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Daymare17
8th September 2004, 15:58
Here's something for the Stalinists to chew on.

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/celia_hart_c...rsy_part_2.html (http://www.marxist.com/Theory/celia_hart_controversy_part_2.html)

The Celia Hart Controversy
Stalinism or Leninism?
By Alan Woods
Part Two
In Part One we dealt with the delirious attack of Israel Shamir on Celia Hart after she wrote her article "Socialism in one country" and the Cuban Revolution- A contribution from Cuba. We answered the points raised by Shamir because they were some of the classical Stalinist distortions and lies that we have been accustomed to over decades.

However, in Part Two of this article we are rather more interested in the statements of G. Zyuganov published in Rebelion as part of this debate, under the title Stalin y el Partido Comunista Ruso hoy(Stalin and the Russian Communist Party today). That is not because they are any more serious, but because at least Zyuganov is the leader of a party that is supported by millions of people.

Gennady Zyuganov, the General Secretary of the CC of the CPRF, wrote this article on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the death of Stalin, but it was posted on the Rebelion web site on June 27 of this year, presumably to "set the record straight" after the polemic unleashed by Celia Hart's article.

Zyuganov defends Stalin

In this article Zyuganov writes the following: "There are reasons to assert that the personality of Stalin is comparable to the greatest figures of the Renaissance, a period that, like the last century, saw humanity burst into a new spiral of historic development."

This curious historical parallel is open to different interpretations. The Renaissance knew all kinds of great figures who fulfilled all kinds of roles: not only Michelangelo and Leonardo but also Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia. If the comparison is with the latter, then there is something to be said for it. Stalin had all the features that made the Borgias famous, except for their colourful personalities and their well-known love of art.

Stalin, we are told, was "a man of his times, who united in his person an unbridled aspiration to advance, and the heavy burden of the past. A lofty humanism and an inability to appreciate people, [...]. A sincere lack of interest in material things and an impetuous infatuation with power, which at times annulled other sentiments. Prudence and carefulness in many questions, and sudden ill-considered decisions that affected the destiny of millions of people, and which later had to be painfully corrected. All this was Stalin."

One reads these lines and rubs one's eyes in disbelief. Whatever else Stalin might be accused of, nobody ever thought of accusing him of "lofty humanism"! But leave that to one side. One searches in vain in these lines for the slightest element of a Marxist analysis. Here the whole question is reduced to the most trivial level of personal psychological traits – traits that are purely subjective and therefore cannot be explained. But it is precisely an explanation that is required.

In other words, we go back to the old explanation of Nikita Khrushchev – the theory of the "cult of personality." But in reality this "explanation" explains nothing. Marxists do not explain history in terms of the personal traits and individual psychology of "great men and women", but in the relations between different social classes and groupings. The question that must be addressed is: whish social grouping did Stalin represent? The answer was already given by Lenin in his last writings, which comrade Zyuganov, like Israel Shamir, conveniently ignores. Stalin represented the caste of officials and bureaucrats that had usurped power in the Soviet Union as a result of conditions of appalling backwardness.

Stalin's role in the October Revolution was insignificant (this can be seen immediately from a reading of John Reed's classic Ten Days that Shook the World, which Lenin said was a most truthful account). He rose to power after the October victory on the basis of a petty bourgeois bureaucratic reaction against October. He based himself upon the bureaucracy, first in the Party, the apparat, which he dominated, and later became the champion of the millions of former Tsarist officials who continued to function under the protective colouring of the Soviet state.

This process of bureaucratic degeneration of the Russian Revolution eventually ended in the slaughter of the Old Bolsheviks, who could not stomach Stalin's destruction of the Revolution and the Party of Lenin. Stalin trampled underfoot the spotless traditions of Lenin and the Bolshevik Party. He utterly destroyed the regime of workers' democracy established by the Revolution.

He thus played the role of the executioner of the Bolshevik Party and the gravedigger of the Revolution. Zyuganov knows this, but passes over it in silence. For him, Stalin is the heir of Lenin and continuer of the Bolshevik tradition. In fact, Stalin betrayed the principles of Leninism, murdered the Bolshevik Leninists and dragged the spotless banner of the October Revolution through the mud.

Lenin and Stalin

According to Zyuganov, "Stalin filled all around him with enthusiasm, with a burning desire to advance, to overcome all the difficulties, to conquer. He was distinguished by his sense of discipline, and his clear understanding of his personal responsibility.

"It is no accident that Lenin held him in such high esteem. Often, to fill responsible positions, he saw no other suitable candidate ‘other than comrade Stalin.' We find an example of this when the People's Commissariat for the Nationalities was under discussion, and when ‘Rabkrin' (The Workers' and Peasants Inspectorate) was set up: ‘It is a gigantic task,' Lenin pointed out, ‘in order to know how to deal with it, there must be someone in control who has authority, otherwise we will fail and get bogged down in personal intrigues'."

It is frankly incredible that comrade Zyuganov should quote these examples. Stalin's record at the head of the People's Commissariat for the Nationalities was a disastrous one. It did enormous damage to relations between the Russian workers and the peoples of the oppressed nations of the Caucasus and led directly to a furious clash with Lenin, who, as a result, broke off all personal and comradely relations with Stalin.

The example of Rabkrin is no better. Under Stalin, Rabkrin became a centre of bureaucratic intrigue. Stalin used his control of this body to advance his cronies and staff Soviet offices with people who were loyal to him. In other words, he turned Rabkrin into precisely what Lenin warned against in the extract quoted by comrade Zyuganov.

When Zyuganov says that, "Stalin filled all around him with enthusiasm, with a burning desire to advance, to overcome all the difficulties, to conquer", he is partly right. Stalin surrounded himself with loyal cronies and careerists who were very enthusiastic to obtain positions for themselves in the Soviet state, and were certainly motivated by a burning desire to advance themselves. True, they faced considerable difficulties in the shape of the Bolshevik Party under Lenin and Trotsky, which was waging a stubborn fight against the evils of bureaucracy and privilege. But the new caste of Soviet bureaucrats and upstarts were determined to conquer, and because of the conditions of appalling backwardness in Russia, they finally got what they wanted.

As early as 1920, Trotsky criticised the workings of Rabkrin, which from a tool in the struggle against bureaucracy was becoming itself a hotbed of bureaucracy. Initially, Lenin defended Rabkrin against Trotsky's criticisms. But Later he came around to Trotsky's view: "This idea was suggested by Comrade Trotsky, it seems, quite a long time ago. I was against it at the time. But after closer consideration of the matter, I find that in substance there is a sound idea in it." At first Lenin's illness prevented him from appreciating what was going on behind his back in the state and Party. In 1922, the situation became clear to him. "Bureaucracy is throttling us," he complained. He saw that the problem arose from the country's economic and cultural backwardness.

So how was this state of affairs going to be combated? Lenin stressed the importance of the workers' organisation in keeping the bureaucratic menace in check: "Our Party Programme - a document which the author of the ABC of Communism [Nikolai Bukharin] knows very well - shows that ours is a workers' state with a bureaucratic twist to it. We now have a state under which it is the business of the massively organised proletariat to protect itself, while we, for our part, must use these workers' organisations to protect the workers from their state, and to get them to protect our state." (LCW, Vol. 32, pp. 24-5.)

Lenin's struggle against Stalin was directly linked to his determined struggle against the bureaucracy within the Bolshevik Party itself. It is quite astonishing that Zyuganov should cite Stalin's control of Rabkrin as proof of his Leninist credentials. Evidently he is not aware that Lenin, in his struggle against Stalin and his bureaucratic faction specifically singles out Rabkrin as the goal of his attacks. Or else he does know this and is simply distorting Lenin's position.

