ZIONISTS - anyone here a zionist?

[man in the red suit]

I was formerly a zionist, now I don't even care. My right wing dad is trying to convince me that all palestinians are bad. He gave me a lecture on how he wanted to torture everyone on this site who had any pro palestinian views. This is besides the point. I wanna know if there are any of you who don't think that Zionists are the big bad monsters trying to exterminate and torture the palestinians in na giant genocide! Really, these people are fucking stupid. Are there any of you even slightly pro-Jew? come on, I'm the only one here who Knows that palestinians aren't innocent babies trying to dfend themselves from massacring homicidal Jews! Really, this has gotten out of hand. Everyone here is only pro-palestinian because they are a bunch of posers who think that they have to follow any thing which is the least bit leftist.

SOMEONE COME OUT AND ADMIT THE TRUTH.
they are both responsible. they are both guilty. fuck em both or love em both.

[CheGuevara]

I despise religion, and so therefore, I despise religious states. However, if the Israelis wished to move to Antarctica and oppress the penguins, I'll be willing to look the other way.

[man in the red suit]

ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

this made me change my mind. That was from fires of history. I didn't know this before..............

[peaccenicked]

Supporting the oppressed peoples of the world is an internationalist duty. It is no accident that America supports Isreals occupation of Palestine and that is one of the cental problems in the middle east.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Palestine as a government is essentially weak. Arafat has little control over the people. This is not true in the case of Sharon and the Israeli State. The state of Israel, historically backed by the USA, has a verystrong government and military force. The Palestinians are very free. MRIS- the very freedom your father most likely claims to support is had in greater potency in the land of Palestine which he so willingly condemns. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the State, which functions with the purpose of creating an environment in which the peolple flourish, is not properly functioning in Palestine. The people are not regulated in their actions as well as in Israel. America claims to support democracy, freedom, and the preservation of the rights of the individual. As one wise Court Justice once said- "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." If America truly supported this they would not send more support to stregthening a state in which these values of Democracy, freedom, and the preservation of the individual's rights are well established. By all means America should send more support to the Palestinian State in order to move away form Anarchy and oppresion. Insead they support this state of Israel which, due to my enlightenment as bestowed upon me by the Man in the red suit on the Torah's position on pre-messiahnist states, is unjustified by thier own beliefs. This Sate takes advatage of their weak neighbors due to the nationalistic acts carried out by people led to understand israel's oppresion of Palestine. These intolerable acts of Seppuku for one's country( which could b praised for immense "patriotism" in America) have provoked attacks (which are over, for now) on Palestine which provoke more hatred, and thus more bombings, etc. The real problem between Israel and Palestine is it's State vs. State and People. Some pro-Israelis will undoubtable argue that The bombers kill People in Israel too, but I'll bet more Israelis have been killed by other Israelis than by by Palestinians. THE TRUTH IS THAT BOTH GOVERNMENTS ARE GUILTY, BUT THE PEOPLE ARE INNOCENT. IT'S ARAFAT vs. SHARON NOT ISRAEL vs. PALESTINE!

[ZaPaTiStA SoCiAlIsTa]

CELEBRATE THE DAY PALESTINE IS FREE!!!!
FUCK ZIONISM, FUCK IT!

[Hattori Hanzo]

Zionism is , as long as it's not violently enforced, justifiable

[Hattori Hanzo]

Of course Palestine should be freed of course!

[man in the red suit]

yes i agree with H.H.

[Reuben]

There are several meanings for the term zionism.

IN its broadest sense it refers to the movement which delvweloped in the 19th century which said that jews, like many other ethnic minorities at the time, should have a 'homeland. Although I would not promote this, the idea of a jewish home land is njo less legitimate than the idea of any other ethnic minorities having states of their own (armenians bangladeshis, gypsies?)

Howver it tends to refer to the idea of setting up a jewish state in palestin. This is something which, as demonstrated in 1948 can obnly be done through mass expulsion of hundreds of thousands of palestinians and a racist immigration policy.

