Lads, Does Communism Work?? - Coz i can't see how

[Vladimir]

Right, ye all are communists right but i cant see how or why ye follow it, because there are many benefits in a capitalist soceity but dont get me wrong i am not a cappie, i am a democratic socialist kind of, i dont want to be labelled or label myself with a political system coz none really work perfectly.

I am not a cappie, Capitalism doesn't work properly because of greed and corruption, this is also a problem with communism.
The way i see it is, a comunist state wont work because of greed and dishonesty, and there is not enough support for it.
The so-called ''middle class'' dont want communism coz they dont want there stuff or money taken, either do the rich, the only people who want it are the poor, why because they see people with a happy life and they want it too.
If we could imlement a proper democratic socialist system where corporate tax is higher and normal tax is reduced, this money could be used to bring all classes to a good state of living.

Now, i want ye to tell me or show me if and how communism could work, so i am keeping an open mind to it.

Thank you,
Campánach Reamonn.

[El Che]

Your right Marxist-Leninism "does not work", but nither is it Communism. And I dont care what works for who, I care about what is ethical.

[Son of Scargill]

I too see your point IG32.In the developed world most are too comfortable to even be bothered about the vast majority in the world who will never know such standards of living.In order for a better balance in the world industrialised nations must cap,or even better,lower living standards to a degree in order to bring the poorer sections of the world up to a dignified standard of existence,and it won't happen overnight either.How many people do you know in Ireland who would be willing to forego luxuries in their lives,in order to help total strangers.Not a lot,if any,I should think.Capitalism is the easy option.You see quick results.You can also end up on the scrap heap just as quick.Marxism is more long term,but the results are less visible immediately.It is hard work.Which is why it is not popular.People are too greedy and lazy to accept the responsibilty of maintaining a planet.Which is a shame,because it is not beyond our capabilities.We CAN do so much more.It needs a revolutionary way of thinking,and I don't mean fighting in jungles.How to change peoples perception of theirselves and their world,I'm at a loss too.
I turned my back on politics many years ago due to apathy,But if you know something is wrong,you can't ignore it forever.It is the ethical problem that El Che is on about.Do you follow what you believe is the better path?Or turn your back on the Human misery that is the daily life of the poor or oppressed of this planet,and live a comfortable life.The choice,as they say,is yours.

(Edited by Son of Scargill at 8:40 am on May 18, 2002)

[Anarcho]

How is lowering the standard of living of the first world going to improve the standards of the third world? I don't get that.

Also, the problem with looking at things from an ethical view is that who determines what is ethical? Nothing is clean cut.

[pastradamus]

I dont agree with taking the property of the wealthy or confiscating assets from the wealthy either.I believe in greatly narrowing the Rich-poor gap,and over some years the class divisions are almost dissolved,cuz u cant come along tomorrow and say " sorry give us all ur money mr.gates"

[RedRevolutionary87]

ok i can explain how communism can work by simply aplying darwinism to it.

greed is simply a survival strategy in capitalism society, it is the way we can survive. so all animals fight to survive, so we are greedy, its a heartless system and with a heart you will fall out.

in communism, everyones needs will be met, they will be able to survive without greed, and therefor will have no need for it, thus will eliminate greed. since one works for the betterment of the society, not oneself, one has job motivation as they feel they are doing something special that effects all of society, and they will want to to theyre job to the best of their abilities. in return the worker will not be paid directly, but will be presented the benifits of their society, the worker is rewarded by the hard work of others, and he/she rewards others by his/her hard work

[Vladimir]

Why Red, thats what i ask why would anyone want communism, it has a bad image given to it by the USSR and fucked it up for everyone, but no one wants it.

What is the point in having the goodness of us 'commies' when we could do better things with politics like cleaning up this 'capitalist shit', all of us if we pulled together instead of following something that nobody wants or is ever going to be anywhere.

Eh??

[Nateddi]

Just don't go around saying you are a communist. The Cold War hypocrisy is dying down, Cuba is getting modest views on most centrist Cable News channels in the US.

