"Real" IRA claims attack on RUC barracks

[PRC-UTE]

Oglaigh na hEireann on Derry attack
Posted on 9/9/2004 at 01:33:30 by Dualta

Statement issued Wed. 8th Sept., 2004.

Volunteers of the Derry Brigade, Oglaigh na hEireann today attacked construction workers at the Strand Road RUC base. Two volunteers armed with assault rifles fired shots at those working on an extension to the barracks. They safely returned to base.
We refer to our statement released following our attack on Shackleton Barracks earlier this year when we stated that no further warnings would be given to those supplying or entering Crown Forces’ bases.

What happened was two volunteers walked up with AK's and sprayed a few cartridges at the police station and made some builders have to duck as a warning!

I was fairly surprised by this as I thought the RIRA claimed to be on ceasefire.

Taken from the 32csm's message board:


Taken from the 32's message board ...

IRA carried out Derry shooting
Posted on 9/9/2004 at 18:14:09 by Críostoír


The Real IRA says it carried out yesterday's gun attack at Strand Road police station in Derry.

It says it was targeting builders working at the station.

The group say two people opened fire on the station.

Those shooting narrowly missed the workmen when he fired at least 30 shots from an A-K 47 automatic rifle just minutes before children arrived at a nearby creche.

A car belonging to a doctor was one of three riddled with bullets.

The police say it is a miracle no-one was killed.

[cormacobear]

Ceasefire or no it may be a response to the 32 North Attack by Loyalists.

[PRC-UTE]

Ceasefire or no it may be a response to the 32 North Attack by Loyalists.


good point.

anyway, these guys who did the shooting :ph34r: will have to watch their backs. The provos aren't too happy about it.

[cormacobear]

They were shooting at a police station and got away. I wouldn't worry too hard. From what i've read many there are becomeing angy with the lack of progress with the representational reforms. The Candian General in charge of destroying weapons has said several times he feels the IRA has been cooperating. But who's ever going to know how many guns there are on either side. They need to get moveing solving the political problems if they ever hope to avoid another conflict.

[Invader Zim]

Shouldn't have used an AK-47, that will teach them.

[PRC-UTE]

Shouldn't have used an AK-47, that will teach them.

Why?

The preferred weapon of the IRA is the m-16, but the AK actually has more stopping power. However good luck trying to hit anything over three hundred yards away! :lol:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 01:47 AM

Why?

The preferred weapon of the IRA is the m-16, but the AK actually has more stopping power. However good luck trying to hit anything over three hundred yards away! :lol:
However good luck trying to hit anything over three hundred yards away! :lol:

Exactly...

The first shot is usually accurate, but after that...

[PRC-UTE]

Exactly...

The first shot is usually accurate, but after that...

I've heard that, I know the M-16 is in many ways better and has almost no kick.


But who's ever going to know how many guns there are on either side. They need to get moveing solving the political problems if they ever hope to avoid another conflict.

The PIRA has given up most of its guns. But it won't matter in the long run.

As this attack proves, as long as there is British rule in Ireland, there will be armed resistance.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM

I've heard that, I know the M-16 is in many ways better and has almost no kick.



The PIRA has given up most of its guns. But it won't matter in the long run.

As this attack proves, as long as there is British rule in Ireland, there will be armed resistance.
I've heard that, I know the M-16 is in many ways better and has almost no kick.

I couldn't confirm it either way.


As this attack proves, as long as there is British rule in Ireland, there will be armed resistance.

Out of interest if the brits were either voted or kicked out of ireland by force, do you think that the conflict would end?

I dont, if anything I think it would escelate.

[Louis Pio]

I've heard that, I know the M-16 is in many ways better and has almost no kick.

I couldn't confirm it either way

Well it is however a shit gun, the thing is you can only use it as a gun. The old AK47 was much more diverse

[PRC-UTE]

Out of interest if the brits were either voted or kicked out of ireland by force, do you think that the conflict would end?

I dont, if anything I think it would escelate.

It could only end. The Brits armed the loyalists and created the sectarian puppet state in the north. That's the cause of violence.

