Things Never Talked About...

[Spartacus2002]

How come we never talk about the following things:

1. Where the crusades an example of christian barbarity and cruelty or meerly a response to the Islamic expansion that was occuring in that era and would have continued for hundreds of years. (remember that at this time the muslims were within walking distance of Vienna and in control of spain) Given that most people in Europe did not want to convert to Islam and that the Islamic expansion would have continued for centuries was the crusades not a justified response? (from a medevil christian perspective

2. Why does everyone give so much air time to the fact that the palestinians are oppressed when they enjoy more democratic rights in isreal then there neighbors in Egypt and Jordon arent the Jordanians and Egyptians worth the same outcry? And although they are treated bad in Isreal which i dont agree with, haven't Jews in the middle east been treated bad for centuries? Why not feel sorry for them too.


3. We get very mad about the US torturing iraqis (and rightfully so) but we dont get mad about the Arabs torturing their own people, i am certain that more muslims have been tortured by muslims then by christians. I think that the outcry should be just as great if not greater.

Just some things to think about... i think we as people have the duty to try not to let our political ideologies block us from seeing what is right and wrong.

[LuZhiming]

1. Where the crusades an example of christian barbarity and cruelty or meerly a response to the Islamic expansion that was occuring in that era and would have continued for hundreds of years. (remember that at this time the muslims were within walking distance of Vienna and in control of spain) Given that most people in Europe did not want to convert to Islam and that the Islamic expansion would have continued for centuries was the crusades not a justified response? (from a medevil christian perspective"

I don't think anyone is saying that Christians didn't have the right to fight against Islamic expansion, but rather the actual things they did to fight it, and the things they used it as an excuse to do. The sort of mass murder, conquest, and persecution of people who weren't followers of Islam or Christianity are unacceptable from any standpoint.


2. Why does everyone give so much air time to the fact that the palestinians are oppressed when they enjoy more democratic rights in isreal then there neighbors in Egypt and Jordon arent the Jordanians and Egyptians worth the same outcry?

Well, the reason for that is that the Palestinians enjoy no Democratic rights, contrary to these absurd claims. Palestinians live in an apartheid state, their living conditions are much worse than Jordan or Egypt(even though before the state of Israel was formed, the areas Gaza and the West Bank were both more advanced and prosperous than Jordan was. Plus the Palestinians are killed on a level unheard of in Jordan or Egypt. They have extremely limited supplies of essential resources due to purposeful racist policies by Israel, Palestinian homes are destroyed to make way for Jewish settlements constantly(you will find nothing like that in Egypt or Jordan), and besides, Israel has no right to Gaza or the West Bank anyway, the Palestinians are an occupied people unlike Jordanians and Egyptians. Although it is that people should be more aware of the unacceptable dictatorial nature of Arab dictators.


And although they are treated bad in Isreal which i dont agree with, haven't Jews in the middle east been treated bad for centuries? Why not feel sorry for them too.

First off, a lof of people do feel sorry for Jews, no people have the amount of priviledges as Jews today have of going through how they are constantly oppressed and attacked. The hysteria about Anti-Semitism is incredible. Just try reading some Europen government reports or new books coming out about the new uprisings of Anti-Semitism. They're absoultely luny. Besides, you could easily replace Jews with Druze, or with Kurds, or anyone else. It's simply a distraction to bring it up in this way. Yes, the small amount of Jews who still live in Arab countries are discriminated against. Yes, there has been too much persecution of Jews by Muslims in the Middle East, although one can't help but point out that it has never been at the level of Christian persecution of Jews. Also I would like to point out that North Africa managed to keep peace and solidarity between Jews and Muslims for a long time, a lot of Jews fled from Christian persecution in Spain to go there. Or speaking of Spain, for a long period when it was under Muslim rule, Jews and Muslims lived together in a time and both had an impressive period of developement in education and the arts. Why not talk about that? It is correct to suggest that there is a huge problem of Anti-Semitism in Muslim countries, however when we start going into history here, we can't look at one side of the coin and simply say "Jews in the Middle East [have] been treated bad for centuries".


