Minorities provoking discrimination ?

[Sovietsky Souyuz]

read this before you rant, as some will rant just by the title,

everyone hates racism, it is a thing to be despised, so dont get thinking i am racist personally, but i just had a random thought, and i think i can safely share it with you people for scrutiny.

i live in england, and whenever i enter a major city centre, i tend to notice lots of small groups, generally males, and each group is contained of different 'minorities', and for the most part ive never seen them do anything particularyl useful, they tend to be mainly intimidating and usually i get a 'fuckin dirty greebo' (which i am not) comment, but then again, dossing around aint a crime......

point two, i was walking through a local area that has been dubbed pleckistan by the local BNP due to tis overwhelming asian population, as i was passing through, i noticed a lot of 'death to whites' and 'islamic jihad 2002' and other not really very constructive slogans, i also had 'your dead white bastard' shouted at me......

my point is, is this a reason that contributes to racism ? people from ethic minorities who seem to find it clever to pick on the ethnic majority ? it cannot ever be helpful for their community and/or image. And no this does not warrant an 'oppressed people' rant, because you cant possibly be oppressed and driving a BMW............

your thoughts if its not too much trouble...........

[Raisa]

<<my point is, is this a reason that contributes to racism ?>>

You could say that, but in the end it boils down to one issue.......
Is someone stupid enough to blame a whole race of people for what some individuals are doing?
Minority or not, we are people and we are not the representatives of a race. We did not even pick it. Burdening someone with that and judging their whole race by their actions is the thing that is contributing racism.

<<And no this does not warrant an &#39;oppressed people&#39; rant, because you cant possibly be oppressed and driving a BMW............>>

someone can drive a BMW, and this is not going to compensate for them being judged and disrespected for their skin color as they try living the everyday life that a white man takes for granted when he is not the one with the eye on him.

[Hampton]

And no this does not warrant an &#39;oppressed people&#39; rant, because you cant possibly be oppressed and driving a BMW

Say this to the person who is pulled over BECAUSE they drive a BMW and is not the right color.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

While the sort of anti-white hatred you describe is rather ignorant, it doesn&#39;t constitute as oppression. A power-deprived, ostracized minority cannot possibly practice racial oppression. And I don&#39;t necessarily condemn that hatred. Judging from the position these people are bullied into, I cannot blame them. And I do not think that these peoples&#39; opinions of whites is the cause of racism and their own marginalization. Their attitude towards whites is a result of oppression. They are the victims. Don&#39;t try to blame them for uniting against the race which oppresses them. If they&#39;re attacked as a race by members of another race, isn&#39;t it obvious that they&#39;ll fight back by targeting that race?

[Urban Rubble]

While the sort of anti-white hatred you describe is rather ignorant, it doesn&#39;t constitute as oppression.

Oppression ? Probably not, depends on how you define it. However, it DOES constitute racism.


And I don&#39;t necessarily condemn that hatred.

Of course not, because you have white guilt written all over you. Hating an entire race of people cannot be justified or rationalized, I don&#39;t care how oppressed the person has been.


Their attitude towards whites is a result of oppression.

No, it is ignorance. What about the millions upon millions of oppressed people who are smart enough not to blame it all on skin color ? Just because you have been put down by people of a certain skin color does not mean you have a free pass to blame it all on their race. It is still ignorant to believe that all white people are evil, I don&#39;t care how oppressed you have been.


If they&#39;re attacked as a race by members of another race, isn&#39;t it obvious that they&#39;ll fight back by targeting that race?

If they&#39;re ignorant, racist fools. Why is it O.K for a minority to believe that white people&#39;s dispicable actions are caused by their skin color but it&#39;s not O.K for a white guy to believe that all black crime is caused by THEIR skin color ?

Let me lay it out like this:

Say there is a white country kid who has never really been around minorities. He comes to the city totally ignorant to the history of minorities in the U.S and all that goes along with it. He goes into the inner city and sees blacks committing crimes, latinos getting high, and in his ignorance he assumes that these minorities are simply bad people, he doesn&#39;t see white people doing that out in the country so he naturally assumes that white people are more civilized. He is obviously wrong. He blamed it all on skin color not realizing the conditions that have led to this. He never realized that it had nothing to do with skin color and had more to do with the oppression these people have faced. He is wrong for his ignorance, correct ?