This started not about republicanism or nationalism - the Catholics demanded their civil rights and were beaten back into the ghetto. Thus the PIRA emerged to defend them. We were driven to armed struggle, we didn't happily embrace it.

The proof of what I'm saying is the south of Ireland. People there really don't care what your religion is for the most part. Protestents can live there safely and English tourists visit all the time.

The northern state can't be reformed. Occupations are inherently undemocratic, so there will always be resistance as long as the British forces of occupation remain.

[PRC-UTE]

Let's hear some other thoughts.

[h&s]

It could only end. The Brits armed the loyalists and created the sectarian puppet state in the north. That's the cause of violence.

And what about the Protestants living in the north? Don't you think they might just get a little bit angry if they lost their country? These were the people who signed in their own blood that they wanted to remain part of the UK. They're not just going to give it up without a fight.

[Daymare17]

One thing's for sure: Individual terror can never solve the conflict. This is a petty bourgeois method not a proletarian one. The Irish terrorists are not one ounce better than the Palestinians who blow up Israeli children, or for that matter, Osama. After 30 years of terrorism, what has been achieved? Nothing. Ireland is further from unity than it has ever been. Only workers' unity despite religion and nation can solve the national question in Ireland.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 11 2004, 10:17 AM
And what about the Protestants living in the north? Don't you think they might just get a little bit angry if they lost their country? These were the people who signed in their own blood that they wanted to remain part of the UK. They're not just going to give it up without a fight.
That was the logic behind my thinking, really. The loyallist paramilitaries are thugs and mob like criminals in many cases, if they had an excuse...

[choekiewoekie]

A question, because i have absolutely no idea what to think in this matter. Are you guys pro or anti Ira? And why? I am very interested to hear what you think.

[PRC-UTE]

A question, because i have absolutely no idea what to think in this matter. Are you guys pro or anti Ira? And why? I am very interested to hear what you think.

I'm not pro-IRA, I support the IRSP and we are a seperate movement who are commited to a republic run by the working class. I know that the way forward is to combine the struggle for national liberation and socialist revolution.

However the IRA have been mostly a response to British violence in the six counties, so I won't condemn them either.


One thing's for sure: Individual terror can never solve the conflict.

Most violence from the IR side is purely defencive in nature, such as shooting at the hated british police.


This is a petty bourgeois method not a proletarian one.

Almost all volunteers are working class and only took up arms to defend their working class ghetto, so that comment doesn't reflect reality at all.


The Irish terrorists are not one ounce better than the Palestinians who blow up Israeli children, or for that matter, Osama.

That's the stupidest comment I've ever heard, you're fucking insane. How is fighting for a secular, Irish republic the same as jihad???!!

How is the fact that the IRA primarily targeted members of the security forces and only rarely civilians compareable to al-quada?


Only workers' unity despite religion and nation can solve the national question in Ireland.

We will unite over both class issues and national liberation. Both must happen for either to succeed. To first unite apolitically over class issues while neglecting the national question is dishonest.

This question has come up again and again in socialist circles for over a hundred years and the answer remains the same: that we can't waiver on the national issue or you will be compromised by loyalist anti-catholic chauvinism.


And what about the Protestants living in the north? Don't you think they might just get a little bit angry if they lost their country? These were the people who signed in their own blood that they wanted to remain part of the UK. They're not just going to give it up without a fight.

That was the logic behind my thinking, really. The loyallist paramilitaries are thugs and mob like criminals in many cases, if they had an excuse...

I see what you're getting at, but the loyalists always make threatening noises. They're not dangerous enough to be a threat unless the Brits continue to arm and encourage them.

As far as after the Brits are gone, if they continue their anti-Catholic porgroms?

The INLA can handle them.

[DaCuBaN]

Only workers' unity despite religion and nation can solve the national question in Ireland

Well said. I almost choked when I read this though:


To first unite apolitically over class issues while neglecting the national question is dishonest.

What on earth gave you this idea? It's only dishonest if what matters is nationalist goals: I submit that they mean jack shit!. Whilst you may dislike this, nationalist goals have no corrolation to socialist nor indeed communist goals - they are a seperate entity, and devalue the IRSP immensely. If they were the RSPoI, you'd be surprised the difference it would make to my opinion: It's a matter of priority.


