let's start from the beginning - the truth about the israeli [Archive]

Blasphemy

12th May 2002, 13:39

okay, so before we start (or continue) making accusations, let's look at this from the beginning.

in 1947, the UN voted in favour of a partition plan, which divides the land of israel to a jewish and a palestinian state. the jews, in an effort to prevent an armed encounter with the arabs, accepted the miserable partition plan. the arabs, on the other hand, did not want to see the jews on the land, so they rejected the plan, and declared war on Israel a day after Ben-Gurion declared it to be a state.

and so, the War of Independance began. during the war, israeli occupied territories, which it used to develope itself.

in 1967, another arab military offensive took place, and israel was attacked by 7 arab armies. israel, in the greatest military triumph of all times, managed to defeat the arab armies in 6 days. israeli occupied the west bank (judea and samaria) from the jordanians and the sinai penninsula and the gaza strip from the egyptians.

The israeli government expected Jordan and Egypt to offer peace in returned for the territories occupied. in 1977, israel returned the Sinai Penninsula to the egyptians and a peace treaty was signed. the gaza strip remained in Israeli hands. the jordanians, even in 1993, did not want the west bank back.

so let's draw conclusions until now - israel never started a military offensive in order to occupy territories. it were always the arabs who did it, and they always failed.

yassir arafat's goal, as the head of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, is to free the occupied territories from the israelis, and found a liberated palestinian state there. he used, and still uses, unconventional power to achieve his goal. he promotes terrorism and funds terrorist organization in order to kill defenceless israeli civilians.

PM Ariel Sharon is no lamb as well. in Sabra and Shatila he was indirectly responsible for the death of thousands of palestinian refugees. now, as PM, he refuses to start any diplomatic negotiations, just like arafat refuses to abandon the path of terrorism.

the occupation is immoral, corrupting and unjust. terrorism, by its very essence, is evil. israel has adopted occupation, while the palestinians adopted terrorism (of course, i refer to the israeli government and the palestinian authority, and not to the civilians). so no one here is innocent. both are EQUALLY GUILTY.

by the way, the leftist demonstartion yesterday in tel aviv was a great success. a quarter of a million people swarmed Rabin Square and protested against the occupation. it was amazing!!!

peace out.

Dhul Fiqar

12th May 2002, 14:36

There some factual errors in your post, but the omissions are more important.
Why not give us some background on how the Jews used terrorism to achieve their goals? I seem to recall a certain hotel in Jerusalem being blown up in a terrorist attack purpotrated by your beloved former Prime Minister.

It may be a question of semantics and sorry if this sounds like nitpicking, but the first bullets in the 1967 war were fired by Israelis after aggressive military posturing by Egypt and their allies. Israel would certainly have been attacked had they not pre-empted it, but the fact remains that they were not attacked because they didn't give them a chance to (which is obviously quite understandable).

As for the "miserable" partition plan, I hope you know that you were given 50% of land that belonged entirely to Arabs at the time. That's about 50% more than any nation would be willing to give to another today.

Lastly, your post is remarkably balanced, and I can tell you're an intelligent person on the left of Israeli politics. I just hate to think that even people like you are given false facts by the media, and never allowed to think about the terrorism that was used to develop your own state. The Palestinians are using terrorism to achieve statehood because they saw it work for the Israelis.

--- G. Raven

I hope we can keep this civil, because the last thing I want to do is argue in a nasty way, in fact I think I'll try to stay out of any heated arguments in the future. It's bad for my health :)

Menshevik

12th May 2002, 16:07

Many people swear that the Palestinians left their homes on their own free will. Some claim it is because the Palestinians believed the Arab armies would defeat the Israelis. In reality, they were forced off their land by terror tactics used by the Israelis--that's going to cause some animosity without a doubt.

Derar

12th May 2002, 16:10

That post is pure bullshit ....

They had to accept the miserable plan ????

