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Morpheus
21st August 2004, 06:32
KARL MARX'S THEORY OF CAPITAL
by Ron Tabor

Part 1 (http://www.utopianmag.com/archives/aug2000/pdf/theoryofcap.pdf)
Part 2 (http://www.utopianmag.com/archives/dec2001/marxistcritique.pdf)

Marxism claims to be the outlook (the true interests and the natural point of view) of the international working class, the laboring class created by capitalism that owns no property except its ability to work, its labor-power. By virtue of this, Marxism believes it is both the true, scientific theory of history and the program for the liberation of humanity. What Karl Marx and his cothinker, Friedrich Engels, claimed to have done was to discover the underlying logic of history that would necessarily result in the establishment, through a working class revolution, of human freedom, embodied in the classless and stateless society they called communism.

Despite these claims, revolutions led by Marxists have not led to the creation of the communism that Marx and Engels envisioned, nor even to the dictatorship of the proletariat they predicted and advocated as the transition to socialism, which they called the first stage of communist society. Instead, such revolutions have resulted in totalitarian regimes in which bureaucratic elites have ruled over the working class and other social strata in the name of the workers. These systems I believe can best be described as state capitalism.

To be sure, the systems that emerged from Marxist revolutions were/are in many respects the antithesis of Marx and Engels' vision of communist society. But as I see it, these outcomes were not the result of mistakes by Marxists or of unexpected “objective conditions,” as Trotskyists and other Marxists critical of Communist societies contend. They flow from the underlying logic of Marxism itself. Thus, instead of being the perversion or negation of Marxism, these regimes represent its true meaning.

PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF MARXISM

I did not always see the question this way. For many years, I was a committed Marxist, a firm believer in its validity and deeply steeped in its theoretical assumptions. In addition to confirming my moral outrage at the barbarity of contemporary society, Marxism's analysis of capitalism and its theory of history seemed to me to explain a great many things in a scientific way. They did so far better, in any case, than the alternative theories, which struck me as uninformative, blatantly apologetic of capitalism or just plain stupid.

For much of this period, I was involved with organizations, particularly the Revolutionary Socialist League, that claimed to defend the libertarian vision of Marx and Engels and to oppose Communist-ruled societies as perversions of that ideal. Yet, as a result of attempting to understand how such terrible social systems could have arisen from such a well-intentioned worldview, I came to the conclusion that Marxism itself was a major cause of the establishment of such totalitarian regimes.

I am therefore no longer a Marxist, although Marxism has had a major impact on my thinking, including, hopefully, my ability to analyze it. But unlike many other former Marxists, I have not embraced capitalism. I still consider modern industrial society, despite its economic, social and scientific achievements, to be a brutal social system that condemns millions of people to poverty, disease and premature death and a breeding ground of racism, sexism, ecological destruction, fascism and war. Consequently, I continue to believe in the necessity of a radical social transformation to replace global capitalism with a democratic, egalitarian and cooperative society.

Yet, as a result of my reevaluation of Marxism, I have also come to the conclusion that a truly revolutionary anti-elitist program is only possible within the framework of anarchism, that is, a radical liberatory and egalitarian outlook that stresses decentralization, direct democracy and cooperation, and that explicitly rejects the use of the state as a vehicle to promote its goals.

Although it may seem that Marxism today is an insignificant social factor and likely to remain so, I believe this is temporary. Sooner or later, struggles against capitalism's injustices will intensify, and Marxism and Marxist organizations, or something very much like them, will be revived. For this reason, I think it is crucial that radicals who remain committed to libertarian and egalitarian ideals understand both the content of Marxism and its social significance.

In the following article and another which will appear in a later issue of this journal, I will attempt to lay out how I now understand Marxism, through an examination of the centerpiece of the Marxian world view, Marx's analysis of capitalism. I want to make it clear here that I do not claim to be proving my case. In my opinion, most of the questions involved cannot be proved or disproved (which is part of my argument against Marxism). What I am trying to do is put forward an interpretation of what Marxism is and why it has led to the results it has. If this analysis helps to explain Marxism and its historical outcomes, it will have served its purpose.

