Elian Gonzalez What you think about it?

[The New Yorker]

Well im curious guys,

What do you think about the whole Elian Gonzalez thing?

I know its been a while but you're opines are different from the ones I hear,

So lets see.

What do you think about the returning of him? are you for it or against it?

That infamous photo of the swat member pointing the gun at them in the closet what do you think of that?

ok that’s all the questions i got feel free to add to them.



Personally I believe that he should of been handed over and there’s nothing big about it ether.

And the part where the gun was pointed at him and the other women to me is fine. Police go into these buildings not knowing if these people will go out shooting, so how do you blame them.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Wait!
Did I just exit a time machine just then, because I thought I recall you talking about Elian Gonzales....
:lol:

Anyway... I am agaisnt kidnapping children from their fathers.

[Trump_$$$]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:45 AM
Wait!
Did I just exit a time machine just then, because I thought I recall you talking about Elian Gonzales....
:lol:

Anyway... I am agaisnt kidnapping children from their fathers.
He should have stayed. Sending him back to that shithole on the sea was wrong.

:(

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

You say he should have stayed in America? What the fuck?

The two people whose opinions mettered: his father and him said otherwise. So I guess what they think doesn't matter, right?

Choke on a fat wad of cash, you fascist piece of shit.

[Trump_$$$]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 02:56 AM
You say he should have stayed in America? What the fuck?

The two people whose opinions mettered: his father and him said otherwise. So I guess what they think doesn't matter, right?

Choke on a fat wad of cash, you fascist piece of shit.
Lol,

You only say that because your fucked up logic says that Cuba is a better place with more opportunity. Anyone with half a brain knows that's bullshit and he would of been better off here. So you are right. You we should have done what is best for him and not what is best for you and your revolutionary army of rejects.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

To keep him Elian in America would be against the will of Elian and his legal guardian. It's not for the good of the progressive leftist cause that I advocate this, but because I believe in freedom.

So go suck Hitler's dead, shriveled dick, ass-hole.

[Colombia]

The kid was spoiled and from what I hear his father has some wealth no?

[Trump_$$$]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 03:09 AM
So go suck Hitler's dead, shriveled dick, ass-hole.
I can't. Your mom already ate it.

[The New Yorker]

Come on guys thats not lady like keep it on the topic or take it to PM

[Trump_$$$]

Originally posted by The New [email protected] 4 2004, 03:12 AM
Come on guys thats not lady like keep it on the topic or take it to PM
Anyone else find it hilarious that this pecker is a commie and believes in freedom? I guess he missed all the other attempts at communism and what they led to.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Hey, my personal attacks are okay, because they always follow a real argument and I'm not an unwanted capitalist. =D


I guess he missed all the other attempts at communism and what they led to.

They led to capitalism as an inevitable result of the objective material conditions of that country. Socialism can only be attempted, according to Karl Marx, after all of the means of oppression of the ruling class have been exhausted. This only occurs after the highest stages of capitalism.

The people in those countries which attempted socialism never wanted to go back to capitalism. The general public necessarily benefits from socialism, otherwise it isn't socialism, is it?

[Trump_$$$]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 03:24 AM
Hey, my personal attacks are okay, because they always follow a real argument and I'm not an unwanted capitalist. =D



They led to capitalism as an inevitable result of the objective material conditions of that country. Socialism can only be attempted, according to Karl Marx, after all of the means of oppression of the ruling class have been exhausted. This only occurs after the highest stages of capitalism.

The people in those countries which attempted socialism never wanted to go back to capitalism. The general public necessarily benefits from socialism, otherwise it isn't socialism, is it?
Roll up another one and everything will be ok. Just keep yourself numb until you keel over and start burning.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by Trump_$$$@Sep 3 2004, 10:27 PM
Roll up another one and everything will be ok. Just keep yourself numb until you keel over and start burning.
You just completely convinced me right there with that one.
What was I thinking with all that materialist, Marxist-Leninist, communist non-sense?

You are the most eloquent and successful debater I've ever met.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Keep sucking that corporate teat, Mr Trump.

[cormacobear]

He'll receive a better education, free Healcare, etc. if he wanted to escape to america he shouyld wait till he gets from Cuba what Americans refuse the majority of it's citizens.

And I don't blame the police for useing the methods they used it was a tense situation and with the proliferation of guns in the U.S. they had every reason to expect a firefight

[Comrade Hector]

Originally posted by Trump_$$$@Sep 4 2004, 02:26 AM
He should have stayed. Sending him back to that shithole on the sea was wrong.

