Che and Osama.What's the difference?

[revolutionindia]

Today I happened to be reading a really really old collection
of Readers digest magazine's
One magazine dating to the 1970's it had a article called

"Cuba's schools of terror" in this article it was described how people were
being trained by fidel castro to conduct terrorist acts in brazil and other parts of the world and how che was used as a motivating figure

What I noticed is the tone and tenor of the whole article its exactly the same
as people use today to describe how Osama and his allies are conducting training camps

That brings me to an important unanswered question why is Osama a terrorist while che is a revolutionary hero?

Now about Osama
Most of you will say he is responsible for killing innocent people,thats why he's a terrorist.
To counter this
I put forth some points about che and osama

1.What roles did Osama and Che play?

Now a job usually has a planner and a doer

Osama is the thinker while the hijackers were the executers.
Osama is the planner while the hijackers were the doer's
The fruits of one's action are only accruably to the doer and not the thinker
The hijackers are solely responsible for their deeds and not Osama

If one holds osama wholly responsible for just planning 9/11 then a lot of people in this world must be held responsible for a lot of things that were planned by them but executed by others,from scientists,corporations to presidents

But che on the other hand not only planned but also killed.
Che fought openly in the war
Osama only took up arms only during the soviet invasion
that too against america's arch rivals
Che has directly shed blood and killed people.


2.Now who did they all kill?

Osama's plans killed people from the pentagon ,a military target.No arguments

What is debatable is whether the people killed on board the plane and WTC are innocent.

The WTC was a symbol of american capitalism and american economic might the
very cause of suffering in Middle east.Hence Osama thought it apt to target it
If I was a middle eastern muslim I would think the same

Some say he did not follow some unwritten rules of warfare
I personally think
There are no unwritten rules in warfare ,to repeat a old oft repeated statement
All is fair in love and war
The life of innocents are always shed in war,america does it,communists,capitalists and just about everyone else does it so why does Osama's act stand out?

Suppose I am wrong and the american people are really innocent then so were the
cuban people
Studies of the cuban revolution indicate that 20,000
people were killed in the cuban revolution

Assuming that equal numbers of batista's and fidel's&che's men were killed that
puts 10,000 on each side
For what ?
Is it so that 50 years later cuban women and children can throw themselves at the feet of american tourists to satisfy their inexhaustible sex mania?

Suppose che killed some of them why did he do it is it because they believed in capitalism?
What about the subsquent executions and torture of people who did
not conform to his narrow beliefs about economic policy
is that reason enough to execute somebody?

All I can say is
Osama and Che are two sides of the same coin.
A currency that has come into circulation because of the greed and
indiferrence of few corporations and men

Che was drunk with communism and osama is drunk with religious fanaticism
But to say that one is a revolutionary hero while the other is a terrorist is but folly

Either they both are terrorists or they both are revolutionary heroes fighting the never ending battle against imperialism,greed and injustice.

[RedAnarchist]

Well, firstly, Osama is a far-right extremist with ultra-reactionary fundamentalist Islamic views.

Second, Che was all for justice and equality. Osama's beliefs are vry backwards, misogynistic and xenophobic.

Whilst you are right - they are two sides of one coin - you are also wrong. Osama wishes to replace Capitalism with an even more oppressive idealogy, whilst Che wished to replace it with an idealogy of freedom.

[revolutionindia]

One man's idea of freedom is another man's idea of slavery

[YKTMX]

One man's idea of freedom is another man's idea of slavery

Yes, this is a disagreement between the slave owner and the slave.


The most obvious distinction (and one of many) between Che and Osama is that Che didn't just arbitrarily annihilate ordinary citizens.

When it comes to a political distinction it is this. "Our" and Che's belief was not that violence was an end in itself and the goal was to merely to terrorise a population but that when violence is used (as it must be) it has to be both an expression of popular will and measured.

Now, anyone with any sense cannot believe that the destruction of three thousand civilians is an appropriate or an effective way to fight American capitalism.

[revolutionindia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 09:34 PM
Now, anyone with any sense cannot believe that the destruction of three thousand civilians is an appropriate or an effective way to fight American capitalism.

Its a start I would say
Beheading one american soldier at a time will just take too long

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 04:10 PM
Its a start I would say
Beheading one american soldier at a time will just take too long
That's not an effective tool either considering that America has a plentiful of poor people to replace them.

[revolutionindia]

Ha,ha even osama knows that
that's why his hands are itching to get a nuke

I

[YKTMX]

Good for him, self-improvement is a virtue.

[fernando]

Maybe we could also compare various US presidents with Osame Bin Laden if we are talking about training camps for terrorists.

Bush is drunk with lust for war and to bring his message in an almost similar way as the Spanish did a couple of hunderd years ago with Christianity...

Blinded by his ideology, blinded by greed he trains terrorists, spreads his propaganda across the world, treatenes nations into coorportating with him and his consorts, always backed with enough nuclear weapons to blow up the world...

Hey...Bush and Bin Laden...same coin! :lol:

[revolutionindia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 10:12 PM

Hey...Bush and Bin Laden...same coin! :lol:
I would say counterfeit coin :D

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 03:36 PM
What I noticed is the tone and tenor of the whole article its exactly the same
as people use today to describe how Osama and his allies are conducting training camps

That brings me to an important unanswered question why is Osama a terrorist while che is a revolutionary hero?