1. They shouldnt have been given not even 1 cm cube of that land , coz they were not their land .
2. Britain at that time was the one that put the jews in palestine , they pressed on the UN to make the partician plan , and i bet u heard about the belfor promise !!
3.they didnt accept shit , as soon as they got in palestine , they started massacring the residents , destroying schools and shops , and kicking ppl out of their houses , and giving them to other zionists , they drove 700 thousand ppl out of their homeland .....

and all that crap with the arab isreali wars , every single war was started by israel , by trying to capture more arab land , in the 6 days war , there were only 2 armies that attacked israel after they started threatnin the arab neighboring countries , only syria and egypt had enough army to attack israel , and jordan was there only on defense .......
Israel's army was almost crushed , it had suffered the worst casualty in the middle east history , but unfortunately The US Interfered , ( it was pres. carter at that time , not sure ) and came with tons of tanks and planes to help their dogs .....

Do u know what methods israel used in that war ?
They'd put captured syrian and egyptian soldiers on their tanks so the egyptian planes wouldnt fire on them ......
Plus Huge pressure was put by the US on egypt , which made the egyptian president change his mind , and ask the egyptian army to drive back , leaving the syrian army alone in the battle field .........

I really hope the United Arab Army would have crushed the israeli army to the ground , they could ...... but then the US had to help their dogs again !!!

deimos

12th May 2002, 16:29

Both are right, derar and blasphemy.Israe would have lost the war if the Americans hadn't suppported them with tons of tanks and, especially, planes.But the palestinians made mistakes too.I tolerate, i support every terror attack on soldiers or people who work in the army or on industrialfacilities used for the production of tanks or other weapons.But i think that every terror attack on civilians should be sentenced.Even when the assasins were driven out from their homes etc.. Remember Ghandi:
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind!

Blasphemy

12th May 2002, 16:40

there were three jewish underground organizations which fought the british and the palestinians to gain independance.
the biggest one, the Haganah, used legitimate methods of war in order to achieve their goals.
the two smaller organizations - the Etzel (which consisted of about 600 members) and the Lechy (which consisted of about 60 members) - did use terrorism. but they only represented a SMALL FRACTION of the population (less than 700 hundred all together).
palestinians were not driven off their lands, they escaped when the jewish underground arrived.

Dhul Fiqar

12th May 2002, 17:25

They "escaped"?? What like, the jews who "escaped" from the Nazis, so they weren't driven from their homes, just "escaped"?

And your understanding of the history of zionist terrorist organization is quite different from the non-Israeli sources I've read.

--- G. Raven

Blasphemy

12th May 2002, 20:53

Dhul Fiqar, my brother, no arabs were forced off their land as far as i know (and no, i am not blinded by my government, i read books which were not written by jews).

Zionists are not evil. i am a zionist, i belive the jewish people deserve a homeland, and i recognize the palestinians' right for a homeland as well. this land which i live in can hold two states - israel and palestine. both are here to stay, so fighting will not lead to peace. fighting breeds hate, which breeds fighting which breeds hate (you see the pattern here...). peace breeds prosperity.

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 21:25

i wonder why the arabs would all of a sudden start to hate jews, they are the same damn people, and throught history the only religion that did not repress the jews was islam, the muslims and jews lived in harmony in the area of palestine, it was the zionist american who called himself jewish that came to the country and created the tension, no race deserves a homeland, we are all people and we are to share the world equaly, the jews should have been allowed to return to their native countries, the west didnt fix anything hitler did, they just threw the jewish people into someone elses home and said here this is your country now, i mean ofcourse there was going to be conflict, think about it, what would you do if someone came into your house and said half of this is mine now.

just stare, and live the nightmare

Menshevik

12th May 2002, 22:32

Muslims have always practiced religious tolerance, but like all religions, Islam professes itself to be the one true religion. Jews and Christians were allowed to coexist in the Land of Islam, but they were not treated as equals to other Muslims.