In Better Fewer, But Better, written shortly before his Testament, Lenin commented on Rabkrin in the most negative terms. Here is what Lenin wrote about it: "Let it be said in parentheses that we have bureaucrats in our Party offices as well as in Soviet offices." In the same work, he launched a sharp attack against Rabkrin, which was clearly meant for Stalin: "Let us say frankly that the People's Commissariat of the Workers' and Peasants' Inspection does not at present enjoy the slightest authority. Everybody knows that no other institutions are worse organised than those of our Workers' and Peasants' Inspection and that under present conditions nothing can be expected from this Peoples' Commissariat." (LCW, Vol. 33, p. 490, my emphasis, AW.)

So here we have Lenin's opinion about the Rabkrin that comrade Zyuganov admires so much. It "does not at present enjoy the slightest authority", there is "no other institution worse organised than those of our Workers' and Peasants' Inspection" and " nothing can be expected from this Peoples' Commissariat."

Can this be clearer? And can it be clearer that Zyuganov has presented Lenin's attitude to Rabkrin and Stalin in an entirely false and distorted light? Lenin was very well aware that Stalin had turned Rabkrin into a hothouse of bureaucracy, careerism and intrigue. That is why he warns that "we have bureaucrats in our Party offices as well as in Soviet offices." This warning refers to Stalin. It was the beginning of a struggle that was to end in a complete break between Lenin and Stalin.

Stalin as General Secretary

"It was precisely at Lenin's request," Zyuganov informs us, "that Stalin took over as General Secretary of the Bolshevik Party in 1922." What comrade Zyuganov does not tell us is that Lenin soon after angrily demanded Stalin's removal from the post of General Secretary and formed a bloc with Trotsky against him.

In his autobiography, My Life, Trotsky recalls the conversation he had with Lenin on this question:

"'Vladimir Ilyich, according to my conviction, in the present struggle with bureaucratism in the Soviet apparatus, we must not forget that there is going on, both in the provinces and in the centre, a special selection of officials and specialists, party, non-party, and half-party, around certain ruling party personalities and groups - in the provinces, in the districts, in the party locals and in the centre - that is, the Central Committee, etc. Attacking the Soviet officials you run into the party leader. The specialist is a member of his suite. In such circumstances I could not undertake this work.'

"Then Vladimir Ilyich reflected for a moment and - here I quote him practically verbatim - said: 'That is, I propose a struggle with Soviet bureaucratism, and you want to add to that the bureaucratism of the Organisation Bureau of the party.' I laughed at the unexpectedness of this, because no such finished formulation of the idea was in my head. I answered, 'I suppose that's it.'

"Then Vladimir Ilyich said: 'Well, all right, I propose a bloc.' and I said: 'I'm always ready to form a bloc with a good man.'" (Trotsky, My Life.)

As we have already mentioned, Lenin's last words on Stalin and Trotsky are to be found in his Letter to the Congress, known to history as Lenin's Suppressed Testament. We remind our readers that Lenin said about Trotsky that he was "to be sure, the ablest man on the Central Committee" and stated that "his non-Bolshevik past should not be held against him". About Stalin he said that he was too rude (elsewhere he said "rude and disloyal") and had concentrated too much power into his hands ("and I am not sure that he will use it properly") and demanded that he be removed from the post of General Secretary. But about all this Gennady Zyuganov does not say a word.

Stalin's "great achievements"

Referring to Stalin's alleged achievements, Zyuganov writes:

"The results of Stalin's work is known to all. In the first years of the first five-year plan, for example, the industrial potential of our country was doubled. Heavy industry began to occupy the first place. The most backward and distant regions were drawn into the field of production. A multitude of new cities and industrial centers sprang up. The old centers underwent radical transformations. At the close of the 1930s more than 6000 new enterprises were being built. In 1937 the new industrial centers made up more than 80 per cent of the total industrial production."

All this is true, and it is necessary to underline the colossal advances made by the Soviet Union on the basis of a nationalized planned economy. But was all this the result of the far-sighted genius of Stalin? It was not. On the contrary, Stalin originally completely failed to understand the need for five-year plans, and contemptuously dismissed the idea, when it was first put forward in the 1920s by Trotsky and the Left Opposition. Stalin ridiculed Trotsky's proposal for the building of a hydroelectrical project on the Dnieper (Dnieperstroy) as the equivalent of "offering a peasant a gramophone instead of a cow."

Later, when the Soviet Union was threatened by the kulak counterrevolutionaries, Stalin did a 180-degree somersault and went over to the adventurist policy of forced collectivisation. In this sense his plan for collectivisation certainly went "much further" than the proposals laid down by the Opposition! Trotsky denounced it as an adventure, given the material backwardness of Russian agriculture. Stalin's "broad perspectives" spelled disaster to Russian agriculture. According to Stalin himself at least ten million people perished in this terrible catastrophe, from which Soviet agriculture never fully recovered.

Zyuganov writes: "In spite of all the difficulties that arose from the collectivisation of agriculture, the Russian peasantry recovered and raised itself up. In the years of the second five year plan alone they received more than 500,000 tractors, about 124,000 combine harvesters and more than 140,000 lorries. In the period 1928 to 1932 alone, five million peasants learned how to use agricultural machinery. The people of the countryside learned for the first time the meaning of free time, what it meant to be able to study, to raise their cultural level, to dedicate themselves to social activities."

With the brief phrase "all the difficulties that arose from the collectivisation of agriculture", Comrade Zyuganov glosses over one of the blackest episodes in the history of the USSR, a period in which, on Stalin's own admission, about ten million people perished, in which the Soviet countryside was plunged into a terrible famine and in which Soviet agriculture was dealt a heavy blow, from which it never really recovered.

In 1930, the total harvest of grain amounted to 835 million hundredweight. In the next two years it fell to 200 million; this at a time when the level of grain production was only barely sufficient to feed the population. The result spelled famine for millions of workers and peasants. Sugar production in the same period dropped from 109 million poods to 48 million.

Even more terrible were the losses to livestock. The insane tempo of collectivisation, and the vicious methods used, provoked the peasantry to desperate resistance, which plunged the countryside into a new and bloody civil war. The enraged peasants slaughtered their horses and cattle as a protest. The number of horses fell from 34.9 million in 1929 to 15.6 million in 1934; i.e. a loss of 55%. The number of horned cattle fell from 30.7 million to 19.5 million ‑ a loss of 40% ‑ the number of pigs 55%, sheep 66%. Soviet agriculture to the present day has not recovered from the blow dealt by forced collectivisation. But the most gruesome statistic of all is the millions of peasants who perished in this period - from hunger, cold, disease, in running fights with the Red Army or in the slave-labour camps afterwards; the figure of ten million exterminated was not denied by Stalin; four million is the lowest estimate.

Such is the reality of collectivisation, which comrade Zyuganov refers to, without telling us anything about it. As a matter of fact, if the Communist Party had heeded the warnings of Trotsky and the Left Opposition, the horrors of forced collectivisation could have been avoided. But after the death of Lenin Stalin and his supporters adopted a right wing opportunist policy, based on the bourgeois nepmen and the rich peasants (Kulaks). They were not far-sighted at all but extremely myopic. They foresaw nothing and were taken completely by surprise by events.

As explained by Trotsky: "Without the Opposition's bold criticism and without the bureaucracy's fear of the Opposition, the course of Stalin-Bukharin toward the kulak would have ended up in the revival of capitalism. Under the lash of the Opposition the bureaucracy was forced to make important borrowings from our platform. The Leninists could not save the Soviet regime from the process of degeneration and the difficulties of the personal regime. But they saved it from complete dissolution by barring the road to capitalist restoration. The progressive reforms of the bureaucracy were the by-products of the Opposition's revolutionary struggle. For us it is far too insufficient. But it is still something." (Trotsky, Writings 1935-36, p. 179.)