Now about Osama
Most of you will say he is responsible for killing innocent people,thats why he's a terrorist.
To counter this
I put forth some points about che and osama

1.What roles did Osama and Che play?

Now a job usually has a planner and a doer

Osama is the thinker while the hijackers were the executers.
Osama is the planner while the hijackers were the doer's
The fruits of one's action are only accruably to the doer and not the thinker
The hijackers are solely responsible for their deeds and not Osama


If one holds osama wholly responsible for just planning 9/11 then a lot of people in this world must be held responsible for a lot of things that were planned by them but executed by others,from scientists,corporations to presidents

But che on the other hand not only planned but also killed.
Che fought openly in the war
Osama only took up arms only during the soviet invasion
that too against america's arch rivals
Che has directly shed blood and killed people.


2.Now who did they all kill?

Osama's plans killed people from the pentagon ,a military target.No arguments

What is debatable is whether the people killed on board the plane and WTC are innocent.

The WTC was a symbol of american capitalism and american economic might the
very cause of suffering in Middle east.Hence Osama thought it apt to target it
If I was a middle eastern muslim I would think the same

Some say he did not follow some unwritten rules of warfare
I personally think
There are no unwritten rules in warfare ,to repeat a old oft repeated statement
All is fair in love and war
The life of innocents are always shed in war,america does it,communists,capitalists and just about everyone else does it so why does Osama's act stand out?

Suppose I am wrong and the american people are really innocent then so were the
cuban people
Studies of the cuban revolution indicate that 20,000
people were killed in the cuban revolution

Assuming that equal numbers of batista's and fidel's&che's men were killed that
puts 10,000 on each side
For what ?

Is it so that 50 years later cuban women and children can throw themselves at the feet of american tourists to satisfy their inexhaustible sex mania?

Suppose che killed some of them why did he do it is it because they believed in capitalism?
What about the subsquent executions and torture of people who did
not conform to his narrow beliefs about economic policy
is that reason enough to execute somebody?

All I can say is
Osama and Che are two sides of the same coin.
A currency that has come into circulation because of the greed and
indiferrence of few corporations and men

Che was drunk with communism and osama is drunk with religious fanaticism
But to say that one is a revolutionary hero while the other is a terrorist is but folly

Either they both are terrorists or they both are revolutionary heroes fighting the never ending battle against imperialism,greed and injustice.
This is like saying that Charles Manson was not as guilty for the brutal murders of a number of people as his followers that, although he didn't commit himself, he ordered done......he's still sitting in jail for life for them. The planner is just as guilty as the doer and therefore Osama is just as guilty as the hijackers he brainwashed to do his dirty work.

People need to be responsible for their own actions. 9/11 has nothing to do with scientists, corporations or presidents.....it was an act of terrorism against against innocent people that had done nothing to those so called hard done by extremist Islamics in the Middle East.

Are you trying to say that those on board the planes and in the WTC weren't innocent people??? So what you're trying to say is that the Middle Eastern extremists are innocents and that the people that happened to be on board the planes and in the WTC are guilty??? What suffering are you talking about in the Middle East?? And how is the WTC a symbol of american capitalism and american economic might the very cause of suffering in the Middle East??

So if everyone else does it then Osama can do it to??? Sounds pretty childish to me......more like it belongs on a playground then in the government. The U.S didn't just decide to go in and bomb someone just for the sake of bombing someone.......they went in because they were bombed first and retaliated. I'm not saying everything the U.S. does is right but what I'm saying is the excuses you're making for Osama are pretty lame.

The americans killed on 9/11 were innocent just as many cubans killed during the revolution were innocent. But not all cubans were innocent.......

The revolution occured to rid Cuba of the dictator they had at the time and to replace him with a different one.......why else do these things happen??
45 years after the revolution and americans aren't allowed to travel there legally without special permission......so the cuban women and young girls throw themselves at the feet of foreigners. These women and young girls are often referred to as jineteras.......and some of the cuban mothers sell their daughters to these foreign men for sex......seen it too many times.

Quit blaming greed and the indifference of a few corporations and men......very lame to blame capitalism for what people outside of North America think.

[revolutionindia]

Its really late here I gotta go I will reply tommorow
Please do look again.

[DaCuBaN]

This is like saying that Charles Manson was not as guilty for the brutal murders of a number of people as his followers that, although he didn't commit himself, he ordered done......

:D Thought crime anyone? :lol:

In all seriousness, and I'm going to throw a cliche at you here: If I 'ordered' you to jump off a bridge to your death, would you do it?

You should not be able to be punished for words as far as I am concerned.

[fernando]

Well...if you indoctrinate the people to obey you, or if you put them to jail if they dont obey you...you are responsible if you command them to do things

But ok back to topic, you read this article that says Castro had terrorist schools...I mean if these "terrorists" were pro US, the article would have called them freedom fighters probably, the whole article might be shit, you should at least post the whole article here or give us a link to it

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 06:24 PM

:D Thought crime anyone? :lol:

In all seriousness, and I'm going to throw a cliche at you here: If I 'ordered' you to jump off a bridge to your death, would you do it?

You should not be able to be punished for words as far as I am concerned.
You can do better then that.......It&#39;s no different then the Nazis that were exterminating Jews......Their line.......I was only following orders. They were just as guilty as Hitler was for ordering the exterminations. Nuremburg trials found them guilty. <_<

[DaCuBaN]

They were just as guilty as Hitler was for ordering the exterminations. Nuremburg trials found them guilty

Y&#39;see this is my point: Was hitler really accountable for the actions of those who followed him? Given that he was spreading his distaste, distrust, hatred (or however you would care to call it) of the Jewish people at that time in history he assumes responsibility for the actions, does this mean he is totally accountable for them?