A SUMMARYOF MY ARGUMENT

I will present my overall argument first.

1. Marxism is a philosophical worldview, a speculative interpretation of the world. By this I mean that it embodies a set of beliefs about such “deep” questions as the nature of the universe and human beings' place in it, the meaning and goal of history, the origin of human consciousness and the accuracy of our knowledge, the definition of freedom and how it can be achieved. These issues have been discussed and debated by philosophers and others for thousands of years, but neither by Marx's time nor by ours have these issues been settled—proved or disproved—by science (or anything else). Nor, in my view, can they ever be resolved. They are ultimately matters of judgment and choice for every human being.

2. Despite the fact that his theory is philosophical in the sense described, Marx presents it as scientific, as if it has been verified in the same way that the accepted theories of physics, biology and other realms of scientific inquiry have been. Although it has its own philosophical presuppositions, science is an open process: it is a cooperative endeavor, occurring over time and space, that involves many individuals from different nations and cultures who hold a variety of religious and philosophical beliefs. (This cooperation is one of the reasons it is successful.) It also entails accepted rules of procedure and the continual testing of its data, methods, hypotheses and theories. These serve to create, at any given time, a broad level of acceptance of its dominant theories and to provide the means by which new theories may challenge and possibly replace the old.

In contrast, Marxism is a closed system whose practitioners share the same philosophical credo. It has no standardized rules of procedure, and despite its assertion that it is the “unity of theory and practice,” never allows itself to be tested. (Whatever the historical results of Marxism, those Marxists who remain committed to it exonerate it. Those who judge it a failure cease being Marxists.) Moreover, its discussions usually resemble theological debates which, where Marxists have had the means to do so, have often been decided in blood. Stripped of its pretenses, Marxism's claim to be scientific is little more than an attempt to give it an aura of authority that it would not otherwise possess.

3. Although Marxism is not scientific, it makes a convincing case that it is, at least to enough people over the years to have made it a historically significant force. In addition to presenting a plausible theory of history, its elaborate critique of capitalism and its call to overthrow it make Marxism particularly attractive to middle class intellectuals and others of intellectual bent who are already disturbed about the injustices of contemporary society.

4. The claim that Marxism is scientific rests to a considerable degree on Marx's analysis of capitalism, particularly as elaborated in his magnum opus, Capital. In addition to presenting an analysis of the dynamics of the capitalist economic system, Marx's work is meant to demonstrate what Marxists call the “materialist basis” for socialism. Specifically, it is intended to show that capitalism contains tendencies that will create the social conditions that will render the socialist revolution, as Marx describes it, inevitable.

(Despite Marx and Engels' frequent use of such terms as “inevitable” and “necessary,” Marxists have continually discussed whether socialism/communism is inevitable and whether Marx and Engels thought it was. To avoid futile debates on this issue, let me say here that I believe my analysis of Marxism applies both to the belief that socialism is inevitable as well as to the view that it is highly probable.)

5. Despite the prodigious labor involved in its production, despite the fact that it contains reasonable explanations of a great many aspects of capitalism and despite its vast scholarly apparatus, Marx's analysis of capital, like the rest of his theory, is a philosophical construct, not a scientific theory. Rather than being an objective confirmation of his broader worldview, it is infused throughout with the philosophic assumptions and precepts of that outlook.

6. Despite making many assumptions and employing procedures that further his conclusions, Marx does not prove his case. What he does do, in a manner of speaking, is to find what he's looking for. Steeped in the Idealist philosophy of G. W. F. Hegel, Marx searched for, and thought he found, human freedom as an immanent principle embedded in the nature of humanity and in the structure of human history and society.