LeonardoDaVinci

13th May 2002, 00:05

Blasphemy my friend, you obviously have a very distorted concept of history.

First of all, the state of Israel was founded in 1948, following the catastrophe that overtook European Jewry in the 1930s and 1940s, and which culminated in the extermination of 6 million Jews in the Nazi concentration camps. The Zionist movement was able to channel the despondency felt by Jews at what had happened behind a perspective for creating a separate Jewish state through the partition of Palestine, which had been controlled by Britain since 1917. A Jewish state would build, it was claimed, a just and democratic haven for a people who had faced discrimination and oppression for centuries. It would be a state defined uniquely, not in geopolitical terms, but by religion. Its doors would be open to all who subscribed to Judaism.

The formation of such a state inside Palestine, a country where Jews were in the minority, inevitably led to what today would be called ethnic cleansing. Zionism's central slogan was: “A land without people for a people without land.” Thus the very foundation of the state was based on
profoundly undemocratic principles: the denial of the rights of non-Jews already living there. It would also sanction control by religious authorities, something that modern states had rejected and overthrown centuries ago.

The sympathy felt throughout the world for the plight of the Jews following World War Two lent support for the creation of such a state. In addition, the major powers, and particularly the United States, saw the establishment of Israel as a means of enhancing their own strategic interests in the region, or at least blocking those of Britain, which was then the dominant power in the Middle East. As a result, in November 1947, the Zionists were successful in persuading the United Nations General Assembly —to the fury of the Arab world—to vote for the partition of Palestine into two states: one Palestinian and one Jewish.

flames of the flag

13th May 2002, 00:56

thanks guys, thank you for clearing up the history of this conflict, before i knew all that stuff i had no opinion on the situation. I get the impression that both sides are eqaully guilty, so now we just need to stop them. but feel free to prove me wrong because i still feel relatively ignorant on the situation.

Blasphemy

13th May 2002, 14:20

the state of israel is a necessity in order to prevent another holocaust from occuring. the jewish people suffered from discrimination throughout the ages (even under islamic reign), and israel serves as a refuge. the end of israel will be the end of the jewish people around the world.

the slogan the zionists used at that time IS racist. i cannot argue with that, and i have intention of trying. but the first israeli prime minister, David Ben Gurion, acknowledged the palestinians' right for a homeland, while the palestinians didn't recognized the jews' right for a homeland.

the israeli public nowadays supports a palestinian state (64% according to friday's survey published in Yedioth Aharonot). the public wants peace. on saturday, a quarter of a million people swarmed Rabin Square in Tel Aviv and demanded to put an end to the occupation, the jewish settlements in the territories, and terrorism.

LeonardoDaVinci

13th May 2002, 19:05

Dear Blaspemy, I am sure that there are a lot of enlightened and peace seeking Israelis just like yourself. However, while you are claiming that the majority of Israelis support a viable palestinian state, the Likud party just passed a vote which rejects the establishment of a palestinian state.

Furthermore, the jews have flourished economically and culturally under the Islamic empire in Spain (Andalucia). They were not subjected to the pogroms that were the lot of jewish people all over europe and in fact identified with the andalucian (sephradic as the jews called it) way of life more than any other culture that existed at the time. They had the same rights as their muslim counterparts and in fact, after the forces of Ferdinand and Isabel conquered the last muslim stronghold in spain (Carthage I believe) mann of them moved to the Ottoman Empire.

also, I believe that the geo-political situation in europe is rather different now than back then, Jews are no longer an oppressed people. And thus, to claim that without a jewish homeland, jews could be persecuted once more is a very lame argument if you don't mind me saying. It would be the same as saying that black people should all leave europe and america and establish thier own state in Mexico just in case they are enslaved by the europeans and americans once more. And any mexicans who are not willing to conform will either be exiled, or forced to live as a stranger in their own homeland.