:(
So you believe that Elian's father should've been restricted to raise his son, because he wanted to bring him up in Cuba? That's your motto, when a son/daughter is kidnapped from a parent from a nation unfriendly to the USA, he should stay separated from that parent whom would rather raise him/her in their country after the kidnapping parent has died. Ignorant Fuck!

[Y2A]

Isn't the rule that if you make it to American shores from Cuba, they can't take you back? I recall hearing this somewhere.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 06:57 AM
Isn't the rule that if you make it to American shores from Cuba, they can't take you back? I recall hearing this somewhere.
Where have you been? :lol: I heard that you can't work in the US legally, unless you are either a natural citizen or have a green card, anyone else know if this is true? :lol:

[cormacobear]

That's great.
besides they didn't make him go back they let him go back.
Guess what country has the most political prisoners in Cuba?
Cmon guess

[Bourgeoisie]

Why on earth would anyone want to leave Cuba? They have FREEDOM for christ sake.

Why would they want to risk their life in Shark infested waters? They have everything they need in Cuba, and FREEDOM!

When was the last time you heard of someone trying to escape to Cuba?

[cormacobear]

Canada gets a great many individuals seeking political asylum from the United States.

[Bourgeoisie]

Yeah perverts that don't want to go to jail. You do know that the N.A.M.B.A is in Canada don't you?

[socialistfuture]

americans go to canada to get away from the US govt and army sometimes - not just criminals. canada is known for being more liberal and progressive.

as to elian - i think it was propghanda on both sides - he had a right to live where he wanted - he wasa bit young to decide - rather unfortunate the whole thing happened - i wont say what should of happened - its not an easy decision.

[fuerzasocialista]

everytime I hear about this Elian busniess, I always hear how his mother gave her life so he could be free. Thats a bunch of bullshit. She left because that coyote boyfriend of hers made her. That jack-off was in Miami a year before that whole ordeal happened and he decided to go back to Cuba and live there for another year. What's wrong with that picture?? Why would a Cuban already in Miami go back to Cuba without being deported? He just left, INS did not make him. Word around the campfire was that that he was smuggling people across the Florida straits for $$$$. But people love to bring up that "Oh but his mother gave her life" shit. Then that whole fiasco in Little Havana with 24 hour vigils and so forth. As a former Miami resident, those people want Fidel to stay in power because if he doesn't, they will have no further purpose in life. A bunch of shallow, meaningless remnants of Batista's regime.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 08:14 AM
Why on earth would anyone want to leave Cuba? They have FREEDOM for christ sake.

Why would they want to risk their life in Shark infested waters? They have everything they need in Cuba, and FREEDOM!

When was the last time you heard of someone trying to escape to Cuba?
If they had so much freedom in Cuba why do boatloads of Cubans try to escape the island?? Why do they hijack boats and planes??? Because they have NO FREEDOM that's why.

The Cubans DON'T have everything they need........why do you think when tourists come they bring clothes, soap etc for the people?? When you go to the market to get fruit and veggies you have very little to choose from......you're lucky if you can get things like eggs. If the Cuban is lucky enough to have money then they'll get to eat meat.

There are many of us who have spent a long time in Cuba who actually know what the situation is there.......but you'll see very few of them post at this website since they don't necessarily agree with the politics of the country. Our spouses are from there and could tell you what the situation really is in Cuba........NO FREEDOM!!!!!

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[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 07:21 PM
americans go to canada to get away from the US govt and army sometimes - not just criminals. canada is known for being more liberal and progressive.

as to elian - i think it was propghanda on both sides - he had a right to live where he wanted - he wasa bit young to decide - rather unfortunate the whole thing happened - i wont say what should of happened - its not an easy decision.
Agree , the timing is a crucial thing, since he was too young back then. Anyway, he wanted to be back with his father and it is superfluous to debate over a boy&#39;s natural desire.


& what&#39;s more?

He can share his birthday cake with Abuelo Fidel. :P

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

There are many of us who have spent a long time in Cuba who actually know what the situation is there.......but you&#39;ll see very few of them post at this website since they don&#39;t necessarily agree with the politics of the country. Our spouses are from there and could tell you what the situation really is in Cuba........NO FREEDOM&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Are you Cuban?
And I don&#39;t believe your stupid spouse&#39;s stories. He&#39;s a dumbass gusano and can kiss my ass.