If you are not communist simply because of what idiots think, while not knowing the basic dictionary definition of it, than it you who are ignorant.

[RGacky3]

stalinism messed up the USSR not communism. Also remember communism fixed ud Cuba, nigeragua, vietnam, mongolia, and other 3rd world countries that are doing better. I think that democratic socialism works better at improving already 1rst world countries like Norway and sweeden. Communism helps bring up 3rd world countries. Capitalism just plain sucks

[RedRevolutionary87]

ya you wouldnt believe how many people would want it if it werent called communism, ive talked abotu communist theory with many people and theyre all liek wow that sounds good, and what not, but i never mentioned the word communism, but when i brought up the word they started critising the communism and how it doesnt work, when only an hour ago they are complimenting it.

[pastradamus]

the communist thing was supposed to be put to work in strong cappilist countries like the US,not russia.I see ur point red rev,but we understand communism,and are criticising it not for its name but for its failure.

[bleed3r]

Quote: from pastradamus on 3:15 am on May 19, 2002
...,but we understand communism,and are criticising it not for its name but for its failure.

On the contrary, I don't believe communism has failed. I ask you, how can an idea fail if it is never truly put into effect? The USSR wasn't communism, it was a totalitarian system being sold off as "communism" when it obviously wasnt. Due to the effects it brought, societies around the world began to associate the name with a sense of tyranny, regardless of their ignorance toward any aspect of communist theory. (Superpower media puppets also play a role here. "And today the evil COMMUNISTS attacked our freedom again...") This seems most strong in america due to the general populous' "I don't care" attitude toward politics in general (And why shouldn't they be? After all, almost anyone they ask will tell them communism is evil, regardless of how little they know.), and is entirely too apparent in the US's cold war actions. Read about "containment", or better yet, Joe McCarthy. It doesn't take a strong sense of investigation to see what's right in front of you.

(Edited by bleed3r at 4:01 am on May 19, 2002)

[Borincano]

I think that a social and political system must be implemented in a nation whose culture and people best feel comfortable and compatable with it. For example, go to this thread: Socialism in Latin America (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=223)

[bleed3r]

Quote: from Borincano on 6:27 am on May 19, 2002
I think that a social and political system must be implemented in a nation whose culture and people best feel comfortable and compatable with it...[/URL]

I agree and disagree.

Communism can't work in this society, conditioning must be enacted before society is open minded enough to embrace their humanity and see past the "what's in it for me" bullshit everyone is taught at birth. So yes, of course any given political system can only work with a society that complements it. Our society consists of corruption, greed, and ignorance, and so we have capitalism. Perhaps if people were more open minded about that, communist ideals could flourish. I believe one day this will be the case, though I don't expect to see it in my lifetime. Others may disagree with me and say it will never happen, and that's where a lot of the "Can communism really work" conflict begins. It all gets down to how much faith you're willing to vest in society, and if you really believe people are capable of a greedless society.

What I don't agree with is the usage of the word "Nation"... If communism is to work, it must be worldwide, humans must embrace each other regardless of which land mass they live on... This requires a great deal of political agreement, which again gets down to whether society is ready to stop being so childish and become humane and open minded about everything. It will never work in a single country without severe isolationism, and I believe that goes against the theory of an established unity. This has played at least a partial role in the failure of every political leadership who's used the label "communism". It can only work if the entire world unites for the good of everyone. I believe Marx openly saw it that way too (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that).

[Vladimir]

Ya bleed3r, and Borincano, ye make good points about the USSR and there so called communism and the image given to it by the western media but most people here live in 'western rich' countries and we are ' spolied middle class brats' living in a capitalist soceity and benefiting from it, so why not change it for the better rather than believe in a system which nobody wants and well there wont be one anyway, not soon at least.

The world will have to crumble, with the US and then maybe a true communist system can be seen for the better of the people.