3. We get very mad about the US torturing iraqis (and rightfully so) but we dont get mad about the Arabs torturing their own people, i am certain that more muslims have been tortured by muslims then by christians. I think that the outcry should be just as great if not greater.

Well, I do agree that we should be fair in criticizing atrocities by people. Some people, notably on this board are looking for excuses to attack U.S. leaders and others. Although I'm not sure I think we should have as much of an outcry on these events, depending on what you mean. Americans should generally focus more on the issues that involve the United States because we can do something about it, and it is our responsibility to put a stop to it. It's a bit more complicated when you're talking about Canadians or Brits, there are plenty who are just trying to attack the United States, and those sorts of actions are shameful, you are right that everyone should focus more on the atrocities of Arab dictators. One Last point though, the fact is, people in the United States, France, Germany, Britain, etc. should not make themselves feel comfortable by criticizing the atrocities of Arab dictators, it is great to acknowledge and condemn those atrocities, but we Westerners should put a lot of emphasis to the fact that our governments whose actions we usually permit are the ones who are keeping these despots in power, it is mainly the U.S., but other Western countries are greatly involved too, and we should focus on that instead of blindly criticizing a particular country, whether its Americans criticizing Saudis, or Germans criticizing Americans, they should pay a lot of attention also to their role in that. So I agree with you that some people are going overboard, but we have understand when exactly you get to that level.

[redstar2000]

Where the crusades an example of Christian barbarity and cruelty or merely a response to the Islamic expansion that was occurring in that era and would have continued for hundreds of years?

I think you are a bit confused on the chronology. The crusades took around 1100-1200 or so...and there was no Islamic expansion going on then except, perhaps, for pressure on the crumbling Byzantine "empire".

Later on, after the defeat of the crusades, Turkish Muslims did conquer a fair amount of southeastern Europe...and indeed did reach the walls of Vienna before being defeated. This was several centuries after the crusades.


Given that most people in Europe did not want to convert to Islam and that the Islamic expansion would have continued for centuries, were the crusades not a justified response?

One could say so, but the crusaders did not, in fact, make that argument. The "cause" was the "liberation of the Holy Land from the infidel"...not "self-defense" from Islamic imperialism.


Why does everyone give so much air time to the fact that the Palestinians are oppressed when they enjoy more democratic rights in Israel than there neighbors in Egypt and Jordon?

A very dubious assertion. We don't have a "democratic-rights-meter" to accurately measure such things...but I imagine it's pretty bad in all those places.

It's likely that Palestinians living inside Israel's regular borders have more "rights" on paper than Palestinians living in Egypt or Jordan. But the truth of the matter is very different, as we all should know.


...haven't Jews in the middle east been treated bad for centuries?

Only by Christians. Prior to the 20th century, Islam had a "sparkling" record with regard to the Jews...indeed, I don't think I've ever read of a pogrom against the Jews by the Muslims.

When Christians completed the conquest of Spain (1490s), the first thing they did was expel the remaining Muslims and all the Jews. It was the Muslim-Turkish Ottoman Empire that welcomed the refugees with "open arms" and treated them fairly and decently.

Modern Arab anti-semitism is, like it or not, a direct product of the Balfour Declaration (1917) and the Zionist goal of a Jewish state in Palestine. Before that, it didn't exist.


We get very mad about the US torturing Iraqis (and rightfully so) but we don't get mad about the Arabs torturing their own people.

Well, you don't see the Arab despotisms strutting in the spotlight as the "moral policemen" of the world.

It's America that puts on the cloak of righteousness to denounce the barbarism of other places while claiming to be "pure" and "above reproach" itself.

This nauseating hypocrisy stinks in the nostrils of everyone on the planet...with the expected response.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

2. Why does everyone give so much air time to the fact that the palestinians are oppressed when they enjoy more democratic rights in isreal then there neighbors in Egypt and Jordon arent the Jordanians and Egyptians worth the same outcry? And although they are treated bad in Isreal which i dont agree with, haven't Jews in the middle east been treated bad for centuries? Why not feel sorry for them too.