7. In addition to representing a body of theory, Marxism insists that it is a guide to revolutionary action. Beyond the general demand that Marxists organize the workers to overthrow capitalism, it mandates that specific measures be taken by revolutionaries should they be in a position to do so. These include the establishment of a dictatorial state, the nationalization of all property in its hands and the repression of all those who resist. When carried out, such measures lead to the establishment of a totalitarian society.

8. Rather than representing the outlook of the proletariat and the path to freedom, Marxism can best be understood as an ideology that expresses the aspirations of certain socially-concerned intellectuals and others to reorganize and rule society according to their values. Rightly offended by the inequities of global capitalism, such people are attracted to a worldview that promises to replace it with what they see as a rational, just and truly democratic industrial system, one in which private property and social classes have been eliminated, and economic production and distribution are carried out according to a conscious, scientific plan rather than by means of the market.

9. Like all programs advocating an ideal society, Marxism contains an elitist potential. Believing itself to be the truth, it posits its vision as the only truly rational society and its strategy as the only way to achieve it. It simultaneously assumes that the purported agents of the socialist revolution, the working class, will automatically come to agree with it. It thus defines away the possibility of a conflict between the Marxist program and the desires and interests of those it claims to represent.

10. The elitist potential of Marxism becomes actual when, after a successful revolution or some other event that enables them to assume power, Marxist revolutionaries, pursuing the strategy prescribed by their theory, set up a centralized state they call and believe to be the dictatorship of the proletariat. They then have both the opportunity and the power to impose their vision on the rest of society, including the workers. When the workers (or anyone else) resist, they are defined as suffering from “false consciousness” (or just plain “counterrevolutionary”), and repressed.

11. Generally speaking, Marxists do not recognize the elitism entailed in their worldview. Trapped in the presuppositions of Marxism, they honestly believe that the revolution they seek to lead will eventually result in a stateless and classless society—the true liberation of humanity—or at least in a society far more efficient, just and democratic than capitalism. It is precisely this delusion that gives them the moral fervor and self-discipline to carry out the Marxist program and the repressive measures it mandates.

12. Therefore, although Marx claimed that his worldview would liberate humanity, the logic of his program is to recreate and reinforce the relations of domination and oppression he claimed to have transcended.

The seeds of the historical results of Marxism can be seen in Marxist theory if one looks beneath the surface. This includes Marx's theory of capital, which, surprisingly, has often been held up by anarchists and other anti-Marxist radicals as a convincing critique of capitalism, somehow independent of the authoritarian content of the rest of the Marxian worldview. It will be the purpose of this article and its companion to demonstrate the erroneousness of this view.

Part 1 (http://www.utopianmag.com/archives/aug2000/pdf/theoryofcap.pdf)
Part 2 (http://www.utopianmag.com/archives/dec2001/marxistcritique.pdf)

redstar2000
21st August 2004, 15:43
I will leave the article itself (in fucking .pdf format) to those with broadband and a 34-inch monitor to deal with. The inventor of the .pdf format should be taken out and shot! How's that for "Marxist totalitarianism"? :lol:

But the introduction is bad enough...so let's have a look.


...revolutions led by Marxists have not led to the creation of the communism that Marx and Engels envisioned, nor even to the dictatorship of the proletariat they predicted and advocated as the transition to socialism, which they called the first stage of communist society. Instead, such revolutions have resulted in totalitarian regimes in which bureaucratic elites have ruled over the working class and other social strata in the name of the workers. These systems I believe can best be described as state capitalism.

"State-monopoly capitalism" might be a more precise description.

"Revolutions led by Marxists" should properly read "revolutions led by Leninists".

The author is one who accepts the Leninist claim to be "the Marxism of the 20th century" as legitimate.

Once you conflate Marxism and Leninism, then you can freely assert that anything done by the Leninists was "pre-figured" or even "inspired" by Marx.

Why is such a conflation simply out of the question?

1. In the Marxist paradigm, proletarian revolution begins in the most advanced capitalist countries...where all the productive potential of capitalism has been exhausted and there is a "general crisis" of the system. There is no question of such revolutions beginning in backward, semi-feudal countries like Russia or China -- if it is attempted, the consequence will be "barracks communism"...an equality of misery.

