WHAT IS WITH THIS PALESTINE THING - come on do you really su [Archive]

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 17:38

why do you guys support palestine? no really i want to know. You know you don't have to support Palestine just because it is leftist. I am a socialist and a zionist. Why are you all so anti-semetic? I'm just curious. I went to the white supremecy thing and you all hate me there for expressing my views. so I was a little personal and overenthusiastic. so what! really, are there any zionists here or do you all think that the hebrues are the big bad corporate monsters trying to exploit the Islamic people?

(Edited by man in the red suit at 5:39 pm on May 11, 2002)

(Edited by man in the red suit at 6:09 pm on May 11, 2002)

yuriandropov

11th May 2002, 17:49

well, to answer your last question, yes! well, maybe not all, but a damn lot of them. how can you think jews are more important than muslims? thats what zionism is. its saying jews deserve israel because were more important than muslims. or another way is saying, because of all the swindling, money grabing and exploitation you've caused in the last 2000 years is the reason that no european country will have you anymore. no one in his right mind can claim to be left wing if he is a zionist because he is supporting the theory that one group of people are more important than the others. you may say noone can be anti-semitic and left wing. but karl marx was an anti-semite and frederick engels was bordering on racist. and they were the movements founders!

samaniego

11th May 2002, 17:51

Hey man Im not anti-semetic, but it is wrong for the zionist to go take away peoples land cage them up and want to wipe them off the face the world. Of course this is my opinion. Jews lived peacefuly in palestine before. Its the new zionist from america who want more land and are the racist. Sharon is a war criminal and isnt making things better. Once again Im alright with jews, as long as their not killing and stealing land.

(Edited by samaniego at 9:47 pm on May 11, 2002)

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:02

wow! yuriandropov!! I do not think that judaism is any more important than Islam. In fact, I'm not going to take sides anymore, fuck em both. They are both guilty!!

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:04

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN???!?!?!?!?
zionism is the support of a Jewish homeland. For christ's sake!! I'm not taking sides but that is just pure rascism!!!

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:05

thank you samaniego for giving a decent non rascist opinion :)

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:07

and again how can you think that just because I'm a jew, I don't deserve to be a leftist! what kind of rascist shit is that?! Not all jews are bad people like you seem to think. I thought that leftism was against rascism and for equality. You are the rascist! I am the leftist!

yuriandropov

11th May 2002, 18:10

man in the red suit, what is your reason for supporting israel. i'm not being sarcastic but i would be interested in hearing it from a marxist stand point. i agree more with your last post. both sides are wrong, palestinans and isralis both use propaganda too much. none of this shit would even happen if there wasn't religion. i still support palestinian efforts to rid zionists from there land though. i would solve the middle east problem the same way stalin would. build a fucking wall! jews go on one side, muslims on the other. i don't think jews have a right to live there but without hitler style ethnic cleansing, they are gonna stay there (not that i support ethnic cleansing by the way). build a wall through israel and a wall through jerusalem. have two independant governments that pursue there own agendas.

yuriandropov

11th May 2002, 18:15

BTW, when i said your 'last' post i meant when you said both sides are guily. and also, i didn't say you couldn't be jewish and leftis, i said you couldn't be zionist and leftist. and for the 401st time, hating the jewish religion is anti-semitic, not racist. jews aren't a race, there a religion.

honest intellectual

11th May 2002, 18:19

The Jews have the right to their own nation. So do the Palestinians. Denying that right to one side or another is racist. (yuriandropov, there is a Jewish race)

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:21

ok your right judaism is a religion not a rascist. I still think your a fucking nazi though. You have a point with the wall thing though. Stop being an anti-semetic nazi

Maaja

11th May 2002, 18:21

I do support the right of self-determination and that's why I do support Palestine. That doesn't mean that I hate Jews or anything. I just would like Palestine to be free and independent.

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:24

god, some people.........
Yeah we should just build a wall.

Maaja

11th May 2002, 18:29

In Estonia we just had some statistics that 63% support Palestine, 19% Israel and the rest are not sure about it. The Jewish community was furious and they said that Estonians don't understand them and that they should make more propaganda. That was stupid. There isn't any muslim propaganda at all in Estonia. Even not a mosque, we do have 2 synagogues I think.

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:55

hhmmmm.........

(activating bullshit detector)

man in the red suit

11th May 2002, 18:57

WARNING WARNING... bullshit overload

guerrillaradio

11th May 2002, 20:55

Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:49 pm on May 11, 2002
no one in his right mind can claim to be left wing if he is a zionist because he is supporting the theory that one group of people are more important than the others.

How can you bang on about the relationship between leftism and equality when you produce anti-Semitic rhetoric?? Is that not unequal??