I think it would be relevant to point out the fact that the jews were mistreated and marginalized by the Europeans for hundreds of years much more than they were by the Arabs. Whoever told you otherwise is a zionist tool.

[h&s]

On the subject of the crusades, the word crusade comes from the latic 'crux,' which means cross (correct me if that is not latin, but I know that is the root of the word). The word means a war in the name of the cross, and regardless of the cause, any war based on religion is always wrong.

remember that at this time the muslims were within walking distance of Vienna and in control of spain As it has already been said, this was at a different time to the crusades. However, due to Christian control of Europe we do not hear the other stories of religous persecution in Spain. Sure the Moors invaded the place from Africa, but then England owned most of France at one point - europe was always at war with itself. Now when the Moors lost control, within 50 years the Spanish had manages to kick pretty much every one of the thousands of Muslims out of Spain. That is religous persecution, but we don't talk about that either.

Given that most people in Europe did not want to convert to Islam and that the Islamic expansion would have continued for centuries was the crusades not a justified response?
Do you think they wanted to be Christians either? Do you think they wanted to be forced to go to church every sunday? Do you think they wanted the church to control all learning, and what information was let into the public domain? Sure, they may have claimed they were willing, but that's what happens when you're brainwashed from an early age....

[abigratsass]

about the part where you claime that jews were miss treated in the mid east i dont really think so , cause everyone here was pretty much ok with jews , a lot of people had jewish friends here(egypt) and they played a normale part in the community ( ofcourse they were extreamily wealthy , most of them anyhow) .i live next to a synagouge(sp?) so they werent realigiously opressed or anything so i dont really see what you base this on!

[fernando]

1. Where the crusades an example of christian barbarity and cruelty or meerly a response to the Islamic expansion that was occuring in that era and would have continued for hundreds of years. (remember that at this time the muslims were within walking distance of Vienna and in control of spain) Given that most people in Europe did not want to convert to Islam and that the Islamic expansion would have continued for centuries was the crusades not a justified response? (from a medevil christian perspective

People didnt have to convert in the Arab empire back then, people were free to practise their religions freely, however if you did convert you are able to get better positions in society. In Christian Europe there was very little (well extualy no) tolerance for other religions, if you were different, you were to be tortured and then burned. But from a medevil Christian perspective everything to kill off all other religions or convert them was responsible. I mean if they had death camps like Auswitz back then this would have looked very different.


2. Why does everyone give so much air time to the fact that the palestinians are oppressed when they enjoy more democratic rights in isreal then there neighbors in Egypt and Jordon arent the Jordanians and Egyptians worth the same outcry? And although they are treated bad in Isreal which i dont agree with, haven't Jews in the middle east been treated bad for centuries? Why not feel sorry for them too.

The Palestinians have to nation of their own anymore, they dont want to be part of Israel or Egypt or Jordan, they want to have their own state called Palestinia.
The Jews have been treated bad also, but so have the Indians on the American continent, so have the Africans, so have many people in Asia...


3. We get very mad about the US torturing iraqis (and rightfully so) but we dont get mad about the Arabs torturing their own people, i am certain that more muslims have been tortured by muslims then by christians. I think that the outcry should be just as great if not greater.
I do get mad when Arabs torture their own people...I mean I agree with you how hypocrite it is to condone one's actions but not the other one's evnthough he is doing exact the same thing.
But the thing with them is, they openly come out for it, you know that they like to set their women on fire when they walk with somebody else on the street (oh wait that is Pakistan...not really Arab but still Islam)
The US presents itself to the world as a just and fair nation where torture is not allowed and punishes or judges other nations if they do so...but at the same time they are torturing people too, so that is what pisses me off more, the US has not right of condemning those other torturers, just because they are not pro US.

