Macedonia

[GUERILLA MAN]

I'm not sure that all of you know where Macedonia is, but I will write a feew things for those who do.
Macedonia is a part from my fatherland - Bulgaria, which has been ripped from us a 90 years ago.
Today, after the fall of SFRY, Macedonia is an independent state. I would not like to discuss why Bulgarians in Macedonia don't want to unite with Bulgarians in Bulgaria. I'd like to point you to another theme. About a year ago, some Albanian rebels started fire on Macedonian citizens. After this conflict, a full-scale civil war started. And who do you think "saved" Macedonia - of course NATO. Today there are more than 50 000 NATO soldiers in Northern Macedonia.
1. Lately was understood that the "rebels" were no rebels(they weren't from the indigeneous Albanians), but citizens of KOSOVO.
2.I wonder, were they really ALBANIAN citizens of Kosovo, or they were just American conspirators, wearing ALK uniforms? And when they couldn't beat the Macedonian forces, they came in their original uniforms as NATO soldiers?

Do you see some kind of conspiracy or something?:angry:

[anarhosocijalist]

I never heard for these things.. Did you red it in news papers. I personaly think it was a local Albanian population who rebeled against unfair Macedonian regime who denied Albanians their national rights, like Serbia in Kosovo.

[Dan Majerle]

I don't believe in Macedonia. They have taken the Greek language, culture and history and claimed it as their own, even the name is that of a Greek state. They are frauds who try to claim Alexander the Great and speak Greek yet proclaim independence and soveirengty.

[Xenoth]

A chaos has lived in Balkans (Makedonia, bulgaria, romania... etc.) since the fall of Soviet Union. There is a big Gap... And capitalist europe and america want to fill these gaps. I haven't got any knowledge about strategic resources of Macedonia; however, It has a strategical point in the center of Balkans... Europe wants to base on Balkans... Thus, they will control Jugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria and the others old socialist countries. They can attack more quickly to these countries...
Europe doesn't want any powerful countries from Balkans. Because a powerful country from Balkan will end their game on Balkans... Therefore, Macedonia is wonderful base for europeans...

[anarhosocijalist]

To Don Majerle: We are not speaking about ancient Macedonia. Present state of Macedonia has little link with it.
I dont bealive that in conspiracy thing at all. Europeans just used current situation esthablish their bases their.
And I am against formation of powerfull state in Balkans and everywhere else. Macedonia should be left alone to deal with its problems like status of large Albanian population. It is comletely wrong to except its unification with Yugoslavia, Bulgharia or Greece.

[Dan Majerle]

Yeah i know, and actually it has a huge link. There is a greek state called Macedonia, like you say Minneapollis, etc where Alexander the Great was from and all that history, and a nation state that has called itself also Macedonia with a capital Skopje. I don't like the nation Skopje because they have copied alot of the Greek Macedonian states culture and history and claimed it as their own.

[anarhosocijalist]

Well I dont know exact location where Alexander is from, but it is area north of present and ancient Greece.
You cant say today that Macedonia or Greece has right to great culture of ancient empire of Alexander the Great. That culture was created in great melting pot of: Greek, Egyptian, Persian and Indian cultures. They all and whole man kind have equal right to it.
So it isnt right to dislike someone because they claim it is their culture. They are partialy right in it.

[GUERILLA MAN]

I see here a lot of "unlightened" people about the Balkan problems.
First, Macedonians copy not Greek, but Bulgarian culture. They speak Bulgarian language, but say it's a different one - Macedonian. And they say because I speak Bulgarian therefore I should call myself Macedonian.
The most injured my Macedonia's existence country isn't Greece, isn't Albania, isn't Serbia, but my motherland - BULGARIA! Macedonians steal our history, they steal our national heroes and calim them as their own, they steal our language, they steal our culture!

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from GUERILLA MAN on 6:28 am on May 15, 2002
Do you see some kind of conspiracy or something?:angry:
Why would there be a conspiracy? Western countries would not look to Macedonia first for money, and while they are tangled up in Serbian conflicts and you wrote about Albanians and "rebels" from Kosovo, I can't think of a single problem in the Balkans that would be best solved by a conspiracy in Macedonia. You need to explain yourself a little more.