I don't care if Judaism is a race or religion, you're a bigot if nothing else, so fuck you. If there's one thing I hate more than anything else, then it's bigotry. I'm all for free speech and everything but those who discriminate deserve some kinda punishment. They are not intelligent. They are full of shit.

Man with the awfully nice suit - in response to your question, I support neither Israel nor Palestine, but I feel that Israel is a greater evil and has ultimately inflicted more suffering upon Palestine than vice versa, so in that respect, I am pro-Palestinian. We should also remember that Sharon et al aren't the only fascists in the Middle East. Both sides are based on fundamental religious doctrine, and that can only lead to trouble. Zionism is not the only problem here. Religion and segregation are also definite factors.

Fires of History

11th May 2002, 21:33

Quote: from man in the red suit on 5:29 pm on May 11, 2002
actually no, the israelis walk around with guns because these palestinians walk around like fucking maniacs and blow up innocent people! It is ok to go blow their asses up to attack a military target but not on civilians. Israel may not have any more of an entitled place to Israel than Palestine, but at least they don't do this suicide bombing crap. I mean, you say that I'm American brainwashed. You must be Palestinian Brainwashed!! I mean really, where do you think you get your information from "Palestinian underground?"

"Palestinian underground"

No, I get a lot of my facts and information primarily from Arab Media Watch (http://www.arabmediawatch.com/), which is an objective British news agency, they debunk a lot of myth surrounding this, and have great links for furthur research.

"the israelis walk around with guns because these palestinians walk around like fucking maniacs and blow up innocent people!"

You haven't answered my question: Do you believe that the Palestinians would wage a 'proper' war if they could? Ever wonder why they don't? Do you honestly believe that the Palestinians enjoy suicide attacks?

"It is ok to go blow their asses up to attack a military target but not on civilians."

Do you really believe that a suicide bomber could get close enough to a military target? Israeli soldiers don't let Palestinians just hang around them, nor any of their equipment, vehicles, buildings, etc, and will shoot on site anyone who seems a threat.

"Israel may not have any more of an entitled place to Israel than Palestine, but at least they don't do this suicide bombing crap."

Ah, good point. Israel DOES NOT have any more entitlement to that area. They believe they do, but they don't. Zionism is a sick joke, just another reason why religion and politics do not mix.

You keep mentioning the suicide bombings. So, obviously that must be all you see in this situation. Don't you realize that suicide bombings are the only way that the Palestinians have of waging war against their oppressors? Don't you think they would fight another way if they could?

RedRevolutionary87

11th May 2002, 22:36

god damn it there is a difference between zionism and jews, the jewish person can be zionist, and zionism is easly a form of racism, seperating the jewish people and saying they are better than the rest, that is zionism, claiming everyone is the same(gentiles) except for the jews which are better, this is zionism and it is no better than nazism. secondly no ethinic people deserve a pure state, that is also racism, the world is for us to share, we are all humans, get it straight. and no you cannot claim to be leftist and be a zionist, because thats called nazism, nationalist socialism thats all it is, and it is utterly uncceptable, if you claim your religion is better than everyone elses you cannot be leftist, you are a fake and an enemy to the people

Derar

11th May 2002, 22:52

WoW u also had the nerve to put a thread about it .......

fuck off u racist shit ......

ZIONISM IS RACISM ...... ZIONISM = FACSISM.......

Even most of the jews around of the world find zionism a disgrace to them ......

Israel wasnt supposed to be there in the first place , and most of the religious jews and rabies around the world know that ........

FUCK ZIONISM , RACISM AND ISRAEL !

Reuben

11th May 2002, 23:10

honest intellectual is right jews are not just a religion they are anb ethnic group. And Karl Marx was not an anti-semite. Although he was opposed to the jewish religion, anti-semitism was a term coined in the 19th century describing the modern movement which attacks jews as an ethnic group (hence the name anti-SEMITism. Just thought I wuld share that knowledge.

Anti-semitism is racist. I am an atheist but have been attacked bumerous times, verbally and physically, by anti-semites.

Anti-zionism does not equate to anti-semitism and derar is right.

Red revolutionary, I agree. The other problem that the JEwish Workers Bund had with zionism, from a marxist perspective, is that it asserted that the primary common interest between different people was defined by nationality, while marxists would argue it was defined by economic situation.

yuriandropov

12th May 2002, 01:01

gurillaradio, you call me unintelligent when you don't know me. i have a 148 IQ and a degree in law from moscow state university. i'm not a bragger, but i wouldn't say i'm dumb exactly. as a marxist, i take a marxist stand point on judaism. marx didn't like it, so i don't like it. read his two anti-semitic books and you'll understand why. reuban, i am sorry you have been attacked by racists. i am venomously against that. attacking someone because of the colour of there skin is wrong. i keep reffering to myself as anti-semitic only because its the only word i can think of to describe a hate of the jewish religion. i'm not against ethnic jews who are atheist. also, i don't believe i am better than jews, ethnic or religious. i believe no-one is better than no-one. just because i don't like someone doesn't mean i think i'm better than them.