I can&#39;t fucking stand those fucking cowards running away from their country so they can make a few more bucks and eat ten fucking pounds of beef every day.

I&#39;ve been to Cuba. I visited some friends. They didn&#39;t receive any money from the US or anywhere else, and they lived very well. They also had meat, often. They had fish at least twice a week and pork and chicken sometimes as well.

The food thing isn&#39;t even a valid argument at all.
Because Cubans, while their GNP is lower than many other Latin American countries, the average daily caloric consumption is higher than even the wealthiest Latin American countries. Why? Because nobody in Cuba fucking starves to death. That shit happens in every other third world country on a daily basis. In fact, that should even be a hint that socialism works. People have the freedom to live. How about that, you fucking stupid gusano. FUCK OFF&#33;&#33; I can&#39;t stand these stupid cowards. Somebody ban this fucker, before I explode&#33;

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 10:08 PM

Are you Cuban?
And I don&#39;t believe your stupid spouse&#39;s stories. He&#39;s a dumbass gusano and can kiss my ass.

I can&#39;t fucking stand those fucking cowards running away from their country so they can make a few more bucks and eat ten fucking pounds of beef every day.

I&#39;ve been to Cuba. I visited some friends. They didn&#39;t receive any money from the US or anywhere else, and they lived very well. They also had meat, often. They had fish at least twice a week and pork and chicken sometimes as well.

The food thing isn&#39;t even a valid argument at all.
Because Cubans, while their GNP is lower than many other Latin American countries, the average daily caloric consumption is higher than even the wealthiest Latin American countries. Why? Because nobody in Cuba fucking starves to death. That shit happens in every other third world country on a daily basis. In fact, that should even be a hint that socialism works. People have the freedom to live. How about that, you fucking stupid gusano. FUCK OFF&#33;&#33; I can&#39;t stand these stupid cowards. Somebody ban this fucker, before I explode&#33;
First of all, he didn&#39;t run away from his country to make a few bucks.......he moved here because he married me........and he knows I wouldn&#39;t live in Cuba as long as there is a communist government as I wouldn&#39;t be able to work in my field. I&#39;m a highly skilled professional and know that my skills are worth a lot more than what Cuba pays it&#39;s professionals.

Second of all......we don&#39;t eat pounds of beef every day nor do we want to. Your argument doesn&#39;t wash with those of us that actually know what goes on in Cuba. The only way Cubans can afford meat on a daily basis is if they are getting money from somewhere.....be it relatives in other countries or working in tourism. One of the biggest problems that Cuba has had in the past and to some degree now is MALNUTRITION.

My spouse laughs at assholes like you that have never lived under a communist government but think you know everything about it because you&#39;ve read all about it.......

In my hubby&#39;s words......MAMAR MI PINGA&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

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[Dr. Rosenpenis]

One of the biggest problems that Cuba has had in the past and to some degree now is MALNUTRITION.

LIE&#33;
It occurred in the past as a result of fascism. It does not occur now. Not by any means. Tell your "hubby" to suck a cock.

Proof:
Article (http://www.unm.edu/~nvaldes/Cuba/nutri.htm)
The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization has stated that the "drastic change" in income distribution in Cuba led to a major increase, on the order of 13 to 14%, in food demand leading to an improvement in overall diet.[26] In fact, despite the drop in food production, the country achieved a progressive increment in its caloric intake per inhabitant--which has remained above the minimum daily requirement. By 1975, the actual caloric intake had matched the mathematical average of the 1950s. By 1981 the daily caloric consumption per capita reached almost 2900.[27] In all of Latin America, only Argentina surpasses Cuba.

Also tell your "hubby" and all of his gusano buddies to eat shit. I hate him, and every other coward who, after given the chance to redeem their capitalist asses, still chose to betray his comrades and escape like a little prick to the US.

[socialistfuture]

the only thing that stoped a disaster in Cuba from the sanctions if the Cuban health care system - any other third world nation would of had a himanatarian disaster.

cuba is not perfect - at least is is independant from the united states unlike many other nations (iraq being the latest).

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:14 AM
Why on earth would anyone want to leave Cuba? They have FREEDOM for christ sake.

Why would they want to risk their life in Shark infested waters? They have everything they need in Cuba, and FREEDOM&#33;

When was the last time you heard of someone trying to escape to Cuba?
Cuba gets refugees from places like Haiti and the Dominican Republic all the time.