Lenin always advocated the collectivisation of agriculture gradually and by voluntary means. But he certainly never entertained the mad idea that millions of scattered peasant holdings could be forced to collectivise overnight at gunpoint. Collectivisation was to take place through example. The peasant was to be convinced by patient argument and through the setting up of model collective farms and the introduction of the latest modern technology, tractors, fertilizers, electricity, schools, etc.

Such a perspective was obviously linked to the development of Soviet industry through five-year plans. The idea of collectivisation on the basis of wooden ploughs was a self-evident nonsense. As Trotsky explained, this problem "is far from settled by these general historical considerations. The real possibilities of collectivisation are determined, not by the depth of the impasse in the villages and not by the administrative energy of the government, but primarily by the existing productive resources - that is, the ability of the industries to furnish large-scale agriculture with the requisite machinery. These material conditions were lacking. The collective farms were set up with an equipment suitable in the main only for small-scale farming. In these conditions an exaggeratedly swift collectivisation took the character of an economic adventure". (Trotsky, The Revolution Betrayed, p. 38.)

After having lurched to the right, now, in order to safeguard and entrench itself as a privileged caste, the Stalinist bureaucracy was forced to lean on the workers to smash the incipient bourgeois counter-revolution, but in so doing they adopted an ultra-left position. Armed detachments were now sent into the countryside to release the grain stocks to feed the cities. The Stalinists veered from opportunism to an ultra-left position. This led to the insane policy of "liquidation of the kulaks as a class" and the complete collectivisation of agriculture "at the earliest possible date". As a consequence, the proportion of collective farms rose in 1929 from 1.7 per cent to 3.9 per cent. In 1930 it increased dramatically to 23.6 per cent, in 1931 to 52.7 per cent, in 1932 to 61.5 per cent, in 1933 to 64.4 per cent, in 1934 to 71.4 per cent, in 1935 to 83.2 per cent, and in 1936 to 89.6 per cent. The percentage of crop area collectivised rose from 33.6 per cent in 1930 to 94.1 per cent in 1935.

The methods used by Stalin to collectivise the peasantry had nothing in common with the ideas of Lenin. "They collectivised not only horses, cows, sheep, pigs, but even new-born chickens," noted Trotsky. "They 'dekulakised,' as one foreign observer wrote, 'down to the felt shoes, which they dragged from the feet of little children.' As a result there was an epidemic selling of cattle for a song by the peasants, or a slaughter of cattle for meat and hides." (Ibid., p. 39.)

"Stock was slaughtered every night in Gremyachy Log. Hardly had dusk fallen when the muffled, short bleats of sheep, the death-squeals of pigs, or the lowing of calves could be heard," writes Sholokhov in Virgin Soil Upturned. "Both those who had joined the kolkhoz and individual farmers filled their stock. Bulls, sheep, pigs, even cows were slaughtered, as well as cattle for breeding. The horned stock of Gremyachy was halved in two nights." (Quoted in Nove, An Economic History of the USSR, p. 174.) All forces were directed to procurements. The human and economic consequences were appalling, and as e have seen, millions perished in the ensuing famine.

Trotsky and the industrialization of the USSR

But how about industry? Did not the success of Stalin's plans which went "much further" than the perspectives of the Left Opposition, prove how "pessimistic" Trotsky was? When, after the notorious Moscow Frame-up Trials, Trotsky appeared voluntarily before the Dewey Commission, which went through the charges levelled against him and the Opposition, he answered, among other things, a number of questions relating to the differences with the Stalinists on the question of industrialisation in 1923-9. We quote verbatim from the text of his evidence:

"Goldman: Mr. Trotsky, with reference to the industrialisation of the Soviet Union, what was your attitude prior to your expulsion from the Soviet Union?

"Trotsky: During the period from 1922 until 1929 I fought for the necessity of an accelerated industrialisation. I wrote in the beginning of 1925 a book in which I tried to prove that by planning and direction of industry it was possible to have a yearly coefficient of industrialisation up to twenty. I was denounced at the time as a fantastic man, a super-industrialiser. It was the official name for Trotskyites at that time: 'super-industrialisers'.

"Goldman: What was the name of the book that you wrote?

"Trotsky: Whither Russia, Toward Capitalism or Socialism?

"Goldman: In English, it was published, I am quite sure under the title Wither Russia, Toward Capitalism or Socialism?

"Trotsky: The march of events showed that I was too cautious in my appreciation of the possibility of planned economy - not too courageous. It was my fight between 1922 and 1925, and also the fight for the Five Year Plan. It begins with the year 1923, when the Left Opposition began to fight for the necessity of using the Five Year Plan.

"Goldman: And Stalin at that time called you a 'super-industrialist'?

"Trotsky: Yes.

"Goldman: He was opposed to the rapid industrialisation of the country.

"Trotsky: Permit me to say that in 1927, when I was Chairman of the Commission at Dnieprostroy for a hydro-electric station, a power station, I insisted in the session of the Central Committee on the necessity of building up this station. Stalin answered, and it is published: 'For us to build up the Dnieprostroy station is the same as for a peasant to buy a gramophone instead of a cow.'" (The Case of Leon Trotsky, page 245)

Such was the extent of Stalin's "broad perspectives" in 1927! At that time, the accusation levelled at the Opposition by the Stalinists was not that they were "pessimistic" but that were "super-industrialisers"! What about the assertion that the plans later implemented by Stalin went "much further" than those of Trotsky? The years 1925-27 were in fact occupied by the struggle of the Opposition against the economic cowardice of the Stalin-Bukharin leadership.

The Stalinists in 1926 first suggested a "plan" which would begin with a coefficient of nine for the first year, eight for the second, gradually lowering to four - a declining rate of growth! Trotsky, whom the ruling clique branded as "super-industrialist", described this miserable excuse for a plan as the "sabotage of industry" (not, of course, in a literal sense). Later, the plan was revised to give a coefficient of nine for all five years. Trotsky fought for a coefficient of 18-20. He pointed out that the rate of growth, even under capitalism, had been six!

The ruling clique paid no attention to the Opposition and went ahead with their pusillanimous plans. Instead of the miserable nine percent projected by the "broad perspectives" of Stalin-Bukharin, the results of the first year of the five-year plan completely bore out the perspective of the Opposition and exposed the complete inadequacy of the coefficients advanced by Stalin and Co. As a result, the following year they plunged into the disastrous adventure of a "five year plan in four years". In vain did Trotsky warn against this crazy idea, which, threw everything completely off balance. By bureaucratic ukaze the leadership now decreed a coefficient of 30-35%!

The wrecking of industry in this period, which was blamed upon the unfortunate victims of the "sabotage trials", was in reality the result of the adventurism of the Stalinists, whose pursuit of the chimera of "Socialism in One Country" and "Five Year Plan in Four Years" led to the seizing up of the economy and untold hardships for the Soviet working class.

This is what Trotsky himself had to say to the Dewey Commission:

"Trotsky: My attitude toward the economic development of the Soviet Union can be characterised as follows: I defend the Soviet economy against the capitalist critics and the Social Democratic reformist critics, and I criticize the bureaucratic methods of the leadership. The deductions were very simple. They were based on the Soviet press itself. We have a certain freedom from the bureaucratic hypnosis. It was absolutely possible to see all of the dangers on the basis of the Soviet press itself.

"Goldman: Can you give us an idea, very generally, of the successes of the industrialisation in the Soviet Union?

"Trotsky: The successes are very important, and I affirmed it every time. They are due to the abolition of private property and to the possibilities inherent in planned economy. But, they are - I cannot say exactly - but I will say two or three times less than they could be under a regime of Soviet democracy.

"Goldman: So the advances are due, in spite of the bureaucratic control and methods?