That's the stupidest comment I've ever heard, you're fucking insane. How is fighting for a secular, Irish republic the same as jihad???!!

How is the fact that the IRA primarily targeted members of the security forces and only rarely civilians compareable to al-quada?


Let's not turn this into that debate - the IRA have hit targets with no military (or even economic as you could argue the WTC was) significance in the past - my own father spent several days in hospital after one of the 70's bomb attacks on London - a bus station for crying out loud. I don't dispute that much worse was done in the other direction, of course.

But let's avoid this: It leads nowhere.


I see what you're getting at, but the loyalists always make threatening noises. They're not dangerous enough to be a threat unless the Brits continue to arm and encourage them.

They have no means themselves? If the seperatists can seek backing to continue militia actions, the unionists can too. Can you not see that it will merely end with y'all dead?

[PRC-UTE]

What on earth gave you this idea? It's only dishonest if what matters is nationalist goals: I submit that they mean jack shit!. Whilst you may dislike this, nationalist goals have no corrolation to socialist nor indeed communist goals - they are a seperate entity, and devalue the IRSP immensely. If they were the RSPoI, you'd be surprised the difference it would make to my opinion: It's a matter of priority.

All socialists agree that British rule in Ireland has to end. The only real difference between the IRSP and the rest of the left is that they wish to first unite the working class and then later end British rule. We say both at the same time.

If you don't confront British rule in Ireland as part of a socialist programme, the workers will still be divided and you will cozy up to sectarian reactionaries.

The big Trotskyist guru in Ireland, Eamonn McCann, preached that loyalists were latent socialists and he tried to form an alliance with the PUP or some other group of monarchists pretending to be socialists.

Turns out the group he had allied himself with were the scum hurling pipe bombs at catholic school girls! :blink:


the IRA have hit targets with no military (or even economic as you could argue the WTC was) significance in the past

I didn't say they didn't; only that they rarely did and their primary strategy wasn't killing civilians but the security forces.


my own father spent several days in hospital after one of the 70's bomb attacks on London - a bus station for crying out loud

I'm sorry for that and don't think that was a legitimate target at all.


They have no means themselves?

Not if they're disbanded and, in a revolutionary situation replaced by open, democratic workers militias that are non-sectarian. Our goal is to unite protestant catholic and liberate Ireland. I don't think that monarchism will have much appeal in that situation.

And anyway, what is your alternative? Maintain the awful status quo? Despite the risks, imperialism must be defeated.

[DaCuBaN]

what is your alternative?

European socialism: One of the key powers imperialism has is it's material power: It can increase the size of the ballpark exponentially, leaving socialists - who as a general rule crave self-determination and smaller political blocks - looking like throwbacks

The attitude by many towards marxism concretes this, as far as I'm concerned. The question is how can this be counteracted? By increasing our own scope; by fighting instead for socialist scotland/ireland; socialist UK; socialist Europe - by matching them peg for peg as the stakes increase.

We've been on this ground before, and I'll state it again: I don't care whether the parliament is in Edinburgh, London, Brussels, Washington; it's all the same: What matters is how we are governed, and the elements for socialist rule exist neither in Scotland, N Ireland, RoIreland, England nor any other nation close to us: The fight is too big to allow these smaller concerns to get in the way.


If you don't confront British rule in Ireland as part of a socialist programme, the workers will still be divided

This is the part I fail to understand: Why should nationality be a division? Why should we care? Socialism itself will break down the political machines as they exist today, so why fight a battle that victory for socialism would make irrelevant?

[KrazyRabidSheep]

I grew up in Belfast, in a very Irish family, and I feel quite strongly for N. Ireland's liberation.

I used to think the IRA were heros.

Now I'm not so sure.

My older brother and a cousin were arrested for being in the IRA (my brother was, cousin was unjustly arrested). It was then I wanted to join when I was old enough.

8 years later, and I'd never think of it.

They have the right idea, and the heart. I don't feel, however that the IRA is going about the right way. I've calmed down, mellowed out, and now I'm more pacifist. I don't feel anybody deserves to be killed.

