Palestine - the truth - Although some people wouldn't like t

[GUERILLA MAN]

I know a few Jews and very few Arabs(from Lebanon) and I didn't miss the chance to get some info for the Palestine conflict from their lips. I thought that the Arabs and the Jews will say exactly the opposite(Jews will say it's Arabs' fault and Arabs would say that it's Jews' fault, but I felt very :confused: when they said almost the same things.
They all said that the Palestine conflict is kept on fire by the two radical religious wings - the Judaic and the Muslim.
But I think they've missed something - to understand whose fault it is that the extremists are not stopped. I think that the Palestine conflict is suitable and needed for only two men in Palestine - SHARON and ARAFAT!:angry::angry::angry:

[Blasphemy]

your point of view, guerilla man, is extremely simplistic. the roots of the conflict go much deeper than that. it started years ago, way before sharon and arafat were even born.

it's about hate so intrinsic that it blinds people from the truth. it's about blood that is spilled to easily. you cannot sum it all up in a few lines...

[Xenoth]

For my opinion, Jewish people or muslims are not guilty. The real guilty is america, who supports terrorist organizations and terrorist countries like Israel...
We must say to america "GO HOME" for solution...

[Derar]

I 100% agree with u Zenoth

[Guest1]

The conflict began as a conflict with deep roots. But now it is only kept alive by the ruling classes on both sides, and of course the US. They're th ones who need it to go on. Which is why they keep going into "independance" talks. Why not democratize Israel, drop the fascist laws and just give Palestinians citizenship. It might not solve all, but it would be a South-Africa-style giant leap towards peace. But no, Arafat and Sharon (in this case), need it to have power, and Bush needs it so that the US arms industry can sell more arms to the Israeli government.

[Conghaileach]

The only solution, IMHO, is to create a single secular socialist state. (Talk about alliteration ;))

Unfortunately, that's not very likely thanks to Amerikkkan interference in the area. I agree with Che y Marijuana (nice name, btw) that the ruling classes are the ones who are keeping this thing going.

[Blasphemy]

creating a single socialist state is the best solution theoretically.

practically, it's impossible. in 50 years the palestinians will become the vast majority and the jews' rights will be revoked. the jews will once again become a minority, and the entire point of the state of israel will be lost.

dividing the land to two states is practically the best solution. it will guarantee the rights of both peoples.

[DaNatural]

The country to blame for this is the United Kingdom, not america. THis problem started because those bloodsucking, colonialists, decided to allow jews into palestine, which they occupied after the first war. As hitler went on the war path they told more jews to go and it was seen positively, however, the jews were told that this was not to be there country, but they could live there. The jews got greedy as there known to do and decided to start a war and try to claim a land that wasnt theres, not even ancestorally. The real jews were not white therefore the modern people of israel have no claim at al to the land because it wasnt there ancestors who were kicked out. THe real jews were dark skinned individuals. Down with the Israel state they deserve nothing. Im sure this will infuriate some people but thats the truth, theyshoulve been happy with jst being able to stay, now they act like they own the whole damn thing. IF america wasnt stuck up their ass Arab countries would have destroyed that evil israel leadership and they would be left with a small portion of land while the palestinians rightly get back what is theres.

[guerrillaradio]

DaNatural - Yes, the UK and the UN are to blame, but they were panicking after the genocide of 6 million, remember...

THe situation is down to fundamental and restrictive religion and culture. Some kinda understanding needs to be reached between the two sides, then there could be hope.

[Blasphemy]

danatural, does your post stink of anti-semetism or is it just me? i am white, and i am jewish. so, according to you, i am not a real jew, that means i have no right to live in israel. you're a little messed up.

[Xenoth]

thanks for your history lecture DaNatural. We must look today. Say to me! Which imperialist country bases on middle east? United kingdom :) Absolutely, USA...
Is that important that white jewish or dark-skinned?
I have not any cuban relatives or vietnamese relatives.
However i am a Cuban or a Hanoi citizen..
I believe this two nations will live in peace when usa goes away...