"Trotsky: They are due to the possibilities inherent in the socialisation of the productive forces." (The Case of Leon Trotsky, page 249)

Superiority of a planned economy

Comrade Zyuganov does not know anything about all this. Yet he repeats the old myth that Stalin was responsible for the industrialization of the USSR! In fact, as in the case of collectivisation, Stalin only accepted the programme of industrialization and five year plans (that was originally put forward by Trotsky and the Left Opposition) belatedly, and in a caricature form. The bureaucratic implementation of central planning caused colossal waste, bungling, corruption and mismanagement, which eventually undermined and destroyed the planned economy, leading to capitalist restoration and the collapse of the USSR.

However, despite Stalin and the bureaucracy, there is no question that the introduction of a nationalized planned economy represented a giant step forward. The superiority of a nationalized planned economy was shown in the Second World War, which in Europe was really a titanic battle between the USSR and Hitler's Germany with all the combined resources of Europe behind him. The nationalized planned economy achieved astonishing results in the field of culture, education and science.

Comrade Zyuganov correctly writes: "At the start of the 1940s 80 percent of the population was illiterate. Hundreds of thousands of young people from the working class and peasantry attended institutes and centers of professional education. A new intelligentsia emerged."

This is also true. The advantages of a nationalized planned economy enabled the USSR to overcome its former backwardness with amazing speed, to abolish illiteracy and achieve the most brilliant successes, above all in the field of science and technology, as its space programme demonstrated to the whole world. In the 1980s, the USSR had more scientists than the USA, Japan and Western Germany put together, and they were excellent scientists.

The problem is that with all these scientists, the USSR was unable to achieve the same results as the West. The relative backwardness of the USSR was shown in the field of productivity, where the Soviet Union lagged behind the West. What is the reason for this? The main reason was the colossal burden imposed on the Soviet economy by the bureaucracy – the millions of greedy and corrupt officials that were running the Soviet Union without any control on the part of the working class. Comrade Zyuganov is silent on this point. But then, how does he explain the fact that, for all the undoubted advantages of the planned economy, and all the colossal advances of the Soviet Union, the whole thing was undermined and destroyed?

If, as the Stalinists maintain even now, everything was fine, and if the Soviet people were living in a socialist paradise, then how come it all collapsed and capitalism was restored? To this question – the most important question of all – the latter-day apologists of Stalinism have no answer. They twist and turn in all ways to justify the regime in the Soviet Union, they fulminate and foam at the mouth at Trotsky's denunciation of the Stalinist bureaucracy, but they have nothing to say in answer to the question that all thinking workers and Communists are asking.

In reality, if one accepts the arguments of the Stalinists, no answer is possible. One minute there was socialism, the next minute there was capitalism. That is all. But wait a minute! Some questions remain to be answered. Comrade Zyuganov was a member of a Party that used to call itself the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. This was a Party of some 19 million members. It called itself the "vanguard of the working people". It was supposed to be the fountainhead of all wisdom and the repository of correct Marxist-Leninist principles.

Yet in a few months, this imposing edifice collapsed. When Comrade Zyuganov and others reorganized the CPRF, it had no more than half a million members. What happened to all the others? It turned out that they were not Communists at all, but only vulgar careerists who went wherever the wind blew. Most of them are now enthusiastic supporters of the market. Worse still, many of the leaders (or their children, it matters not) have become wealthy businessmen and are part of the oligarchy that dominates Russia. Compared to this betrayal, the role of the Social Democratic leaders in 1914 was just a children's game.

Can anyone believe that, if the Soviet workers had had any say in the matter, that if Lenin's principles of Soviet democracy remained in force in the USSR, that such a monstrosity would have been conceivable? Trotsky long ago pointed out that a nationalized planned economy needs democracy as the human body needs oxygen. That is not just a literary phrase! Without genuine soviet democracy (the kind of democracy that existed in the Soviet state under Lenin and Trotsky), a nationalized planned economy will inevitably end up in a morass of bureaucracy, corruption, waste and chaos. That is what ultimately destroyed the USSR. The Stalinist bureaucracy, which for decades sang the praises of "socialism" while trampling the most elementary principles of Leninism underfoot, has now passed over from "socialism" to capitalism with the ease of a man passing from a smoking to a non-smoking compartment of a train.

(To be continued)

See Part One

SonofRage
8th September 2004, 16:55
Bolshevism and Stalinism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1947/bolshevism-stalinism.htm) by Paul Mattick.

excerpt



All this has nothing to do with Stalinism and ‘Thermidor’ but represents Lenin’s and Trotsky’s policy from the very day they came to power. Reporting to the Sixth Congress of Soviets in 1918, Trotsky complained that “Not all Soviet workers have understood that our administration has been centralised and that all orders issued from above must be final... We shall be pitiless with those Soviet workers who have not yet understood; we will remove them, cast them out of our ranks, pull them up with repressions.” Trotsky now claims that these words were aimed at Stalin who did not co-ordinate his war-activity properly and we are willing to believe him. But how much more directly must they have been aimed at all those who were not even ‘second-rate’ but had no rating at all in the Soviet hierarchy. There already existed, as Trotsky relates, “a sharp cleavage between the classes in motion and the interests of the party machines. Even the Bolshevik Party cadres, who enjoyed the benefit of exceptional revolutionary training were definitely inclined to disregard the masses and to identify their own special interests with the interests of the machine on the very day after the monarchy was overthrown.”

Trotsky holds, of course, that the dangers implied in this situation were averted by Lenin’s vigilance and by objective conditions which made the “masses more revolutionary than the Party, and the Party more revolutionary than its machine”. But the machine was headed by Lenin. Even before the Revolution, Trotsky points out, the Central Committee of the Party “functioned almost regularly and was entirely in the hands of Lenin”. And even more so after the Revolution. In the spring of 1918 the “ideal of ‘democratic centralism’ suffered further reverses, for in effect the power within both the government and the Party became concentrated in the hands of Lenin and the immediate retinue of Bolshevik leaders who did not openly disagree with him and carried out his wishes”. As the bureaucracy made headway nevertheless, the emerging Stalinist machine must have been the result of an oversight on the part of Lenin.

To distinguish between the ruler of the machine and the machine on the one hand, and between the machine and the masses on the other implies that only the masses and its top-leader were truly revolutionary, and that both Lenin and the revolutionary masses were later betrayed by Stalin’s machine which, so to speak, made itself independent. Although Trotsky needs such distinctions to satisfy his own political interests, they have no basis in fact. Until his death - disregarding occasional remarks against the dangers of bureaucratisation, which for the Bolsheviks are the equivalent of the bourgeois politicians’ occasional crusades for a balanced budget - Lenin never once came out against the Bolshevik party machine and its leadership, that is, against himself. Whatever policy was decided upon received Lenin’s blessing as long as he was at the helm of the machine; and he died holding that position.

Lenin’s ‘democratic’ notions are legendary. Of course state-capitalism under Lenin was different from state-capitalism under Stalin because the dictatorial powers of the latter were greater - thanks to Lenin’s attempt to build up his own. That Lenin’s rule was less terroristic than Stalin’s is debatable. Like Stalin, Lenin catalogued all his victims under the heading ‘counter-revolutionary’. Without comparing the statistics of those tortured and killed under both regimes, we will admit that the Bolshevik regime under Lenin and Trotsky was not strong enough to carry through such Stalinist measures as enforced collectivisation and slave-labour camps as a main economic and political policy. It was not design but weakness which forced Lenin and Trotsky to the so called New Economic Policy, that is, to concessions to private property interests and to a greater lip-service to ‘democracy’.

Salvador Allende
10th September 2004, 00:34
Try reading "Trotskyism or Leninism" it shows the differences between Trotsky's theories and Lenin's and once and for all proves that Trotskyism is not Leninism, but a distortion made to exploit the workers.