But additionaly, there has been resistance in Ireland forever. Resistance only works if it is well organised and with enough support. At it's present course, the resistance is not going to work out well.

If innocents are killed, it will fail. The liberators must be martyrs and victims, otherwise outsiders will see justice in oppression and occupation. Two wrongs do make a right, but only when it suits the purpose of those in power and thier media.

Perhaps a more diplomatic alternative, or perhaps the resistance needs to be conducted otherwise, but either way the IRA needs to try something different. . .but what?

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was no accident.

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 09:49 PM

I'm not pro-IRA, I support the IRSP and we are a seperate movement who are commited to a republic run by the working class. I know that the way forward is to combine the struggle for national liberation and socialist revolution.

However the IRA have been mostly a response to British violence in the six counties, so I won't condemn them either.



Most violence from the IR side is purely defencive in nature, such as shooting at the hated british police.



Almost all volunteers are working class and only took up arms to defend their working class ghetto, so that comment doesn't reflect reality at all.



That's the stupidest comment I've ever heard, you're fucking insane. How is fighting for a secular, Irish republic the same as jihad???!!

How is the fact that the IRA primarily targeted members of the security forces and only rarely civilians compareable to al-quada?



We will unite over both class issues and national liberation. Both must happen for either to succeed. To first unite apolitically over class issues while neglecting the national question is dishonest.

This question has come up again and again in socialist circles for over a hundred years and the answer remains the same: that we can't waiver on the national issue or you will be compromised by loyalist anti-catholic chauvinism.



I see what you're getting at, but the loyalists always make threatening noises. They're not dangerous enough to be a threat unless the Brits continue to arm and encourage them.

As far as after the Brits are gone, if they continue their anti-Catholic porgroms?

The INLA can handle them.
Marx and Engels on Irish terrorism (from M&E Correspondance On Ireland (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/letters/subject/ireland.htm))

On 13 December 1867 a group of Fenians attempted to free Fenian leaders from Clerkenwell Prison with a bomb which only destroyed a number of neighbouring houses, killing a few people and wounding hundreds. The British press used the occasion for a campaign of anti-Irish hysteria.

Marx: "This latest Fenian exploit in Clerkenwell is a great folly. The London masses, who have shown much sympathy for Ireland, will be enraged by it and driven into the arms of the government party. One cannot expect the London proletarians to let themselves be blown up for the benefit of Fenian emissaries. Secret, melodramatic conspiracies of this kind are, in general, more or less doomed to failure."

Engels: "You are perfectly right about the Fenians. The vile deeds of the English must not allow us to forget that most of the leaders of this sect are jackasses and some of them exploiters, and that we can, under no circumstances, make ourselves responsible for the idiocies that are perpetrated in any conspiracy. That there will be some, is certain...The Clerkenwell folly was obviously the work of a few special fanatics; it is the misfortune of all conspiracies that they lead to such acts of folly because ‘we really must do something, we really must get up to something’. Especially in America there has been a lot of bluster amongst this explosive and incendiary fraternity, and then along come some individual jackasses and instigate this kind of nonsense. At the same time, these man-eaters are for the most part the greatest of cowards, including that man Allen who already appears to have turned Queen’s evidence. And then the notion that you can free Ireland by setting fire to some London tailor’s shop!"

[BOZG]

Almost all volunteers are working class and only took up arms to defend their working class ghetto, so that comment doesn't reflect reality at all.

This is extremely simplistic. You can be working class while being of an incredibly middle class conscience. Just because some people from the working class take up this method, it does not make it a proleteriat method of action. Individual terror has done nothing but to strengthen the state and to give it a mandate for repression against even those who have nothing to do with paramilitary struggle.



The big Trotskyist guru in Ireland, Eamonn McCann, preached that loyalists were latent socialists and he tried to form an alliance with the PUP or some other group of monarchists pretending to be socialists.

Please do not consider McCann the leading Trotskyist in Ireland. This man actually said that the only reason, unionists didn't want a united Ireland was because nobody bothered to really raise it with them. He's a joke.