To Bourgeoisie (and sparky44): Think about the comparison you&#39;re making for a second. Is it more appropriate to compare Castro&#39;s achievements in Cuba to American standards, or to the standards of other Third World countries - especially ones that have suffered over forty years of embargoes, forced isolation, sanctions terrorist attacks, bombings, assassinations of officials, and full-scale military invasion? (I&#39;m sure you can find others, if you look hard enough.)

Explain why.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 12:05 AM

LIE&#33;
It occurred in the past as a result of fascism. It does not occur now. Not by any means. Tell your "hubby" to suck a cock.

Proof:
Article (http://www.unm.edu/~nvaldes/Cuba/nutri.htm)
The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization has stated that the "drastic change" in income distribution in Cuba led to a major increase, on the order of 13 to 14%, in food demand leading to an improvement in overall diet.[26] In fact, despite the drop in food production, the country achieved a progressive increment in its caloric intake per inhabitant--which has remained above the minimum daily requirement. By 1975, the actual caloric intake had matched the mathematical average of the 1950s. By 1981 the daily caloric consumption per capita reached almost 2900.[27] In all of Latin America, only Argentina surpasses Cuba.

Also tell your "hubby" and all of his gusano buddies to eat shit. I hate him, and every other coward who, after given the chance to redeem their capitalist asses, still chose to betray his comrades and escape like a little prick to the US.
First of all......my hubby and his friends don&#39;t live in the U.S......we live in Canada. Which is a much better country then the U.S. He and his friends didn&#39;t betray their comrades......they chose to move so they could live with their spouses.......long distance marriages are very hard and very costly. And he would rather be here when his baby comes then be in Cuba and miss out on the big event. Would you like to be separated from your wife (if you could possible get one) when she&#39;s having your child???

I would think that the Cubans know more about what is going on in Cuba than someone who doesn&#39;t live there......which you obviously don&#39;t live there so how the f**k would you know.

[cormacobear]

yes Canada is a more socially responsible country than the U.S., for example it and ecry other member of the united nations voted to end the embargo on Cuba but the U.S. vetoed it.

The shortages in Cuba have nothing to do with socialism they are a product of an immoral embargo enforced by a country quite keen on causeing others to suffer.

The people of Cuba are free. They&#39;re free to remove their government if they disagree with it. We know they nknow how they&#39;ve done it before. But why would you remove a gov&#39;t. that provides you with one of the best education, healcare systems, and provides the greatest level of national equality on the planet.

[socialistfuture]

put simply - fidel would not have lasted so long if a great amount of people did not believe in him. cuba has been a beacon for latin american independence and a ray of hope for poor and troubled peoples around the world. che is just one part of that symbol and ideal of change for the better.

sparky44 - have u been to cuba? do u desire to visit it? does ure husband ever miss it? how did u guys meet originally?

[Danton]

What struck me about the whole Elian Gonzalez story was how both oppossing parties used such a tragedy (Elian was among three survivors from the 15 who initially travelled) to score callous political points.

Elians mother Elizabet Broton, did indeed sacrifice herself to saving the boy as did the men - he was tied to one of only two inner tubes they had, his mother clung to it until she slipped into the sea. The two other survivors, Nivaldo Fernandez and his girlfriend Arianne Horta were found purple, shrivelled and fish bitten by two horrified fishermen. Here is a direct quote from Nivaldo..

*"I lived a lot better in Cuba than I&#39;m living here now" He had left behind a wife, a good job and a new house in Cardenas. Nivaldo is black and is finding it difficult to adjust to Miami&#39;s 95% white Cuban exile community. 65 - 70% of people on the Island are black and treated equally whereas the Gusano&#39;s look down upon him.

Rafael Munero, the organizer of the trip had indeed been back and forth from Miami a couple of times, traffiking human cargo and being paid handsomely.
The sad fact is that families are torn apart by the respective political machines of both nations and the Florida straits are a watery graveyard for perhaps thousands. When will it end? When Washington changes the dry foot policy and stops granting aslyum to Cuban emigre&#39;s.

* Quote from Anne Louise Bardach&#39;s - Cuba confidential.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 03:30 AM
put simply - fidel would not have lasted so long if a great amount of people did not believe in him. cuba has been a beacon for latin american independence and a ray of hope for poor and troubled peoples around the world. che is just one part of that symbol and ideal of change for the better.

sparky44 - have u been to cuba? do u desire to visit it? does ure husband ever miss it? how did u guys meet originally?
I have been to Cuba many times and have spent extensive time there.......that&#39;s where I met my husband. Until he immigrated to Canada I was back and forth on a regular basis. Sure my husband misses home......just as any immigrant would miss there homeland when they first move away......there is always that period of adjustment but he has managed to adapt. It&#39;s not the country we dislike......it&#39;s the political system we disagree with. Both of us feel that with a one party system you really have no choice but with a multi-party system you can choose who you want to vote for.