Furthermore, zionism refers to allegiance with israel.


Iwould definitely refer to mysel ff as anti-zionist

[Derar]

Zionism Means having israel only for jewish ppl , no muslims , no christians , no arabs , no buddhas , no indians .......... they all should be killed ! coz in zionism , Jews r the Chosen one and the number 1 race ..... other ppl r the next race , 2nd degree race !

and that's exactly like Nazism ..... where they had the aryan race the number 1 race .......... And i dont understand how a person can be so idiotic to suffer from racism and then be a racist in the same way !

When First Zionists came to palestine , under the protetion of the british forces ....... they didnt just settle and mix with the palestinian locals in peace ..... they massacred any paletinian in sight , destroyed homes , shops , and forced more than 700 thousand ppl to leave palestine , their home country , their family's country .....
Read about the Dir yassin massacre......

Last year in Durban ( south africa ) in the World Conference Against Racism ....... Every single country in the world voted yes for Zionism as a form of racism , except 2 countries ( US , Israel ) ....

Have u read about the sabra and shatila massacre , have u read about the qana massacre , or the other tens and tens of massacres happend in the palestinian refugee camps ...... were kids , women , and old men were slaughtered !

So stop ur racist dad from washing ur brain ....... if after reading all this , and everyone's post here , and u still decide to be a Zionist ( racist ) ..... then fuck off this board , coz racists r not allowed here ........

Ask ur dad this simple question ( IS Stealing a sin ? ) , he will say yes , then ask him ( Then Why did we steal the palestinians land ? )

[Reuben]

That isnt accurate.

Firstly zionism was a secular movement started by secular jews and th chosen people stuff wwas not what stimulated the movement. It was more based on the oppression of the jewish people than religion. In fact some aspects of the zionist movement wanted a jewish state in other parts fof the world.

Yes their is a strand of religious zionism, although what you have covered is a narrow strand of zionism. Remember comrade Naom Chomsky refers to himself as a 1930s zionist, as he wants a binational state. and this is certainly not nazi


I am not attacking you comrade. I agree with you that allegiance with israel is racist

[Dhul Fiqar]

We really just have to ask ourselves one question: is there a moral difference between a "pure jewish state" and a "pure aryan state"? I think a policy of ethnic purity, ethnic cleansing if you will, is completely unacceptable morally, and it seems most people here agree.

--- G. Raven

[yuriandropov]

exactly, in principal, there is no difference between ethnicly cleansing jews from facist germany and ethnicly cleansing palestinans from 'israel'. the swastika has been replaced with the star of david.

[Reuben]

i agree with df.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 9:18 am on May 12, 2002
We really just have to ask ourselves one question: is there a moral difference between a "pure jewish state" and a "pure aryan state"? I think a policy of ethnic purity, ethnic cleansing if you will, is completely unacceptable morally, and it seems most people here agree.
I'm not sure this is especially relevant, because very few Zionists want a purely Jewish state. Reuben got the history of Zionism right. Khazaria was anything but purely Jewish.

And when's the last time someone wanted a purely Aryan state? Nazis want a purely Aryan WORLD! The most extreme and crazy Zionists with any following, however, want a purely Zionist stretch of desert that's smaller than some of the states in New England. I'm not saying that this is right, but it definitely isn't as bad as Nazism.

[man in the red suit]

(duck)

[El Brujo]

The Israili army uses the same tactics as the Nazis.

[Rob]

I agree with Reuben. I think that what Israel has done is horrible and racist, and that the Palestinians need to be liberated, but I can't stand how many people are disguising hatred of Jews as opposition to Israel.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Since the 1940's the Jews have been practicing what they have wryly called a "population exchange" scheme. One where jews all over the world are encouraged to settle in what was known back then as the land of Plaestine. The indigenous Palestinian people who have been living there for many generations were encouraged to sell their land and migrate to neighbouring arab countries. However, to the fury of the various zionists organisations, most Palestinians opted against selling their homeland and decided to stay put. Consequently, this lead to the initiation of the 'terror tactics' which were employed by various zionist gangs such as the Irgun and Stern gangs, lead by Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir respectively(with the knowledge and former agreement of the Haganah). They committed various atrocities such as the killing of scores of innocent civilians, destroying villages, stealing land, and looting. In other words, those insubordinate Palestinians who rejected the population exchange scheme were 'terrorised' out of their land.