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 01:54

well said comrade, it is tru marx was against ALL religion simply because everyreligion hints at being better than others

man in the red suit

12th May 2002, 02:57

why the fuck do u think that zionism is rascism it is not!!! u are a fucking loon if u think so. If u like palestine more, I respect your opinion but seriously, zionism is NOT rascism. Zionism is the desire for a jewish homeland. Any race who had 6 million of their fucking people executed in a genocide deserves a homeland!!! I am almost more upset with your stupidity than your rascism!

man in the red suit

12th May 2002, 03:01

Main Entry: Zi·on·ism
Pronunciation: 'zI-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1896
: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel
- Zi·on·ist /-nist/ adjective or noun
- Zi·on·is·tic /"zI-&-'nis-tik/ adjective

i didnt see anything about fascism or rascism in there.
hmm.....i wonder why?

Hattori Hanzo

12th May 2002, 03:27

Yeah, man the Jews deserve a homeland. but so do the Palistinians. It's all the fault of those danm capitaliss in the UN who set up the nation of Israel to inforce the Right of return, now the palestinians want to return to the land they had to leave, and their getting killed. mabey that's why their are suicide bombings

man in the red suit

12th May 2002, 03:30

hattori hanzo is the only intellectual in this room so far............................................... ..........

man in the red suit

12th May 2002, 03:31

THEY BOTH DESERVE A HOMELAND!

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 03:38

no no1 deserves no dirty homeland, the thought of it is racist, if the jews deserve a homeland, than so do the blacks, so do the kurds, so do the slavs, so do the gypsies, come on are we gonna seperat ourselve from eachother like this, learn to live as humans, dont fall into stupid groups

man in the red suit

12th May 2002, 04:17

guess your right but still, my point is that they are both equal

ZaPaTiStA SoCiAlIsTa

12th May 2002, 04:27

Jews have a torah
Zionist have a state
Long live palestine!

peaccenicked

12th May 2002, 04:30

Isreal is the jewish homeland. Trouble is they want to make it bigger at the expense of the Palestinians.
Isreal is largely recognised by arab nations and the PLO.
Even America pays lip service to an independent Palestinian state.
In the real world, Zionist expansionism is racist.
It involves intimidating palestinians out of their homes.
Arafat might be right when he says that Hamas is a tool of Isreal because they give Isreal all the excuse they need to continue the occupation. Sounds like a very dirty game.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:33 am on May 12, 2002)

Dhul Fiqar

12th May 2002, 05:33

I'm starting to get the feeling tha Kid In The Red Overalls is not really paying any attention to anything that's been said to him in the other threads about this topic, so I'm not going to waste my bandwith re-iterating the truth about the zionist occupation.

However, I'd like to point out that while many here are outraged about anti-semitism, as if it were somehow worse than other kinds of racism, I have not once heard anyone even refer to anti-hamitism as a problem (you get bonus points for even knowing what it means). I think there's a lot more of that going around in AmeriKKKa today than there is anti-semitism.

Something to think about,

--- G. Raven

man in the red suit

12th May 2002, 05:46

lol........all rascism is bad i am a jew though so I hate anti-semitism a lot. If others are talkin shit about me, let them talk shit. I really don't care. I'm not going to get worked up over what a bunch of stupid fucking rascists have to say.........these people mind as well be hitler followers

Fires of History

12th May 2002, 07:12

First, let's get this straight: no nation enjoys a "right to exist." Countries are created by people killing other people who used to live in a place; countries continue to exist as long as their citizens are willing to kill other people to keep them the hell out. Thus, the U.S. exists.

And so does Israel.

Arab countries' newfound willingness to acknowledge the fact of Israel's existence in exchange for steps towards a Palestinian state is nice but ultimately inconsequential. Israel is, period. Who cares whether or not it has the right to exist? Rand McNally doesn't determine nationhood. Force does.

As long as the United States continues to pour in $3 billion a year in aid-more than the total for all other nations combined-Israel will continue to thrive. (By comparison, war-torn Afghanistan is only slated to get $300 million next year.) As for the willingness to kill other guys to keep them out...well, that's the trouble.

Right-wing extremist Ariel Sharon has unleashed a horrific onslaught upon Gaza and the West Bank that has left all but the most hardened pro-Israel hawks disgusted. An April 17th Pew Research Center poll shows public support for Israel down to 42 percent in the wake of Sharon's latest incursion.

Sharon's shock troops are using the same tactics-reprisal assassinations, torture, demolitions and mass arrests-that most Israelis' parents and grandparents witnessed as victims of the Third Reich. And we're subsidizing it all.