I do agree with my husband when he says everything CAN&#39;T be blamed on the embargo as Cuba does trade with other countries as well. We were visiting family in Cuba when Bush decided to change the rules about how often Cuban expats can visit their families from once yearly to every three years......but in retaliation Castro closed all the dollar stores (stores where only the u.s. dollar can be used) and only allowed the sale of food, personal hygiene products and cleaning products........thus setting a panic amongst the people and making it damn near impossible to obtain much food. He closed the stores for a week so he could up the price of everything in these stores putting a lot of these products out of the reach of many Cubans. The only people this hurt were the Cubans since it would have no effect on Bush.

There is nothing truly free anywhere in Cuba.......education may not cost anything monetarily but you have to pay for it with time spent working for the government at lower pay then the tourist worker makes. Castro does send his drs to other countries to work in other countries......and they don&#39;t have any choice in that matter.

Even though many Cubans have a VCR it&#39;s not legal to have one and most are obtained either on the black market or from relatives in other countries. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a telephone.......the government only allows so many phones in a neighbourhood. As for internet service.......the Cuban can only access it at school, work (if available) or at the post office at a cost of &#036;5 u.s. which is very expensive for the average Cuban since they barely make &#036;20 u.s./month (if they&#39;re lucky) and every email is put through filters and screened. So you tell me......where is the freedom.......there is no freedom of speech or association etc. And once they find out you plan on emigrating to another country........you lose your job.......their words.......your spouse can support you. Now my husband doesn&#39;t agree with that......most Cuban men don&#39;t like to be supported by women.......it goes against their machismo upbringing. And this happens to anyone who is planning on leaving Cuba.........I&#39;ve seen it happen to too many people.

You can blame the U.S. all you want but both presidents feed off of each other.......what one does the other has to return fire........all very childish behaviour that belongs in a school playground.

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[cormacobear]

So you think more people should have VCR&#39;s and internet access even if that means some people go hungry or homeless.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 10:38 PM
So you think more people should have VCR&#39;s and internet access even if that means some people go hungry or homeless.
I never said that......you did. Don&#39;t try and put words in my mouth.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[cormacobear]

If your strongest argument against communism is the fact they have to share phones and there is a shortage of vcr&#39;s. Maybe you should spend some time in some of Canada&#39;s slums Hastings in Vancouver, Regent park in Toronto, or count the bodies of the homeless that freeze to death every winter in Edmonton.

Having a multi party system hasn&#39;t worked that well.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 10:57 PM
If your strongest argument against communism is the fact they have to share phones and there is a shortage of vcr&#39;s. Maybe you should spend some time in some of Canada&#39;s slums Hastings in Vancouver, Regent park in Toronto, or count the bodies of the homeless that freeze to death every winter in Edmonton.

Having a multi party system hasn&#39;t worked that well.
Never said that that was my strongest arguement against communism........I grew up in Parkdale and live not even 5 minute walk from Regent park as I have many friends that live in Regent park......most have phones there........and eat as well....I see many sitting drinking coffee and eating in the coffee shops here......cheaper to buy food in the store than it is to eat out. I have also seen enough homelessness here......and a lot of them don&#39;t want to get off of the streets and go to the shelters that are offered to them until they find a place to live. Of course the shelters aren&#39;t perfect but they&#39;re a damn sight better than sleeping on the streets in the dead of winter.

There is nothing wrong with a multiparty system......at least you have a choice......which is more then what I can say about Cuba. Remember Castro doesn&#39;t live in a house with a dirt floor and no running water or electricity.....as a matter of fact he has several houses which is more than what I can say for the rest of the country.

So you gotta do better then that.

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[Dr. Rosenpenis]

they chose to move so they could live with their spouses

Poor guy. I bet he regrets it.


I would think that the Cubans know more about what is going on in Cuba than someone who doesn&#39;t live there......which you obviously don&#39;t live there so how the f**k would you know.

Is that the best you can do against UN statistics? I&#39;m sorry for not having been born a Cuban, but facts are facts.

Multi-party "democracy" exist in every Latin American nation with the exception of Cuba, and I&#39;m very certain that many more Mexicans and Bolivians go without telephone access than Cubans. That&#39;s a shitty argument, for a shitty political stance.