It's interesting though how Irish Republicans/Nationalists seem to think that they're some sort of superior beings who can do no wrong when a unionist party is mentioned, as if every person from a nationalist community is incredibly open to the other community. You'd swear secterian bigotry was non-existant in Catholic areas.



To first unite apolitically over class issues while neglecting the national question is dishonest.

You seem to miss the whole point. How are you planning to have a united Ireland when there's a larger community which currently is oppsed to it? The only solution is to unite these communities to reach an agreement, something which will never happen on a national basis but only on working class unity, to smash the bigots.



One other thing, what is your opinion on Leninism and the vanguard party?

[Daymare17]

I'm not pro-IRA, I support the IRSP and we are a seperate movement who are commited to a republic run by the working class. I know that the way forward is to combine the struggle for national liberation and socialist revolution.

However the IRA have been mostly a response to British violence in the six counties, so I won't condemn them either.

The only way to free Ireland is not through terrorist attacks but through the united movement of the working class there. Ireland can never be free unless the Irish workers are united.


Most violence from the IR side is purely defencive in nature, such as shooting at the hated british police.

First of all, "most violence" is not an argument. It means that "some" violence is directed against innocent civilians, which is an abomination.

Secondly, individual terror against policemen can not free Ireland. Today Ireland is further from freedom and unity than ever before. I strongly recommend Trotsky's Why Marxists Oppose Individual Terrorism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1909/tia09.htm). It completely demolishes the IRA's case.


Almost all volunteers are working class and only took up arms to defend their working class ghetto, so that comment doesn't reflect reality at all.

I didn't say that the IRA was a petty bourgeois body. I said that its method were petty bourgeois. The strength of the working class is its unity and its numbers. Its methods are strikes, general strikes, mass demonstrations and armed insurrections. Individual terror has never been a working class method and has never led to anything. As Trotsky said in the article, terror must be the terror of the masses to be successful.


That's the stupidest comment I've ever heard, you're fucking insane. How is fighting for a secular, Irish republic the same as jihad???!!

With regard to the IRA, not abstract "fighting". The IRA methods are precisely the same. Individual terrorism against civilians. Not basing itself upon the mass movement of the working class. And invariably leading to opposite results of those intended.


How is the fact that the IRA primarily targeted members of the security forces and only rarely civilians compareable to al-quada?

As DaCuban noted, it is a lie that they only rarely targeted civilians. But even if they only targeted one single civilian in their whole history, it would be an unspeakable crime. Because all it does is to spread anti-Irish sentiment in the British working class and strengthen the state. At best, it reconciles the Irish workers to that they have revolutionary superheroes to do the work for them. From that standpoint it is the flipside of charity. For a Marxist, terror (against the exploiters, that is, not terror against civilians which is a total abomination) is permissible only if the mass of the people are mobilised in a revolution and are actively in favour of the terror.


I see what you're getting at, but the loyalists always make threatening noises. They're not dangerous enough to be a threat unless the Brits continue to arm and encourage them.

As far as after the Brits are gone, if they continue their anti-Catholic porgroms?

The INLA can handle them.

The trade unions are still united are they not (I'm not at all an expert on Ireland)? The Socialist Appeal tendency has called for a withdrawal of British forces, but linked this demand to a workers' defence force based on the trade unions. That would be the only way to combat sectarian bloodshed in case of a British pullout.

Marx and Engels on Irish terrorism (from M&E Correspondance On Ireland (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/letters/subject/ireland.htm))

On 13 December 1867 a group of Fenians attempted to free Fenian leaders from Clerkenwell Prison with a bomb which only destroyed a number of neighbouring houses, killing a few people and wounding hundreds. The British press used the occasion for a campaign of anti-Irish hysteria.

Marx: "This latest Fenian exploit in Clerkenwell is a great folly. The London masses, who have shown much sympathy for Ireland, will be enraged by it and driven into the arms of the government party. One cannot expect the London proletarians to let themselves be blown up for the benefit of Fenian emissaries. Secret, melodramatic conspiracies of this kind are, in general, more or less doomed to failure."