I submit he is/was not, and that it was right to convict those who purpotrated(sp?) the crimes themelves. To take a modern imperative, does it not worry you that by saying &#39;Someone should kill GW Bush&#39; on a message board such as this, you become a target for counter-terrorist investigation?

Back on topic however, I think the whole thing simply does come down to the idea of one man&#39;s terrorist being another&#39;s freedom fighter. It&#39;s about picking sides.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace.....
Well speaking on Che.....
Che never killed innocent men women and children....
Che let soldiers he captured go free.....
One story goes....when his men captured some
soldiers around the time Cowboy Kid was killed...
They wanted to kill Batistas soldier that they had caught....
but CHe said...."no we are not like them".....
so thats CHe.....a righteous brother....
Speaking on Osama.....
I wouldn&#39;t believe what the media says about him.....
He denied any involvement in 9/11 and if you study
the circumstances and facts of 9/11 you would know
that it was masterminded by people in the US government
and it could have ONLY been masterminded by people
in the US government.....
If you read the frontline Interview with Osama he says
he is against killing innocent men women and children....
He does admit to being involved in the military action
in Somalia where the USA got its ass kicked and other
military actions in Iraq......
I suspect that Osama is a good man who is only involved
in Military strikes(nothing wrong with that) and that the USA
has used him as a scapegoat...and if you study the history
of the USA it wouldn&#39;t seem to far fetched.....
the USA said the exact same things about CHe when he was
alive......

[robob8706]

The difference is that Che fought for freedom while Osama fights for religious cleansing. Killing oppressers and killing religious infidels are two different forms of genocide.

[DaCuBaN]

Che fought to rid the world of Capitalist ideals, Osama fights to rid the world if Christian ideals. In reality though, anyone with half an ounce of grey matter can draw comparisons. We need only look at the Bush=Hitler arguments to reason that out.

[Urban Rubble]

What is debatable is whether the people killed on board the plane and WTC are innocent.

That is the most ridiculous fucking thing I&#39;ve ever heard. Yes, they were innocent, that is not debateable at all.


The WTC was a symbol of american capitalism and american economic might the
very cause of suffering in Middle east.Hence Osama thought it apt to target it

You overlook the fact that it was filled with average working class people. There is your difference, Che Guevara would have reservations about killing a few thousand innocent people just to make a point.


If I was a middle eastern muslim I would think the same

Yes, because all Middle Eastern Musilms think the same.


There are no unwritten rules in warfare ,to repeat a old oft repeated statement
All is fair in love and war

O.K, all&#39;s fair in love and war you say ? Then I don&#39;t ever want to hear you complain about George Bush killing Arabs, I don&#39;t want to hear disagree with Hitler killing jews, it&#39;s all fair in love and war, right ?


Assuming that equal numbers of batista&#39;s and fidel&#39;s&che&#39;s men were killed that
puts 10,000 on each side
For what ?

Is it so that 50 years later cuban women and children can throw themselves at the feet of american tourists to satisfy their inexhaustible sex mania?

No. I&#39;d say having houses to live in, food to eat and doctors to see them is alot better than not having those things like before. I&#39;ll admit that Cuba isn&#39;t perfect, but to ignore the benefits of the revolution because there is prostitution in Cuba is idiotic.


Suppose che killed some of them why did he do it is it because they believed in capitalism?

No, because they shot at him and his soldiers. Che Guevara never went around killing people for believing in Capitalism.


Either they both are terrorists or they both are revolutionary heroes fighting the never ending battle against imperialism,greed and injustice.

That&#39;s just not true. They aren&#39;t the same man, they are completely different people with different beliefs and different ways of carrying them out. Osama Bin Laden is not fighting to end imperialism, greed and injustice, why would you even think that ? He is fighting because of religion, and because he hates the Western World. Greed ? Are you kidding me ? Have you any idea how rich the Bin Laden family is ?To act as if he is some sort of freedom fighter is idiotic. He wants freedom for Muslims, I don&#39;t think he really cares about anyone else. If I had to choose between free market Capitalism and an Islamic theocracy, I&#39;d choose Capitalism in a hearbeat. I like my girlfriend&#39;s clitoris right where it is thank you. I also like the fact that she can drive and show her face. Osama Bin Laden is every bit as big of a devil as George Bush, Tony Blair or any other Imperialist.

[Urban Rubble]

And a reply to Micah EL Layl.


He denied any involvement in 9/11

No he did not. For some reason alot of people seem to like to repeat that. The problem is, it&#39;s just not true.


and if you study
the circumstances and facts of 9/11 you would know
that it was masterminded by people in the US government
and it could have ONLY been masterminded by people
in the US government.....

See, I think that people have studied it far more than you, and have come to a different conclusion. I mean, if you&#39;re so sure I would think that you&#39;d want to break that story. Why don&#39;t you ? You seem so sure ?

The U.S government is guilty of incompetence in security and an overzealous reaction. Anyone that thinks it is even possible to get away with such a thing is an idiot. There are far too many variables to cover something like that up, it just couldn&#39;t happen. It&#39;s been proven over and over that it was Al Qaeda. Let me guess, you don&#39;t believe that we ever walked on the moon either ? :lol:


If you read the frontline Interview with Osama he says
he is against killing innocent men women and children....