[Xenoth]

thanks for your history lecture DaNatural. We must look today. Say to me! Which imperialist country bases on middle east? United kingdom :) Absolutely, USA...
Is that important that white jewish or dark-skinned?
I have not any cuban relatives or vietnamese relatives.
However i am a Cuban or a Hanoi citizen..
I believe these two nations will live in peace when usa goes away...

[DaNatural]

Blashphemy my post reeks of anti semitism and it is rightly vented in this post my friend. The Israel government claims the right to the palestinian land because they say that it is the original land of the jews which is true. But, one thing you and all your colonialist/zionist friends fail to realize is that you and your fellow european/white jews are not the real true owners of the land. THe jews who were kicked off were not white they were brown skinned, some even say black, therefore modern day jews claim to the land is bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think what you want of me , I frankly dont care if you are disgusted that my posts contain traces of anti-semitism, the bottom line is what im saying is the truth and read your history texts and you will see it for yourself.

[Blasphemy]

your post not only reaks of anti-semetism, but of stupidity and ignorance as well. i thought that the ignorant people are confined to the Capitalism vs. Socialism board, but now i see they are all over.

my family has been living on this land for over a hundred years. we are all white-skinned. how can i not have the right to live here? my father was born here, and so was my grandfather. i know the history of this land, i love this land and i have deep roots here. i have every right to live here, and saying otherwise is unfair and and down right idiotic.

and do you really think all jews in israel are white? we have people from europe, ethiopia, marroco, the US, yemen, iraq, iran, egypt, syria and lybia. not everyone is white, you know.

so danatural, you are not my friend. right now, i really don't like you....

[Derar]

u have deep roots there ? u mean roots since 1945 ?!!

[Blasphemy]

no, i actually mean since 1900.

[Reuben]

Before I make my post I would like to make clear my position as an anti-sionist.

Regarding jews from eastern euope, yes they do have semitic routs. DNA evidence proves it. of course there are other influences but there link with the semitic is existent, not that this gives any greater legitimacy to the racist state of Israel. In fact my mothers mname bard which was never changed actually comes from ancient hebrew spoken by the jews in the semitic world.

ANyway sorry to deviate. I am an antizionst but, da natural, when you say "the jews got greedy as they have known to in the past" I find that your smallminded racist mindset, based on nothing but european historical stereotypes not only, offensive to me as a secular jew, but embarrassing to me as a fellow anti-zionist. PLease explain

[El Che]

"i am white, and i am jewish. so, according to you, i am not a real jew, that means i have no right to live in israel."

You are misrepresenting danatural, he said white jews dont have an ancestoral claim to palestine. Now, the validity of this statement is questionable, personaly I have no info on the subject but it seems to a simplistic asumtion. However, nowhere did danatural speak of "real jews", so your acusation is unfounded and unrelated.

"your post not only reaks of anti-semetism, but of stupidity and ignorance as well. i thought that the ignorant people are confined to the Capitalism vs. Socialism board, but now i see they are all over.

my family has been living on this land for over a hundred years. we are all white-skinned. how can i not have the right to live here?"

You have no right. You have no right to the land and you have no right to oppress and murder the rightful owners of what you have stolen. You are a criminal, like all Isrealies. Furthermore if anyone such be restricted to the SvsC its you, for your unfounded deflamatory insults and your Zionism.

"the jews got greedy as they have known to in the past"

I would never expected this sort of ignorante, idiotic, offensive and rascist postulation from you.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from DaNatural on 2:16 am on May 14, 2002
The jews got greedy as there known to do and decided to start a war and try to claim a land that wasnt theres, not even ancestorally.
Gee, how original. From now on, why doesn't eveyone on this board just start each post with "those dirty jews that are so greedy . . . "

The Jews didn't start that war. They all wanted to return to Eastern Europe after the Holocaust, but weren't given a choice in the matter. The Allies, who didn't have much of a problem with taking tons of lives or money from the Germans, couldn't be bothered to see that what had once belonged to the Jews was returned to them. (Their homes, their possessions, etc.) Furthermore, each of the Allies accepted very few Jews. We all know the stories of the Jewish boats being turned away from America. Anyway, Israel was established as a way to keep France, England and America non-Jewish and to keep Jewish belongings out of the hands of their rightful owners.