Reuben

13th May 2002, 19:24

although blacks and jews are no longer legally persecuted, they still, particularly in europe suffer attacks and persecution.

Having said that I am a hell of a lot safer, living as a member of the jewish diaspora in britain, than I would be in my israeli 'homeland'

I must congratulate oyou on your amzing historical knowledge. are you jewish or do you jusst know a lot about jewish history?

Blasphemy

13th May 2002, 19:25

1. let's be accurate - the likud CENTER passed a decision against a palestinian state. the center consists of 2000 members, desiganted by politicians, do not represent the likud's voters.

2. the jews under islamic reign in andalucia did flourish. i cannot argue with that. even in arab countries today the jews are not persecuted by the regime. but they WERE persecuted by other regimes throughout the years. if a jewish state had existed during the 1930s, the holocaust would have never started.

LeonardoDaVinci

13th May 2002, 19:42

Thank you comrade Reuben. No I am not Jewish, but I just like to read a lot about history, especially that of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

deimos

14th May 2002, 17:22

the first islamic ideology said that you should let people from other religions into your country because you can learn from them.But like all the other religions the islam went crazy has he got more powerful.

deimos

14th May 2002, 17:32

sorry, didn't recognize that this thread has 2 pages.......

15th May 2002, 00:21

OK. So let me get this staight because I am not too knowledgable on the situation.

Because of the Holocaust, the Jewish people were allowed a land of their own. The land picked happened to be controlled by the British at the time (Palestine). So when British rule ended, the area was divided in half, Palestine and Israel (1947). This was so the Jews would have a land free for all Jews to come to if another Holocaust happened? The land for Israel was taken from the Palestinians by the UN?

This is my understanding so far. Am I right? What I don't get is why Palestine? How can one group take 50% of somebody else's land just because they don't have a land?

Also--if the state of Israel didn't exist there would be the potential for another Holocaust? This I don't really get.

j

Blasphemy

15th May 2002, 07:16

is anyone aware of the fact that the palestinians never ruled the land?

Blasphemy

15th May 2002, 08:03

okay, this didn't sound right.... forget i wrote that...

j, jews were persecuted through out history all the time. the state of israel serves as a refuge to the jews. it protects them in time of need, when they are opressed by the government. that is why a jewish state is a necessity.

Derar

15th May 2002, 10:51

So u mean its alright to take someone elses land , and make a refugee camp !!

And not only that , u grow more powerful , u kick the original residents , u keep staeling more land , till u have now more than 70 % of it !!

Blasphemy

15th May 2002, 12:25

israel did not steal the land! the land was occupied during wars which the arabs started!

Derar

15th May 2002, 13:22

stop ur fucking zionist bullshit ....... Israel is the source of all trouble in the middle east , israel is the source of death and poverty for the palestinians , and every single war was started by the zionist blood sucking israelis.....

guerrillaradio

15th May 2002, 13:50

Quote: from Derar on 1:22 pm on May 15, 2002
stop ur fucking zionist bullshit ....... Israel is the source of all trouble in the middle east , israel is the source of death and poverty for the palestinians , and every single war was started by the zionist blood sucking israelis.....

Do you ever wonder why some people don't debate with you??

Blasphemy

15th May 2002, 17:02

israel never instigated a war. 1948, 1967 and 1973 were all started by the arabs. so stop complaining israel occupied the land, because it didn't start the war.

do you know why israel lost so many soldiers in the 1973 war? because PM Golda Meir didn't want to mobilize forces so it won't be israel who started the war.

Derar

15th May 2002, 17:23

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 5:50 pm on May 15, 2002

Quote: from Derar on 1:22 pm on May 15, 2002
stop ur fucking zionist bullshit ....... Israel is the source of all trouble in the middle east , israel is the source of death and poverty for the palestinians , and every single war was started by the zionist blood sucking israelis.....