And George Bush says he&#39;s interested in building democracy, what&#39;s your point ? What people say and what they do are totally different. I think bombing a building full of innocent men, women and children kind of make that quote irrelevant.


I suspect that Osama is a good man who is only involved
in Military strikes(nothing wrong with that) and that the USA
has used him as a scapegoat...

Oh, well some kid on the internet suspects, it, that&#39;s good enough for me.

You suspect it because you desperately want to believe it. You want to believe that this man attacking the U.S is a great freedom fighter. Well he&#39;s not. He&#39;s every bit as bad as the people he is attacking.

And by the way, you write an awful lot like revolutionindia. Could it be possible that you&#39;re the same person agreeing with yourself ?

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
Urban rubble you stupid as a piece of shit son....
and i say you are stupid because you nor i
know who the real OSama ben laden is....
the only thing you know about him is what
the media says about him.....
your just another blind sheep......
you gonna feel really stupid when you find
out that he was only Involved in Military
STrikes......and not any "terrorist" actions.....

[Urban Rubble]

And you&#39;re going to be suprised when you grow up and realized you were a dumb little kid who believed everything hack conspiract theorists told you.

And why don&#39;t you try replying to what I wrote....son ?

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
Motherfucker....he completely denied involvement
days after 9/11.....
Flight 77 flys for 45 minutes....
thats 45 minutes off course in west virginia
and northern virginia the most highly
protected airspace in the world?????&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;???????
they could have intercepted that airplane in
10 minutes.....
anyways....im not even gonna waste my time .....
you go on and believe what the US imperialist media
says but your punk ass is gonna learn soon enough.....

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
how am i gonna reply to someone who
just regurgitates what the US imperialist media
says.....i swear to God if this was the 1960&#39;s
you would be calling my man CHe a terrorist too.....
please.......get off uncle sams dick....

[Urban Rubble]

peace... (you can&#39;t be more that 14)

I don&#39;t believe everything that major media tells me, I analyze and study things until I come to a conclusion. Sometimes it just so happens that the major media was right. You know, the world isn&#39;t ALL a conpiracy, some things are just as they seem. You call me out for believing what the media says, well I&#39;d say that&#39;s worse than disbelieving something soley because the media says it (and some fat idiot on the internet links it with some sketchy "evidence").

And again, why is it that all you internet geek "conpiracy theorists" keep regurgitating that "Osama denied the attacks" ? WHERE ??? SHOW ME &#33;&#33;&#33;

It never happened. He has been on tape many times discussing how he was suprised and pleased because he didn&#39;t think a plane would make the building fall down.

[DaCuBaN]

It never happened. He has been on tape many times discussing how he was suprised and pleased because he didn&#39;t think a plane would make the building fall down.

*fishes around for his tin foil hat*

Indeed - but that&#39;s pretty much the point: Kerosene - used as jet fuel - does not burn hot enough to melt steel (we&#39;re talking a difference of nearly 800 celsuis&#33;). Had the impact of the plane done enough damage they would have fallen instantly, but they didn&#39;t and ergo something else must have happened to fell them both.

The question is, what ;)

Similarly, the design of the WTC&#39;s was such that each floor can take six times the load it is intended to.... With this in mind well over half of the central supports could have melted without any of the floors giving way. Whilst the vibrations from the first tower falling could well have been the catalyst for the second, I cannot fathom how the first fell...

But then I do love a good conspiracy...

[Individual]

Che and Osama.What&#39;s the difference?

Motives and principles. Big fucking difference if you ask me.

[Urban Rubble]

It&#39;s actually pretty simple, but let me ask you one thing first.

Do you honestly believe, that with all the architects and engineers in this world, not one person has been able to prove this ? The fact is, this isn&#39;t like most conspiracy theories, you can&#39;t rely on what most of these theories rely on, the fact that the government could be, or is hiding information. If we&#39;re talking about why the towers fell, all of the information is there to be studied by anyone who wants to. Everyone in the world heard about the 9-11 bombings, do you really think that every person who is qulaified to make the judgement you have already made has decided not to ?

The towers fell because the impact of the plane hitting made the top few floors fall. Once they were falling, the weight of them piling up was too much for the floors that weren&#39;t hit. It&#39;s actually pretty basic.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
YES DACUBAN&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; thats one of the hundreds and hundreds
of un-answered questions about 9/11......
you know.....the rogue elements in the US government
and the zionists(the ones who masterminded 9/11)
really poorly planned out 9/11....they problably
would have gotten away with it if they would have planned
better.....its almost as if the 10 percenter is toying
with us 5 percent......like how they did the spanish
train bombing 911 days after 911.....
the white power structure are some sick motherfuckers........
to those of us who know the truth the devils are
throwing obvious clues to us but oblivious to the
poor brainwashed sheep.....like urban rubble.....

[Urban Rubble]

YES DACUBAN&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; thats one of the hundreds and hundreds
of un-answered questions about 9/11......

No, I actually just answered it. As have thousands of engineers and architects. But yeah, you&#39;re right, they&#39;re probably all wrong. Your dumb 15 year old ass has outsmarted some of the most brilliant people on the planet.


the rogue elements in the US government
and the zionists(the ones who masterminded 9/11)
really poorly planned out 9/11

Oh, so now it&#39;s a Jewish conpiracy ? Racist.


they problably
would have gotten away with it if they would have planned
better

Umm, are you kidding ?