2. In the Marxist paradigm, the masses are the "motor force" of the revolution...not a "vanguard" of self-designated leaders. The modern conception of the Leninist party (since 1917) -- a tightly organized and well-disciplined "officer corps" or "general staff" of the proletariat is an anti-Marxist innovation. The idea of proletarian revolution as "an act of will" on the part of an "enlightened minority" is idealist, not Marxist.


To be sure, the systems that emerged from Marxist revolutions were/are in many respects the antithesis of Marx and Engels' vision of communist society. But as I see it, these outcomes were not the result of mistakes by Marxists or of unexpected "objective conditions," as Trotskyists and other Marxists critical of Communist societies contend. They flow from the underlying logic of Marxism itself. Thus, instead of being the perversion or negation of Marxism, these regimes represent its true meaning.

More confusion.

First, inspite of saying that he wants to call Russia, China, etc. "state capitalist", he then turns right around and calls them "communist societies" -- presumably so he can lay the "blame" at Marx's feet.

Secondly, trying to make a proletarian revolution in countries dominated by the peasantry is indeed a rather large "mistake" for anyone purporting to be a "Marxist" to make.

And thirdly, the objective conditions in those societies were not "unexpected", they were ignored!


Yet, as a result of attempting to understand how such terrible social systems could have arisen from such a well-intentioned worldview, I came to the conclusion that Marxism itself was a major cause of the establishment of such totalitarian regimes.

Although the author claims to have been a Marxist, he seems to think that social systems "arise" from "worldviews".

A nice Hegelian observation...but rather the opposite of the Marxist view that worldviews arise from social systems.


In my opinion, most of the questions involved cannot be proved or disproved (which is part of my argument against Marxism).

A post-modernist evasion...the real world is "inherently unknowable".


Marxism is a philosophical worldview, a speculative interpretation of the world. By this I mean that it embodies a set of beliefs about such "deep" questions as the nature of the universe and human beings' place in it, the meaning and goal of history, the origin of human consciousness and the accuracy of our knowledge, the definition of freedom and how it can be achieved. These issues have been discussed and debated by philosophers and others for thousands of years, but neither by Marx's time nor by ours have these issues been settled-proved or disproved-by science (or anything else). Nor, in my view, can they ever be resolved. They are ultimately matters of judgment and choice for every human being.

More of the same post-modernist crap.


In contrast, Marxism is a closed system whose practitioners share the same philosophical credo.

No, that's not true...even prior to Marx's death, there were already struggles taking place among "Marxists" about how to apply this "philosophy" and even how to change it, to improve its analysis of the real world.

Marxists agree that Marxism is "true" in the same sense that evolutionists think that evolution is "true"...it is the details that provoke furious controversy.


It has no standardized rules of procedure...

It appeals to the empirical data that every science appeals to. Setting aside those who are still transfixed by "dialectical" mysticism, it uses the same logic and mathematics that is common to all of science.


Whatever the historical results of Marxism, those Marxists who remain committed to it exonerate it. Those who judge it a failure cease being Marxists.

Well, yeah...what else would you expect? That's what rational people do. That's what this particular author did.


Moreover, its discussions usually resemble theological debates which, where Marxists have had the means to do so, have often been decided in blood.

Note again the conflation of Marxist theory and Leninist practice. Did Marx "hire a hit man to take out Bakunin"?


In addition to presenting a plausible theory of history, its elaborate critique of capitalism and its call to overthrow it make Marxism particularly attractive to middle class intellectuals and others of intellectual bent who are already disturbed about the injustices of contemporary society.

No doubt.

But it seems to me that it is Leninism that most particularly appeals to some "middle-class intellectuals"...it offers them a crucial role to play both in the overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of its replacement.

