ZIONISM IS NOT EVIL

[Blasphemy]

let's distinguish between two kinds of zionism:

1. Racist Zionism - this kind of zionism, advocated by a small percentage of the israeli population (24% according to the latest survey), says that the land of israeli belongs to the jews and to them only. thus there is no room for palestinians there. racist zionists advocate the idea of "Transffer" - the palestinians will be deported from israel to neighbooring arab countries.

2. Tolerant Zionism - this kind of zionism, advocated by a large majority in the israeli public, says that the jewish people deserve a homeland where they will be protected. the land of israel was chosen to be the homeland. but the tolerant zionists also recognize the palestinians' right for a homeland on the same land. that's why these zionists advocate partition - a part of the land will be the jews' state, and the rest will be the palestinians' state. the tolerant zionists' slogan is "one land - two states". i think that is very very fair.

now, lets correct some very disturbing factual error. after the war of independance, the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) occupied a large portion of the land, including some arab villages. the arabs were not driven off their land. more correctly - most of them weren't. there are a few exceptions, but the large majority were not forced off the land. they voluntirally escaped because they didn't want to live under israeli occupation. if the syrians now occupy my town, i know i'll escape, so it makes sense.

[DaNatural]

fair enough blasphemy but understand that the reason for backlash against zionism is becuse the only kind presented is the colonialist kind. This form is the bread and butter of that jerk netanyahu. These hardliners are all you hear about. I agree all people have aright to a state however in the case of Israel I dont beleive they do.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Blasphemy, he who knows only his side of the controversy knows little of that.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from DaNatural on 9:07 am on May 14, 2002
fair enough blasphemy but understand that the reason for backlash against zionism is becuse the only kind presented is the colonialist kind. This form is the bread and butter of that jerk netanyahu. These hardliners are all you hear about. I agree all people have aright to a state however in the case of Israel I dont beleive they do.


netanyahu is very weak amongst the public today. after the likud center assemblied two days ago, his popularity only diminished. only 34% of the israeli right supports netanyahu. it used to be 50% and up.

although the likud center does not support a palestinian state, most of the public does. therefore, most of the public does not support colonialist zionism, but rather tolerant zionism.

most of the public does not consider the territories to be part of the state of israel. in saturday's rally, israeli writer Amos Oz asked the settlers to "come home" to israel.

[Dhul Fiqar]

"they voluntirally escaped because they didn't want to live under israeli occupation"

Do you even realize how INCREDIBLY insane this sounds? Do you even know about the massacres that were purpotrated by zionist extremist groups and the constant threats made that they would expand them if everyone did not leave? Have you ANY idea what it's like to live under occupation??
Accordind to your sick logic the jews "escaped" from Germany, and were not driven out of Europe.

And Zionism holds there should be a "pure jewish state", why is this ANY different from Hitler's "pure aryan state"?

--- G. Raven

(Edited by Dhul Fiqar at 1:37 am on May 15, 2002)

[Reuben]

I am not a zionist but to say zionism holds that there shouuld be a pure jewish state is untrue, althoug it is true for some wings off zionism. Zionism, as a broad beleif system was copied forom tother late 19th century nationalist movement.

The general idea behind zionism is that the jews (LIke the armenians banglasdeshis and countless other ethnic minorities) should have a state. I do not necessarily agree with that but the idea of a jewish state is no less legitimate then the movement in other ethnic minorities for a state of their own.

[Fires of History]

What the people support is sort of a moot point so long as Sharon and his hitmen are running things. Sharon isn't exactly next up for a Nobel Peace Prize. If the people really did care, they would get rid of that militant wacko. I mean, they did vote him in, and he didn't exactly hide his intentions.

(Edited by Fires of History at 7:15 pm on May 14, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

And Zionism holds there should be a "pure jewish state", why is this ANY different from Hitler's "pure aryan state"?

it's a little different because we don't have concentration camps, and we don't start world wars.

[Xenoth]

Zionism is a national movement and i think all of national movements are evil. Zionism has not any difference from aim of Turkish nationalist movement which wants the land from China to Romania or national movement of greeks which wants West Turkey, Istanbul and North of Turkey...
Nationalism gives birth to being enemies. All national movements are bloody.

[GuerillaTactics]

sharmoot 3rs ...kis im ili jabek ya e'7ool mintaka ru7 il3ab muzaka 3la rosuk kis imik 3la im ili b3busuk 3la airy ya i'7sara 3la abook 3rs kis i'7t ili bazruk ya e'7u manyuka wa7ad zift imzefet kul sh3bek tiswash airy ya lo7

[Xenoth]

What do you mean guerillaTactics???

[Guest1]

That's phonetic arabic, with some clever substitutions for certain letters, like "3", which resembles in shape one of the arabic letters. Pretty much, he's swearing.