The entire world believes Osama Bin Laden did it, the U.S went to war because of it, not one credible person has ever said that the U.S government did it. So, if the U.S government DID do it, I&#39;d say they HAVE gotten away with it.

You&#39;re ridiculous.


the white power structure are some sick motherfuckers........
to those of us who know the truth the devils

Ah, so you hate Jews AND white people ?

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
thats weak.......
i cannot even bring myself to type words to that idiocy.....

[DaCuBaN]

I can&#39;t take the credit for this one: Another member of this site posted the link a while back, and I&#39;ve read and re-read it trying to fathom the &#39;holes&#39; in the argument.

I&#39;m yet to find them, and there is some compelling evidence that some form of &#39;conspiracy&#39; is involved.

Anyway

Link (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/mslp_i.htm)

It&#39;s a long article, but it&#39;s well worth the read. Extracts:


Using jet fuel to melt steel is an amazing discovery, really. It is also amazing that until now, no one had been able to get it to work, and that proves the terrorists were not stupid people. Ironworkers fool with acetylene torches, bottled oxygen, electric arcs from generators, electric furnaces, and other elaborate tricks, but what did these brilliant terrorists use? Jet fuel, costing maybe 80 cents a gallon on the open market.


But by 10:29 a.m., the fire in north tower had accomplished the feat that I find so amazing: It melted the steel supports in the building, causing a chain reaction within the structure that brought the building to the ground.

And with less fuel to feed the fire, the south tower collapsed only 47 minutes after the plane collision, again with complete destruction. This is only half the time it took to destroy the north tower.



I try to forget that heating steel is like pouring syrup onto a plate: you can&#39;t get it to stack up. The heat just flows out to the colder parts of the steel, cooling off the part you are trying to warm up. If you pour it on hard enough and fast enough, you can get the syrup to stack up a little bit. And with very high heat brought on very fast, you can heat up one part of a steel object, but the heat will quickly spread out and the hot part will cool off soon after you stop.

Am I to believe that the fire burned for 104 minutes in the north tower, gradually heating the 200,000 tons of steel supports like a blacksmith&#39;s forge, with the heat flowing throughout the skeleton of the tower? If the collapse was due to heated steel, the experts should be able to tell us how many thousands of tons of steel were heated to melting temperature in 104 minutes and how much fuel would be required to produce that much heat. Can a single Boeing 767 carry that much fuel?



Thankfully, I found this note on the BBC web page
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/ame...000/1540044.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1540000/1540044.stm) or http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/BBCNews): "Fire reaches 800 [degrees] C — hot enough to melt steel floor supports."

That is one of the things I warned you about: In the 20th Century, steel melted at 1535 degrees Celsius (2795 F) (see http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/fe.html), but in the 21st Century, it melts at 800 degrees C (1472 F).



I do not know the exact specifications for the WTC, but I know in many trades (and some I&#39;ve worked), a structural member must be physically capable of three times the maximum load that will ever be required of it (BreakingStrength = 3 x WorkingStrength).


According to Engineering and Technical Handbook by McNeese and Hoag, Prentice Hall, 3rd printing, September 1959: page 47 (Table) Safety Factors of Various Materials, the mandatory safety factor for structural steel is 600%. That is, a steel structure may be rated for a load of only one sixth the actual theoretical limit.

Given that none of those floors was holding a grand piano sale or an elephant convention that day, it is unlikely that any of them were loaded to the maximum. Thus, any of the floors should have been capable of supporting more than its own weight plus the two floors above it. I suspect the WTC was engineered for safer margins than the average railroad bridge, and the actual load on each floor was less than 1/6 the BreakingStrength. The platters were constructed of webs of steel trusses. Radial trusses ran from the perimeter of the floor to the central columns, and concentric rings of trusses connected the radial trusses, forming a pattern like a spider web (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1540000/imag...tructure300.gif (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1540000/images/_1540044_world_trade_structure300.gif) or http://public-action.com/911/jmcm/BBCNews/DOCS/1540044w.gif). Where the radial trusses connected with the central columns, I imagine the joints looked like the big bolted flanges where girders meet on a bridge — inches thick bolts tying the beams into the columns.

In order to weaken those joints, a fire would have to heat the bolts or the flanges to the point where the bolts fell apart or tore through the steel. But here is another thing that gives me problems — all the joints between the platter and the central columns would have to be heated at the same rate in order to collapse at the same time — and at the same rate as the joints with the outer columns on all sides — else one side of the platter would fall, damaging the floor below and making obvious distortions in the skin of the building, or throwing the top of the tower off balance and to one side.

But there were no irregularities in the fall of those buildings. They fell almost as perfectly as a deck of cards in the hands of a magician doing an aerial shuffle.


I&#39;ll stop quoting, lest it make you apathetic and decide not to read the whole thing. It&#39;s certainly interesting though... ;)

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
thanks Cuban......

[Guerrilla22]

Now a job usually has a planner and a doer

Osama is the thinker while the hijackers were the executers.
Osama is the planner while the hijackers were the doer&#39;s
The fruits of one&#39;s action are only accruably to the doer and not the thinker
The hijackers are solely responsible for their deeds and not Osama


Actually Bin Laden is not a thinker, he&#39;s a xenophobe and a religious zealot. Bin Laden doesn&#39;t make the plans for al-Qaeda&#39;s operations, others do, all Bin Laden does is finance them.


