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refuse_resist
26th August 2004, 02:53
THEY’RE BACK

The growing outrage at the German government's planned welfare and labor “reforms” manifested itself even more violently yesterday when Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, the main target of the protests, faced his detractors in two appearances in the eastern heartland of the recent unrest. Schröder looked exasperated as he was the target of a "shock and awe" egg-throwing campaign by protesters at an open air event in the East German city of Wittenberg and then was harangued with furious whistles and cries of "liar" as he made a speech in Leipzig. Only a day before, the latest in a month long campaign of "Monday Demonstrations," as many as 70,000 people once again took to the streets to show exactly what they thought of the government's plans. The citizens of the east, the region that stands to be affected most by the reforms to cut unemployment benefit among other things, made up most of those who marched. "The reforms are hurting the poor while the rich continue to pocket huge profits," one Berlin protester

During the chancellor's official speech to mark the prelude of the Social Democrat's state election campaign in Saxony, Schröder was drowned out by whistles, songs and shouts of defamatory abuse as he defended the job market reforms. The chancellor reacted angrily to cries of "betrayer of the working class," responding by labeling those attempting to shout him down as undemocratic and accusing them of wanting the "destruction of the political culture."

It had been a long and stressful day for the chancellor. While visiting a newly renovated train station in Wittenberg, Schröder narrowly avoided what initial reports described as "a hail of eggs" thrown by protestors livid over the planned labor-market reforms.

Tens of thousands of protesters, mostly in eastern Germany, have taken to the streets in recent weeks in a bid to force Schroeder to modify a law that lowers benefits for the long-term unemployed and compels them to take low-paid jobs. The reform is called Hartz IV, named after Volkswagen personnel director Peter Hartz who led a government-appointed commission on job-market reforms in 2002. Anger over the government’s welfare cuts is especially strong in eastern Germany, because the majority of the 3 million people who are affected by them live there. The new measures include stiff means-testing and deep cuts in monthly benefit payments for the long-term unemployed. “The people are fed up,“ said pastor Christian Führer, a man who helped organize the peaceful East German protests that led to the downfall of the communist regime in 1989. The premier of the eastern state of Brandenburg also expressed his worries this week, saying that the disgruntlement extends far beyond concerns about the latest national reform. Matthias Platzeck, a Social Democrat, said that eastern Germans thought they were second-class citizens and that the latest reform had simply unleashed the dammed-up frustration caused by this feeling. “I think it is an extremely serious situation,“ he said.

And now it seems that more than 75 percent of eastern Germans polled in a survey released Monday believe communism to be a good idea in theory. Over half of the people in formerly communist eastern Germany are disillusioned with democracy, said the survey by Datenreport 2004. Some 25 percent of respondents agree with the statement: "There are other, better forms of government than democracy." A whopping 76 percent eastern Germans said they believed communism was a good idea that was only poorly carried out by the regime in the former German Democratic Republic. The survey showed a majority of western Germans (51 percent) also agree with that sentiment. Eighty percent of western Germans said they believe in democracy.

Another poll, conducted for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, also showed that the party that succeeded East Germany's communist party had emerged as the second strongest political force in the region. The chief source of the Party of Democratic Socialism’s (PDS) growing support is the protest against the latest reform. The reformed Communists' charismatic Gregor Gysi, says his party was just putting a finger on the sore spots of Schröder’s reform policy. "The economic situation in Eastern Germany," he said, "doesn’t seem to matter anymore -- neither to the government nor to parliament. In addition, the cuts always hit the weakest in society while the well-to-do are left untouched."

Rightwing-extremist parties are also profiting from the mass protests. In Saxony the National Democratic Party could enter the regional parliament in September. The party could increase its votes from one and half to over 5 percent compared the last election, polls have shown. In Brandenburg the German People’s Union is expected to hold its seats in parliament. Both parties have waged anti-reform campaigns as seeking to stoke resentment towards foreigners. Sources: Deutche Welle, World Press Review, Expatica, Xinhua, Bloomberg

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http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?...4/08/25/7064701 (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=04/08/25/7064701)

Here's another article about it. http://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...&story_id=10955 (http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=10955)

Comrade Latino
26th August 2004, 04:19
Somehow you just knew it was bount to happen.

Lacrimi de Chiciură
28th August 2004, 23:47
Good news to hear. But wasn't east germany a pretty crappy place to live? I'm glad that the people of Germany still have faith in communism.

GoaRedStar
29th August 2004, 01:03
The funny thing about this is that they never had communism.