Urban Rubble
10th September 2004, 00:44
So....instead of refuting the points raised in the article, you thought you'd take this time to bash Trotsky ? I know you Stalinists are consumed with hatred for Trot, but try to stay on topic.

Vinny Rafarino
10th September 2004, 03:03
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 10 2004, 12:44 AM
So....instead of refuting the points raised in the article, you thought you'd take this time to bash Trotsky ? I know you Stalinists are consumed with hatred for Trot, but try to stay on topic.
You must not be familiar with who Alan Woods is Rubble.


The only point to the article was to create yet another Trot vs. Stalin debate.

Don't worry, only the incredibly daft or incredibly aged bother with Alan Woods.

Salvador Allende
10th September 2004, 03:27
I only hate Trotsky because I am a true Marxist-Leninist, unlike some who disgrace it's name regularly (IE, Trots, Titoists, Khruschevists) who claim to be Leninist and cover up the fact that their views are the opposite of Lenin's. Alan Woods is a joke and this is not even worth bothering with.

Urban Rubble
10th September 2004, 03:48
You must not be familiar with who Alan Woods is Rubble.

You're right.


The only point to the article was to create yet another Trot vs. Stalin debate.

I know. I just don't see why the guy replied at all if that's all he had to say.


I only hate Trotsky because I am a true Marxist-Leninist, unlike some who disgrace it's name regularly (IE, Trots, Titoists, Khruschevists) who claim to be Leninist and cover up the fact that their views are the opposite of Lenin's. Alan Woods is a joke and this is not even worth bothering with.

Well it obviously was worth bothering with, you "bothered" to comment. I just think it's funny that guys like you take every little chance you get to repeat your tired, generic little Trotsky spiel. I'm not a Trot by the way.

BOZG
10th September 2004, 07:28
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 10 2004, 04:48 AM
You're right.
He's a leading member of the Socialist Appeal tendency of the British Labour Party, a trot.

Daymare17
10th September 2004, 09:46
Seems the Stalinists can't answer the arguments. Very well, nothing else was expected.

Saint-Just
10th September 2004, 11:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 09:46 AM
Seems the Stalinists can't answer the arguments. Very well, nothing else was expected.
It is quite simply full of conjectures, as such the piece is really meaningless, it is propaganda for people who already hold similar such views.

However, someone could still carefully analyse the article but the Marxist-Leninists who would have previously done that have left this site already. In addition, we have already seen numerous articles like this posted before from both Marxist-Leninists and bourgeois socialists (Trotskyists).


He utterly destroyed the regime of workers' democracy established by the Revolution.

In what way did this occur precisely? Can you cite the differences between the Soviet political system the USSR in 1924 and the USSR in 1935? I recently read Soviet Communism by Sidney and Beatrice Webb, founders of the Fabien Society(they visited the USSR twice in the 30s). In this book there was a very detailed description of the political system that Lenin founded and Stalin upheld in the USSR. And, how it compares to this statement from Alan Woods is in quite stark contrast.

Louis Pio
10th September 2004, 14:55
It is quite simply full of conjectures, as such the piece is really meaningless, it is propaganda for people who already hold similar such views.


No it actually has base in a polemic going on right now. And is a answer to some slander brought fort by some "marxists-leninists" against Celia Hart, a well known member of the cuban CP.


and bourgeois socialists (Trotskyists).


I see you are still embarrased by your own social background and that of you fellow stalin kiddie posse. Just stop it you sound pathetic, fact is we have more base among the workers and in unions than you "internet r-r-r-revolutionaries" will ever have.

Btw funny that you use 2 bourgios socialists as a source, I guess sometimes you think it's ok.
The Webb's were the kind of "socialists" who would much rather prefere to support some country far away than to fight for socialism at home, much like yourself.

Louis Pio
10th September 2004, 15:12
A nice little piece on the Webb's and other "friends of the soviet union" written by the old man himself.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...ch12.htm#ch12-1 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1936-rev/ch12.htm#ch12-1)

1.
The "Friends" of the Soviet Union
For the first time a powerful government provides a stimulus abroad not to the respectable right, but to the left and extreme left press. The sympathies of the popular masses for the great revolution are being very skillfully canalized and sluiced into the mill of the Soviet bureaucracy. The "sympathizing" Western press is imperceptibly losing the right to publish anything which might aggrieve the ruling stratum of the Soviet Union. Books undesirable to the Kremlin are maliciously unmentioned. Noisy and mediocre apologists are published in many languages. We have avoided quoting throughout this work the specific productions of of the official "friends", preferring the crude originals to the stylized foreign paraphrases. However, the literature of the "friends", including that of the Communist International, the most crass and vulgar part of it, presents in cubic metres an impressive magnitude, and plays not the last role in politics. We must devote a few concluding pages to it.

At present the chief contribution to the treasury of thought is declared to be the Webbs’ book, "Soviet Communism.” Instead of relating what has been achieved and in what direction the achieved is developing, the authors expound for twelve hundred pages what is contemplated, indicated in the bureaus, or expounded in the laws. Their conclusion is: When the projects, plans and laws are carried out, then communism will be realized in the Soviet Union. Such is the content of this depressing book, which rehashes the reports of Moscow bureaus and the anniversary articles of the Moscow press.

Friendship for the Soviet bureaucracy is not friendship for the proletarian revolution, but, on the contrary, insurance against it. The Webbs are, to be sure, ready to acknowledge that the communist system will sometime or other spread to to the rest of the world.

“But how, when, where, with what modifications, and whether through violent revolution, or by peaceful penetration, or even by conscious imitation, are questions we cannot answer."

This diplomatic refusal to answer—or, in reality, this unequivocal answer —is in the highest degree characteristic of the "friends", and tells the actual price of their friendship. If everybody had thus answered the question of revolution before 1917, when it was infinitely harder to answer, there would have been no Soviet state in the world, and the British "friends" would have had to expand their fund of friendly emotion upon other objects.

The Webbs speak as of something which goes without saying about the vanity of hoping for a European revolution in the near future, and they gather from that a comforting proof of the correctness of the theory of socialism in one country. With the authority of people for whom the October Revolution was a complete, and moreover an unpleasant, surprise, they give us lessons in the necessity of building a socialist society within the limits of the Soviet Union in the absence of other perspectives. It is difficult to refrain from an impolite movement of the shoulders! In reality, our dispute with the Webbs is not as to the necessity of building factories in the SOviet Union and employing mineral fertilizers on the collective farms, but as to whether it is necessary to prepare a revolution in Great Britain and how it shall be done. Upon that question the learned sociologues answer: "We do not know." They consider the very question, of course, in conflict with "science.”

Lenin was passionately hostile to the conservative bourgeois who imagines himself a socialist, and, in particular, to the British Fabians. By the biographical glossary attached to his "Works", it is not difficult to find out that his attitude to the Webbs throughout his whole active life remained one of unaltered fierce hostility. In 1907 he first wrote of the Webbs as "obtuse eulogists of English philistinism", who try to represent Chartism, the revolutionary epoch of the English labor movement, as mere childishness.” Without Chartism, however, there would have been no Paris Commune. Without both, there would have been no October revolution. The Webbs found in the Soviet Union only an administrative mechanism and a bureaucratic plan. They found neither Chartism nor Communism nor the October revolution. A revolution remains for them today, as before, an alien and hostile matter, if not indeed "mere childishness.”

In his polemics against opportunists, Lenin did not trouble himself, as is well known, with the manners of the salon. But his abusive epithets ("lackeys of the bourgeoisie", "traitors", "boot-lick souls") expressed during many years a carefully weighed appraisal of the Webbs and the evangels of Fabianism—that is, of traditional respectability and worship for what exists. There can be no talk of any sudden change in the views of the Webbs during recent years. These same people who during the war support their bourgeoisie, and who accepted later at the hands of the King the title of Lord Passfield, have renounced nothing, and changed not at all, in adhering to Communism in a single, and moreover a foreign, country. Sidney Webb was Colonial Minister—that is, chief jailkeeper of British imperialism—in the very period of his life when he was drawing near to the Soviet bureaucracy, receiving material from its bureaus, and on that basis working upon this two-volume compilation.