The WTC was a symbol of american capitalism and american economic might the
very cause of suffering in Middle east.Hence Osama thought it apt to target it
If I was a middle eastern muslim I would think the same

*sigh. Actually, Bin Laden and al-Qaeda have actually killed about as many Muslims in all of their attacks as they have Americans, and by the way did killing thousands of innocent people do anything to change US policy?

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
i guess they taught you that at good old COlorado University....
figures.....

[revolutionindia]

This is like saying that Charles Manson was not as guilty for the brutal murders of a number of people as his followers that, although he didn&#39;t commit himself, he ordered done......he&#39;s still sitting in jail for life for them. The planner is just as guilty as the doer and therefore Osama is just as guilty as the hijackers he brainwashed to do his dirty work.

So then according to you not only the american soldiers of Abu Gharib prison
but also Donald Rumsfeld and George Bush and everyone else involved with the war should be punished because they were the planners

And may I ask who is going to be held responsible for the 1000&#39;s of innocent iraqi&#39;s killed?

Are you trying to say that those on board the planes and in the WTC weren&#39;t innocent people??? So what you&#39;re trying to say is that the Middle Eastern extremists are innocents and that the people that happened to be on board the planes and in the WTC are guilty??? What suffering are you talking about in the Middle East?? And how is the WTC a symbol of american capitalism and american economic might the very cause of suffering in the Middle East??

What I am saying is nobody is innocent ,we all are responsible directly or indirectly
for our actions and what is happening in this world
Action leads to reaction without action there is no reaction

Our indifference and apathy towards issues that we think do not concern us
aggravate and cause disturbances the world over

Either we all are going down together or we all are going up together,the earlier they realise that the better its for the world

As of know it looks like we will all be going down

Each one of us everday is making a decision and supporting people directly and indirectly in various forms



So if everyone else does it then Osama can do it to??? Sounds pretty childish to me......more like it belongs on a playground then in the government. The U.S didn&#39;t just decide to go in and bomb someone just for the sake of bombing someone.......they went in because they were bombed first and retaliated. I&#39;m not saying everything the U.S. does is right but what I&#39;m saying is the excuses you&#39;re making for Osama are pretty lame.

The US did go and bomb somebody for the sake of bombing somebody
If you go through american history they have supported regimes and dictators far worse than saddam or the taliban
The taliban is also the creation of the US
The US is also the creator of islamic terrorism with its support to israeli terrorism

We all know that the mind that creates the problem can never solve it
That means America will never find a solution to terrorism

Quit blaming greed and the indifference of a few corporations and men......very lame to blame capitalism for what people outside of North America think.

You don&#39;t know what you are talking

[revolutionindia]

That is the most ridiculous fucking thing I&#39;ve ever heard. Yes, they were innocent, that is not debateable at all.

So you say americans are innocent
But being born an iraqi is a crime and for that iraqi&#39;s need to be bombed
into dust just because a dictator rules over them
How rational :rolleyes: reminds me of elijah craig&#39;s saying :lol:


O.K, all&#39;s fair in love and war you say ? Then I don&#39;t ever want to hear you complain about George Bush killing Arabs, I don&#39;t want to hear disagree with Hitler killing jews, it&#39;s all fair in love and war, right ?

What I am saying is the killing must stop but to say america is being attacked for no fault and all amerians are innocent is being prejudiced
I never claimed all muslim arabs are innocent

[revolutionindia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 08:33 AM
*sigh. Actually, Bin Laden and al-Qaeda have actually killed about as many Muslims in all of their attacks as they have Americans, and by the way did killing thousands of innocent people do anything to change US policy?
Yes the klling must stop but who will make a start?nobody will
I think its gonna be a fight to the finish
people on both sides are pretty dumb and numb to experience the bliss of
world peace

[gaf]

back to subject


it&#39;s stupid to compare osama with che ,the same could compare che to jesus and i already saw this one,or osama to allah .my point is.they are fighting against what represent u.s.a in the world but no need for comparaison.

[Y2A]

peace.......
i kinda agree wit what michal el layh say&#39;in.....
how we know who OSAMA bin LaDen is yo? why we
just gonna believe what imperialist media tells us????111
yeah, the crapitalists just controling your brains. COlorodo
university filled with propagandists man.
peace out.....

[gaf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 06:50 PM
peace.......
i kinda agree wit what michal el layh say&#39;in.....
how we know who OSAMA bin LaDen is yo? why we
just gonna believe what imperialist media tells us????111
yeah, the crapitalists just controling your brains. COlorodo
university filled with propagandists man.
peace out.....
i&#39;m sure you&#39;ll never know
point out.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 11:14 AM
This is like saying that Charles Manson was not as guilty for the brutal murders of a number of people as his followers that, although he didn&#39;t commit himself, he ordered done......he&#39;s still sitting in jail for life for them. The planner is just as guilty as the doer and therefore Osama is just as guilty as the hijackers he brainwashed to do his dirty work.

So then according to you not only the american soldiers of Abu Gharib prison
but also Donald Rumsfeld and George Bush and everyone else involved with the war should be punished because they were the planners

And may I ask who is going to be held responsible for the 1000&#39;s of innocent iraqi&#39;s killed?