[DaNatural]

I;m glad my posts have stirred up such anger on here, however, I must say i apologize for my racist remark about jews. The action of the Israelis have really gotten to me. Not only the ones in Israel but I see thousands of jews in america and canada supporting this scumbag, sharon, and it infuriates me. Now getting back to my original comment, but before i go on blasphemy you saying your family has been there for a hundred years is meaningless who gives a shit, that just means you are small minority in a land. The modern israel gov/t claims that parts of palestine really belong to them because that was the home of jews over 1800 years ago. That is their claim. Now I say the modern white european jew-they are the ones in power- doesnt have the right to own these lands because , ancestorally these lands are not theres. I have a simple question for you guys, what colour was jesus christ, or moses for that matter, if you guys say white then your fooling yourself. The original people of Israel were dark skinned and i wouldnt disagree with someone if they even said black. AT the time the jews were kicked out around 125 A.D. this was there skin tone. NOW! this is why i say the modern jews claim to this land is bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read your history texts folks this is about power not about real history to the modern jew.
p.s. to give you an example of who some of the real descendants are, we can look just recently, over the last few years, at around 60,000 jews who were allowed to immigrant to israel from ethiopia. now this is what the original jews looked like. Now if they were to create a storm and ask for land back i wouldnt have a problem, but as we see the ones making these ridiculous demands are white european jews!

[DaNatural]

one last thing i would like to add is that although many of you are trying to "diss" me and call me stupid and ignorant none of you except for El Che whom i respect has even made a mention of my comments about the original jews. Why wont any of you zionists speak on the issue? I feel im being called names because im saying somethying you dont want to hear.

[El Che]

IWDY, the creation of isreal, starting with the declaration of Balfour and all subsuquent crimes was a voluntary movement but a part of the Jewish "population" or ethinic group, through the Zionist movement. It was not involuntary, quite the contrary, it can he traced back to the 19th century. These individuals bidded their time, in clear premeditation of their actions with no regard, not even a thought, for the native Arabs. Its truly shocking, such a contempt for others, Zionism is unqualifiable. All wars where started by Isreal, and there is more to come, there is more to come because zionists aren`t through with palestine yet. They`ve said it many times, since 1800+ they said it among them selves, thats the real issue, the real hidden agenda and gradual process that is being hidden by diverting attention to "terrorism". Of course western media lends a helping hand with its studificating media, but the truth is nobody cares, there`re to bissy following fassion.

danatural, this subject is very sensitive and it can source of much anger, but its important to keep a clear mind, most jews have nothing to do with the crimes of isreal, and some dont even defend them.

[Blasphemy]

You have no right. You have no right to the land and you have no right to oppress and murder the rightful owners of what you have stolen. You are a criminal, like all Isrealies. Furthermore if anyone such be restricted to the SvsC its you, for your unfounded deflamatory insults and your Zionism.

well, el che, i have to say i have never encountered such unfounded hate in any other post here.

I, Roey, have never stolen anyone's land. my grandfather came to this land a hundred years ago with the money that he rightfully made, settled in a house that he bought with this money and worked for a living.
just to add something, my grandfather is considered to be the greatest israeli historian ever. he knew everything about israel and its history.

I live in a town that was founded by my parents on an empty land. it was once a wasteland, and now it's a great town with green lawns and parks.

the jews did not steal anyone's land. more correctly, maybe some did, but i, nor my family, did not. so next time you feel the urge to accuse me of something that i have never done, maybe you should try and contain yourself.

[Blasphemy]

All wars where started by Isreal

you obviously have a very distorted sense of history. this has nothing to do with zionism, it is just not true. the arabs were always the one to start wars, not israel. the one exception is the 1982 invasion into lebanon, but that is a different subject that does not belong here.

you also have a very distorted sense of government. it doesn't matter how stands in the head of the government, they have to represent the public. so if a large majority in the public deserves something, the prime minister has to comply, with no regard if he is part of that group or not. i'm just talking generally, not on this subject particularly.

and just to make things clear: i do not support my country's actions. i do not support Ariel Sharon and his government. i do not support the policy of war adopted by sharon. i do not support the occupation of the territories and i do not support the opression of the palestinians.

