The Fire Bombing of Dresden

[Hate Is Art]

Huge bombs were dropped on the city, one of the largest single airraids in the whole war, the bombs created huge fires all over the city. Soon it was completly abalze, I hear very few buildings survived, something like 86% of the city was destroyed.

The huge fires used all the availible oxygen causing anyone who didn't burn to death to suffocate.

Thats a very brief overview of the attacks, so would you consider it genocide? And why don't we learn about this attrocity? It remains conveniently buried.

[apathy maybe]

While I think that it was a disgusting act on the part of the Allies, I don't think it is genocide. Genocide means the killing of an entire group (or race whatever). The Allies weren't trying to destroy all Germans (nor, later did the Yanks try and destroy all Japanese by dropping a nuke on two of their cities, though that also was unwarranted, unnecessary and a war crime).

[h&s]

It wasn't genocide, but it was terrorism. At the Nurmeburg war trials the allies (well just us Brits) wanted to try the nazis on charges of terrorism for the bombings of Coventry and the East-end of London, but then they realised they would be liable for the same charges for their bombings of the German cities. They promptly 'forgot' those crimes....

[gaf]

not a genocide.but organized mass murder.200.000 people died there more than atome bome droped in japan.but yeah good way to come with a marshal plan and reconstruct europa.slim and bloody they were,and still are(i don' t give excuses to nazi there).

[Sabocat]

It definitely can be considered a war crime.

In addition the initial bombing, there was a delay between the next wave that was planned to kill survivors and medics that came out after the first wave to help the injured.

Dresden was a peaceful artist community, known mostly for a particular china I think. It had no military significance. It was meant to kill civilians and demoralize the population. Clearly in violation of Geneva Convention rules of engagement.

Dresden killed far more civilians than any of the bombings of England.

[__ca va?]

It is war crime. But in fact war is crime. So it's not a bigger crime than bombing Warsaw, Guernica (Germans), Hamburg, Essen, Budapest (allies). Or I could add killing 22.000.000 Russian soldiers during the war.
War is genocide!

[Hate Is Art]

The Germans bombed Guernica?? Got any info on that??

War is crime yes, but certain things are even more unacceptable then regular violence, such as killing of children and women.

How would everyone define genocide though? It killed 200,000 Germans purely because they were German, if Dresden had say been in France or Switzerland then it wouldn't have been targeted, so the reason for the attack was because the city was populated with Germans. The Killing of 200,000 Germans I think qualifys as Genocide.

[monkeydust]

It wasn't genocide, but it was certainly a massacre; one that British textbooks tend to skimp over with caution.

In light of the atom bomb, it guess it got ignored.

[MiniOswald]

guernica? course they bombed it, aint you seen the picasso picture?

Anyways, england was lookin for vengeance with dresden
'they have sown the wind now let them reap the whirlwind' an all that sorta thing.
the brits wanted pay back for the bombings on conventry they couldnt stop.


simple as, blind revenge

[Ian]

The Condor Legion from Germany was sent to Spain to fight, they did the bombing of Guernica.

[Munchimoniam]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 03:14 PM
not a genocide.but organized mass murder.200.000 people died
What is your source for that figure?

[Monty Cantsin]

My sources say it was 350,000 that died at Dresden and i'd call the bombing of Dresden the Holocaust.

[Munchimoniam]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 05:00 AM
My sources say it was 350,000 that died at Dresden and i'd call the bombing of Dresden the Holocaust.
This is the figure given by the Nazi historian, David Irving. The original German estimate was only about 50, 000, but Irving argued that the Germans deliberately knocked off the 3 from the total in order to make bombing raids appear less effective to the Russians. This is of course one of the most presumptuous and unsubstantiated claims ever made by a historian.

[__ca va?]

The Germans bombed Guernica?? Got any info on that??

War is crime yes, but certain things are even more unacceptable then regular violence, such as killing of children and women.

How would everyone define genocide though? It killed 200,000 Germans purely because they were German, if Dresden had say been in France or Switzerland then it wouldn't have been targeted, so the reason for the attack was because the city was populated with Germans. The Killing of 200,000 Germans I think qualifys as Genocide.

They bombed it because the Germans sent military aids to the Spanish fascists in the Spanish revolution. One of these aids was when the luftwaffe bombed Guernica, a town of the socialists.

Dresden wasn't bombed because the inhabitants were Germans. That would have been genocide. Dresden was bombed because it was a city of the enemy. It doesn't matter who lives in it as long as it is a city of your enemy. If the allies had wanted to kill all the Germans they would have been bombing the German part of Switzerland too. It is like Holocaust is genocide because the Germans deported anyone who was Jewish, from any place they occupied.

[Monty Cantsin]

i dont like the beat up about around the Holocaust, yes the jews were targeted and treated really badly but they weren't the only groups targeted. And besides that a holocaust is a ritual sacrifice by burring – not gassing.

I think the word holocaust is inappropriate for talking about Hitler's genocide of Jews, Dresden fights the meaning of Holocaust alot better.

Edit: Munchimoniam, i didnt know that, at least i learn something new every day.

[Kez]

wtf you talking about? The Jews were the mass majority of those killed in the holocaust, although me must never ever forget the others who were also killed such as the trade unionists, gypsies, gays it is an undeniable fact that it was for the majority jews who were killed, so dont fuck around and deny this fact.

[Hate Is Art]

the jews bodys were burnt as well after gassing.