Now, you have a black guy in the city. He has lived in the ghetto his whole life, he&#39;s been harrassed by white cops, fired by white bosses and called names by white kids on the street. After seeing all his people have been through at the hands of whites, he beginss to feel that all people with white skin are out to get him. We know that all of this has nothing to do with the actual race and that white people aren&#39;t ALL bad, but he doesn&#39;t. Is he not ignorant as well ? His ignorance led to racism just as the white kids did, so how are they any different ? Sure, it&#39;s easier to understand why a minority becomes predjudiced toward whites, but does that make it acceptable ? Is it not still ignorance to judge a person based on what pigment their skin is ?

You&#39;re no better than a common racist Victor. You have no problem holding double standards for different races.

[Hampton]

Why is it O.K for a minority to believe that white people&#39;s dispicable actions are caused by their skin color but it&#39;s not O.K for a white guy to believe that all black crime is caused by THEIR skin color?

I think you have a hard time finding someone who will say that they believe someone did something because the color of their skin designates how they do things. I think that you will find that if they blame the person who is white who is in that position of power to harm them, to fire them, or to give them a ticket or arrest them or something of that nature, that they would think that because of their skin color they are in a certain position that someone of a diffrent tone might not be able to attain that position for various reasons.

I do not however believe that they would say something to the nature of that is just how white people act or that his how they do things. I think that in the past that has been presented in the mainstream as the popular idea of what blacks of a certain era thought, while that was just the feeling of a the fringe who were being ignorant and foolish, even though they had the tools and most likely knew better, but choose to put forth this idea that was blown up.

And that I assume would work both ways, such as the so-called Bell Curve, which stated in the simpliest form that you are rich because you are smart and you are poor because you are dumb and intelligence is race-related, with people of African descent at the bottom. This idea was put forth and the book was popular for a period of time, and while it grew popular and the idea of adopted for some, it was not likely the majority belief of educators, or if it was it was seen as a way to justify racism or poorer treatment of a people seen as stupid and undesirable.

[Sovietsky Souyuz]

this is what i didnt want, the standard issue - they are oppressed so thus they are allowed to be racist pigs - spiel.

its very untrue, the people i described are not oppressed, this is england in the 21st century, not america in the 1920&#39;s. these people are simply ignorant, their families run businesses, run public services, and generally have a good time of it. i was asking for your opinions because i thought i could rely on some original thoughts, some of which were presented, i thank you.

and yes, the actions of the few will always taint the many, dont matter how wrong it is, it always happens, take world war two, not all germans were nazis, but even now some ignorant thugs will just called all germans nazi scum, hitler lovers etc...

my point is that these few thugs will continue to give right wingers a really good reason to launch their campaigns of hate, and until the majority of good people in the minorities either oust or teach these people the error of their ways, then parties like the BNP will continue to rise

[Palmares]

I think this situation can be (but not always) a cache 22, in that the oppressed are made ignorant through oppression, and their ignorance makes the oppressors more vigilant.

Nevertheless, this ignorance can be found in any population. It is not limited to &#39;minorities&#39;. Though it is usually limited to a minority of the given group.

So by all means minorities can provoke discrimination, but it would be unusual if it were they who originally started (historically).

Racists are racists.

[dotcommie]

Red zepplin that is bullshit,

if a black man looks for trouble he will find it the race card has been played on me before, i knocked in to a black girl in a club and said sorry and all she said was " you wouldn&#39;t have done it if i was white" to which i replied i wouldn&#39;t have said sorry if i was racist.

to say it isn&#39;t expected by some blackmen or any other minority that the white person walking past is racist what crap. justlike many whiites aren&#39;t racist some minorities stir trouble because they believe it is there right, the problem will continue as long as the BNP are around and as long as the minorities react and fight the bnp or the national front

[The Sloth]

And I don&#39;t necessarily condemn that hatred. Judging from the position these people are bullied into, I cannot blame them.

No, regardless of whether they oppressed or not, no one should be excused for racism.

A terrorist, for example, is only reacting to the material conditions (attacks on his culture, religion, socio-economic realities, etc.) that he is brought up in. Now, since he is merely a product of his environment, should he be excused and "not blamed" for his actions? The terrorists from Chechnya, for example, have certainly had been oppressed. You won&#39;t see me sticking up for them, however, when they take children as hostages.

The situation with racism is the same -- yes, these individuals may be oppressed, and an important thing that needs to be done is to get rid of the conditions that cause and nurture racism. At the same time, I think the oppressed folks should have enough sense not to blame an entire race for anything that happens. Nor can they be justified in screaming, "you&#39;re dead, white bastard&#33;" or some other non-sense.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Oppression ? Probably not, depends on how you define it. However, it DOES constitute racism.
I consider racism to be oppression based on race.