Sadly, once the so called "democratic" Jewish State was established, one might have expected that the more enlighted and secular figures such as Albert Einstein (who was asked to become the 2nd president of the state of Israel but declined the offer) would play a more prominent role in the government. However, it was the more radical figures such as Ben Gurion, as well Begin, Shamir (the war criminals of the Deir Yassin Massacre) and Ariel Sharon (Sabra and Shatila) who took to the centre stage and became future prime ministers of Israel. They in turn, continued to subjugate the palestinian people with the same deplorable tactics. and furthermore, they are still building more and more illegal jewish settlements, and thus paving the way for more colonisation.

That is why at the end of the day I always find myself more sympathetic to the plight of the indigenous Palestinian people who were exiled from their lands. They were not in a regional battle with their neighbours (a more understandable scenario). They were exiled in order to make room for 'illegal' jewish immigrants, whether they are polish, dutch or american. Thes settlers simply believe that this land is their "jewish birth right" regardless of the fact that they, their parents and their grandparents were born somewhere else, thousands of miles away; and they the palestinians have been living there for many generations.

[bleed3r]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 3:20 am on May 12, 2002
I wanna know if there are any of you who don't think that Zionists are the big bad monsters trying to exterminate and torture the palestinians in na giant genocide! Really, these people are fucking stupid. Are there any of you even slightly pro-Jew?

"slightly pro-jew"... as opposed to anti-zionist.. you say that as if zionism IS judaism. i understand otherwise. i for one believe that religion should be kept far away from governmental affairs, especially when it's being openly forced upon another religious sect. divine right is not something i believe in, nor something i support... and using divine right for justification of genocide is absolutely disgusting. anyway, someone already posted this article in another thread, but i cant find it so i'll post it again.. it's by the naturei karta.


We would like to take a few minutes of your time to prevent you from making a terrible mistake that may have disastrous results for many.

You have always without a doubt heard and read much about the political crises in the Middle East in which the State of Israel plays a central role. This is, in fact, an ongoing series of crises with potential to bring the greatest misfortune on the entire world. Tragically many believe that Zionism and Judaism are identical. Thus they conclude that the entire Jewish people is responsible for the actions of the Zionist government and the world crises which emanates from it. This is a Grave Error!

The truth is that the Jewish faith and Zionism are two very different philosophies. They are as opposite as day and night. The Jewish people have existed for thousands of years. In their two thousand years of Divinely decreed exile no Jew ever sought to end this exile and establish independent political sovereignty anywhere. The people's sole purpose was the study and fulfillment of the Divine commandments of the Torah.

The Zionist movement created the Israeli state. The latter is a persuasion less than one hundred years old. Its essential goal was and is to change the nature of the Jewish people from that of a religious entity to a political movement. From Zionism's inception the spiritual leaders of the Jewish people stood in staunch opposition to it.

To this day Torah Jewry remains forever loyal to its faith. Zionists want the world to believe that they are the representatives of the entire Jewish people. This is false! The Jewish people never chose them as their leaders.

The Zionists have deceived many well meaning Jewish people via terror, trickery and false propaganda. They have at their disposal the use of a nearly universally subservient media. Whoever attempts to criticize them puts his livelihood and, at times, his very life in danger.

However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

Some religious Jews, confused by Zionist propaganda quote Biblical verses that state that G-d gave the children of Israel the Holy Land. They overlook, unfortunately, those verses which say that He took it away due to our sins. They further ignore those prophecies which explicitly describe the last exile's conclusion as a Divine, not a human process.