As late as 1923, the Webbs saw no great difference between Bolshevism and Tzarism (see, for example, The Decay of Capitalist Civilization, 1923). Now, however, they have fully reorganized the "democracy" of the Stalin regime. It is needless to seek any contradiction here. The Fabians were indignant when the revolutionary proletariat withdrew freedom of activity from "educated" society, but they think it quite in the order of things when a bureaucracy withdraws freedom of activity from the proletariat. Has not this always been the function of the laborite’s workers’ bureaucracy? The Webbs swear, for example, that criticism in the Soviet Union is completely free. A sense of humor is not to be expected of these people. They refer with complete seriousness to that notorious "self-criticism" which is enacted as a part of one’s official duties, and the direction of which, as well as its limits, can always be accurately foretold.

Naivete? Neither Engels nor Lenin considered Sidney Webb naive. Respectability rather. After all, it is a question of an established regime and of hospitable hosts. The Webbs are extremely disapproving in their attitude to a Marxian criticism of what exists. They consider themselves called to preserve the heritage of the October revolution from the Left Opposition. For the sake of completeness we observe that in its day the Labor Government in which Lord Passfield (Sidney Webb) held a portfolio refused the author of this work a visa to enter Great Britain. Thus Sidney Webb, who in those very days was working on his book upon the Soviet Union, is theoretically defending the Soviet Union from being undermined, but practically he is defending the Empire of His Majesty. In justice be it said that in both cases he remains true to himself.



* * *
For many of the petty bourgeoisie who master neither pen nor brush, an officially registered "friendship" for the Soviet Union is a kind of certificate of higher spiritual interests. Membership in Freemason lodges or pacifist clubs has much in common with membership in the society of "Friends of the Soviet Union", for it makes it possible to live two lives at once: an everyday life in a circle of commonplace interests, and a holiday life evaluating to the soul. From time to time the "friends” visit Moscow. They note down in their memory tractors, creches, Pioneers, parades, parachute girls—in a word, everything except the new aristocracy. The best of them close their eyes to this out of a feeling of hostility toward capitalist reaction. Andre Gide frankly acknowledges this:


“The stupid and dishonest attack against the Soviet Union has brought it about that we now defend it with a certain obstinacy."

But the stupidity and dishonesty of one’s enemies is no justification for one’s own blindness. The working masses, at any rate, have need of clearsighted friends.

The epidemic sympathy of bourgeois radicals and socialist bourgeois for the ruling stratum of the Soviet Union has causes that are not unimportant. In the circle of professional politicians, notwithstanding all differences of program, there is always a predominance of those friendly to such "progress" as is already achieved or can easily be achieved. There are incomparably more reformers in the world than revolutionists, more accommodationists than irreconciables. Only in exceptional historic periods, when the masses come into movement, do the revolutionists emerge from their isolation, and the reformers become more like fish out of water.

In the milieu of the present Soviet bureaucracy, there is not a person who did not, prior to April 1917, and even considerably later, regard the idea of a proletarian dictatorship in Russia as fantastic. (At that time this "fantasy" was called... Trotskyism.) The older generation of the foreign "friends" for decades regarded as Realpolitiker to Russian Mensheviks, who stood for a "people’s front" with the liberals and rejected the idea of dictatorship as arrant madness. To recognize a dictatorship when it is already achieved and even bureaucratically befouled —that is a different matter. That is a matter exactly to the minds of these "friends.” They now not only pay their respects to the Soviet state, but even defined it against its enemies—not so much, to be sure, against those who yearn for the past, as against those who are preparing the future. Where these "friends" are active preparing, as in the case of the French, Belgian, English and other reformists, it is convenient to them to conceal their solidarity with the bourgeoisie under a concern for the defense of the Soviet Union. Where, on the other hand, they have unwillingly become defeatists, as in the case of the German and Austrian social patriots of yesterday, they hope that the alliance of France with the Soviet Union may help them settle with Hitler or Schussnigg. Leon Blum, who was an enemy of Bolshevism in its heroic epoch, and opened the pages of Le Populaire for the express purpose of publicly baiting the October revolution, would now not print a line exposing the real crimes of the Soviet bureaucracy. Just as the Biblical Moses, thirsting to see the face of Jehovah, was permitted to make his bow only to the rearward parts of the divine anatomy, so the honorable reformists, worshipers of the accomplished fact, are capable of knowing and acknowledging in a revolution only its meaty bureaucratic posterior.

The present communist "leaders" belong in essence to the same type. After a long series of monkey jumps and grimaces, they have suddenly discovered the enormous advantages of opportunism, and have seized upon it with the freshness proper to that ignorance which has always distinguished them. Their slavish and not always disinterested kowtowing to the upper circles in the Kremlin alone renders them absolutely incapable of revolutionary initiative. They answer critical arguments no otherwise than with snarling and barking; and, moreover, under the whip of the boss they wag their tails. This most unattractive aggregation, which in the hour of danger will scatter to the four winds, considers us flagrant "counterrevolutionists.” What of it? History, in spite of its austere character, cannot get along without an occassional farce.

The more honest or open-eyed of the "friends", at least when speaking tete-a-tete, concede that there is a spot on the Soviet sun. But substituting a fatalistic for a dialectic analysis, they console themselves with the thought that "a certain" bureaucratic degeneration in the given conditions was historically inevitable. Even so! The resistance to this degeneration also has not fallen from the sky. A necessity has two ends: the reactionary and the progressive. History teaches that persons and parties which drag at the opposite ends of a necessity turn out in the long run on opposite sides of the barricade.

The final argument of the "friends" is that reactionaries will seize upon any criticism of the Soviet regime. That is indubitable! We may assume that they will try to get something for themselves out of the present book. When was it ever otherwise? The Communist Manifesto spoke scornfully of the fact that the feudal reaction tried to use against liberalism the arrows of socialist criticism. That did not prevent revolutionary socialism from following its road. It will not prevent us either. The press of the Communist International, it is true, goes so far as to assert that our criticism is preparing military intervention against the Soviets. This obviously means that the capitalist governments, learning from our works of the degeneration of the Soviet bureaucracy, will immediately equip a punitive expedition to avenge the trampled principles of October! The polemists of the Communist International are not armed with rapiers but wagon tongues, or some still less nimble instrument. In reality a Marxist criticism, which calls things by their real names, can only increase the conservative credit of the Soviet diplomacy in the eyes of the bourgeoisie.

It is otherwise with the working class and its sincere champions among the intelligentsia. Here our work will cause doubts and evoke distrust —not of revolutionaries, but of its usurpers. But that is the very goal we have set ourselves. The motor force of progress is truth and not lies.

Daymare17
11th September 2004, 10:28
It is quite simply full of conjectures, as such the piece is really meaningless, it is propaganda for people who already hold similar such views.

Bullshit. I won't quote the parts which are non-conjectural since I would have to quote the whole article. Anyone can just read it and see for themselves whether it is "full of conjunctures" or whether it has numerous facts and concrete quotes from Lenin.


In what way did this occur precisely? Can you cite the differences between the Soviet political system the USSR in 1924 and the USSR in 1935? I recently read Soviet Communism by Sidney and Beatrice Webb, founders of the Fabien Society(they visited the USSR twice in the 30s). In this book there was a very detailed description of the political system that Lenin founded and Stalin upheld in the USSR. And, how it compares to this statement from Alan Woods is in quite stark contrast.

As Teis said it is marvellous that you quote the contemptible Webbs, whom Lenin hated like the plague.