but you have to understand something very trivial. on the day israel was founded it was smaller than lebanon. israel only spread on the shore's plain, which is a strip along the sea. there was not a single arab village there at the time.
when israel was attacked by 7 different armies, it managed to occupy much land. on the day of the armistice agreements, israel has expanded to the size that we know today (except the golan height). it didn't occupy the gaza strip and the west bank, though. so just to summarize until now - israel occupied the land in a war it did not start.
after the war, a large percentage of the arabs left israel because they were persuaded to do so by their leaders. their leaders told them that they will soon be able to return to their homes, because israel would be destroyed. the israeli government, including PM David Ben Gurion, tried to convince the arabs to stay. they promised them full rights like any other jewish citizen, but the arabs, fueled by hate which was cultivated by their leaders, decided to leave in rage.
the arab leaders decided to keep the refugees in small and crowded camps in Jenin, Ramallah, Gaza and other cities. they wanted to use the refugees as political pawns in their fight against israel. at that time, there were only a few thousands of refugees. their problem could have been solved very quickly, but it didn't coincide with the intentions of the arab leaders.

that is the truth. i speak only history.

[El Che]

Blasphemy, you pay tribute to your name, it suites you. You bring us the lies of criminals, the very same criminals that elected the man responsible for letting the Falangists into Sabra and Shatilla. You know your history, which means your vile and disgusting rethoric is made in full conscience of the crimes your nation has had to perpetrate in order to enssure not only its existence, but its existence acording to the Zionist dream. What Zionists want, is the whole of palestine, they assume it, they seek it and they`ll trample over anyone and anything they can in order to achive their goal. Sucessive wars, started and indeed desired by Isreal, serve only the purpose of allowing Isreal to exist on its own condictions, that is their ultimate goal. Dening the arabs a right to self determination, refusing to co-exist and persuing rascist policy lines, while stealing land ever foward. Your right I do hate you, but unfortunatly for you, I dont let my emotions cloud my judgement and my thinking. Its funny that our "comrade" Blasphemy mentions Gurion, we will have more on him later on.


"I, Roey, have never stolen anyone's land. my grandfather came to this land a hundred years ago with the money that he rightfully made, settled in a house that he bought with this money and worked for a living.
just to add something, my grandfather is considered to be the greatest israeli historian ever. he knew everything about israel and its history.

I live in a town that was founded by my parents on an empty land. it was once a wasteland, and now it's a great town with green lawns and parks."

Bought the land did he? waste land was it? Here is the truth:

"An article by Yitzhak Epstein, published in Hashiloah in 1907...called for a new Zionist policy towards the Arabs after 30 years of settlement activity...Like Ahad-Ha'am in 1891, Epstein claims that no good land is vacant, so Jewish settlement meant Arab dispossession...Epstein's solution to the problem, so that a new "Jewish question" may be avoided, is the creation of a bi-national, non-exclusive program of settlement and development. Purchasing land should not involve the dispossession of poor sharecroppers. It should mean creating a joint farming community, where the Arabs will enjoy modern technology. Schools, hospitals and libraries should be non-exclusivist and education bilingual...The vision of non-exclusivist, peaceful cooperation to replace the practice of dispossession found few takers. Epstein was maligned and scorned for his faintheartedness." Israeli author, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, "Original Sins."

"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

"The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was `to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.'...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote that the Arabs "understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at'...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] `We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly'...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund's request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

"Britain's high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said 'all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators'...The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

"Zionist land policy was incorporated in the Constitution of the Jewish Agency for Palestine...'land is to be acquired as Jewish property and..the title to the lands acquired is to be taken in the name of the Jewish National Fund, to the end that the same shall be held as the inalienable property of the Jewish people.' The provision goes to stipulate that 'the Agency shall promote agricultural colonization based on Jewish labor'...The effect of this Zionist colonization policy on the Arabs was that land acquired by Jews became extra-territorialized. It ceased to be land from which the Arabs could ever hope to gain any advantage...

"The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, 'there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.' He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

"Clearly, the last thing the Zionists really wanted was that all the inhabitants of Palestine should have an equal say in running the country... [Chaim] Weizmann had impressed on Churchill that representative government would have spelled the end of the [Jewish] National Home in Palestine... [Churchill declared,] 'The present form of government will continue for many years. Step by step we shall develop representative institutions leading to full self-government, but our children's children will have passed away before that is accomplished.'" David Hirst, "The Gun and the Olive Branch."