-This is from Time To Cut Israel Loose (http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0506-07.htm).

And I couldn't have said it better myself.

The belief that Israel has a "right to exist" is Zionism in a nutshell.

guerrillaradio

12th May 2002, 14:40

Quote: from yuriandropov on 1:01 am on May 12, 2002
gurillaradio, you call me unintelligent when you don't know me. i have a 148 IQ and a degree in law from moscow state university.

To be honest, I don't care what your IQ and degrees are. The fact is you're a bigot and discriminatory, which, to me, makes you unintelligent. I repeat my question: how can you bang about leftism and equality when you're treating Jews as unequals to your holy might self??

"...as a marxist, i take a marxist stand point on judaism. marx didn't like it, so i don't like it."

This is neither here nor there. I was led to believe that the very crux of Marxism (something I do not follow, btw) was equality. If that is so, then I have little time for Herr Marx.

yuriandropov

12th May 2002, 14:46

i'll say it again. just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you don't think there equal to you.

guerrillaradio

12th May 2002, 14:48

Quote: from yuriandropov on 5:49 pm on May 11, 2002
no one in his right mind can claim to be left wing if he is a zionist...

What about Golda Weir?? She was classed as a Socialist Zionist...

guerrillaradio

12th May 2002, 14:49

Quote: from yuriandropov on 2:46 pm on May 12, 2002
i'll say it again. just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you don't think there equal to you.

Well you are obviously intent on putting your personal prejudices into practice, so, in effect, that's what it comes down to...

yuriandropov

12th May 2002, 14:53

zionism wants a purely jewish state. another comrade said it like comparing hitlers request for an ayrian state. zionism is facism. no one who claims to be marxist can be zionist. marx was atheist so the idea of a religious state would make him sick. marx could see the facist ways of jewish zionism. long live marx!

guerrillaradio

12th May 2002, 14:56

Ok, I'm anti-zionist too. The thing is, despite your amazingly high IQ and your even more enviable law degree, you still seem to unable to distinguish between Judaism and Zionism. I don't know my IQ but I doubt it's as high as 148, and I have no degree (I haven't even taken my GCSEs yet), but I am able to make that distinction quite easily...

yuriandropov

12th May 2002, 15:09

no, its not that i can't distinguish between them. i just don't like either of them. i don't like the teachings of the talmud or the religion of judaism as a whole. and i hate zionism because i see it as a facist movement. and please, don't become sarcastic about me saying my IQ. it wasn't intended to be taken as me boasting about my intelligence. sorry if it came out that way. i was just saying, i'm not unintelligent. just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean i'm unintelligent.

(Edited by yuriandropov at 3:10 pm on May 12, 2002)

saorise

12th May 2002, 15:24

why does Isreal have a right to exist?? They drove the Palestinians from their homes, shops, schools etc into refugee camps and took their land with the help of England and America. The Zionists like to play the religion and race card a lot saying that they won't let what happened them in WW2 happen again- but they dont mind massacreing civilians in Jenin and elsewhere or disciminating against Palastinians. If a French man in 1942 hated Nazi's was he racist? If a Palastinian tries to defend his home is he a terrorist? Isreal is the terrorist

Reuben

12th May 2002, 15:44

Quote: from yuriandropov on 2:53 pm on May 12, 2002
zionism wants a purely jewish state. another comrade said it like comparing hitlers request for an ayrian state. zionism is facism. no one who claims to be marxist can be zionist. marx was atheist so the idea of a religious state would make him sick. marx could see the facist ways of jewish zionism. long live marx!

Actually marx died before zionism was invented. Shows exactly how much you knowHe did disagree with judaism however he did not latch on to the jewish conspiracy theory stuff and traditional anti-semitism (see plight of a stalinist in SvC ) that you latch onto. In fact this was used against him by people such as the anarchists

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 16:11

some people dont seem to understand that one cannot be a religous marxist, its an oximoron, marx was against all religion. secondly one cannot be a zionist and claim to be marxist, because that also contradicts the teachings of marx. zionism is no different than nazism simply because it promotes a one raced state that wishes to expand. and if one is a socialist zionist they are simply nationalist socialists which is another word for the nazi party, leftist zionism is simply fascism with a fancy name

yuriandropov

12th May 2002, 16:17

to reuban, when i said marx could see the ways of jewish zionsim i meant that marx could see judaism was facism. if there was no judaism, there would be no zionism. read 'a world without jews' by marx. to red revolutionary87, i couldn't have said it better myself. being a religious marxist is an oxy-moron. religion teaches facism (remember the 'divine' right of kings) and zionsim is ultimate facism.

Reuben

12th May 2002, 16:24

I agree that being a religious marxist is something of an oxy-moron though of course being a jewish marxist or not , as the term 'jews' refers to a broad ethnic group.