Some "middle-class intellectuals", seeing no opportunities for climbing the existing class ladder, entertain a vision of "socialism" where they are on the top rung of the new class ladder from the beginning. All from the most "altruistic" motives, of course.


Marx's analysis of capital, like the rest of his theory, is a philosophical construct, not a scientific theory. Rather than being an objective confirmation of his broader worldview, it is infused throughout with the philosophic assumptions and precepts of that outlook.

It either works or it doesn't. It either explains existing reality or it fails to explain existing reality.

The "infusion" of "philosophic assumptions" is irrelevant.

And there's also this consideration: whatever the empirical shortcomings of Marxism (a highly contentious matter in itself), no one else has any plausible alternative.

Bourgeois historians are reduced to the "shit happens!" theory. Bourgeois economics -- as Steve Keen demonstrated -- is a naked emperor. Bourgeois sociology is, with rare exceptions, an enormous pile of banal trivia. Evolutionary psychology is junk science.

Of course, you can go for the "post-modernist" approach: nothing regarding human affairs (or anything else!) is really knowable...every theory is a "social construct" to be replaced by a new "social construct" indefinitely into the future.

It's all just "a matter of opinion" and one is as good as any other.

For some reason, that option holds little appeal to me.


Despite making many assumptions and employing procedures that further his conclusions, Marx does not prove his case. What he does do, in a manner of speaking, is to find what he's looking for.

Shame on him! He should have found instead that class society was the perpetual fate of humanity.

No doubt if he had, he would have immediately received a full professorship at a prestigious university.


In addition to representing a body of theory, Marxism insists that it is a guide to revolutionary action. Beyond the general demand that Marxists organize the workers to overthrow capitalism, it mandates that specific measures be taken by revolutionaries should they be in a position to do so. These include the establishment of a dictatorial state, the nationalization of all property in its hands and the repression of all those who resist. When carried out, such measures lead to the establishment of a totalitarian society.

The only "dictatorial state" that Marx himself endorsed was the Paris Commune.

It did not lead to "the establishment of a totalitarian society".


Marxism can best be understood as an ideology that expresses the aspirations of certain socially-concerned intellectuals and others to reorganize and rule society according to their values.

Sorry, but that's Leninism...not Marxism.


[Marxism] thus defines away the possibility of a conflict between the Marxist program and the desires and interests of those it claims to represent.

Yes, I suppose that's true. So what?

If Marxism is true, then that conflict will not arise. If Marxism is not true, then not only will that conflict arise, it will persist indefinitely...and there will never be a proletarian revolution in the Marxist sense.


The elitist potential of Marxism becomes actual when, after a successful revolution or some other event that enables them to assume power, Marxist revolutionaries, pursuing the strategy prescribed by their theory, set up a centralized state they call and believe to be the dictatorship of the proletariat. They then have both the opportunity and the power to impose their vision on the rest of society, including the workers.

Anyone who does this is, by definition, not really a Marxist...though they may use the terminology (sometimes correctly).

It's obvious from Marx's writings that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is ultra-democracy for the proletariat and harsh dictatorship for the old ruling class and their lackeys.

The author is really just talking about Leninism again...and calling it "Marxism".


The seeds of the historical results of Marxism can be seen in Marxist theory if one looks beneath the surface.

And has a very fertile imagination. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Morpheus
5th September 2004, 07:43
The full article addresses much of Redstar's response, although I agree there are some flaws in it. But a few things:


In the Marxist paradigm, proletarian revolution begins in the most advanced capitalist countries...where all the productive potential of capitalism has been exhausted and there is a "general crisis" of the system. There is no question of such revolutions beginning in backward, semi-feudal countries like Russia or China -- if it is attempted, the consequence will be "barracks communism"...an equality of misery.

Why should attempting it in pre-industrial (or partially industrial) societies lead to "barracks communism?" If barracks communism is equality of misery then Marxist-leninism wasn't "barracks communism" because they were very stratified societies, with lots of inequality.