The Creator has commanded every Jew to follow the ways of peace and to be loyal to the country where he lives.

Torah true Jewry waits patiently for the Messianic redemption. They have nothing to do with any kind of pseudo "Jewish State" and its aggressions against other peoples. They have a deep sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians who have suffered the most from Zionism's false teachings and barbaric actions. The Zionist state is not a Jewish state. The Zionists alone are the only ones responsible for their actions. Authentic Jewry has and will continue to oppose the very existence of this blasphemous state.

May all mankind witness the true redemption.


(Edited by bleed3r at 4:54 pm on May 13, 2002)

[man in the red suit]

I know Judaism is seperate from zionism. My bad, I'm a jew. I say this all the time because I like to rustle things up with my friends. I am simply tired of these sick motherfuckers who think that bombing innocent civilians are heroes. And it is fucking stupid for ppl to think that Israely forces attack innocent civilians on purpose! the american media trys to tell the ppl that the palestinians are good! israel tries to go after these sick demented fucks who think they are heroes by bombing things and ppl. The israelis are simply focused on for the innocent ppl they kill on accident. These fucking palestinian assholes bomb on purpose. It is also their own people who forced the palestinians to leave their homes not the israelis. The day the palestinians attacked, they told their ppl to leave the cities. So thank u for not agreeing with these fucking pals!!!

[bleed3r]

I don't agree with suicide bombings, nor do I agree with the equally ridiculous Israeli army. I'm real sick of people killing each other to put it quite frankly. I beleive the palestinians are opressed, and that they have very few other methods of being heard, but I believe taking your life in order to kill a few people who may or may not have any political involvement is certainly no way to solve things, and the glorified sense of martyrdom these people achieve is disgusting as well. I don't agree with either side, but I would lean more towards the palestinians simply because Israel is so obviously the agressor.

I have no solution to offer. I believe that even if reparations are made, the feeling will still remain. The hatred has gone way too far to present any easy way out.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from man in the red suit on 9:03 pm on May 13, 2002
It is also their own people who forced the palestinians to leave their homes not the israelis.
How do you explain the settlements then?

[man in the red suit]

Israel took over. Arabs live in what is now Israel. What was left of Palestine has now become Israel.

[Derar]

Israel Took over ???

Wich means , my country can simply now invade ur country kick the hell out if the residents , or kill most of them , and ill say we simply took over !!!

Next time think before u make ur idiotic racist comments .

[new democracy]

well you know my view i condem zionism and teror. i must say that i konw what you feel i am the only anti zionist guy in my family!!! my big brother is realy racist. he hates arabs, hipanics, black, and jews that came from countries like moroco.

[Tchort]

Zionism has become a sgregationist and racist ideology.
The only similarity it holds with National Socialism is a desire for a nationalised piece of land.

I Will Deny You-
What are you talking about? Talk to any NS of the 30s or of today. None want an 'Aryan world'. They want Europe, America, South Africa and Austrailia to be all White. The only places they have a chance is Europe (Le Pen, Haider, Pim Furtuyns party, Norways populist party, et al) and maybe South Africa (ANS, AWB)

[Wash Me]

They claim that Palestine is originally the Jewish’s homeland…
If so, then why the hell did they leave it from the first place?!?!?

[Politrickian]

The Roman Empire drove them outta there after various revolts, IIRC and the Muslimisation of the Middle east during the rise of the Islam as a religion may have played a role too.

And Fortuyns party is not a aryan party, they brought the first foreign secertary of state into office. But, however that one left 9 hours later because she was part of the People's Militia of Deci Bouterse, a Dictator in Suriname which murdered the opposition. She's getting paid for the next 2 years, too. However, they are Facists. Facist Hipocrits. Anyway, thats off-topic.

I'm anti-Zionist and i support Palestine, but I would like to see Arafat out of office. Same goes for Sharon. Not 1 of them wants peace. And the Isreali army... Thats just a replacement of the S.S.