If you feel that all religions are facist then why hav you focused on the jewish religion when the churches have a much longer history of stirring hatred etc.

I Will Deny You

12th May 2002, 16:41

In response to the original post, I am neither a Zionist nor a kid who believes that Israel is nothing more than big bad corporations trying to exploit the Muslim people. There's too much here for me to reply to all of it, so I've just taken a few choice posts from my new best friend.

zionism wants a purely jewish state. another comrade said it like comparing hitlers request for an ayrian state. zionism is facism. no one who claims to be marxist can be zionist. marx was atheist so the idea of a religious state would make him sick. marx could see the facist ways of jewish zionism. long live marx!
It's hard to define Zionism so narrowly, and you should be the last person to try. Some people just want a state that's run by Jews, in which case Khazaria would qualify. (Khazaria had one of the most, if not the most, tolerant governments of its time and even in the history of the world.) Hitler wanted more than an Aryan-run state, he wanted every single person on the planet who wasn't an Aryan to die. Like I already said, some Zionists want nothing more than Khazaria, and there isn't a single worthwhile Zionist who wants to kill anyone who's not a Jew. So Zionism usually isn't fascism. And a Marxist doesn't have to be an Atheist. That's like saying a Marxist can't like pizza unless he did, too. His area of expertise was neither religion nor fast food, but economic theory.

religion teaches facism (remember the 'divine' right of kings) and zionsim is ultimate facism.
You need to learn the difference between religious teachings and interpretations of those teachings. And like I already said, many Zionists aren't fascists at all and there have been many movements that were far more fascist.

Lindsay

Nateddi

12th May 2002, 17:10

God damn, where was I when this thread broke out.

I hate to say this, but I try to stay out from this conflict. I agree with anti-zionists (which I am to a large extent) that Israel needs to get out, however I just don't see it happening. Palestein is doing a terrible job trying to liberate itself, suicide bombings on random civilians needs to be condemned. Why don't the palestinians try to go on a massive strike, or have hundreds of thousands just sit in the middle of a road blocking Israeli tanks. Its called civil disobedience, it worked in the US for the African Americans, it can work for the Palestinians as well. Suicide bombings just make their whole cause look terrible. Despite the fact that I want a Palestinian state, my current anger isn't at the Israeli government, however it is rather to the Palestinian "liberators" and their tactics.

I usually don't comment on these threads because I don't support Zionism, however I don't side with the Palestinians either for their support of suicide bombers. I was watchign the A20 rally for Palestine, I liked it for the most part, but when people start chanting "Martyrs not murderers" that made me sick.

yuriandropov

12th May 2002, 17:20

marxism isn't just an economic thoery, it is a political theory. one of its main points is, religion exploits the working class, so therefore, its bad. you can be a religious socialist, but not a religious marxist. i don't just single out judaism as a religion, i don't like all religions but i think judaism is the worst of the main religions, followed by christianity. i don't mind islam but there are still parts of it that are ridiculous. BTW even if zionism does just want a state run by jews. why the fuck do they want that. don't they trust other 'inferior religions'. if you want a state run by jews you've got two. 'israel' and USA.

angry

12th May 2002, 17:29

I support palestine for ariel sharon is insane, if he is after the "terrorists" then why is he preforming some kind of genocide??
Why is he ordering his soldiers to kill innocent people..?
To be honest I didn´t expect this from you man in the red suit, I support palestine for I have moral codes!

Power to the powerless!

I Will Deny You

12th May 2002, 17:40

BTW even if zionism does just want a state run by jews. why the fuck do they want that. don't they trust other 'inferior religions'.
In short, they don't trust other religions. They don't call other religions "inferior", however. Do you really think that Zionism would be so popular if everyone had always just let the Jews have the same rights as the members of the "state religion"? Nowadays there is a lot less religious discrimination, which is why I think that even the Khazarian Zionism theories are outdated, but the Jews have been discriminated against for thousands of years. Would you trust other groups if you were living in France 100 years ago and you were a member of a religion that had been enslaved and massacred by almost everyone else? Khazarian Zionism was not a case of "we're superior", but it was a result of the general feeling that "we deserve just as many rights as the Christians/Muslims/Romans/Greeks/Egyptians/Babylonians/etc."

if you want a state run by jews you've got two. 'israel' and USA.
Once again, this is bullshit. Culturally, this is untrue and religiously, this could not be farther from the truth.

yuriandropov

12th May 2002, 17:55

sigh. i don't know if any of you can speak russian or not but if you can, let me know. as i'm having a hard job getting my point across in english. i've always though i was fluent in english but after joining this board, i'm not so sure. how can you say israel isn't a culterally and religiously jewish state? the star of david is the fucking flag! as i have said before, jews in USA hold a lot of power, people who hold power usually make the descisions.