[anarhosocijalist]

If they say they speak Maceonian language then they speak Macedonian language, aldo it is similar to Bulgarian.If they wont unify with Bulgaria then it is not right to except from them to do that. We have similar situation here in Bosnian-Croatian relationship. We speak with almost the same languages, and Bosnians say that they speak with Bosnian language not Croatian. Before 50 large number of Bosnians said that they are Croatians(aldo they are Muslims) , but today they feel diferent. I dont except from them to come under Croatian rule.
It would be wise from you Bulgarians that you dont try to have imperialistic role in Maceonia.

[Bakunjin]

It is so interesting that Macedonian neighbours clame their right on Macedonia... First it was Greece and then Bulgaria... From 1912. and Balcan wars they all wan't Macedonia...
Macedonia is not Bulgaria... Language? Is Serbia Croatia? And we have similar languages, so?

[Xenoth]

Shortly, macedonia is a free country and not a part of Greece or Bulgaria. For my opinion, Macedonia has right to be a free country and we can not discuss about it.

[GUERILLA MAN]

Macedonia has its right to be independent, but has NOT the right to steal our history and our national heroes!
Bakunjin, has Milosh Obilic been claimed to be a Croatian?
Xenoth, has Mehmed II been claimed to be Albanian?

[Josip Broz Tito]

Ok, a lot of issues were raised during the discussion, and I have to say with little or no historical background. First of all to discuss whether Macedonia was an independent state or not in the ancient time is useless, each side can find some evidence to support their own cause. What is certain is that Macedonia was a region in ancient Hellenic state and the Alexander the Great called himself Alexander the Macedonian. Was he referring to region in present north of Greece or to independent Macedonia, we cannot know. Independent state of Macedonia (under that name) appeared later, in 10th century. Well known ruler of Macedonia was king Samuelo. Later all Balkan fell under Ottoman rule, so there were no independent state from 1371 till late 19 century. Macedonia regained independence after First World War but immediately became part of Yugoslavia. Finally in 1991, independent state of Macedonia was created.
So, if the people in Macedonia feel that they are Macedonians, nobody should object that. We don't have the right to influence their wishes and decisions.
Second, about the language. Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian AND Macedonian are languages of South Slavs. They are very similar. For example, Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are so similar that it can be discussed whether it is a same or different language. But people who speak these languages decided to call them different. I don't have problems with that. At least, I can put in my CV that I can speak at least three native languages: Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian.
I can understand Macedonian very well and I understand Bulgarian too. Those are to very similar but still different languages.
About history. I am student of history and I think I can judge about it, at least in the Balkans. No one can steel or copy history. Things happened, but interpretations are different.

[Bakunjin]

As Josip Broz Tito said slavic Macedonia was created in 10th century and was lead by Samuelo. It wasn't reap from Bulgaria 90 years ago...
Macedonia has right to be independent and has right to choose their culture..
You know what your post remind me of GUERRILA MAN? It reminds me of Memorandum of Serbian Academy of Science and Art and some writings in 19th century, what Milosheci used to claime right on Croatia ("All Croatians are in fact Serbs")

[Bakunjin]

Miloshevic, not Milosheci :) (LAPSUS)

[GUERILLA MAN]

Look, all of you, there has never been a Macedonian state after 1st ctry. AD. In the 10th century,the BULGARIAN czar Samuil(note spelling) MOVED the BULGARIAN capital into Ohrid. He didn't create anything!And, hell, let's ask a few Macedonians what ethnicity the have and then discuss all those things.

[Josip Broz Tito]

We can discuss for hours whose king was Samuelo and we can discuss history for hours also. I don't think it is important at the moment. What is important is that MACEDONIANS AT PRESENT DAY MACEDONIA decided to have an independent state with the name of MACEDONIA, to have a language with the name of MACEDONIAN and to have their own history and culture. I don't see how these decisions can endanger Bulgaria?

[anarhosocijalist]

GUERILLA you seem like a nationalist. Say openly if you think so: " I am for Bulgarian anection of Macedonia."
I dont know how it will help you or anybody else in Bulgaria, unless you want to make Macedonia a province and exploit it. Cultural questions doesnt have anything to do with it.

LONG LIVE INDIPENDENT MACEDONIA!!!!!