I'll quote Ted Grant, since he explains it better than me.

http://www.marxist.com/TUT/TUT7-2.html

"But what has happened to the soviets of which Lenin speaks? There are no soviets in the Soviet Union! The name remains, but in place of the living, acting democracy of the soviets, we have a so-called parliament - a caricature of a bourgeois parliament, because at least in a bourgeois parliament different organisations, different tendencies can put up. But in the so-called Soviet parliament we have what amounts to a Reichstag - one totalitarian organisation, where only a single candidate is put up, or as Marx would explain, a plebiscital regime and not at all a workers' democracy as existed with the soviets in the early days of the Soviet Union.

Far from the right of recall which Lenin spoke of, the system had degenerated to the extent that when Stalin carried through his purge in 1936-9, about one-fifth to two-fifths of the members of the parliament were arrested, exiled to Siberia and shot, and mysteriously, without any new elections or by-elections, new MPs appeared to take their place. Under the rule of Stalin, in the last election in which Stalin took part, in his own constituency, he received the magnificent total of 105 per cent of the votes. And that in itself is sufficient indication of the kind of system we are dealing with as far as democracy of any kind is concerned.

All this was no accident. Again, whose interest is reflected? The law that no official should receive a higher wage than a skilled worker was abolished by Stalin as long ago as 1931 and today the difference in wages between a parliamentary representative or the President of the Soviet Union, and an ordinary worker in the Soviet Union, is far far greater than the difference in wages between the parliamentarians at Westminster and the working class in Britain. Lenin had made a concession in the early days of the revolution because they had no other alternative; he had made the concession of allowing a difference in wage of a maximum in the Soviet state of four to one. A specialist, a technician, could receive four times the wage of a skilled worker. That was the absolute maximum. That long ago has been abolished and in the Soviet Union today the difference between the top strata of the managers and the workers, is as great and in many cases, even much greater, than in America, Germany, Britain and other capitalist countries.

Whereas Lenin had openly proclaimed even the difference of four to one as a capitalist differential, now the bureaucracy which seized control reigns untramelled and uses the Soviet state not in the interests of the working people, but in the interests of the bureaucracy itself."

Saint-Just
13th September 2004, 15:30
I see you are still embarrased by your own social background and that of you fellow stalin kiddie posse. Just stop it you sound pathetic, fact is we have more base among the workers and in unions than you "internet r-r-r-revolutionaries" will ever have.

Btw funny that you use 2 bourgios socialists as a source, I guess sometimes you think it's ok.
The Webb's were the kind of "socialists" who would much rather prefere to support some country far away than to fight for socialism at home, much like yourself.

Many revolutionaries come from a bourgeois background. People like Mao and Che became revolutionaries because they were well-educated from well-off families. I am from a very well-off upper middle-class family and it does not embarrass me. Trotskyists have a greater base in the Western world we more readily adopt bourgeois values and the bourgeois view of history in the Western world. When I said Trotskyists were bourgeois socialists I mean this not in the sense that they are from bourgeois backgrounds but that they subscribe to the Western bourgeoisie's view of the world.

The reason you have more people among the workers and in the unions is because there are more Trotskyists than "Stalinists" in the UK, not because all the "Stalinists" sit at home doing nothing. Although I don't do anything for socialism personally, I know "Stalinists" who do. I know two "Stalinists" who are members of CPB, I believe the CPB pursue the tactic of deep entrism into Labour affiliated unions.


Btw funny that you use 2 bourgios socialists as a source, I guess sometimes you think it's ok.
The Webb's were the kind of "socialists" who would much rather prefere to support some country far away than to fight for socialism at home, much like yourself.

I wouldn't call them bourgeois socialists. I wouldn't criticise the Webb's lack of revolutionary action since I don't take any revolutionary action myself. I believe a socialist revolution in my country is near impossible. The only thing I do is represent my views clearly to other people.


As Teis said it is marvellous that you quote the contemptible Webbs, whom Lenin hated like the plague.

Lenin saw some of the Webb's work as very useful. I did not know he held them in contempt, however, I don't find that unlikely given their tactics to bring about socialism in Britain.

Louis Pio
13th September 2004, 15:47
When I said Trotskyists were bourgeois socialists I mean this not in the sense that they are from bourgeois backgrounds but that they subscribe to the Western bourgeoisie's view of the world.

Yes and it don't make sense still. Also it's one of the most simplistic assertions I have yet encountered. Just because one doesn't jump around in joy when 2 men and a dog pick up arms and declare themselves the revolutionary party doesn't mean one shares the bourgios view of the world.


Many revolutionaries come from a bourgeois background.

Yep I know, nothing wrong in that actually. I just find it pathetic for rich kids to dismiss workers as bourgious.


I wouldn't call them bourgeois socialists. I wouldn't criticise the Webb's lack of revolutionary action since I don't take any revolutionary action myself. I believe a socialist revolution in my country is near impossible. The only thing I do is represent my views clearly to other people.

I think I just understand why you have the views you have, it has a base in your social background and the alienation you feel towards workers. And then you need to throw your love on something far away. The Webbs actually comes to mind. Maybe you shouldn't make so pompous statements then? It's not really an admirable trait to just sit back and then criticising the people actually doing something. Words without actions are useless and can't be expected to be taken serious. Especially since one learns by actions and putting theory into practice.

Saint-Just
13th September 2004, 20:08
Yep I know, nothing wrong in that actually. I just find it pathetic for rich kids to dismiss workers as bourgious.

But surely you would also accept that a lot of people in general, working-class and middle-class people, have a bourgeois consciousness.


he law that no official should receive a higher wage than a skilled worker was abolished by Stalin as long ago as 1931

This was discussed in the Webb's book Soviet Communism. Stalin never sought equalisation of wages, so this point is rather irrelevent. Indeed, I don't doubt that the party did receive greater wages than certain other labourers. I would encourage you to read the book to see what Lenin and Stalin said about wages.


I think I just understand why you have the views you have, it has a base in your social background and the alienation you feel towards workers. And then you need to throw your love on something far away. The Webbs actually comes to mind. Maybe you shouldn't make so pompous statements then? It's not really an admirable trait to just sit back and then criticising the people actually doing something. Words without actions are useless and can't be expected to be taken serious. Especially since one learns by actions and putting theory into practice.

I don't think I feel any alienation towards workers. I accept people for what they are as products of their environment. To do any different would be utterly unscientific and thus not Marxist at all. I don't hold contempt for people, only ideas. I may live in a well-off family however I still come into contact with many working-class people. For example, I have worker 20-30 hours a week as a cleaner in a hospital for 2 years and I don't feel alienated from the type of people I work with. As such I don't think this is my reason for advocating a particular political system that I have not experienced first-hand.


Words without actions are useless and can't be expected to be taken serious. Especially since one learns by actions and putting theory into practice.

This is true, however I do not think there is much scope in Britain for practicing a Marxist-Leninist society. I was not criticising your revolutionary work but rather your view of history and politics.

Louis Pio
13th September 2004, 20:58
But surely you would also accept that a lot of people in general, working-class and middle-class people, have a bourgeois consciousness.

Of course. But you then seem to say that will never change. That their minds can't change when in fact their relation to the production makes them open for that kinda ideas when society moves.


This was discussed in the Webb's book Soviet Communism. Stalin never sought equalisation of wages, so this point is rather irrelevent. Indeed, I don't doubt that the party did receive greater wages than certain other labourers. I would encourage you to read the book to see what Lenin and Stalin said about wages.

Ahh the Webbs again. Yes you are correct than Stalin also abandoned this communist principle. As he abandoned countless others.