I Will Deny You

12th May 2002, 18:07

Quote: from yuriandropov on 12:55 pm on May 12, 2002
how can you say israel isn't a culterally and religiously jewish state? the star of david is the fucking flag!I was talking about America.

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 19:30

i dont want to get into this jews own power discussion because im sort of split, maybe they do but the ones that do are not actual jews, they are people who realized that jews were treated as special after ww2 and were placed at a higher and sympathetic place(this is no fault of the jews, it is the fault of nazi germany and then the western powers), these people claim to be jewish to get the benifits that come with it.

i however would liek to get back to the marx topic, one actualy cannot be marxist and religious simply because religion glorifies a monarch(god) and yes god is a monarch, religion tells people that god is the ultimate being and they should all bow down to him, and that in a marxist view is wrong.

Reuben

12th May 2002, 19:47

Well I havent noticed being treated better because I am a jew but I have had several beeting and violent threats from anti-semites. A freind even had his arm broken

kingbee

12th May 2002, 20:29

i dunno if this point has been made or not cos i havent read all the posts, but i support palestine because: israel is an american pawn
why did a country have to be made at the expense of another?
palestinians were moved out of their homes to make way for jewish immigrants
israel constantly uproots palestinians in their region to make room for israelis
why does a religion have to have a homeland?

people say that "finally, after hundereds of years, the jews got their homeland". but thats a part of history- the ottoman empire- it took over palestine during the crusades i believe. why should you go back a thousand years to get a homeland? thats like saying the us shoud give back its west, as 200 years ago, it was part of mexico.
maybe suicide bombings are horrific and kill innocent civilians, but the israeli tactics are much the same (horrific, killing innocent people i mean). israel is basically as bad, if not worse, than the suicide bombers, but just because they have big guns and are a nation, thats ok. well it shouldnt be. what is the difference between terrorism and state terrorism?

i am not defending suicide bombing at all, nor am i attacking jews in general. i am not a racist.

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 20:38

im sorry to hear that, but in the political community people feel sympathy for you if your jewish, as they should, but some people abuse that.

Reuben

12th May 2002, 20:55

Israeli soldiers are 100 times worse than the suicide bombers bgiven a) all the options available to them B) the nature of their objectives

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 21:09

ya, i mean i saw video footage of them breaking the bones of a youth intifada, this was the defense ministers idea. they had him down on the ground and were beating him with rocks, how sick is that!?!

Reuben

12th May 2002, 21:15

"break their bones" was originally the slogan of 'peace lover' rabin, when he was aarmy general

RedRevolutionary87

12th May 2002, 21:29

well i was horrified by what i saw, a 16 year old boy getting his bones crushed by 4 soilders, and there wasnt a tear on his face, how far must people be pushed by others to do such things, i mean i dotn think a bomb could ever bring about the same pain as this, and we have to stop and think, y would someone go as far as taking theyre own lives, aperantly they are fed up, they have had enough and are ready to die for change, they have nothing to lose. we should be trying to prevent other from driving people to these measures, not trying to kill the people who are doing it, we are only fanning the flames

red senator

12th May 2002, 22:46

ok, i haven't read the whole thread, so I hope someone else has already jumped MITRS ass making the same points i am about to:

1. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter.
2. Suicide bombers exist because palestine does not have a military.
3. "its ok to bomb military bases but not civilians" Well, 1. they can't get into military bases, and 2. it scares the shit out of more people if you kill civilians.

LeonardoDaVinci

12th May 2002, 23:36

It is just so typical of all zionists to dismiss any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic. Is it just me or does it seem that they have worn out that term? Stop killing innocent palestinian civilians, oh you're anti-semitic. Stop building illegal settlements on palestinian land, oh you're anti-semitic, stop humilating the palestinian people. Oh you're definitely anti-semtic.

I hate louis farakhan, his followers and their whole political ideology. Does that make mean that I think all "niggers" are trouble makers who don't deserve their freedom and should all be confined to the cotton fields. I don't think so! When a wrong is committed, it doesn't really matter whether the opressor was once a victim. It shouldn't automatically qualify him for a green card to oppress others.

I am supporting the palestinian people because using the historical evidence available to me I can determine that they have been the victims in this struggle. Of course I believe that israelis deserve to live in peace and security, but they simply cannot "terrorise" the palestinian people as they have done over the past 3 decades and expect to live in peace.

Nateddi

12th May 2002, 23:55

it scares the shit out of more people if you kill civilians.

That is just sick.

I Will Deny You

13th May 2002, 00:00

Quote: from Reuben on 2:47 pm on May 12, 2002
Well I havent noticed being treated better because I am a jew but I have had several beeting and violent threats from anti-semites. A freind even had his arm broken
Then take some time off from controlling the weather and drinking the blood of goy babies to waltz around and ask for kosher caviar at wholesale prices.

