Capitalism has collapsed!

[ComradeRed]

I have been looking into Historical Materialism and Das Kapital lately, I was recently thinking about the collapse of capitalism also! However, when I look into this, it appears that capitalism is no longer in practice (at least in the U$). Feudalism, as described by Comrade Redstar2000, is "Feudalism: the replacement of a single despot by a small number of mini-despots who owned huge tracts of agricultural holdings, with laborors being the property of the estate rather than the "lord" (serfs)" as most of us know. However, this looks more like todays economics. Could it be that we went back in time?

Not likely; however, it is, in my best judgement, that we are no longer in capitalism but another 'stage'.

What do you guys think about this?

[YKTMX]

I'll have some of what this guy's having please.

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 07:42 PM
I'll have some of what this guy's having please.

Same as.

You speak of another "stage" in historical development, that supposedly went unnoticed. Could you please elucidate what this "stage" actually is, I'm really not sure what you're getting at.

To say that Feudalism is like today's economics is surely folly. Feudalist landowners effectively "owned" the serfs that worked their land. Such serfs were not "wage-labourers", rather they had to work for the landlord in order to gain some subsistence. It wasn't capitalism, economic power at all divorced from political power was inconceivable.

Feudalism was usurped long ago by the merchant classes, it hasn't come back since. Period.


Could it be that we went back in time?


Perhaps; if your time machine was somewhat "Baldrick-esque", who knows?

[ComradeRed]

I'm sorry for not responding sooner, I fell asleep.

Allow me to reiterate: could it be that there is another stage in historical materialism? It really doesn't look like we're in capitalism anymore. I am starting to think of the current situation as corporate feudalism, that is to say that corporations "own" people. Of course, these people "still have rights" but if they are "fired" they are as good as "sold".

I suppose that corporations aren't really run by the "vassals" of old but a new oligarchy of the rich. I too suppose that this would "disqualify" itself as "feudalism" which is why I personally think that this is why there is another stage after capitalism.

I still might not be saying this correctly, I had no coffee today :(

[redstar2000]

I think I see what you're getting at...there are some interesting parallels between feudalism and monopoly capitalism.

But what it would take to make your hypothesis at least plausible would be some kind of observable change in the relations of production.

Instead of wage-labor, there'd have to be some "new form" of productive relationship between those who own the means of production and those who labor for them.

Suppose, for example, that in order to get a job you had to sign a "personal services contract" -- that's where you agree to perform any service for your employer that he might demand in exchange for your pay -- and suppose further that this contract could only be terminated by the employer.

That would, indeed, be a kind of "industrial serfdom". As things stand, however, only a very tiny number of people are employed in that kind of arrangement (less than 0.01% of the workforce) and those contracts are time-limited, not indefinite.

One cannot rule out the possibility of an unexpected "new form" of class society that Marx did not anticipate...but thus far, the evidence for that is so close to zero as makes no difference.

Have some coffee! :)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Pete]

I think, not to bring too much philosophy in to this, that Nietzsche was pointing out something similar. If you compare the "Last Man" of the Genealogy of Morals with the "Last Man" of Robert Kaplan's 'The Coming Anarchy' (Atlantic Monthly, Feb/94) you will see how increasingly the bulk of society is falling into the Nietzsche perspective, which encloses itself around Kaplan's view of the concept (which he takes from someone else). Indeed capitalism is collasping, but it has yet to do so. Kaplan seems to believe that the 'middle class' world will survive 'the coming anarchy' (which is more 'the coming warlordism' not anarchy, but that is besides the point) because of our technology and industry. The major problem with his hypothesis is that he forgets to see what Nietzsche saw. When the third world goes, the first world will fall of the precipise in the abyss, and will be flung, for the most part, into a deeper insanity than the rest of the world because we, as a culture and grouping of socieites, have more to loose, materially. The Nihilists, whether they be the anarchists, communists, socialists, whatever, will be the only ones who will be able to stand amid the shards of our fallen society.