[abigratsass]

[/But the thing with them is, they openly come out for it, you know that they like to set their women on fire when they walk with somebody else on the street (oh wait that is Pakistan...not really Arab but still Islam)]

are you increadibly stupid! where the hell did you hear that people setr their wives on fire !!!!?!! even if iot is true which i seriously doubt why are you saying it in a way to imply that it actually has something to do with the islamic realgion !

[/they want to have their own state called Palestinia]
they dont want a state calles palestinia ! its palestine.....

[/ do get mad when Arabs torture their own people...I mean I agree with you how hypocrite it is to condone one's actions but not the other one's evnthough he is doing exact the same thing]

there isnt much hypocracy in that situation for the simple fact that the actuall people are the ones who condem torture anywhere and by anyone .
not the shadow peuppets placed by the american govermeant , they know there limits and they know they dont have the choice to talk about what americans do because basically with out american support they have a slightly smaller chance to survie in power acted the way they do

[Louis Pio]

Wifes are set on fire or attacked with acid in countries like Pakistan. The thing is that women are percived as lesser beings. Some of the reason for this can be found in islam (or rather the intepretation of it). But the main reason is in my oppinion the horrible conditions people live under and the way the bourgiosie then use islam to get their way and divert people's attention from the real issues at hand. It is indeed a question of socialism or barbarism.
Concerning Pakistan you can find some information here http://www.ptudc.org

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 04:10 PM
[/But the thing with them is, they openly come out for it, you know that they like to set their women on fire when they walk with somebody else on the street (oh wait that is Pakistan...not really Arab but still Islam)]

are you increadibly stupid! where the hell did you hear that people setr their wives on fire !!!!?!! even if iot is true which i seriously doubt why are you saying it in a way to imply that it actually has something to do with the islamic realgion !

[/they want to have their own state called Palestinia]
they dont want a state calles palestinia ! its palestine.....

[/ do get mad when Arabs torture their own people...I mean I agree with you how hypocrite it is to condone one's actions but not the other one's evnthough he is doing exact the same thing]

there isnt much hypocracy in that situation for the simple fact that the actuall people are the ones who condem torture anywhere and by anyone .
not the shadow peuppets placed by the american govermeant , they know there limits and they know they dont have the choice to talk about what americans do because basically with out american support they have a slightly smaller chance to survie in power acted the way they do
Women not set on fire? never been to Pakistan, it has the highest number of women dying from "kitchen accidents" :unsure:

Ok so I called it Palestina instead of Palestine...in dutch we say Palestina, oh I made a little mistake, now Im a complete moron :lol:

Huh??? yes people condone it..

The US government condones it, but they do it themselves and support it, isnt that hypocrite?

[cormacobear]

The Crusades did follow a period of remarkable Islamic expansion. The middle east had been a contended for between Roman and eastern empires more than any other region. Religion was used on both sides to legitimize their claim on the holy land. It was however a political war over territory. The same war that had been going on for 12 or 1300 years at that point. Both sides commited attrocities.

If you beleive their was no religious persecution in the early Islamic empires you're sadly mistaken. Christians were enslaved by the tens of thousands, Islam forbade the enslavement of fellow muslims. Put the two together and it is quite obviously forced conversion.

The Genisaries
The "benevolent Ottoman empire had a tax on christian families where christians families had their sons taken from them were enslaved, "brainwashed" forced to convert and made an elite killing machine used on the christian nations they had once been a part of.

Of course opression and human rights violations need to be condemned wherever they occur. I comment more frequently on the U.S. rather than Arab and other eastern nations policies, simply because I know more about U.S. policy over the last hundred years. It's virtually all in English and their policies have the greatest impact on the policies of Canada. Also I feel that their immense power makes them the greatest threat.

Christianity was a reletively benevolent religion for the first few hundred years also. However much like Islam is today it was corrupted by power hungry dictators, and easily perverted by religious zealots who used it as a tool to oppress a poorly educated society. Christianity has grown up dramatically since then. It had to be forced to by the followers of the faith, but it's happening. And I hope that with time wisdom will temper the Muslim faith so it is once again used as a means of understanding spirituality and not for cruelty and oppression.