RedRevolutionary87

13th May 2002, 00:56

oh come on with the sarcasm iwdy you cant possibly completely dismiss that political jews have been treated special, maybe not on a personal level, but in the global community if one is a jewish politition you are much better off, this isnt the fault of the jewish people, i cannot stress that enough. but if you are in politics and claim to be jewish you have alot more leway, there is no way to deny that

Derar

13th May 2002, 00:58

That's true..

guerrillaradio

13th May 2002, 14:27

Hmmm....fuck all Jewish conspiracy theories. Red and Derar, you have no idea whatsoever. Just shut up and concentrate on the matter in hand rather than taking it out on Judaism.

I don't agree with suicide bombers at all. What can they hope to gain by blowing themselves up along with 15 civillians?? It's not about politics, it's more a religious thing. Many fundamental Muslims (of which there are many in Palestine) believe that Mohammad and Allah call them to kill themselves in the act of killing their enemy (quite how civillians are their enemy is beyond me, but that's irrelevant). They are revered by their families and friends as a hero (something which is very elusive to many young men with six brothers and five sisters), and get a proper funeral. The whole culture embraces suicide bombers. It's disgusting if you ask me...

Reuben

13th May 2002, 16:01

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 12:00 am on May 13, 2002

Quote: from Reuben on 2:47 pm on May 12, 2002
Well I havent noticed being treated better because I am a jew but I have had several beeting and violent threats from anti-semites. A freind even had his arm broken
Then take some time off from controlling the weather and drinking the blood of goy babies to waltz around and ask for kosher caviar at wholesale prices.

lol

but have their not been examples also of the politiclal community treating people worse because they are jewish. For ecample at the time of mcarthyism when jews were associated with communism.

Reuben

13th May 2002, 16:22

Quote: from LeonardoDaVinci on 11:36 pm on May 12, 2002
It is just so typical of all zionists to dismiss any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic. Is it just me or does it seem that they have worn out that term? Stop killing innocent palestinian civilians, oh you're anti-semitic. Stop building illegal settlements on palestinian land, oh you're anti-semitic, stop humilating the palestinian people. Oh you're definitely anti-semtic.

I hate louis farakhan, his followers and their whole political ideology. Does that make mean that I think all "niggers" are trouble makers who don't deserve their freedom and should all be confined to the cotton fields. I don't think so! When a wrong is committed, it doesn't really matter whether the opressor was once a victim. It shouldn't automatically qualify him for a green card to oppress others.

I am supporting the palestinian people because using the historical evidence available to me I can determine that they have been the victims in this struggle. Of course I believe that israelis deserve to live in peace and security, but they simply cannot "terrorise" the palestinian people as they have done over the past 3 decades and expect to live in peace.

I agree woth you completely. Just to check when you said 'it is typical of zionists to dismiss criticism of israel as anti-semitism, was this in reference to what has been said or was it a general point?

I am not accusing you of anything comrade but as far as I know, there are no zionists on this thread.

It really pisses me off as a jew, when zionists equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism. If anything it strengthens the fascist case as it makes their anti-semitism seem more legitimate if it is conflated with anti-zionism.

Derar

13th May 2002, 18:11

Guerillaradio , u r fucking disgusting , and u make me sick .......
and u shut the fuck up ......... coz if u call the families and brothers of the martyrs that give up their lives to liberate their country disgusting , then u r one fucking sick person ......

u dont really know what;s going on there , u sit ur on ur ass behind ur computer typing shit , while others give up their lives to free their country ...

instead of accusing the suicide bombers , go talk shit about the israeli army that's been non-stop assasinating palestinian leaders , killing children and women , and destroying houses , ambulances , schools and hospitals .

LeonardoDaVinci

13th May 2002, 19:15

Dear Reuben, I am just making a general point. Recently, as you might be aware, there were a lot of intellectuals all over europe who've been accused of being anti-semitic for voicing there concern over the plight of the plaestinian people. It has been used as a counter-offensive for any criticism of Israel.

Reuben

13th May 2002, 19:16

Yeah I agree.

Reuben

13th May 2002, 19:18

My parents used to get reffered to as 'self haters' its pretty ridiculous the wasy anti-sionists are labelled anti-semites

Blasphemy

13th May 2002, 19:33

derar, do you honestly belive that massacaring dozens of innocent israeil civilians promotes the palestinians' goal for a homeland in any way. it does the complete opposite - with every suicide bomber, less and less people support a palestinian state.

how can you go about justifying the killing of israeli civilians, while condemning the killing of palestinian civilians? don't you think it's a little hypocritical on your part?