[Pinko]

"The israelis are simply focused on for the innocent ppl they kill on accident. These fucking palestinian assholes bomb on purpose..."

Are you saying that the dropping of a 1 tonne bomb onto an apartment block was an accident?
Are you saying that using rockets and missiles to kill one man in a car going through a residential area is accidental?
The Israeli armed forces use high explosives to assasinate individuals and then express regret when bucket loads of civilians are killed and then they keep on doing it. Bulldozing peoples houses. What the fuck is that about? Recently it has been demolishing the houses of the families of suicide bombers, but that only started happening this year, Irsael has been demolishing occupied Palestinian houses for decades. You cannot tell me that is accidental.

"Israel took over. Arabs live in what is now Israel. What was left of Palestine has now become Israel"

Have you not heard of the occupied terretories? They were taken long after the formation of Israel. Israel has expanded its borders to incorporate parts outside of the UN granted lands. The Gaza strip was held and governed by Egypt, the West Bank was held and governed by Jordan.
This is a nice history of the area. (http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/cmenas/StudyUnits/israeli-palestinian_conflict/studentkeydates.html)

Anyway, Israel was forged from Terrorism.
1944-47 Jewish-British War. Jewish groups in Palestine try to expel Britain. Mainstream Jewish fighters under David Ben Gurion are called Hagana. They later become the Israeli army. Two separate military groups (Irgun Zvai Leumi led by Menachem Begin and Lehi or the Stern Gang led by Yitzhak Shamir) resort to assassination and bombings. Many British soldiers and Arab civilians are killed

Basicly, both sides are as bad as the other. I will side with the oppressed people and ally myself against the oppressor. I have nothing but sympathy for the Jews, buy Israel's actions are inexcusable, especially in the face of what happened to the Jews in WW2.

Just out of interest, go and read this.
Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik. (http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/OronAWOL.cfm)
Here is a quote:

Already on the bus ride to the Gaza strip, the soldiers were competing with each other: whose "heroic" tales of murderous beatings during the Intifada were better (in case you missed this point: the beatings were literally murderous: beating to death).


(Edited by Pinko at 4:32 am on Sep. 2, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Wash Me on 11:25 pm on Sep. 1, 2002
They claim that Palestine is originally the Jewish’s homeland…
If so, then why the hell did they leave it from the first place?!?!?



not through their own choice. they were forced off the land by the different regimes that were in the county throughout the years. zionism is supposed to be the return of the jewish people to their historic homeland.

now, i fully support the notion that the jewish people deserve a homeland. israel is the only place in the world where jews can live as jews, and not risk their lives because of it. according to surveys, the level of anti semetism in the western world is growing with the years, not diminishing. israel is a haven for the jewish people, where they can practice their religion without hiding it. i truely believe that the end of israel, will, in turn, lead to the end of the jewish community around the world. it may seem like a far-fetching theory, maybe exaggerated, but it is the sad truth.

the land of palestine is the only place on earth the jews have some claim on. there is no other piece of earth that every single jew, eastern european, asian or north african, can call home. by saying this, i by no means discard the palestinians' right to live there, for it was their home for hundreds of years.

zionism isn't occupation, deportation and killing. this is only how the right extremists interpret it as. even most rightists in israel recognizes the right of the palestinians' for a free homeland, within the areas israel now occupies.

i am a zionist. i feel for every palestinian family that has lost one of its members because of the sinful occupation. i tremble at every sight of injustice caused to the palestinians by israel. i shiver at every sound of a bomb going off in the streets of tel aviv. zionism is not neccessarily intolerant and racist.

[Pinko]

There are more Jews in the USA than in Israel, why don't they take Califoria or Wyoming?

A Jewish friend of mine said that he considered the US to be the promised land. It must be said, they are having a better time of it over there than in Israel. There seems to be nothing Holy about the things that are happening in the middle east.

[Blasphemy]

didn't i already answer your question in the third paragraph of my previous post?