In the Marxist paradigm, the masses are the "motor force" of the revolution...not a "vanguard" of self-designated leaders. The modern conception of the Leninist party (since 1917) -- a tightly organized and well-disciplined "officer corps" or "general staff" of the proletariat is an anti-Marxist innovation. The idea of proletarian revolution as "an act of will" on the part of an "enlightened minority" is idealist, not Marxist.

Leninists usually avoid describing the vanguard party in such terms, so this is a bit of a straw man. Marx & Engels did say:

in times when the class struggle nears the decisive hour, the progress of dissolution going on within the ruling class, in fact within the whole range of old society, assumes such a violent, glaring character, that a small section of the ruling class cuts itself adrift, and joins the revolutionary class, the class that holds the future in its hands. Just as, therefore, at an earlier period, a section of the nobility went over to the bourgeoisie, so now a portion of the bourgeoisie goes over to the proletariat, and in particular, a portion of the bourgeois ideologists, who have raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...ifesto/ch01.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm)

That may not go as far as Lenin - but it certainly opens the door to vanguardism.


Did Marx "hire a hit man to take out Bakunin"?

He wasn't in a position to do so. He did committ some pretty despicable behaviour in the first international. He expelled Bakunin & other anarchists and moved the hq to New York in order to stop the anarchists (who had now become a majority) from winning control of the international. He killed the 1st international rather than allow it to become anarchist.


And there's also this consideration: whatever the empirical shortcomings of Marxism (a highly contentious matter in itself), no one else has any plausible alternative.

Bourgeois historians are reduced to the "shit happens!" theory. Bourgeois economics -- as Steve Keen demonstrated -- is a naked emperor. Bourgeois sociology is, with rare exceptions, an enormous pile of banal trivia. Evolutionary psychology is junk science.

Even if your objection were correct, it would not show that Marxism is correct. "There is no alternative" is the same BS Thatcher used to support capitalism. If there is no sufficient alternative currently in existance then it means we need to create a new theory, not hold onto old discredited ones.

In terms of history, there are many alternatives to the Marxist theory of history (BTW, very few professional bourgeois historians today subscribe to "shit happens"). There's the World Systems approach (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/10/index-g.html), enviromental theories of history (a certain kind of enviroment produces a certain kind of society) such as Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamon, state-centric theories, power-centric theories, gender-centric theories, and many others. My approach is to look at each specific historical (events) and look at the evidence in order to determine what caused what, etc. rather then trying to fit everything into some predetermined scheme covering all of human history. If you haven't studied every society that ever existed how can you believe in a theory that purports to explain all of human history? There are many alternatives to bourgeois economics, as Keen pointed out. Bourgeois sociology actually draws on Marx's theories, he is considered a respected thinker among most sociologists even if most disagree with some of his ideas.


The only "dictatorial state" that Marx himself endorsed was the Paris Commune.

It did not lead to "the establishment of a totalitarian society".

It probably would have if it lasted longer. They set up a "committee of public safety." Remember what the committee of public safety did in the original french revolution? And Marx's comments on the Paris Commune were totally off, along with Bakunin's comments, as I've shown elsewhere.


Yes, I suppose that's true. So what?

It makes Marxism fertile ground for becoming the cover for the rise of a new ruling class, much the way bourgeois ideology allegedly did.


If Marxism is true, then that conflict will not arise. If Marxism is not true, then not only will that conflict arise, it will persist indefinitely...and there will never be a proletarian revolution in the Marxist sense.

Non-sequitor.


It's obvious from Marx's writings that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is ultra-democracy for the proletariat and harsh dictatorship for the old ruling class and their lackeys.

Unsubstantiated assertion.

redstar2000
6th September 2004, 05:58
Why should attempting it in pre-industrial (or partially industrial) societies lead to "barracks communism?" If barracks communism is equality of misery then Marxist-leninism wasn't "barracks communism" because they were very stratified societies, with lots of inequality.

I think there was "equality of misery" for the vast majority...and even the ruling party leadership lived poorly by western capitalist standards.


