bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs" (200 miles). Not communisms sickle but Yahweh&#39;s, does the reaping. It is communism and the Jews who created it and now rule it throughout the world, which are reaped.

Yahweh&#39;s great judgment is executed by Yahshua upon His return. Revelation 19:15-16 says of Him, "Out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Yahweh". Therefore Isaiah 63:1-4 states, "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? This that is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength? I speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel and thy garments like Him that treadeth in the wine vat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with Me: for I will tread them in Mine anger and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments and I will stain all My raiment. For the day of vengeance is in Mine heart and the year of My redeemed is come".

The Reds think they have contrived something new, a secret plot which will take everyone by surprise. Yahweh foresaw it all many centuries ago, Russia&#39;s attack upon us and its failure, was long foretold. In His scorn of their wickedness, Yahweh even led them to adopt as their emblems, the symbols which proclaim His judgment upon them. In the words of Psalm chapter 2, "Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take council together against Yahweh, against His anointed saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: Yahweh shall have them in derision. Then shall He speak to them in His wrath and vex them in His sore pleasure".

The hammer that will shatter the nations is the hammer of Yahweh&#39;s word, destroying all opposition. The sickle that will reap the nations of the wicked, is Yahweh&#39;s sickle. The blood that will be shed is that which will flow from the winepress of the wrath of Yahweh, the blood of His enemies. The next time you see the communist flag, remember that it bears the symbols of their own judgment and punishment.

[fuerzasocialista]

Does anyone have a really good graphic of the hammer and sickle? I&#39;m seriously considering getting it as a tattoo.

[commiecrusader]

Best ones I could find doing a Google-search:

[commiecrusader]

Another one:

[commiecrusader]

And this is a cool picture that I&#39;m gonna make my avatar, but you couldn&#39;t really do it as a tattoo:

[commiecrusader]

I was thinking of getting this tattooed on the inside of my forearm but haven&#39;t yet as I reckon it would make it hard to get a job lol:

[ComradeChris]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 11:38 AM
Does anyone have a really good graphic of the hammer and sickle? I&#39;m seriously considering getting it as a tattoo.
Hey me too ;) &#33; I nice big one covering like 3/4 of my back.


we should do that

www.revolutionarycraponaflag.org

My brother presented a very derogatory spin on the US flag. Change all the stars to swastikas, then put a little picture of Iraq (or an oil well, etc) in the center. :lol:

[Commie Rat]

nice has any one seen the anti-amerikan dollar bill in the grapics thread?

[fuerzasocialista]

thanks for the images. its hard deciding which style to get....

[Comrad-Horky]

The red flag with the hammer and the sickle is the symbol for the sovjet-union.
They used the hammer and the sickle because it was a symbol for the Working-Classes.
The way the two tools are combined is because it looked like a sun, the sun over the Sovjet-Union.

That&#39;s why&#33;

[RedAnarchist]

The Stalinist Soviets stole our symbol, so we should try our best to take back the hammer and sickle&#33; :hammer:

[flyby]

the hammer is the working class
the sickle is the peasants.

so hammer and sickle was the symbol of the revolutinary united front of workers and peasants (including as the basis for socialist power).

The star is the symbol of the final goal -- classless communist society.... it guides us and pulls us forward like a star used for navigation.

[USAcommunist]

The link below will take you to a site that covers every aspect,history and construction of the hammer and sickle flag/emblem.---Scroll down page and follow it&#39;s links,covers all hammer and sickle designs.


http://flagspot.net/flags/su.html

[American_Trotskyist]

Some what. The Hammer and Sickler are supposed to be the Industrial Workers and the Agricultural workers united, by the way MAOISM isn&#39;t Leninist or Marxist.

[Commie Rat]

[im a noob] wat is the difference ?

[American_Trotskyist]

Does anyone know what is the difference between a white hammer and sickle and a yellow one?