[Conghaileach]

from Blasphemy:
the land of palestine is the only place on earth the jews have some claim on. there is no other piece of earth that every single jew, eastern european, asian or north african, can call home. by saying this, i by no means discard the palestinians' right to live there, for it was their home for hundreds of years.

Any Jew can call Ireland home, if he/she moves there. Any Jew can call America, Canada, Cuba, Argentina, England, France, Germany, Scotland, Russia or anywhere else on the planet, home if he/she moves there.

[Pinko]

Every religion has one or more countries to call their own. They are not recognised as such, but they are there. Italy, most of South America, most of Ireland etc.. are catholic states. The Arabs have loads. Russia is the home to Orthodox Christianity. Although these are not officially religious states, they are havens for those religions. The Jews only really have Israel (and only tenuously), I think that is why they fight so hard for it.
People say that religions shouldn't have a state of their own, that secular and religious affairs should be kept separate, but in reality that is not true. The Jews are a scattered people, they need a centre to focus on, but not to the exclusion of all others.

Incidently, I think the main reason Jews have been hated so throughout history is that they are the only religion of the book that are allowed to make money from money lending. Both Islam and Christianity forbid it (in theory), as a result the Jews were the loan-sharks of their day. This caused quite some resentment which has perpetuated though history.
I could be wrong on that, but I have heard it from many sources that idividualy I wouldn't have given much credance to, but the weight of numbers do add up. If anyone knows something to the contrary, please let me know. I don't like spreading mistruth.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from CiaranB on 7:14 pm on Sep. 2, 2002
from Blasphemy:
the land of palestine is the only place on earth the jews have some claim on. there is no other piece of earth that every single jew, eastern european, asian or north african, can call home. by saying this, i by no means discard the palestinians' right to live there, for it was their home for hundreds of years.

Any Jew can call Ireland home, if he/she moves there. Any Jew can call America, Canada, Cuba, Argentina, England, France, Germany, Scotland, Russia or anywhere else on the planet, home if he/she moves there.


but the jews have no claim on these countries. palestine is the only place that unites all the jews from all over the world because of its historic importance.

[Conghaileach]

I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, so I don't think that any race or religion should be allowed to have their own claim to any country.

[Pinko]

"I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, so I don't think that any race or religion should be allowed to have their own claim to any country."

But in a democratic state where there is a religious majority, the policies of the elected government will reflect the religious concerns of the people. This is an unavoidable problem is such a state.

[Menshevik]

The actual theory of Zionism, returning to the homeland, doesn't really bother me, it's what some Zionists have turned into. In 1948, Jews were willing to move anywhere as long as they could call it their home. Now, there are some racist wackos who say they embody the true meaning of Zionism, but it's the same thing as the suicide bomber who thinks he embodies Islam in its true form.

[Reuben]

Pink yougot it slightly wrong with regard to money lenidng although it does something to with it.

What haappened was that acroosss europe, mnany countries forced Jews to be money lender and tax collectors etc.(they were not allowed to other jobs). Though your right that is where the jewish greed myth comes from.

Furthermore modern santi-semitism developed really in the enlightenment with the growth of nationalism in Europe. The fact that jews were an ethnic group who spoke their own language, but were not bound by borders made them resented as their existence was contrary to nationalist dreams of culturally homogeneous states.

[mooseboy84]

i am anti zionism.

zionism is based on religion. nothing more. jews use biblical beliefs to justify the state of isreal. its because the bible says thats there homeland. i dont hate jews, im just not a zionist. i know many jews that are not zionist.

i think people must realise that part of the problem when always refering to the middle east is calling isreal a "democracy". thats not true, people may be allowed to vote technically, but isrealis consider god to be the leader of there country. if it were a true democracy, then it wouldnt matter how many palestinians lived INSIDE isreal. thats how you can tell isreal is not a true democracy. some palestinians have called for a "right to return", that is being allowed to live inside isreal and having full isreali citizenship.
this would be a good idea since everyone would be living side by side and there would be no intense violence [theoretically] because they were countrymen and all had equal rights.