I don't think I feel any alienation towards workers. I accept people for what they are as products of their environment. To do any different would be utterly unscientific and thus not Marxist at all. I don't hold contempt for people, only ideas. I may live in a well-off family however I still come into contact with many working-class people. For example, I have worker 20-30 hours a week as a cleaner in a hospital for 2 years and I don't feel alienated from the type of people I work with. As such I don't think this is my reason for advocating a particular political system that I have not experienced first-hand.

You did seem quite alianated, that's why I wrote it. I dunno why else you should think socialism was impossible in Britain (or other developed countries). A marxist analysis would go in another direction. Then you would look at how people actually move from time to time and become open to socialism. Like France in 68. Portugal in 74. Spain later and so on. Instead youy have substituted that analysis with defeatism. But of course if all thought like you we would indeed not have socialism, im well aware.


This is true, however I do not think there is much scope in Britain for practicing a Marxist-Leninist society. I was not criticising your revolutionary work but rather your view of history and politics.

Well im criticising both your view on history and lack of activity. I think your inactivity has lead you to that useless ideology you uphold. Actions (and lack of) together with your situation has lead you to an ideology were other should do the work for you. And some great leader take care of everything.

Daymare17
26th September 2004, 15:21
Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 13 2004, 07:08 PM
This was discussed in the Webb's book Soviet Communism. Stalin never sought equalisation of wages, so this point is rather irrelevent. Indeed, I don't doubt that the party did receive greater wages than certain other labourers. I would encourage you to read the book to see what Lenin and Stalin said about wages.
First you ignore most of the argument, then you try to answer a small part by seriously arguing that socialism does not mean equality. Lenin wrote a book called State and Revolution in which he dealt with these things. I hear it is quite popular in Leninist circles. Perhaps you should read it some time.

Daymare17
26th September 2004, 15:21
Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 13 2004, 07:08 PM
This was discussed in the Webb's book Soviet Communism. Stalin never sought equalisation of wages, so this point is rather irrelevent. Indeed, I don't doubt that the party did receive greater wages than certain other labourers. I would encourage you to read the book to see what Lenin and Stalin said about wages.
First you ignore most of the argument, then you try to answer a small part by seriously arguing that socialism does not mean equality. Lenin wrote a book called State and Revolution in which he dealt with these things. I hear it is quite popular in Leninist circles. Perhaps you should read it some time.

Daymare17
26th September 2004, 15:21
Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 13 2004, 07:08 PM
This was discussed in the Webb's book Soviet Communism. Stalin never sought equalisation of wages, so this point is rather irrelevent. Indeed, I don't doubt that the party did receive greater wages than certain other labourers. I would encourage you to read the book to see what Lenin and Stalin said about wages.
First you ignore most of the argument, then you try to answer a small part by seriously arguing that socialism does not mean equality. Lenin wrote a book called State and Revolution in which he dealt with these things. I hear it is quite popular in Leninist circles. Perhaps you should read it some time.

T_SP
19th October 2004, 21:12
Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Sep 10 2004, 04:03 AM--> (Comrade RAF @ Sep 10 2004, 04:03 AM)
Urban [email protected] 10 2004, 12:44 AM
So....instead of refuting the points raised in the article, you thought you'd take this time to bash Trotsky ? I know you Stalinists are consumed with hatred for Trot, but try to stay on topic.
You must not be familiar with who Alan Woods is Rubble.


The only point to the article was to create yet another Trot vs. Stalin debate.

Don't worry, only the incredibly daft or incredibly aged bother with Alan Woods. [/b]
:lol: :lol:
The whole Ted Grant, Rob Sewell, Alan Woods clan are living in the sixties!! I personally didn't read the article or the thread but found RAF's comment very amusing amd true!! This should be in History :lol: :lol:

Louis Pio
22nd October 2004, 09:03
The whole Ted Grant, Rob Sewell, Alan Woods clan are living in the sixties!!

Heh, and SP has discovered the wheel once more? One then wonders why they could throw their massive support away without any analysis of why it happened. From 8000 to 200-300 real members are not that impressive.

You should take a look at the different positions after the Walton by-election, as you might remember the decision to stand independent was one of the main reasons for the destruction of 40 years of work. And then after the failure became evident your lot went out and proclaimed it a victory.
Majority Resolution on Walton (http://www.marxist.com/ourhistory/maj_resn_walton.htm)
Minority Resolution (http://www.marxist.com/ourhistory/min_resn_walton.htm)

The proofs in the pudding as they say, but of course if one refuses to study history and analyse it then it is indeed a closed book.

T_SP
23rd October 2004, 08:21
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 10:03 AM
Heh, and SP has discovered the wheel once more? One then wonders why they could throw their massive support away without any analysis of why it happened. From 8000 to 200-300 real members are not that impressive.

You should take a look at the different positions after the Walton by-election, as you might remember the decision to stand independent was one of the main reasons for the destruction of 40 years of work. And then after the failure became evident your lot went out and proclaimed it a victory.
Majority Resolution on Walton (http://www.marxist.com/ourhistory/maj_resn_walton.htm)
Minority Resolution (http://www.marxist.com/ourhistory/min_resn_walton.htm)

The proofs in the pudding as they say, but of course if one refuses to study history and analyse it then it is indeed a closed book.
Your facts are worthless my friend, just some numbers you dreamed up or were told by old hacks in your party. Why not go back to them and ask for the truth!!

Louis Pio
27th October 2004, 18:32
Yeah 200-300 was a bit low. One of your branch secretaries told me around 400 real members. And even if you had the 2000 members you claim it would be 400% drop since 92 and still you go on about it being a succes. It's a shame people have to read the Weekly Worker to see any discussion about the grave miscalculations of the 90'ies. The basic point of Taaffe was that several thousand was waiting to join, only thing that kept them from that was that the tendency was in Labour. All those things have been proven wrong by the last 10 years. And still I ask myself how you could be so stupid to change the name of the paper. Everybody knew the Militant, even here in Denmark. But I guess you had to break with the history of the tendency. Militant had around 8000 - 10.000 supporters in the start of the 90'ies, all that was lost because of what I would view as illusions of grandeur. And the worst thing is that you haven't even provided a indebt analysis of how Labour suddenly changed, yeah there is a righwing leadership now but that's nothing new. And it takes a hell of a lot more analysis to change your politics in such a way. And that you haven't provided.
It's a shame Taaffe doesn't follow what he wrote in his exellent book (together with Tony Mulhearn) "Liverpool - a citty that dared to fight". And internationally... well I don't have to tell you about your failures in Scotland, Pakistan and Ukraine I reckon?

trotsky_lives
16th November 2004, 14:48
You are quite right. We have no were near the 8,000 members of the late 80's/early 90's. In fact you would be perfectly correct to attack us for our "red 90's" slogan. But merely stating the obvious is not enough. The class conscious worker who is intersted in socialist ideas will want more than pretty slogans borrowed from your "unbroken" leaders who never put a foot wrong.

We have answered these arguments in our book, the rise of militant, where we explain in an honest and comradely way the split. Giving due credit to the massive sacrifices of woods and grant. Which is more than can be said of your History of British Trotskyism (history of British Grantism) which slanders and re-writes more as it teaches and educates.

By the way how many members have you got in Britain. We are of course still a small party in ireland, but we got 5% of the vote across the city of Dublin in the last European Elections, despite the fact that we concentrated on the local elections taking place the same day and ran a virtual shoe-string campaign for the Euro's

Some questions for you, comrade. Why is your organisation shouldering up to sectarian and paramilitary murderers in N, Ireland. Did you not know the Irsp have abandoned murdering protestant workers for selling drugs. That one of their leading members threatened to murder a member of the socialist party. If anything is a threat to 40 years work it is this type of poltical prostitution.

The wonderful Mr. Woods dedicated not a small part of his time to publishing an open letter to Irish Republicans - why not a letter to Irish socialists or even better, irish workers? What is a protestant class conscious worker to make of this - that he must be a republican to be taken seriously by the IMT/CMI?