Are you trying to say that those on board the planes and in the WTC weren&#39;t innocent people??? So what you&#39;re trying to say is that the Middle Eastern extremists are innocents and that the people that happened to be on board the planes and in the WTC are guilty??? What suffering are you talking about in the Middle East?? And how is the WTC a symbol of american capitalism and american economic might the very cause of suffering in the Middle East??

What I am saying is nobody is innocent ,we all are responsible directly or indirectly
for our actions and what is happening in this world
Action leads to reaction without action there is no reaction

Our indifference and apathy towards issues that we think do not concern us
aggravate and cause disturbances the world over

Either we all are going down together or we all are going up together,the earlier they realise that the better its for the world

As of know it looks like we will all be going down

Each one of us everday is making a decision and supporting people directly and indirectly in various forms



So if everyone else does it then Osama can do it to??? Sounds pretty childish to me......more like it belongs on a playground then in the government. The U.S didn&#39;t just decide to go in and bomb someone just for the sake of bombing someone.......they went in because they were bombed first and retaliated. I&#39;m not saying everything the U.S. does is right but what I&#39;m saying is the excuses you&#39;re making for Osama are pretty lame.

The US did go and bomb somebody for the sake of bombing somebody
If you go through american history they have supported regimes and dictators far worse than saddam or the taliban
The taliban is also the creation of the US
The US is also the creator of islamic terrorism with its support to israeli terrorism

We all know that the mind that creates the problem can never solve it
That means America will never find a solution to terrorism

Quit blaming greed and the indifference of a few corporations and men......very lame to blame capitalism for what people outside of North America think.

You don&#39;t know what you are talking
I&#39;m replying to what you said.....don&#39;t even try to put words in my mouth......remember I&#39;m not a female from India and you can&#39;t talk to me the way you do to them. I replied to what you said......you stated that Osama wasn&#39;t responsible for 9/11 because he didn&#39;t actually commit the act and that those on board the planes and in the WTC weren&#39;t innocent victims. I wonder what the families of these victims would think if they heard you say that??

So then who is responsible for the innocent foreigners killed in Iraq......you know the ones there on business??? I know that we must be responsible for our own actions but tell me......how are we directly/indirectly responsible for what goes on in this world?? I have nothing to do with what Osama does in his part of the world........nor do I have any use for his type either. Who said anything about being apathetic/indifferent to what goes on in the world.......so tell me how are we are directly/indirectly supporting people in various forms???

No they didn&#39;t.....and we aren&#39;t talking about american history, we&#39;re talking about 9/11.......don&#39;t worry, eventually they will find a solution. Unlike the Islamic extremists that have to kidnap and murder foreigners to get the countries to pull out the U.S. at least has the guts to fight back.

[DaCuBaN]

you stated that Osama wasn&#39;t responsible for 9/11 because he didn&#39;t actually commit the act

Agree with it or not, you cannot simply disregard this fact. OBL did not board those planes himself; the purpotrators died along with their innocent victims. Crying over spilled milk will never change this fact, and revenge will certainly do nothing. Review this again once the whole fiasco is truly over and done with.


those on board the planes and in the WTC weren&#39;t innocent victims. I wonder what the families of these victims would think if they heard you say that??

We know exactly what they think, the wars in the middle east since the conflict are more than enough evidence of this: The point is that OBL and chums believed that they are extracting vengence on the US for the thousands that have died at the hands of the US prior to this incident; For the betrayal from the CIA that once assisted them.


So then who is responsible for the innocent foreigners killed in Iraq

Whoever killed them&#33;


how are we directly/indirectly responsible for what goes on in this world?? I have nothing to do with what Osama does in his part of the world

Every action has it&#39;s consequences, and these people feel they were acting in vengence in the first place. Right or wrong, it&#39;s the way it is.


eventually they will find a solution. Unlike the Islamic extremists that have to kidnap and murder foreigners to get the countries to pull out the U.S. at least has the guts to fight back.

No, the US can bomb and kill thousands and call it &#39;collatoral damage&#39;. There is no difference whatsoever in the actions, we must simply as rational beings try to find justification for their actions.

I for one can justify neither the 9/11 attacks nor the invasion of Afghanistan and certainly not Iraq.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
word....
alot of yaw gonna feel real stupid in about 30 years...
your gonna say to yourself.....good god i was brainwashed....

[revolutionindia]

So then who is responsible for the innocent foreigners killed in Iraq
The iraqi&#39;s probably killed them
But the people who have been killed are people who went ther very well knowing
that fanatic muslims are looking to kill them
I would say they were foolish walking into a hungry lions cave and then complaining that the lion ate them


Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 06:49 AM
how are we directly/indirectly responsible for what goes on in this world?? I have nothing to do with what Osama does in his part of the world........nor do I have any use for his type either. Who said anything about being apathetic/indifferent to what goes on in the world.......so tell me how are we are directly/indirectly supporting people in various forms???


If you are canadian then I would like to offer my apologies as
I considered you american
Also canadians are not entirely innnocent but neither are they as guilty as americans

Now how ordinary americans support and influence world events

It&#39;s their consumption they are never happy with what they have and they
boast that they have high capita water consumption ,oil consumption this and that etcetc
and how its an indication of development

when people in other parts of the world are suffering without the same

India is trying to emulate america ,do you know what the consequences would be?
Imagine 1 billion people trying to emulate the wasteful living standards of America
I would say we would need 5 earths
Every time you fill your SUV its saudi oil that goes in
Did you know ExxonMobil made &#036; 22 billion in profits this year :blink:
Isn&#39;t that scary

Do you know in the near future corporations could take over countries
Maybe then we can have a United States of GE
or a Republic of ExxonMobil

We will even give them a seat in the UN security council :D
And we will give the United States of GE veto powers :lol:

These companies don&#39;t operate out of thin air
The driving forces of these companies are the humans
People make companies and these very people who I blame

Imperialism,Globalization,Consumerism fplloed by the western world in particular has resulted in large scale economic and social disturbances which in due course of time will contribute to global turmoil leading to escalation of violence worldwide
eventually culminating into events that will prove that human greed and stupidity are infinte .