this is were isreal not being a democracy comes in. isreal dosent want the palestinians to return because if they did, very soon isreal would not be a jewish state. it takes simple math to understand a country of 6million jew allow 3 million palestinians in. jew are still a majority, but the average israli woman has like 2.5 kids, where as the average palestinian woman has like 5. isreal would be a country, but not a jewish majority.

thats one of the farseitys that is promoted by reffering to isreal as a democracy, rather than a religous state like saudi arabi or iran.

another problem is the way the palestinians are treated. they are treated like scum. we all know that. in fact so many innocent palestinians have been killed latley that isreal is actually investagating this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/02/internat...todaysheadlines (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/02/international/middleeast/02MIDE.html?todaysheadlines)

another reason why usa supports isreal is because of fundmentalist christinas. to me, i dont know why jews are in bed with christians so much, historically, muslims have been at less vengfull on jews than chrsitians have.
the reason why isreal is supported so much is because whacko christians see the creation of the state of isreal as biblical fufillment. they encourage the war with the palestinians and muslim in hope that it will spark the great war of the apocalypse.
this is true and not some crazy talk. have any of you watched the 700club? [a right wing christian show here in america] i watched it and pat robertson was saying this. im not kidding either. they really believe this.

does jews deserve a state? yes and no. should it have been in palestine? maybe. if it would have included palestinainis as citizens and paid them reparations for being litterally kicked off the land that they had lived on for centurys. if not, they should have created a state for the exiled palestinians, and not just jordan.

[Blasphemy]

i think that the persecution the jews suffered from during the years, and especially the holocaust, proves that the jewish people need a state to protect them. they have always been a minority, and so an easy target for persecution. israel is a state where the jews are a majority, and so they don't have to fear such racism and intolerance. allowing the right of return and making israel a none-jewish state, will again make the jews an easy target for persecution.

[Reuben]

Mooseboy is completely right on the Issue of Israel's democracy.

The manner in which Israel keep democracy while garunteeing Jewish privelege is a suttle variation on the way south africa garunteed white privelege. South Africa encacted democracy for rights while keeping blacks dissenfranchised. Israel who want to maintain a system of ethnic supremacy but at the same time wish for the luxury of calling themselves a democracy, have done this simply through mass ethnic expulsions and the denial of the Palestinians right to return.


Regarding a state for jews i feel (IN BRIEF) that the idea jews as an ethnic group should have a state is no less legitimate many other states which have been created for specific ethnic groups.

Though i am not sure this is right as a general principle in the first place..

[Menshevik]

Very soon Jews will be a minority in their own country of all places.

[Blasphemy]

this is a quote from an interview published today in israel with Amos Oz, a writer and a radical leftist:

"there are two wars going on here. the first one is the palestinian struggle for freedom. in this war, the palestinians are absolutely right, and every decent person should support them, but not the means they use. the second one is a war of muslim extremists who want to eradicate israel. in this war, israel is absolutely right, and every decent person should support it."

[Conghaileach]

How many Muslim extremists are there? I would dare say that not a large percentage of the Palestinian peoplem, but I could be wrong.

[Blasphemy]

you are not wrong at all. most of them are not extremists, only a small percent of them. the problem is that extremists have a tendency to make a lot of noise and problems, and suicide bombing are carried out by the extremists.

[Reuben]

Furthermore when people are under conditions of deprivation and like the Palestinians in the occuppied territories have no means to change their situation politically (they cannot votw out the Israeli goverment whose occuppation they are under) they turn to extremist groups

[saorise]

I have no more problem with Jews than I do for anyone else who is religious- personally I think all religion is a pile of shit though. In the 50's, 60's Ireland was oppressed by the Catholic church. now we look back on that time and think what the fuck were we doing. The state of Israel is a country run by the jewish church hopefully the people will realise the mistake they are making sooner rather than later.
I support an independant Palestinian state as I think most people who read much into the topic would.
I don't agree with suicide bombings on civilians but I strongly agree with Palestinians who fight the israeli army.