Engels: "You are perfectly right about the Fenians. The vile deeds of the English must not allow us to forget that most of the leaders of this sect are jackasses and some of them exploiters, and that we can, under no circumstances, make ourselves responsible for the idiocies that are perpetrated in any conspiracy. That there will be some, is certain...The Clerkenwell folly was obviously the work of a few special fanatics; it is the misfortune of all conspiracies that they lead to such acts of folly because ‘we really must do something, we really must get up to something’. Especially in America there has been a lot of bluster amongst this explosive and incendiary fraternity, and then along come some individual jackasses and instigate this kind of nonsense. At the same time, these man-eaters are for the most part the greatest of cowards, including that man Allen who already appears to have turned Queen’s evidence. And then the notion that you can free Ireland by setting fire to some London tailor’s shop!"

What do you think Marx and Engels would have said about the exploits of the IRA over the last 30 years? Which ended precisely in their leaders "turning Queen's evidence" in the Good Friday agreement.

Have you read Alan Woods' Open Letter To Irish Republicans, http://www.marxist.com/ireland/republicanism_intro.html. It promotes a crystal clear class position and, IMHO, helps to bring the Irish liberation movement out of its frightful confusion and madness.

Comradely

[PRC-UTE]

One other thing, what is your opinion on Leninism and the vanguard party?

The vanguard is the most revolutionary and class conscious elements of the working class. That's it.

The IRSP are not the "vanguard party"; we seek to work alongside our fellow proletarians towards revolution.


First of all, "most violence" is not an argument. It means that "some" violence is directed against innocent civilians, which is an abomination.


I agree wholeheartedly, I only refuted your claim that the various IRA's were anything like al-quada. Their methods and goals are not the same. To say otherwise is extreme ignorance.


You seem to miss the whole point. How are you planning to have a united Ireland when there's a larger community which currently is oppsed to it?

Because the class motives for loyalty to the crown will be realigned in a liberated Ireland.


The only solution is to unite these communities to reach an agreement, something which will never happen on a national basis but only on working class unity, to smash the bigots.

Interesting argument.

During the depression there were "relief riots" as catholics and protestantns united over bread and butter issues. The ruling class was terrified, and the potential threat to capitalism was great.

The unity wasn't lasting however, as all the ruling class of the six counties had to do was introduce a few very moderate reforms, wave the union jack and tell the prods to watch their back, the papists are coming! :lol:

So we need working class unity and a princpled stand against imperialism. We need both to win.

Although I dispute some of the specifics that the IRA are like al-quada, etc, it is clear to anyone observing the situation that the IRA's methods have failed. Armed struggle alone will not establish a socialist republic in Ireland, let alone defeat imperialism.

As the IRSP have been saying, it's time for a new departure, to confront imperialism and give the national liberation struggle a working class leadership.


The trade unions are still united are they not (I'm not at all an expert on Ireland)?

No, they're not, and the trade unions in the north are in the hands of loyalists. They've been used in the past to enforce the protestant supremacist status quo, such as bringing down cross-communtiy institutions.


What do you think Marx and Engels would have said about the exploits of the IRA over the last 30 years?

I imagine Marx would've continued to support my movement, the IRSP. After all, his daughter gave money to our predecessor, the ISRP.

Marx critiqued the methods used to pursue Irish national liberation as did Engels, but he actually supported the cause.

I agree with his criticism, and the IRA has failed. That's why we need a joint struggle for national liberation and a workers republic.

Some form of class struggle is vital; unions would be my preference, but are almost impossible in current objective conditions.


It's interesting though how Irish Republicans/Nationalists seem to think that they're some sort of superior beings who can do no wrong when a unionist party is mentioned, as if every person from a nationalist community is incredibly open to the other community. You'd swear secterian bigotry was non-existant in Catholic areas.

I've read several texts by RSF, PSF, the 32 county sovereignty movement and the IRSP about the need to confront racism and bigotry in catholic/republican communities recently.

[DaCuBaN]

If innocents are killed, it will fail. The liberators must be martyrs and victims, otherwise outsiders will see justice in oppression and occupation. Two wrongs do make a right, but only when it suits the purpose of those in power and thier media.


You've just become my favourite pseudo-nationalist. For what it's worth, you have every ounce of my support. If only more people would understand this.