[redstar2000]

The Crusades did follow a period of remarkable Islamic expansion.

Yes, an interval of several centuries again.

The initial wave of Muslim conquest was halted at the Battle of Tours (southern France) around 730CE.

After that, tiny Christian and Muslim "kingdoms" struggled for control of Spain...and the Muslims were generally on the defensive.

As I noted earlier, the only Muslim "expansion" around the time of the crusades consisted of "nibbling" at the edges of the decaying Byzantine Empire.


If you believe there was no religious persecution in the early Islamic empires, you're sadly mistaken. Christians were enslaved by the tens of thousands; Islam forbade the enslavement of fellow Muslims. Put the two together and it is quite obviously forced conversion.

I'm not aware of any verse in the Koran that forbids Muslims from enslaving other Muslims. But even if it exists, it was certainly ignored in practice...as there is plenty of documentary evidence that Muslims owned other Muslims, bought and sold them like any other slave, etc.

Christians and Jews were subjected to an "infidel tax"...though I don't think it was terribly burdensome; likewise, high positions in the government were generally reserved for Muslims only.

So there was an economic and a political benefit to converting to Islam...is that "persecution"?

Tell it to Karl Marx's father...who converted from Judaism to Lutheranism at the beginning of the 19th century for reasons of business.


The "benevolent" Ottoman Empire had a tax on Christian families where Christian families had their sons taken from them, were enslaved, "brainwashed", forced to convert and made [into] an elite killing machine used on the Christian nations they had once been a part of.

A caricature. Yes, the Turks had a "son" tax on the Christian lands they had conquered in southeastern Europe (it didn't apply to Christians in the Middle East or North Africa). It was, in a way, a kind of military conscription.

The reason for this "custom" had to do with the desire of the ruler for an armed force that would be directly loyal to him (and not to other Turkish nobles).

They were indeed, formally, "slaves" to the ruler...but that happened to be one of the highest status positions available. They received the best military training that the empire could manage, the best provisions, weapons, etc. The most talented (or luckiest) were advanced to positions of command and even into the upper levels of the government itself.

And they were indeed used against both rebellions in the European portion of the empire as well as campaigns to further expand the empire (beneath the walls of Vienna, for example).

No one with any sense would call the Ottoman Empire "benevolent" -- all of the regimes of that era would strike us as barbaric and cruel.

But "persecution" of Christians? Or Jews?

It didn't happen.

The record shows that Christians have persecuted other Christians with a zeal and a brutality that far exceeds anything found in the history of Islam.


Christianity was a relatively benevolent religion for the first few hundred years also.

It's good that you slipped in that word "relatively"...but even that's disputable.

By the time the Christians start showing up in any numbers according to the Roman records (c.275CE), they are already persecuting each other (by stoning) for "heresy". Somehow, the worshipers of Jupiter and Isis, for example, managed to avoid street riots in the name of "spirituality".


However, much like Islam is today, it was corrupted by power hungry dictators, and easily perverted by religious zealots who used it as a tool to oppress a poorly educated society.

Religion does not have to be "corrupted" or "perverted" for this purpose...it's always "the right tool for the job".


Christianity has grown up dramatically since then. It had to be forced to by the followers of the faith, but it's happening.

In your dreams! Christianity has learned to speak more diplomatically than it used to (because it's not as strong as it once was)...but where it can, it acts just as cruelly as it always did.

Cf. the war on drugs.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Spartacus2002]

true chirtianity has never acted violently while the perversion of it that exist today most certainly would act violent if it could get away with it, but they are no more chistian then hitler was socialist because he called himself a national socialist. and one thing i want you to understand, the points i brought up by someone i met i dont trulyhave alot of backing for them either way but this person ussaully is reliable, i know that palestinians are treated awfully but what i heard was that they have voting rights or something but that doesent seem right to me...

[fernando]

What is true Christianity...I mean the Dominicans (Conquistadores) killed thousands of Aztecs, Mayans, Incas and many other indiginious people of Latin America in the name of God.