Both of us feel that with a one party system you really have no choice but with a multi-party system you can choose who you want to vote for.

For somebody&#39;s who&#39;s so knowledgeable on Cuba, you sure don&#39;t know shit about it&#39;s government and the way it works.

Please do yourself a favor and read this article. (http://www.newhumanist.com/geiser.html)

And folks in a multi-party system are absolutely not free to make their own decisions. That&#39;s a capitalist myth&#33;

Tell me, if Americans are so fucking free, then why do they have to pay for basic medical care?

Brazilians "enjoy" a multi-party system. If they&#39;re so free, then why do millions upon millions of Brazilians die every year of a lack of medical care, lack of clean drinking water, and of starvation? And the ones who die are oftentimes not even the unemployed. Many members of the Latin-American working class who earn next to nothing, so you North Americans can have cheap telephones, televisions, and VCRs die of starvation, and easily-preventable diseases.

This doesn’t happen in Cuba. But you argue that they&#39;re not free because they have to share telephones and computers&#33;? You&#39;re fucking pathetic&#33;


in retaliation Castro closed all the dollar stores (stores where only the u.s. dollar can be used) and only allowed the sale of food, personal hygiene products and cleaning products........thus setting a panic amongst the people and making it damn near impossible to obtain much food. He closed the stores for a week so he could up the price of everything in these stores putting a lot of these products out of the reach of many Cubans. The only people this hurt were the Cubans since it would have no effect on Bush.

Lie&#33;

The common Cuban does not go shopping like a fucking gusano at these dollar-only stores. Those stores are for the fuckers who get money from their gusano relatives in Miami. Most Cubans were unaffected by the shutting down of these stores. In fact, I&#39;m sure many benefited, since they ultimately hurt Cubans by helping to create a dollar-oriented trade among the dollar-wielding Cubans.


You can blame the U.S. all you want but both presidents feed off of each other.......what one does the other has to return fire........all very childish behaviour that belongs in a school playground.

I don&#39;t see Fidel bullying other countries into their silly and unpopular embargo against their feeble political enemies. That would be childish, and that&#39;s what the US does. I don&#39;t see Fidel funding the plans of his political enemies&#39; former exiles to attack his weak political opponents. That is childish and that’s, once again, what the US does.

And posting 10 identical smiley faces at the end of your post is very mature.


I never said that......you did. Don&#39;t try and put words in my mouth.

That would be the result of giving the more "valuable" folks access to amenities like VCRs. One buck into one man&#39;s pocket, is one buck out of another man&#39;s pocket. Fuck that shit.

[sparky44]

No he doesn&#39;t regret it at all.......at least he doesn&#39;t have to work for 15 u.s. dollars a month anymore. Stats are just numbers that can be twisted around to say whatever the statition wants them to say. I don&#39;t speak for Americans as I&#39;m not American.......but here we have universal health care and clean water. Cubans don&#39;t have clean water.......and Cubans die of the same diseases that North Americans die of every year.......Complications of diabetes, heart disease, cancer, stroke etc etc etc. Don&#39;t give me your bullshit of them not dying of disease such as these common ones cause it happens everyday. I&#39;m very free to make my own decisions.....I can vote for whom I want......I can speak out against my government and not go to jail. Don&#39;t know where yuo get your info but I&#39;ve been in those stores and have seen many people shopping.....the average Cuban does need clothing, cleaning products, personal hygiene products etc......and I was there when they closed the stores......you weren&#39;t. And what is wrong with Cubans getting money from relatives in other countries??? The Cubans are very family oriented and believe in helping out their family. I don&#39;t know what your obsession is about Miami but my husband and I don&#39;t live in the U.S......we live in Canada.......where nothing is cheap. A lot of his friends emigrated here as well to be with their wives......not nice living far away from a spouse. Just remember that everything you read isn&#39;t always true.......do you believe everything you read??? From what I can see you do........which doesn&#39;t say much for your hate inspired mentality.

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[sparky44]

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[cormacobear]

http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/

If you would like to know the truth rather than base your opinion on the biased information given to us in our Canadian schools try looking it up.
More Dr&#39;s, nurses, dentists per 1000 in Cuba than in the U.S. or even Canada.