[Pinko]

Jews are not an ethnic group. They are a religious group that come from a vast spread of ethnic backgrounds.

[Menshevik]

The state of Israel is a country run by the jewish church

More than half of Israel's population is secular; the government is secular as well.

[Blasphemy]

in israel, there is no seperation of church and state. religious laws greatly effect the way the goverment is run, which is bad of the non-jewish population in israel.

[mooseboy84]

one thing that i dont like are the racist jews in isreal.
this is nothing new, meir khane was a very racist jew. he saids that there could be no black jews [ethiopian and east african black jews]. he was such a zioinst and arab hater, that when yitzahk rebaine said jews need to come out of the palestinians areas for peace, that he was assinated by one of khanes radical zionist followers, which lead isreal to classifying his group as a terroist organiztion like hamas.
by the way, khane found the jewish defense league here in the u.s., jdl.

for all americans that watch pbs, there was a clear example of racism in judiasm, when the lemba, a group of southern black africans who said they were jews. of course racist isreal did not beleive them, so what happens is they gave the a dna test. they found using some dna from the cohen tryibe of jews, that the lemba had HIGHER rates of whatever than the average jew in isreal did that they related tht test too. the jews they tested had like 5-6%, and the lemba had like 10-11% in there blood. that means there more jew than the jews in isreal. the blatent racism stends from the fact the they were even questioned. if these people were from finland, a country a long ways from isreal and said they were jews, do you think they would be tested, hell no.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/lemba.htm

for those of you that dont know, there are 2 type of jews. there are 12 tribes or whatever, but esentially 2 types.

those that are from the ashkenazi jews, and sephardic jews.

now ive heard this nonsense about sephardic jews being from spain and portugal, but thats nonsesne. sephardic jews are arabs and africans. they come from egypt, iran, yemen tunisia and all over he middle east/north africa. they are the jews that look like there arabs, because they are. the other type of jews are ashkenazi. there the "white" jews. from russia and the former ussr countries. as well as including germany and france.

i put white in parentheses because not all arabs are "arab looking" there are black arabs, yassar arafat looking arabs[arab arabs] and white arabs. alot of the white looking arabs come from iran and iraq and syria/lebanon, but you see them from egypt and tunsia also.

anyway, when i here all these jews on tv saying they hate arabs and arab scum this and that, i wonder how these sephardi jews feel, they look like arabs and are, if they were muslim or chrsitian they would be considered arabs, but since there jews there not. this is a clear example of SOME racists and intolerant jews and there treament of arabs. just look what i found on google from a search, its says just what i wrote about serphardic, or "arab" jews.
http://www.asfonline.org/portal/ArabLandsD...?article_id=11& (http://www.asfonline.org/portal/ArabLandsDisplay.asp?article_id=11&)

ya know, its funny, they wont to give money to the arab jews who were forced off arab land, but i bet they wont give 1 dollar to palestinans that were forced off there land.

[Pinko]

Then there are the converted Jews. Like those people from Peru that were converted by Jewish-Zionist missionaries to move to Israel and be part of a new wave of settlers in the illegal settlements.

[Reuben]

Interesting qquestion this of what jews are. Mooseboy is right about the discrimination against sephardic jews.

Btw they did settle in spain and portugal and left to the arab world when spain expelled the jews as european countries have had had a tendency to do.


Regarding ethnicity v religion, It is excepted that the ashkenazi jews do constitute a specific ethnic group. The wave of jewish immigrants to britain in the early 20th century would be hard to categorize simply as russians or poles. For example, although many were secular they did not speak Russian, they spoke Yiddish (this is actually a trranslation of Jewish). THis wasnt simply there religious language,, that was Hebrew. It was day to day mother tongue spoken by people of jewish background regardless of Religion. Furthermore they hada distinct history, culture, music which existed amongst both the secular and religious immigrants.