"Even if nobody lost their land, the [Zionist] program was unjust in principle because it denied majority political rights... Zionism, in principle, could not allow the natives to exercise their political rights because it would mean the end of the Zionist enterprise." Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, "Original Sins."

"In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt... David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that 'in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,' but he urged, 'let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.' The truth was that 'politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside'... The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

"In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine...After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs.

Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced 'absentee landlords' in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances)." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

"and just to make things clear: i do not support my country's actions. i do not support Ariel Sharon and his government. i do not support the policy of war adopted by sharon. i do not support the occupation of the territories and i do not support the opression of the palestinians."

How nice and generous a soul you are.

"but you have to understand something very trivial. on the day israel was founded it was smaller than lebanon. israel only spread on the shore's plain, which is a strip along the sea. there was not a single arab village there at the time.
when israel was attacked by 7 different armies, it managed to occupy much land. on the day of the armistice agreements, israel has expanded to the size that we know today (except the golan height). it didn't occupy the gaza strip and the west bank, though. so just to summarize until now - israel occupied the land in a war it did not start.
after the war, a large percentage of the arabs left israel because they were persuaded to do so by their leaders. their leaders told them that they will soon be able to return to their homes, because israel would be destroyed. the israeli government, including PM David Ben Gurion, tried to convince the arabs to stay. they promised them full rights like any other jewish citizen, but the arabs, fueled by hate which was cultivated by their leaders, decided to leave in rage.
the arab leaders decided to keep the refugees in small and crowded camps in Jenin, Ramallah, Gaza and other cities. they wanted to use the refugees as political pawns in their fight against israel. at that time, there were only a few thousands of refugees. their problem could have been solved very quickly, but it didn't coincide with the intentions of the arab leaders."

More lies. More truth:


1948
"While the Yishuv's leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israel's society - including...Ben-Gurion - were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians." Israeli historian, Benny Morris, in "Tikkun", March/April 1998.

"In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

"In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem's streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by the People Press Palestine Book Project.

"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,'...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."

1967
"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."

"In violation of international law, Israel has confiscated over 52 percent of the land in the West Bank and 30 percent of the Gaza Strip for military use or for settlement by Jewish civilians...From 1967 to 1982, Israel's military government demolished 1,338 Palestinian homes on the West Bank. Over this period, more than 300,000 Palestinians were detained without trial for various periods by Israeli security forces." Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising Against Israeli Occupation," ed. Lockman and Beinin.

"Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action was defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not...The [UN] General Assembly characterized Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as a denial of self determination and hence a 'serious and increasing threat to international peace and security.' " John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

"The Geneva Convention requires an occupying power to change the existing order as little as possible during its tenure. One aspect of this obligation is that it must leave the territory to the people it finds there. It may not bring its own people to populate the territory. This prohibition is found in the convention's Article 49, which states, 'The occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.'" John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

These are historical facts, and they are the words of Zionists like your self. Catch a fish by its mouth is what I say, and after you do that, cut and gut the bastardo.

(Edited by El Che at 12:11 pm on May 16, 2002)

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Comrade El Che, I believe our friend Blasphemy is not very interested in the objective historical truth of the conflict. Anyone, with a real knowledge of the situation in the middle east can ceritfy that the Israeli government had no intention of sharing the land they occupied nor will they ever intend to do so. On the contrary, they are still pursuing their policy of building new 'illegal' settlements in order to continue their colonisation programme.

Dear Blasphemy, it is because of people like you that peace in the middle east can never materialise. And quite frankly, I believe that your distorted zionist views should have no place in these forums.

[Blasphemy]

okay, this has got out of hand. because of people like me peace could never be materialized? when you say people like me do you mean fanatic peace activists who take part in rallies and in convoys who break through into Jenin with trucks loaded with food and medication? of course that what you mean, because that's who i am.... so because of all those fucking peace activists, peace can never be achieved....