Do you ever wonder why some people don't debate with you??

well well well , onother Zionist supporter on the board ..... im glad i made u show ur ugly face , and lots of other comrades on the board know that ...

Blasphemy

15th May 2002, 18:38

well derar, i think we can sum up that you are an idiot. he said people can't debate with you because you tell out slogans instead of giving relevant argument! stop accusing people all the time like a fucking fool!

Menshevik

15th May 2002, 21:06

Derar, what do you think should happen to Israel?

Derar

15th May 2002, 21:42

First of all , Blashphemy , i never called u any names , though u r a one mutherfucking racist zionist ....... which shows that u r the idiot ....... fucking racist shit

And For Menshevik , we have lots and lots of solutions that israel doesnt like , like deploying UN forces , which will protect the palestinians from the israeli massacres , dont want that ? fine , then just give palestine their fucking independence , a normal country with an army , and their own right to do whatever they want , bring back the refugees or not .........

Thats the problem , they debate about the palestinians refugee's right to return while they r the ones that kicked them out , and it's not even their fucking land !!!

Reuben

15th May 2002, 21:49

Quote: from Derar on 5:23 pm on May 15, 2002

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 5:50 pm on May 15, 2002

Quote: from Derar on 1:22 pm on May 15, 2002
stop ur fucking zionist bullshit ....... Israel is the source of all trouble in the middle east , israel is the source of death and poverty for the palestinians , and every single war was started by the zionist blood sucking israelis.....

Do you ever wonder why some people don't debate with you??

well well well , onother Zionist supporter on the board ..... im glad i made u show ur ugly face , and lots of other comrades on the board know that ...

As much as I agree with your opposition to zionism you are sounding more and morel ike mccarthy with zionist instead of communist. Anyone stands up to your aggresion and tactics of debate (which I myself have no judgement on) and they must be a zionist.

Give it a rest

Derar

15th May 2002, 21:54

i just cant stand someone supporting israel in any way , i've been starting to loose my temper , all that i've read , all that i've heard , all that i've saw ......... makes me too angry , maybe angry in a bad way ..... but i still cant get how someone can support a country like israel !

16th May 2002, 01:51

So it all comes back to my orginal questions.

Who had the land before the Palestinians and the Israelis? Was it Britain? If it was, who had it before those imperialist pigs took it?

If it was Palestinian land, why do the Israelis get a piece of it? That would be like me going into your house and taking a room because I'm scared I'll get hurt (somehow, i dont know)at my own house. Then fighting constantly for the fact that I have a right to that room.

Is that a bad analogy? Somebody help me out here.

Also, why do the Israelis have a right to the land called Israel?

j

p.s.-I'm not trying to be a dick or anti-semite here but I just don't understand the history of the whole thing. Someone help me out??

Blasphemy

16th May 2002, 08:01

"First of all , Blashphemy , i never called u any names , though u r a one mutherfucking racist zionist ....... which shows that u r the idiot ....... fucking racist shit"

zionism and racism are not the same thing, as i clarified in the beginning. zionists are not racist, not all of them at least. i know i'm not... i don't think that because i'm a zionist, i have to be a racist as well.

living in peace is not that hard, actually. let's be practical, the jews are not going to leave israel. so let's talk about what can be done, and what should be done...

a palestinian state in the west bank and the gaza strip has to be founded. a clear border between palestine and israel has to be drawn, and the two nations have to be totally seperated from each other. israel should help the palestinians rehabilitate the financial situation (which is rotten because all the money goes to arafat and to the terrorist organizations, and almost nothing to the people). israel should also help the palestinians form an army, and unarm all the terrorist organizations. israel will help the palestininas with water until they are able to build water purifiers and stand on their own.
this kind of cooperations can lead to the betternment of both people. israel won't spend all its money on occupying the territrories, and the palestinians won't spend all their money on building bombs....