Of course not, because you have white guilt written all over you. Hating an entire race of people cannot be justified or rationalized, I don&#39;t care how oppressed the person has been.
I&#39;m not saying it&#39;s okay. I may have said I didn&#39;t condemn it, but I kind of take that back. What I meant was that I do not believe that this attitude adopted by some oppressed people is a means of oppressing someone. It has no harmful effect, so my political agenda doesn&#39;t really involve attacking these folks or their mentality. It&#39;s only a product of oppression. You can do what you want, but the problem won&#39;t be solved until you fight the real enemy which is the oppression of blacks.


No, it is ignorance. What about the millions upon millions of oppressed people who are smart enough not to blame it all on skin color ? Just because you have been put down by people of a certain skin color does not mean you have a free pass to blame it all on their race. It is still ignorant to believe that all white people are evil, I don&#39;t care how oppressed you have been.
As Hampton said, not many people think that white people are inherently evil. What some blacks folks blame is the white power structure. Which exists. The ruling class consist of white men and it targets blacks specifically.


You have no problem holding double standards for different races.
I do not have double standards for different races. I simply know why some black people are quick to blame the white ruling class for their troubles. That&#39;s because they&#39;ve been oppressed by the white power structure before. "Reverse racists" (&#33;&#33;) do not subjugate and oppress anybody. They do not exploit anyone. They are simply the result of material conditions.


A terrorist, for example, is only reacting to the material conditions (attacks on his culture, religion, socio-economic realities, etc.) that he is brought up in. Now, since he is merely a product of his environment, should he be excused and "not blamed" for his actions?
I also don&#39;t think that it&#39;s very progressive to go after the anti-America Muslim extremists. I&#39;m not apologizing for their actions or condoning the killing of innocents, but retaliation for oppression will always exist as long as oppression exists. We need to fight the root of the problem, comrades. Not the result.

[Sovietsky Souyuz]

redzepplin is correct, fighting the root of the problem is always better in theory, but generally impossible in practice, so what is wrong with preventing the problem from worsening ? if you already have a major problem, it is usually very difficult to fight the source, so its common practice to prevent further damage.

and in my country the &#39;white ruling class&#39; doesnt exist in the commonly held view, the queen is just a pretty decoration, the government is an elected body, made up of the people of this country, and at local and governing level is fairly inclusive, ie - in my area there are at least 10/12 asian/black etc MP&#39;s and MEP&#39;s, which is progression methinks.

[Urban Rubble]

I consider racism to be oppression based on race.

Racism is being prejudiced based on race. Ar eyou saying that you actually have to actively oppress someone to be a racist ? If there is a white man who hates blacks, asians, Jews and Mexicans but he has never actually talked to one, been around one, never had the chance to "oppress" one, are you actually going to claim that man isn&#39;t racist because he has never actively oppressed anyone ?


It has no harmful effect, so my political agenda doesn&#39;t really involve attacking these folks or their mentality.

If you don&#39;t think fostering hate and prejudice within an entire culture has a harmful effect you&#39;re out of your fucking mind. What kind of Socialist are you that you sit back and allow racism and hate to manifest itself ?


What some blacks folks blame is the white power structure. Which exists. The ruling class consist of white men and it targets blacks specifically.

And those people I have no problem with, they aren&#39;t racists. If they are intelligent enough to understand that it is the white power structure, then I applaud them. We aren&#39;t talking about them though, we are talking about people who hate based on race.


I do not have double standards for different races. I simply know why some black people are quick to blame the white ruling class for their troubles.

You do so. You find it perfectly O.K for a black man to hate whites but not the other way around.


I also don&#39;t think that it&#39;s very progressive to go after the anti-America Muslim extremists. I&#39;m not apologizing for their actions or condoning the killing of innocents, but retaliation for oppression will always exist as long as oppression exists. We need to fight the root of the problem, comrades.

So those men that stormed the school in Russia and killed a few hundred kids should not be persued ? Victor, I agree that the root of the problem needs to be taken care of, but in the meantime we cannot allow anyone who has "had enough" to lash out and kill innocent people. It is just not acceptable not matter how bad they&#39;ve had it.

[Danton]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 10 2004, 03:00 PM
If there is a white man who hates blacks, asians, Jews and Mexicans but he has never actually talked to one, been around one, never had the chance to "oppress" one, are you actually going to claim that man isn&#39;t racist because he has never actively oppressed anyone ?