I thought you were reffering to them bombing Guernica durign the 2nd World War not during the Spanish Civil War, I knew they supplied aid to the fascists during the conflict, how badly was guernica hit?

I think this is what the song "my guernica" by the Manics Was about?

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 10:26 AM
wtf you talking about? The Jews were the mass majority of those killed in the holocaust, although me must never ever forget the others who were also killed such as the trade unionists, gypsies, gays it is an undeniable fact that it was for the majority jews who were killed, so dont fuck around and deny this fact.
i know that but people seem to forget that other people were killed also.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 04:22 PM
It definitely can be considered a war crime.

In addition the initial bombing, there was a delay between the next wave that was planned to kill survivors and medics that came out after the first wave to help the injured.

Dresden was a peaceful artist community, known mostly for a particular china I think. It had no military significance. It was meant to kill civilians and demoralize the population. Clearly in violation of Geneva Convention rules of engagement.

Dresden killed far more civilians than any of the bombings of England.
Thats not strictly true, Dresden was a major transport link for german troops travelling between eastern and western front, and had some factories and military target, however the great irony is that the majority of the bombing was targetted on civillian area's and industry was largley ignored. This leads me to the impression that its was for a different reason, the soviets would shortly enter Dresden, and apparently briefing notes indicate it was a display of the power of British airpower.

A definate war crime.

[commiecrusader]

Originally posted by __ca [email protected] 4 2004, 07:28 AM

They bombed it because the Germans sent military aids to the Spanish fascists in the Spanish revolution. One of these aids was when the luftwaffe bombed Guernica, a town of the socialists.
hitler also wanted to try out his new 'blitzkrieg' approach to warfare and experiment with his new luftwaffe. it is seen by some historians as a practice run for his tactics in wwII, kind of in the same way you could look at Iraq being the first demonstration really of 'shock & awe' tactics (which are very similar to those of a blitzkrieg.... :ph34r: )

[BOZG]

Originally posted by The Arcadian [email protected] 4 2004, 01:12 PM
the jews bodys were burnt as well after gassing.

I thought you were reffering to them bombing Guernica durign the 2nd World War not during the Spanish Civil War, I knew they supplied aid to the fascists during the conflict, how badly was guernica hit?

I think this is what the song "my guernica" by the Manics Was about?
Quite badly though I don't have figures. The Legion also returned to gun down survivors as they fled the city into the countryside from what I can remember.

[__ca va?]

I heard the word "holocaust" means "burning sacrifice" or something like that. The
The Jews call it "shoa" (if I spelled correctly), which means genocide.
They don't like the word "holocaust" because it refers to the shoa from the point of view of the Nazis.

[Hate Is Art]

oh righty, so the Jews would call it Shoa?? Or something else?? I don't think I Understand??

[pedro san pedro]

i believe kurt vonnegut jnr was there as a p.o.w - he wrote slaughter house 5 about the experience.

he's definately one of my favourite fiction writers, check him out.

after experiencing this he, strangley enough, became a peace activist

[Sabocat]

An interesting book on the subject.


Dresden 1945: The Devil's Tinderbox

by Alexander McKee


# By the end of Summer, 1944, "there is evidence that the Western Allies were contemplating some terrible but swift end to the war by committing an atrocity which would terrify the enemy into instant surrender. Without doubt, the inner truth has still to be prised loose, but the thread of thought can be discerned."

# "The bomber commanders were not really interested in any purely military or economic targets .... What they were looking for was a big built-up area which they could burn .... The attraction Dresden had for Bomber Command was that the centre of the city should burn easily and magnificentlv: as indeed it was to do."

# At the time of the attacks on February 13/14, 1945, the inhabitants of Dresden wore mostly women and children, many of whom had just arrived as refugees from the East. There were also large numbers of Allied POWs. Few German males of military age were left in the city environs. The author cites the official Bomber Command history prepared by Sir Charles Webster and Dr. Noble Frankland, which reveals that "the unfortunate, frozen, starving civilian refugees were the first object of the attack, before military movements "

# Dresden was virtually undefended. Luftwaffe fighters stationed in the general vicinity were grounded for lack of fuel. With the exception of a few light guns, the anti-aircraft batteries had been dismantled for employment elsewhere. McKee quotes one British participant in the raid, who reported that "our biggest problem, quite truly, was with the chance of being hit by bombs from other Lancasters flying above us."

# Targets of genuine military significance were not hit, and had not even been included on the official list of targets. Among the neglected military targets was the railway bridge spanning the Elbe River, the destruction of which could have halted rail traffic for months. The railway marshalling yards in Dresden were also outside the RAF target area. The important autobahn bridge to the west of the city was not attacked. Rubble from damaged buildings did interrupt the flow of traffic within the city, "but in terms of the Eastern Front communications network, road transport was virtually unimpaired."

# In the course of the USAF daylight raids, American fighter- bombers strafed civilians: "Amongst these people who had lost everything in a single night, panic broke out. Women and children were massacred with cannon and bombs. It was mass murder." American aircraft even attacked animals in the Dresden Zoo. The USAF was still at it in late April, with Mustangs strafing Allied POWs they discovered working in fields.

# The author concludes that, "Dresden had been bombed for political and not military reasons; but again, without effect. There was misery, but it did not affect the war." Some have suggested that the bombing of Dresden was meant to serve as a warning to Stalin of what sort of destruction the Western Powers were capable of dealing. If that was their intent, it certainly failed to accomplish the objective.