As to my response to blaphemy. Sure, it might not be a racist doctrine in and of its self, but even that Zionism which seeks to recognize a second state ends up robbing a people. Yasser Arafat may settle for a second state, but I and most of the Palestinian people would never accept official Apartheid. The racism of this offer may not be apparent, but why do you think Sharon supports it, contrary to his party's views? It is even more racist than that doctrine which seeks to completely expel the Palestinians. Its main feature is dillusion. The ability to force people into believing everything is alright. Just as American democracy is more fascist in nature than life under the most tyrannical system, because under a tyrannical one, all will fight, in america, they've been thrown a bone and never rise against that hidden dictatorship. You must also understand that there was a very disproportionate concentration of land in 1948. The majority of the land, including the most fertile lands, was given to Israel, which accounted for a minority (nevertheless a rich, European minority) of the population. The basis for the handover of Arab lands, and yes, despite your wish to continue the myths, the massacres and expulsions accounting for much of the land acquired, was extremely racial. The Zionist colonizers gained the support of most of the world because, yes, they were white and, yes, they were European. They were seen as the civilizers, and still are. THAT is why Zionism has a bad name. Until the Apartheid state gives Palestinians citizenship and equal rights, approves the right of return and ceases the racist campaigns and massacres it has commited and will most likely continue to commit in Jenin and all over the occupied territories, it deserves that name. This is not a time for questioning definitions, frankly, I don't really care whether one colonizer is slightly less upfront about his racism. Zionism, until it has been completely been divorced from the atrocities in Israel, will remain racism to me.... and my mother who saw the barrel of a gun when forced to leave, just as 750 000 others did.

[Blasphemy]

i am a big fan of human rights, and the palestinians should get full rights in israel, of course. but you have to be pragmatic.

allowing the right of return will ultimately lead to a palestinian majority in israel. the jews will once again be a minority, and the entire porpuse of the land of israel - to serve as a refuge to jews around the world - will be lost.

i do not advocate seperations between the jews and the palestinians because i think jews are better in any way and they deserve more. i think the land should be divided because that's the best practical solution that will benefit both sides.

[CheGuevara]

yeah, you're right, the right to return would ultimately lead to a Palestinian majority, and the Jews will once again be the minority. Boo fucking hoo. You can take your international gerrymandering and shove it up your Israeli asses. None of this shoving the Palestinians into an underdeveloped, crowded, crappy land while the Jews get the good land develped using exploited Palestinian labor.

[Derar]

Hmmm the palestinians will be the majority ?

What about the millions of israelis being offered jobs and residence just to come to israel , does anyone give a shit about that , NO ....... does it matter if the palestiniand become the minority and the israelis the majority ? NO ....

First u steal their land , and then u tell them u cant come back , becoz we dont want u to ???

That's sick , and shows how zionism is racism ....

[Blasphemy]

first of all, the land is fertile and it can be used for agriculture.

now, derar, before you lose your mind and start harming your environment: if a palestinian state arises in the territories, then it will serve as a home for the palestininans, and if they are not happy in israel, they can just go there.

[Blasphemy]

instead of crying all the time that zionists are evil and racist and israel is evil and fascists, let us be practical.

you can cry all you want, but the fact is that the israelis have no intention of packing up their bags and leaving israel. the palestinians have no such intention as well.

so instead of crying all the time, lets discuss how is it possible to change the current situation to one that will benefit both sides.

the palestinians have no intention of giving up on the temple mount, just like israel won't even talk about the right of return.

[Derar]

Israeli won't even talk about the right of return , thats why they r forever gonna be the targets of suicide bombings and ppl's hatred ....

Until one day they realise that they r in no position to object ppl's right to return to their homeland ...

[Blasphemy]

derar, letting these refugees return to their homes is, of course, the right thing to do. but you have to be practical! israel must preserve its jewish nature. i know it doesn't really coincide with the values of democracy and equality, but it must be done in order to protect the jews around the world. it must remain the refuge for jews.

for that reason, a palestinian state has to be erected in the territories, to protect the palestinians' rights.

i said this before but i'll repeat it now - a single socialist state is the best in theory but it is not practical for the reasons mentioned above.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I hereby declare my temporary retirement from discussing anything even remotely related to this particular conflict. We're not convincing each other, and reading falsities about Palestine's history is just making me angrier than I want to be.

I'll leave it at that.

--- G. Raven

[Xenoth]

Blasphemy, you use fachist speechs like "Love Israel or Leave Israel"...
Turkish fachists used this speech to Commies at 70s.
Love your mother land or leave it. You proved that you are a zionist and zionism is a fachist ideology. Congrulations. :(
You say that these land was your ancestor's land. ironic... My ancestors took this land and ruled average 300 years.(ottoman empire) OK, then... I want a part from Jerusalem.. :) Do you agree? :)
i know Palestine has rights and Israel has rights. because nobody want to leave it. But You can not find any solution with this national "zionist" thought...

Every people is equal. Me,you and the others...

[Blasphemy]

i hate it when it happens...people get me all wrong and end up thinking i'm a fucking fascist...

i am not saying that jews are better than palestinians! of course we are all equal, but you have to be PRAGMATIC! both people can live on this land, but we can't live inside each other. we have to segregate between the two nations in order to ensure the safety of both people.