And they seem to believe that democracy is the opposite of communism.

socialistfuture
29th August 2004, 04:22
i think because the people of east europe (well lots of them) didnt choose communism it wasnt their communism it was a solviet occupation and control.

while there was communist parties there and people that welcomed it and those who were glad the nazis were gone - they wanted to control their lifves and futures - authoritrian communism wasnt necasarrily radical it could be quite conservative.

now many from the east are seeing capitalism isnt what it promised to be and they want out. they dont necasarily want the old system back but they see the anti-capitalist (socialist/anarchist - anti imperialist etc) movement as something that offers hope, change and a better life.

also people maybe not have been around when it happened so they look back with nostalgia for something they didnt experience but is myth.

they dont want a new stalin and they sure as hell dont want a bush/blair clone.

cormacobear
29th August 2004, 05:09
Does anyone know more about the german political arena?
What are their left wing parties like, and are any of them really a viable outlet for this political swing?

gaf
29th August 2004, 12:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 05:09 AM
Does anyone know more about the german political arena?
What are their left wing parties like, and are any of them really a viable outlet for this political swing?
i know east berlin have friends there.between two devils you choose the best :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
because europa as it is .sucks!
if you don' t understand go there

Dr. Rosenpenis
29th August 2004, 13:44
This is all really good to know.

The people there seem very socially conscious.
In the US, the government would never be nearly as progressive as the current German government is, but that's because the people are so fooled by it all that they don't even want it. The US government conforms pretty closely to what Americans are taught that they want. When the people actually want more, like in East Germany today, and that "more" involves disregarding the needs of the capitalists, then the government is reluctant in acting.

This place seems pretty ripe for some working-class rebellion.

commiecrusader
29th August 2004, 22:40
i thought in the last german election everyone was worried that neo-nazis would do really well? i could be wrong though, maybe it was france i don't know

socialistfuture
30th August 2004, 00:13
that was france with le pen.
in germany the government has had a conference with other leaders (rulers) from the EU to condemn anti semitism.
the greens in germany have betrayed themselves dunno much else - i think germanys decision not to enter iraq was economic not political.
well german commies inform us foreigners.

dotcommie
30th August 2004, 13:52
that is good news, any support for communism in this day is good news,

Hate Is Art
1st September 2004, 14:08
The German Economy has gone straight down the metaphorical toilet since the creation of the Euro which obviously had bearign on their decision on the Iraq war.

For politics Neo-Nazi's do have a strong foothold there, but I think it isn't too much of a threat, all show really, they have their little parades and stuff but I don't think anyone really believes it.

Lot's of German's look on the former GDR with nostalgia, as a kind of good 'ol days, which is rubbish because there were no good 'ol days, but still it's encouragin that people are losing faith in the capitilist system, and even if there isn't some kind of popular uprising i'm sure we will see some change.

IPkurd
1st September 2004, 14:17
My uncle who lives in Germany, had his welfare cut by half, and now is forced to work for 1 euro an hour, this is fucking getting me angry

Comrade Latino
2nd September 2004, 01:01
My uncle who lives in Germany, had his welfare cut by half, and now is forced to work for 1 euro an hour, this is fucking getting me angry
That is so fucked up. Still, it's more than the people of my country make (about 5 cents an hour)

zhongjiezhe
2nd September 2004, 01:07
what is old east germany thinking?

good news,i had knowed.
but, what are next step?

i am china shanghai marxist.

how many is EU people thinking?
what are EU youngman doing?

what will we do by intelnet?
how will we teach another people?
how many times do we keep best news?

it is not easy.
we will working a lot of things.

when is best times?

we must keep our passion.it is not easy.dear frienders.

Urban Rubble
2nd September 2004, 01:26
Have I told you how much I love you yet today Huaqio ?

Welcome to Seattle !!! Welcome to Shanghai !!!!

Hate Is Art
2nd September 2004, 11:14
"sometime i vote with my hands, sometimes i vote with my feet"

YKTMX
2nd September 2004, 17:12
<_< You know things are bad when the people yearn for the Stasi.

redstarshining
2nd September 2004, 20:03
I don&#39;t think anybody in east or west Germany "yearns for the Stasi". Most people I met who have actually lived in east Germany ( and who are old enough to have experienced how it really was to live there ) were either very right-wing and anti-socialist/communist (few though, guess their economic background), or they held the same opinion that was expressed by the majority of people in the survey (socialism=good in theory, GDR had its flaws; 5th paragraph).

I wouldn&#39;t agree that most people are "disillusioned by democracy" or that they even see democracy as diametrically opposed to communism(/socialism). However, they are fed up with burgeois democracy as they can now see that "our" system is not remotely that "land of opportunity" that was promised to them all along. Most people seem to be rather critical of the DDR but manage to also see its good sides, especially the de facto non-existence of unemployment. Mind you, there are regions in east Germany which today have unemployment rates that you would typically expect in "third-world" countries (>70%). Considering this, it would be even understandable if some people wished the GDR as it has been would return.

Nowadays everyone in the establishment is shouting for a reduction of the cost of labour by abolishing workers rights and by deconstructing the social security systems to make the country "more competitive". But will it prevent a company from outsourcing its production to, lets say, Indonesia, if you manage to reduce the cost of an unskilled worker here, in a first world country, by a few percent? Will it reduce the deficit if the government saves a few million euros on welfare, while still spending billions on subventions? The people are realizing that they are being lied to, that this "temporary crisis" is anything but "temporary", they realize what the outcome of these "necessary reforms" will be, and many see their existence threatened.