He is and he has, the white man need do nothing to oppress the black man. His very existance oppresses the black man. Racism and oppression are so deeply entrenched in white culture that it will take many more years for whites as a race to become free of their disease. Racism is institutionalized within white culture, it is both overt and covert, conscious and sub-conscious. Where it is most dangerous is among youth such as yourself who beleive somehow that we are all on a level playing feild and that social programs such as positive discrimination are unescessary, and perhaps black people should stop moaning already?

When a white man is called say, "Honky" it is nowhere near as offensive as a Black man being called "Nigger". Why? Because that word carries the weight of hundreds of years of slavery, oppression, degradation, humiliation, self loathing, loss of identity, loss of culture of roots etc..


I don&#39;t care how oppressed the person has been. I don&#39;t care how oppressed the person has been. I don&#39;t care how oppressed the person has been.

Urban Rubble is particulary partial to this phrase, it sums up his frame of reference on the subject - zero. White people are not always the greatest source of logic on this...

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Racism is being prejudiced based on race. Ar eyou saying that you actually have to actively oppress someone to be a racist ? If there is a white man who hates blacks, asians, Jews and Mexicans but he has never actually talked to one, been around one, never had the chance to "oppress" one, are you actually going to claim that man isn&#39;t racist because he has never actively oppressed anyone ?

I would say that he is a racist, because he is advocating an oppressive agenda: the one against blacks. Hating white people however, doesn&#39;t further oppression of whites, because such thing doesn&#39;t exist, in the western world, at least.


If you don&#39;t think fostering hate and prejudice within an entire culture has a harmful effect you&#39;re out of your fucking mind. What kind of Socialist are you that you sit back and allow racism and hate to manifest itself ?

You&#39;re blaming the wrong people for that harmful effect, though. If you go to France during the Nazi occupation and some Frenchman says that he hates all Germans, are you going to create a political agenda out of opposing people like that guy? I&#39;d just say that he&#39;s wrong, but he can&#39;t be blamed for nationalism, can he?


You do so. You find it perfectly O.K for a black man to hate whites but not the other way around.

No. I find it oppressive and collaborative of a racist agenda to hate blacks. And I find it ignorant to hate whites, yet hypocritical to fight against that hatred.


So those men that stormed the school in Russia and killed a few hundred kids should not be persued ? Victor, I agree that the root of the problem needs to be taken care of, but in the meantime we cannot allow anyone who has "had enough" to lash out and kill innocent people. It is just not acceptable not matter how bad they&#39;ve had it.

See above posts.

[Louis Pio]

And I find it ignorant to hate whites, yet hypocritical to fight against that hatred.


I can&#39;t see how fighting to change that secterian hatred would be hypocritical. Because that&#39;s what it is, nomatter how many people who find it justified it only serves the people in power. And the base of it is a naive analysis were black capitalism is seen as better than white. All these guys are advocating is repression, just with some other people in power. We have already seen the failure of that in countries such as South Africa or the USA. All it results in is a small elite of blacks moving up and forgetting their "brothers and sisters", hell they even start exploiting them just as the white capitalists did before.
As Public Enemy said " We don&#39;t care what clour the oppressor is, it&#39;s the oppression that connects us for real". That pretty much describes it.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Teis, refer back to my Frenchman-nazi analogy.

[Louis Pio]

Yeah I saw it, and I agree.
But it just doesn&#39;t mean we shouldn&#39;t attack these naive and backwards ideas. We can howevewr do it in a friendly fashion and not resort to hysterical attacks, in my oppinion that&#39;s the best way forward.
Black/red/yellow/purple etc nationalism is an obastacle as white nationalism is. Of course some of it has parts of it progresive traits. That doesn&#39;t mean the idea as a whole are progresive (I think you agree). It is however total reactionary when people who should know better advance black capitalism. To change the oppresor is not a solution.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

What ideas these folks are trying to advance doesn&#39;t matter. That&#39;s not what we&#39;re talking about.

You can tell that black person who accuses whites of being out to get him that he&#39;s wrong, but it&#39;s hypocritical to go after that guy in specific when he&#39;s only a result of the real problem. It&#39;s hypocritical to try to attack racism while attacking folks who are rebelling against racism. Dig?

[Louis Pio]

You can tell that black person who accuses whites of being out to get him that he&#39;s wrong, but it&#39;s hypocritical to go after that guy in specific when he&#39;s only a result of the real problem. It&#39;s hypocritical to try to attack racism while attacking folks who are rebelling against racism. Dig?


Yeah I agree. But that doesn&#39;t mean we shouldn&#39;t attack Nation of Islam or socalled "socialist" organisations with the same views