[Blasphemy]

because i'm israeli, you seem to associate me with the government. if the government does something, it doesn't mean that i support it. you do know that not all israelis are the same, right?

[Fabi]

hey blasphemy,
regardless of what i think about this issue:
of course you are responsible for what your government does and for everything every zionist like you said a hundred years ago.
and dont lie about being a peace activist... we could alljust make that one up... dirty lying jew.

of course all israeli are greedy zionist pigs.... just like all germans are nazis... damn i hate those germans, stealing money from the USA to kiss ass and plan a new nazi conspiracy behind everyone's back. germans are almost as bad as israeli.....

come to think of it.... ummm... what nationality was i again???
this thread is turning out quite ugly....
peace....

[Blasphemy]

i really hope you are joking...

[Fabi]

as a matter of fact im german... ;)

yeah, i was indeed joking... it wasnt a very good joke, but it was better than cussing people out and banging my head against the wall.... which i would have had to do otherwise.... ;)

and before i forget... dont all french smell and the women are hairy and stuff? ;)

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 11:50 pm on May 15, 2002
Not only the ones in Israel but I see thousands of jews in america and canada supporting this scumbag, sharon, and it infuriates me.[hr]Well, we've all heard America described as a "melting pot", and one of the unfortunate effects of a melting pot on a specific culture is that its members begin to lose their identity. That's a big problem with a lot of Jews in America . . . they see supporting Sharon as a way to feel more Jewish. They are really jealous of people living in "the Holy Land", and would go along with nearly anything that Israel does. If Israeli citizens elected a leftist peacenik Prime Minister tomorrow, American citizens would support that guy, too. American Jews aren't supporting Sharon because they like his policies, they're supporting Sharon because they'd feel less Jewish if they criticized any high-ranking Israeli official without simultaneously agreeing with an even higher-ranking official. And the sad fact is, Israel is in the news the most and Jews feel the most Jewish when there is the most tension between Israel and Palestine. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the mainstream American Jew's attitude is excusable . . . it's not, by any means. But it also should not be misunderstood as agreement with Sharon's specific policies.[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 11:50 pm on May 15, 2002
The modern israel gov/t claims that parts of palestine really belong to them because that was the home of jews over 1800 years ago.[hr]I agree that this is pure bullshit. There isn't a single slice of land on this planet that hasn't changed hands in the course of human history, and while imperialism should not be treated lightly, after almost two millennia it's time to start letting bygones be bygones. The Palestinians didn't take the land directly from the Jews, anyway. If every group that had control of Israel in the past 2000 years were to come forward and claim it, there would be a population explosion.[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 11:50 pm on May 15, 2002
Now I say the modern white european jew-they are the ones in power- doesnt have the right to own these lands because , ancestorally these lands are not theres. I have a simple question for you guys, what colour was jesus christ, or moses for that matter, if you guys say white then your fooling yourself. The original people of Israel were dark skinned and i wouldnt disagree with someone if they even said black.[hr]The Jews were indeed dark-skinned at one point, but according to Jewish law the majority of the white Jews who you're referring to have as much of a claim to Israel as the Falashas. (Now, I'm not a Zionist and I don't believe that anyone has a claim to Israel except for the Palestinians, but I'm just making a point that white Jews are no less Jewish than black Jews.) The Ashkenazis are descended from the Khazars more than anyone else, and most of the Khazars' conversions were approved by the prominent rabbis of the time. In Judaism, a person who converts the right way is not to be treated as any less Jewish than a person who is a member of a Jewish ethnic group and has Jewish ancestry.[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 11:50 pm on May 15, 2002
The original people of Israel were dark skinned and i wouldnt disagree with someone if they even said black.[hr]The Lembas and Falashas interbred with the populations of the land they settled in much like the white Jews. The Jews' skin tone when they lived in Israel was probably closer to the Mizos and the Beni Menasche.[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 11:50 pm on May 15, 2002
Read your history texts folks this is about power not about real history to the modern jew.[hr]If you wouldn't mind my changing the subject from history to science, genetics has proven that many white Jews, especially Sephardim, have a lot of the hereditary traits that are uncommon outside of the black Jewish populations.[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 11:50 pm on May 15, 2002
p.s. to give you an example of who some of the real descendants are, we can look just recently, over the last few years, at around 60,000 jews who were allowed to immigrant to israel from ethiopia.[hr]The Falashas are, in all probability, less genetically Jewish than the Lemba. Anyway, I met some Ethiopian Jews (not in Israel, where I've never been, but here in DC and when I was in Ethiopia) and they don't hold the same attitude that you do when it comes to race and Judaism. They consider Ashkenazis (the Jews most commonly blamed for Zionism) to be just as Jewish as they are in every single way.[hr]Quote: from El Che on 1:41 am on May 16, 2002
IWDY, the creation of isreal, starting with the declaration of Balfour and all subsuquent crimes was a voluntary movement but a part of the Jewish "population" or ethinic group, through the Zionist movement. It was not involuntary, quite the contrary, it can he traced back to the 19th century. These individuals bidded their time, in clear premeditation of their actions with no regard, not even a thought, for the native Arabs. Its truly shocking, such a contempt for others, Zionism is unqualifiable. All wars where started by Isreal, and there is more to come, there is more to come because zionists aren`t through with palestine yet. They`ve said it many times, since 1800+ they said it among them selves, thats the real issue, the real hidden agenda and gradual process that is being hidden by diverting attention to "terrorism". Of course western media lends a helping hand with its studificating media, but the truth is nobody cares, there`re to bissy following fassion.[hr]Until the Holocaust, Zionism was popular in the elite circles of Judaism only. The regular Jews didn't see any reason to leave and steal someone else's land. A few of the elites really did believe in Zionism, but many of them didn't think that it would ever happen and only spoke about it to combat anti-semitism. (There's a great book on this called The Longest Hatred or something like that.)[hr]Quote: from El Che on 1:41 am on May 16, 2002
danatural, this subject is very sensitive and it can source of much anger, but its important to keep a clear mind, most jews have nothing to do with the crimes of isreal, and some dont even defend them.[hr]Especially in the past few weeks, it would have been nice if more people acknowledged this.