But since you seem only to understand anecdotal evidence rather than facts and statistics.
An aquaintance of mine (I worked with him) lost his home, him and his family ending up on the streets because he couldn&#39;t afford to pay his daughters ambulance bill, and his Families healthcare premiums here in Alberta.
He left a job in Cuba as a Naval Engineer to move to Canada where the only work he could find at thirty years old with fluent English was as a house painter at 9.00&#036; an hour.

In the year 1999 the WHO criticized Ontario. They estimated that 70% of Toronto&#39;s homeless were in need of full time mental health care. The result of years of budget cuts to Ontario Mental Health under their Conservative Government.

I also lived next to regent Park and none of the individuals I spoke with, living in tents and makeshift shelters had phones, let alone deodoreant or enough food.
Canadian homeless are not alowed to vote you need a permanent address and proof of your residence there to vote in any riding.

Freedom of choice if you earn enough.

10&#39;s of thousands of Canadians rely on untreated water. Particulairly Native and Rural communities.
And al ot more than 1 man in Canada owns more than one residence. If you asked those living in Regent park if they would live in a home provided at no cost with dirt floors I can&#39;t think of one I ever met that would turn it down.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 12:38 AM
http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/

If you would like to know the truth rather than base your opinion on the biased information given to us in our Canadian schools try looking it up.
More Dr&#39;s, nurses, dentists per 1000 in Cuba than in the U.S. or even Canada.

But since you seem only to understand anecdotal evidence rather than facts and statistics.
An aquaintance of mine (I worked with him) lost his home, him and his family ending up on the streets because he couldn&#39;t afford to pay his daughters ambulance bill, and his Families healthcare premiums here in Alberta.
He left a job in Cuba as a Naval Engineer to move to Canada where the only work he could find at thirty years old with fluent English was as a house painter at 9.00&#036; an hour.

In the year 1999 the WHO criticized Ontario. They estimated that 70% of Toronto&#39;s homeless were in need of full time mental health care. The result of years of budget cuts to Ontario Mental Health under their Conservative Government.

I also lived next to regent Park and none of the individuals I spoke with, living in tents and makeshift shelters had phones, let alone deodoreant or enough food.
Canadian homeless are not alowed to vote you need a permanent address and proof of your residence there to vote in any riding.

Freedom of choice if you earn enough.

10&#39;s of thousands of Canadians rely on untreated water. Particulairly Native and Rural communities.
And al ot more than 1 man in Canada owns more than one residence. If you asked those living in Regent park if they would live in a home provided at no cost with dirt floors I can&#39;t think of one I ever met that would turn it down.
I&#39;m not basing my info on what I learned in school......I base it on what I&#39;ve seen and lived. I already know that they have more medical personel per capital then any other country. Being a healthcare professional myself I know what is and isn&#39;t covered by our government.......if the ambulance is not for an emergency then you have to pay for it (as I reside in Ontario I know about Ontario)......this acquaintance must have called an ambulance for everything because they aren&#39;t that expensive. When they move here they need to get linked up with the right people to get credit for their education.....obviously noone told him about it.

And yes, a lot of the homeless are in need of mental help but there are many who refuse to take their medication and you can&#39;t force someone to take medication if they don&#39;t want to......so what would you like us to do with them.......hold them down and force them to take it???? Let&#39;s be realistic here. A lot of the homeless are either drunk or stoned......you want them to vote if they can barely read the ballot......and by the way......I voted when I wasn&#39;t working.......has nothing to do with income. And the people I knew and know in Regent Park all live in the housing projects and have phones as well as tv&#39;s and vcrs......some even have computers. And I see a lot of working people that don&#39;t use deodorant.....you&#39;ve been on the bus on a hot summer day I&#39;m sure.

Very few people in this country have untreated water.......the Natives want to govern themselves......then they can take care of their water themselves. Sire some people own more than one house in Canada.....many have worked hard all of their lives to pay for it to.....so what. If you give them handouts they never learn how to take care of themselves......low cost housing is a better answer and a job so they can pay for what they need. Give a man a fish he eats for a day but teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.......I believe in a hand up not a hand out.

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[cormacobear]

So you don&#39;t think that a thirty percent reduction in Bed space over four years only put those who don&#39;t want help on the streets.

How do you afford a home if you ahve no job, how do you get into a houseing project with no address.

Suggesting that homeless are that way by choice is ignorant.

Ontario doesn&#39;t have healthcare premiums wich is one of the nobest things about the province.

Yah teach him, for example Cuba has one of the highest average levels of education on the planet, as well as a literacy rate that puts most first world countries to shame.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 01:34 AM
So you don&#39;t think that a thirty percent reduction in Bed space over four years only put those who don&#39;t want help on the streets.