LeonardoDaVinci

16th May 2002, 13:01

Quote: from Blasphemy on 7:25 pm on May 13, 2002
1. let's be accurate - the likud CENTER passed a decision against a palestinian state. the center consists of 2000 members, desiganted by politicians, do not represent the likud's voters.

One thing which I have always found baffling is how the Israeli population always claims to be pursuing peace and instead points the finger at the government whenever asked about the deplorable treatment of the palestinians. Let me get this straight. Isn't Israel supposedly a democracy? If they truly are seeking peace why do they carry on voting for one war criminal after the other (Menachem, Shamir, Sharon..etc)?

I do not doubt that there are many inside Israel who are truly seeking peace. But I do doubt very much that they have any political leverage within the government.

Blasphemy

16th May 2002, 13:07

sharon was elected because barak failed. shamir was not elected, peres was elected but because he wasn't able to form a coalition, he had to ask shamir to join him, and there was a rotations. i have no idea why you mentioned Begin. he made peace....
please, don't blame me for the stuipidity of the people.

LeonardoDaVinci

16th May 2002, 13:16

Oh, so now it is stupidity of the people! And the reason why I mentioned Menachem Begin because of his direct involvement in the Deir Yassin Massacre.

Dear Blasphemy, if you are a peace seeking activist then I truly respect that. However, can I suggest that you view the history of the conflict more objectively, as I believe that your zionist views (I'm not calling you that, you claim to be one) are extremely vague and one sided. Remember the saying "he who knows only his side of the argument knows little of that."

Blasphemy

16th May 2002, 13:22

not all zionists are racists! i'm not a racist, yet, i'm a zionist. i don't think zionism is a bad word. i just belive that israel must exist in order to protect the jews. you can argue with that, but you won't change my mind.
i'm can see both sides of the story, but i think you can't. you don't see the jewish sides. after 6 million jews were massacred in europe, what do you expect them to do? stay there, where they have no home and basically nothing?

Che Vive

16th May 2002, 13:29

just because they were prosecuted doesnt givee theem the right to take the palestinians land,kick them out of it,and declare it as their country.the israelis have no right to the land of palestine.

LeonardoDaVinci

16th May 2002, 13:30

Who called you RACIST?????

Blasphemy

16th May 2002, 13:35

most of the people here compare zionism to racism. i am a zionist, but not a racist.

Edelweiss

16th May 2002, 23:33

As much as I agree with your opposition to zionism you are sounding more and morel ike mccarthy with zionist instead of communist. Anyone stands up to your aggresion and tactics of debate (which I myself have no judgement on) and they must be a zionist.

Give it a rest

Very good comparison, I agree. Derar, stop the insults. If you would be attacking a Sharon supporter I wouldn't care, but I don't think that Blasphemy is deserving your hatred.

Derar

17th May 2002, 01:39

why dont u go back in this post , and others about palestine , and see that im not the only one who is attacking this zionist blasphemy , plus i never insulted him till he insulted me ,

Read posts by El-che , Fabi , Da-natural , Che y marijuana , Dhul Fiqar , Xenoth , Red Revolutionary , LeonardoDavinci .......

Sorry to dissapoint u malte , but ppl here dont really like Zionists .......

Instead of attacking me , and banning other ppl off this board , why dont u put some effort to ban the zionists on this board , or just restrict them to the S vs. C forum , or maybe they r not just too racist for u , while lots of others are !!!

guerrillaradio

17th May 2002, 09:31

Quote: from Derar on 5:23 pm on May 15, 2002
well well well , onother Zionist supporter on the board...

If you'd ever bothered to read any of my posts instead of insulting me then you'd know that I am also anti-Zionist. I am also anti-suicide bombers (they're not fucking martyrs). However, I am not anti-Semitic, which is probably why you dislike me so much.

And banning Zionists would be stupid. As long as they don't resort to blatant anti-Palestinism (which is where MitRS went wrong), then they should be allowed to stay. Although I guess it's not an issue now that Blasphemy's on his way out.