Lindsay

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 4:18 pm on May 16, 2002)

[Bakunjin]

I would like to ask one question? WHY THE FUCK DID ISRAELI PEOPLE CHOOSE ARIEL SHARON FOR PRIME MINISTER????

[DaNatural]

Lindsay im glad u recognize that the original people of israel were not white. now that we've established that i would like to comment on something you said. You said that rabbis or clerics, or some highly esteemed figure, regarded the white jews who converted as "real" jews. Now that is fine and well but that is just religiously and culturally. That doesn't mean that they are the real inheritors of the land. That is my main point. Furthermore, if ethiopians you've met say that the white jews deserve the land then they are simply accomplices in the zionist mission. People who are not direct descendants of those people who owned the lands originally, dont deserve the land.

[I Will Deny You]

[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 4:52 pm on May 16, 2002
You said that rabbis or clerics, or some highly esteemed figure, regarded the white jews who converted as "real" jews. Now that is fine and well but that is just religiously and culturally. That doesn't mean that they are the real inheritors of the land. That is my main point.[hr]I too believe that white Jews are not inheritors of the land. I don't think that Israel belongs to any Jews. It belongs to Palestinians. Race has nothing to do with this, really.[hr]Quote: from DaNatural on 4:52 pm on May 16, 2002
Furthermore, if ethiopians you've met say that the white jews deserve the land then they are simply accomplices in the zionist mission.[hr]When I wrote about the Ethiopians, I didn't mean that they thought Ashkenazis deserved to live in Israel and I'm sorry if it came off that way. What I meant to say was that the Falashas consider Ashkenazis just as Jewish as they are, and this has nothing to do with Zionism but rather non-land claim related teachings of the Torah on love and acceptance of any fellow Jew as your brother/sister.

Lindsay

[El Che]

Blasphemy where is your answer to my post?

[Blasphemy]

el che, just like you quote books who say one thing, i can quote you history books that say another thing...

but besides history books, i have other information resources....

and one last thing, it doesn't really make sense that israel attacked in 1973. the war started during the jewish Yum Kippur day, a day when all jews aren't suppose to eat anything in order to cleanse the soul. so why would israel attack with a bunch of hungry soldiers who cannot fight???