Wait .... I think einstein has already proved that human stupidity was infinte :lol:
Americans and american corporations will soon prove that even human greed is infinite

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 09:54 AM
The iraqi&#39;s probably killed them
But the people who have been killed are people who went ther very well knowing
that fanatic muslims are looking to kill them
I would say they were foolish walking into a hungry lions cave and then complaining that the lion ate them


If you are canadian then I would like to offer my apologies as
I considered you american
Also canadians are not entirely innnocent but neither are they as guilty as americans

Now how ordinary americans support and influence world events

It&#39;s their consumption they are never happy with what they have and they
boast that they have high capita water consumption ,oil consumption this and that etcetc
and how its an indication of development

when people in other parts of the world are suffering without the same

India is trying to emulate america ,do you know what the consequences would be?
Imagine 1 billion people trying to emulate the wasteful living standards of America
I would say we would need 5 earths
Every time you fill your SUV its saudi oil that goes in
Did you know ExxonMobil made &#036; 22 billion in profits this year :blink:
Isn&#39;t that scary

Do you know in the near future corporations could take over countries
Maybe then we can have a United States of GE
or a Republic of ExxonMobil

We will even give them a seat in the UN security council :D
And we will give the United States of GE veto powers :lol:

These companies don&#39;t operate out of thin air
The driving forces of these companies are the humans
People make companies and these very people who I blame

Imperialism,Globalization,Consumerism fplloed by the western world in particular has resulted in large scale economic and social disturbances which in due course of time will contribute to global turmoil leading to escalation of violence worldwide
eventually culminating into events that will prove that human greed and stupidity are infinte .

Wait .... I think einstein has already proved that human stupidity was infinte :lol:
Americans and american corporations will soon prove that even human greed is infinite
Let&#39;s face it, some of these foreigners were working in the Middle East long before the war started......and we all know that fanatics are going to kill anyone that is different/doesn&#39;t agree with them. Their hatred extends to anyone that they feel is against them.

You&#39;re generalizing about Americans......not all are like that......just like not all muslims are fanatics. Not every american is wasteful......not all have anything to waste. Have you seen some of the poverty there?? Third World countries aren&#39;t the only countries with a lot of poverty. Canada has a considerable amount of poverty as well. Neither the U.S. or Canada can solve all the worlds problems. I&#39;m part of the middle class but I was dirt poor at one time and I managed to pull myself up. You can&#39;t expect North America. There&#39;s an old saying......If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day.....but if you teach him to fish, he eats for a lifetime. A hand up instead of a hand out needs to be done......but Canada and the U.S. do help.

If everyone hates the U.S. so much then why do they try so hard to emulate them?? If other countries are so stupid as to copy wasteful living then they have to deal with the consequences.

I personally don&#39;t own a vehicle of any kind other than a bicycle......I take public transportation to work as I have no desire to contribute to the smog in the air.
So what if Saudi oil goes in.....do you think the Saudi companies are suffering because of it??? I don&#39;t particularly care what Exxon/Mobile made......do you have any idea what it costs to process this oil and get it to other countries......what about the cost of research and development???

I don&#39;t think that this is the only cause of violence wold wide.......the Islamic extremists don&#39;t like Christians/Jews and would like the whole world to be Islamic. They will fight to turn us into what they are.

[revolutionindia]

How about ExxonMobil being nationalised and using half of the
22billion &#036; to help those in need of money,food,medicine?

I think the muslims jus twant to be left alone but nobody will

As of now me and my friend are planning to sell OsamaT-shirts
outside the US embassy. :D

Not sure if its worth the risk though we could get arrested or even lynched by a mob.

[gaf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 03:23 PM
Let&#39;s face it, some of these foreigners were working in the Middle East long before the war started......and we all know that fanatics are going to kill anyone that is different/doesn&#39;t agree with them. Their hatred extends to anyone that they feel is against them.


who is fanatic here? i really think bush and the system he represent is
you know the action interaction thing?
so if you have to choose don&#39; t choose for them
and you know freedom is not doing wat you want to .but merely makin choice
so make yourself space give yourself choices where osama and bush and kerry and those fuckin religious,politics bastards will never do for you because they don&#39; t care.kill those bastards and what they represent because they are now dining together without you&#33;
:ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:
kill the rich

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 03:33 PM
How about ExxonMobil being nationalised and using half of the
22billion &#036; to help those in need of money,food,medicine?

I think the muslims jus twant to be left alone but nobody will

As of now me and my friend are planning to sell OsamaT-shirts
outside the US embassy. :D

Not sure if its worth the risk though we could get arrested or even lynched by a mob.
If the muslims just wanted to be left alone then they wouldn&#39;t commit the atrocities that they have committed......if all they wanted was to be left alone then they wouldn&#39;t be committing terrorist attacks.

Stupidity at its&#39; best....maybe you&#39;ll be lucky and only get arrested......