[bleed3r]

That seems like a perfectly reasonable solution for a temporary political system, but it's simply illogical to assume that changes so drastic as to substitute communist ideals will be any easier to achieve than communism itself. The United States has some pretty ideal ideas, but they're exploited to all hell and don't serve much of a purpose anymore... So what makes anything else in its' political policy any less vulnerable?

I think a modified system does have certain advantages, but I don't believe it can work anymore than communism itself can, and for the same reason -- our current society.

So then why "believe in a system which nobody wants and well there wont be one anyway, not soon at least"? Because we strive for ideals, just as a modified system would, however I'd rather strive for a lasting ideal than a quasi-ideal settlement that serves no purpose because of its exploitation.

Besides, even if it were possible... Do you honestly think the US would listen to a bunch of "spoiled middle class brats"? Food for thought ;)

[Kez]

Instead of looking to history and find a scapegoat to "failings of communism", why dont we realise that we ourselves are the failings.
We know we are being fooled by capitalism, yet we do nothing. The lack of will power to break our chains is the afailing, not what happened 10, 50, 80 years ago

comrade kamo

[Vladimir]

''Besides, even if it were possible... Do you honestly think the US would listen to a bunch of "spoiled middle class brats"? Food for thought''

Exactly this shows that communism will never work today because the US will never accept a communist anything, they will destroy it coz they are too damn powerful.

Capitalism isn't great but communism isnt the answer.

Campanach Reamonn

[RGacky3]

In the U$ there are more poor people that would benefit from communism than there are stupid upper class brats. people just need to be informed/

[bleed3r]

Instead of looking to history and find a scapegoat to "failings of communism", why dont we realise that we ourselves are the failings.
We know we are being fooled by capitalism, yet we do nothing. The lack of will power to break our chains is the afailing, not what happened 10, 50, 80 years ago

I wasn't looking for a scapegoat per say, rather a partial contributor. McCarthy and the Cold War have had a lot to do with the image people have of communism. They know nothing of the theory yet they heard the word and cringe. I do agree with you, however I don't believe the time is right for full scale revolution. We don't have the support we need, and that is why society must wake up, we must condition it. We are only failures because this isn't happening fast enough...


Exactly this shows that communism will never work today because the US will never accept a communist anything, they will destroy it coz they are too damn powerful.

Correct. But how does that apply to communism and not to any other changes you suggest we make to the current system???

(Edited by bleed3r at 1:16 am on May 20, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

What is the problem? We want the world and want to share and god help anyone who gets in our way because of corruption or some other stupidity.
We need the majority and once the people of the world have majority power nothing will stop us. The days of allowing corrupt leaders to stay in power are over. If we do not have the means of guarnteed recall in place;the people will never support us. The struggle is to win hearts and minds to the struggle for real communism, dispossessed of the old poison that ruined it in its infancy.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 5:08 am on May 20, 2002)

[Kez]

Bleeder i wasnt referring to you when i said we are to blame and the scapegoats, i was referring to my "comrade" now cappie leprichaun

comrade kamo

[bleed3r]

Ah, sorry bout that... Thought you were talking about my reference to McCarthy ;)

[Son of Scargill]

Hey!Kamo.Cut the racist"leprechaun"shit...Unless IG is REALLY,REALLY small.In which case I'll forgive yer ;)

[Kez]

Me and ICG know each other through YFRC, i think he's just disheartened by lack of progress, just wait till he sees an injustice, then anger will boil over again and his hammer and sickle shall bloom again

;)

comrade kamo

[Lefty]

i have a few questions, too. If i understand communism right, no one is really paid, or paid that much. But in exchange, people get what they need. However, this is not proportionate to how much or how hard they work. Therefore, wouldnt people realize this and stop working? I could be wrong, i was just curious.

[pastradamus]

Quote: from Son of Scargill on 8:24 am on May 21, 2002
Hey!Kamo.Cut the racist"leprechaun"shit...Unless IG is REALLY,REALLY small.In which case I'll forgive yer ;)

well comrade IG32 is like 3 feet high,but i think its wrong to call him a leprechaun cuz of the fact he dosent wear a funny little green hat :D