How do you afford a home if you ahve no job, how do you get into a houseing project with no address.

Suggesting that homeless are that way by choice is ignorant.

Ontario doesn&#39;t have healthcare premiums wich is one of the nobest things about the province.
I didn&#39;t say that......I think it was terrible that they closed beds......but no matter what the professionals tell the government they don&#39;t listen. There are people on the street that don&#39;t want help.....and I&#39;ve worked with many. And there are some on the street that want to be there.......it&#39;s a lifestyle for those that don&#39;t want to follow rules......like the rest of society. If they don&#39;t want to get off alcohol/drugs then we can&#39;t help them. I sure don&#39;t own a home.....all I do is rent an apartment.......the cost of living is quite high in this province.

Your last statement shows how truly out of touch you are with Ontario politics.....for a long time we paid premiums in this province based on whether you were married or not.......and now Dalton McGuinty has implemented them again......based on what your income is.......they are factored into our taxes so my taxes went up......cost of premiums per year range from &#036;300 - &#036;900/year.

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[cormacobear]

If it&#39;s factored into your taxes then it&#39;s a tax not a premium.
If the amount is determined by income it is moral.

In Alberta everyone over an unreasonably low standard, pays the same amount and receives a bill in the mail every three months.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Stats are just numbers that can be twisted around to say whatever the statition wants them to say.

So now I&#39;m the one believing everything I read, even if it&#39;s backed up with solid facts. Where as you, on the other hand, believe only things which lack a factual basis. Great&#33;


I don&#39;t speak for Americans as I&#39;m not American.......but here we have universal health care and clean water. Cubans don&#39;t have clean water.......and Cubans die of the same diseases that North Americans die of every year.......Complications of diabetes, heart disease, cancer, stroke etc etc etc. Don&#39;t give me your bullshit of them not dying of disease such as these common ones cause it happens everyday.

I said that Cubans don&#39;t die of the diseases found in other Latin American countries. And they don&#39;t. You cannot compare Cuba to a first world country like Canada. If not for socialism, Cuba would be suffering the terrible standard of living like the rest of Latin America, not enjoying the high standard of living you enjoy in Canada as a result of the first world&#39;s exploitation of labor.

The fact that Cubans have a standard of health comparable to that of Canada should be a hint that socialism has indeed improved life for Cubans. If not for socialism, Cuba wouldn&#39;t have an infant mortality rate lower than that of the United States.


I&#39;m very free to make my own decisions.....I can vote for whom I want......I can speak out against my government and not go to jail.

You may, but at whose cost? For you to have those amenities, there are billions of third worlders slaving in sweatshops every day for 14 hours or more, then dieing from having to drink filthy water.

Not every "democratic" capitalist nation is like Canada. That wouldn&#39;t even be possible.


Don&#39;t know where yuo get your info but I&#39;ve been in those stores and have seen many people shopping.....the average Cuban does need clothing, cleaning products, personal hygiene products etc......and I was there when they closed the stores......you weren&#39;t.

Dollar-only shops are not the only place where Cubans can acquire those goods.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 02:08 AM
If it&#39;s factored into your taxes then it&#39;s a tax not a premium.
If the amount is determined by income it is moral.

In Alberta everyone over an unreasonably low standard, pays the same amount and receives a bill in the mail every three months.
It used to be that way in Ontario as well.......but they charge the premiums based on your income and it comes out of your paycheck.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

No reply, eh?

By the way, have you read that article I linked you to? It&#39;s pretty good. For someone who boasts so much knowledge on the subject, you sure need to know how the Cuban government actually works. The people are very free indeed. Free to govern themselves and free to work for themselves, as opposed to working to increase the capital power of their class opponents.

[sparky44]

Actually just got up a little while ago as I have been working the night shift and haven&#39;t had a chance to read the posts........don&#39;t have time at work......as I actually have work to do but will post once I&#39;ve read it.

[EL CHICO ROJO]

well about the argument that cubans are escaping to the usa
think about this mexicans cross the border every day .y? Poor economic conditions
think of this i am of ecuadorian decent ive visit my family everi year there ............ they are extremely poor we bring them cash and appliences when we visit but the ecuadorian gov is extremely capitialist my family there would love free heathcare or food everyday but they dont have that. the people of south america admire the cuban gov and castro ..so why dont u sad people stop *****ing ... or is it that you want to regain control over your
countri to exploit your fellow cubans?