That may not go as far as Lenin - but it certainly opens the door to vanguardism.

Not unless you make a lot of additional assumptions that are not present in the quotation given.

I think Lenin did make those assumptions -- in particular, I think he assumed that "the portion of the bourgeois ideologists" were the "only fit leaders" both of the revolution and the post-revolutionary state.


He wasn't in a position to do so. He did commit some pretty despicable behaviour in the first international. He expelled Bakunin & other anarchists and moved the hq to New York in order to stop the anarchists (who had now become a majority) from winning control of the international. He killed the 1st international rather than allow it to become anarchist.

You sound as if you're still pissed off about it.

Ok, let's say you're right...Marx "played dirty".

Why then didn't Bakunin and the other anarchists proceed at once to organize a new international? That's what Lenin did...and would have tried to do even if his October "revolution" had failed.

If the anarchists were really the majority in the first international, then putting together a new one would have involved hardly anything more difficult than ordering new stationary.

Or why didn't anarchists send enough guys over to the U.S. (I believe the last year of the 1st international was in Philadelphia, not New York) to "take it back" and return it to Europe?

I'm kind of wondering, myself, if the first international wasn't already dying...and Marx managed to convince the General Council to move it to the U.S. for "a decent burial".

Just a thought.


Even if your objection were correct, it would not show that Marxism is correct.

I agree...what I'm saying is a that a "general model" with faults is preferable to "no model" or to models with even more and greater faults.

You, like most bourgeois historians, will seek specific explanations for a particular historical event -- drawing from whichever model seems most plausible -- and "let it go at that".

I don't think that's a very useful approach.

Indeed, I think the other "models" that you mentioned reduce to "shit happens"...at least in most cases. (Environmental theories could be a sub-set of historical materialist explanations.)

You evidently have a sincere "distaste" for "meta-history"...fair enough.

I think there is "order" in macro-history...and that Marx has been the best guy at that so far.


It probably would have if it lasted longer. They set up a "committee of public safety."

Elected by whom? Recallable by whom?


Remember what the committee of public safety did in the original French revolution?

Removed the heads of some 4,000 French aristocrats and their lackeys, as I recall.

Does that bother you?


Non-sequitor.


Unsubstantiated assertion.

Would you like it if I started replying to your points in that fashion?

What do either of us gain by it?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Gringo-a-Go-Go
3rd October 2004, 22:07
Another sad soul caving-in to the constant totalitarian pressure of bourgeois hegemony...

I came into this forum hoping it was about marxism's historical growth out of hegelian dialectic (which it might get around to yet...) Instead I'm confronted with yet another "Darkness at Noon"-type recantation from yet another victim of the Bourgeois Inquisition. Being shown the instruments of torture on a regular basis, the compulsion of this one to revert to some petit-bourgeois pretension or another -- here, the currently fashionable PoMo anarchism -- is irrestistable.

So sad.

That being said, I might even actually want to read the points he made (in small bites) and actually maybe refute them, one by one... At least one comrade seems to have this job covered, from what I've read so far.


So how about the Hegel guy, eh..? Some joker, huh?

redstar2000
3rd October 2004, 23:30
So how about the Hegel guy, eh..? Some joker, huh?

From what I've read, he successfully passed himself off as the "legitimate" heir of Kant...and, moreover, did it while Kant was still alive!

An astounding performance. Hegel was "The Great Houdini" of philosophers. :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Gringo-a-Go-Go
4th October 2004, 00:07
From what I've read, he successfully passed himself off as the "legitimate" heir of Kant...and, moreover, did it while Kant was still alive!

An astounding performance. Hegel was "The Great Houdini" of philosophers.

They can do that in philosophy, apparently.

Of course, Hegel took the Big Detour, philosophically-wise, from Kant -- which is why neocons think they are 'outflanking' us by backtracking to Kant and describing themselves as "neo-Kantians" or whatever...
Pathetic, mass-murdering bunch.