Se7en
3rd September 2004, 02:06
While I understand and completely agree with the uproar over the actions of the German government, I don&#39;t see the benefit of an oversized bureaucracy handing out welfare to people left and right. I think those of us who are serious about an ultra-liberal movement need to consider the fact that a lot of "bleeding heart" labels aren&#39;t entirely erroneous. If I have misunderstood the sentiment here, perhaps someone will correct me.

Kez
3rd September 2004, 08:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 05:12 PM
<_< You know things are bad when the people yearn for the Stasi.
thats due to the fact neither you nor the rest of the SWP have an unnderstanding of the idea of a degenerated workers state. state capitalism my arse.

kami888
11th September 2004, 12:42
Lot&#39;s of German&#39;s look on the former GDR with nostalgia, as a kind of good &#39;ol days, which is rubbish because there were no good &#39;ol days

One thing I want to know from you is have you actually lived in GDR (DDR) to know if there were good old days or there were not? Most of you people seem to believe everything that you textbook says about Eastern Europe. Which is verrry bad. I agree that GDR was not as rich as FRG, but is wealth the only thing counrty position should be measured by? The strange thing is, that we seem to measure the progress in communist countries according to capitalist rules.

If you want to know more about "the good old days" of GDR, i recommend you watch movie called "Good Bey Lenin&#33;". I personally have a copy of this movie on my computer, but it&#39;s in German...

YKTMX
11th September 2004, 12:49
thats due to the fact neither you nor the rest of the SWP have an unnderstanding of the idea of a degenerated workers state.

Anybody who thinks that East Germany was any kind of Workers&#39; State is either being deliberately obtuse or a fucking idiot.


state capitalism my arse.

That&#39;s the best argument you&#39;ve ever offered.

Red Heretic
13th September 2004, 01:35
a workers&#39; state has never existed anywhere... not just eastern europe.

Only in Spain, Ukraine, and in the pre-Bolshevik Soviet Union has the working class ever been in control... and those places were not called a "workers&#39; state."

Kez
13th September 2004, 11:15
when were workers in power before bolsheviks? strange view.

And if GDR was state capitalism, then why do workers want GDR back, when according to the cliffite theory, State Capitalsim is same as normal Capitalism?

YKTMX
13th September 2004, 12:11
And if GDR was state capitalism, then why do workers want GDR back

The poll just showed that "than 75 percent of eastern Germans polled in a survey released Monday believe communism to be a good idea in theory". This doesn&#39;t neccesarily mean they want state captalism back, many workers in most countries would say this but they would say that "it can&#39;t work" or even "it didn&#39;t work".

Essential Insignificance
13th September 2004, 12:30
The poll just showed that "than 75 percent of eastern Germans polled in a survey released Monday believe communism to be a good idea in theory". This doesn&#39;t neccesarily mean they want state captalism back, many workers in most countries would say this but they would say that "it can&#39;t work" or even "it didn&#39;t work".

That&#39;s a good point.

It&#39;s almost become a cliche now -- "communism sounds good in theory; but practically, it&#39;s just not feasible."

Really, how can you "blame" them; they have no real idea of what communism is. Thanks to obvious "parties" concerned.

888Kami
14th September 2004, 02:46
Ukraine, and in the pre-Bolshevik Soviet Union has the working class ever been in control... and those places were not called a "workers&#39; state."
So you believe that provisional government was the "worker&#39;s state"? Interesting... I&#39;m sure there are a lot of people in Eastern Europe who would disagree with you.


Really, how can you "blame" them; they have no real idea of what communism is.
Ah, so only you know what true communism is, only you know what the true capitalism is, and whoever might disagree with you is an idiot. Let&#39;s even say that GDR was not communist (though in my point of view it was), the system was waaay different from capitalism that came from FGR, and that&#39;s why germans want it back.
Well, I assume that you did not live in GDR before it collapsed, that means that you read about it in some history book. But where would you find a history book which would show anything good about eastern europe? I don&#39;t think there are any such books. But if you are not completely dumn, the absence of such books doesn&#39;t mean that there was nothing good about GDR. That&#39;s where your negative opinion on all of them comes from.

refuse_resist
16th September 2004, 20:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 12:35 AM
Ukraine, and in the pre-Bolshevik Soviet Union has the working class ever been in control... and those places were not called a "workers&#39; state."
?

:huh: :blink:

Idahoan
7th October 2009, 19:48
Portugal seems to be doing well, last time I lived there, under a communist/socialist party. I hope it stays that way, who knows, maybe Portugal will be the first true Communist nation on Earth.

Philosophical Materialist
8th October 2009, 06:17
I think unearthing this thread from five years ago is a bit unnecessary.

Anaximander
8th October 2009, 06:32
Zombie thread! Halloween celebration!