RedRevolutionary87

13th May 2002, 21:25

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 6:56 pm on May 12, 2002
oh come on with the sarcasm iwdy you cant possibly completely dismiss that political jews have been treated special, maybe not on a personal level, but in the global community if one is a jewish politition you are much better off, this isnt the fault of the jewish people, i cannot stress that enough. but if you are in politics and claim to be jewish you have alot more leway, there is no way to deny that

notice how i said this is no fault of the jews, notice how ive said on many other ocations that the jews should be treated better and with sympathy, but some people are abusing it, thats the fucking point im making dotn be a blind fool and automaticly suggest im anty semitic open your fucking eyes, i am against all religion, so i i dont care about muslims or jews or christians, i care about the peple behind the religion, too me they are all the same, but some are being abused, so please i would apreciate if you would not so offhandedly dismiss me as an anti semite, i have jewish roots, and im also sympathetic to the jewish people, but i will not accept anyone violating others, no matter how much they suffered.

Derar

13th May 2002, 22:06

Quote: from Blasphemy on 11:33 pm on May 13, 2002
derar, do you honestly belive that massacaring dozens of innocent israeil civilians promotes the palestinians' goal for a homeland in any way. it does the complete opposite - with every suicide bomber, less and less people support a palestinian state.

how can you go about justifying the killing of israeli civilians, while condemning the killing of palestinian civilians? don't you think it's a little hypocritical on your part?

Ok , i dont fully support the suicide bombings , but tell me , what can these opressed ( teenagers ) do instead ...... can they attack military targets , NO , coz they r gonna get killed with no benefit , can they ask help from onother country in the world ? NO , becoz the US and israel r now ruling the world , didnt u see what happend the jenin fact finding mission !!!

i dont really support the suicide attacks on the israeli civilians , but i do fully support the suicide attacks on the settlers , the fundamentalist zionists , and the israeli soldiers !

Reuben

13th May 2002, 22:12

adult settlers are legitimate targets. They choose to live a life which is to the extreme detriment of the palestinians around the, tapping into the water supplies so that they can have swimming pools and in some dumping their sewaqge into the palestinian rivers

LeonardoDaVinci

13th May 2002, 23:10

Yeah, I agree with you Rueben. Adult settlers are legitimate targets, and I have no sympathy for any of them. They are selfish extremists who have no regard for the palestinians and their plight; nor do they have any regard for their families by endangering them with their racist and colonial ambitions.

red senator

13th May 2002, 23:22

Quote: from Nateddi on 11:55 pm on May 12, 2002

it scares the shit out of more people if you kill civilians.

That is just sick.

Yeah it is. I wasn't trying to advocate it, I was just trying to show the reason for it.

I Will Deny You

14th May 2002, 03:48

Quote: from Derar on 1:11 pm on May 13, 2002
Guerillaradio , u r fucking disgusting , and u make me sick .......
and u shut the fuck up ......... coz if u call the families and brothers of the martyrs that give up their lives to liberate their country disgusting , then u r one fucking sick person ......

u dont really know what;s going on there , u sit ur on ur ass behind ur computer typing shit , while others give up their lives to free their country ...

instead of accusing the suicide bombers , go talk shit about the israeli army that's been non-stop assasinating palestinian leaders , killing children and women , and destroying houses , ambulances , schools and hospitals .

[hr]

Quote: from Reuben on 5:12 pm on May 13, 2002
adult settlers are legitimate targets. They choose to live a life which is to the extreme detriment of the palestinians around the, tapping into the water supplies so that they can have swimming pools and in some dumping their sewaqge into the palestinian rivers

[hr]

I agree with Reuben. Adult settlers are legitimate targets. Illegally invading a foreign country with thousands of soldiers smells like a military operation to me. And this operation smells even worse than New Jersey.

However, suicide bombings accomplish nothing . . . they're actually counter-productive. When's the last time you heard of a "Shrapnel for Peace" deal? The less bombings there are, the better the Palestinians will look in comparison to the Israeli army. Suicide bombings' purpose is not to free Palestine, because they only delay that. Their purpose is to strike blindly at scapegoats for their problems. Suicide bombers are not heroes. Palestinian (and Israeli) peace activists are.

Lindsay

man in the red suit

14th May 2002, 03:54

YES, FUCK THE SUICIDE BOMBERS!!! THEY ARE A DISGRACE TO THE PALESTINIAN NATION!

RedRevolutionary87

14th May 2002, 04:14

must you always scream your little slogans, we dont need it, have you ever been told you are obnoxious? cuz you are.

id have to say its not that easy iwdy, the palestinians are a proud people, they dont want to cowar behind the west, they want to wim their freedom, the dont want to be shown that they can easly be controlled by amerikkka, this is clearly shown with the intifada movement, of women and youth throwing stones ont he israelli soilders and tanks, it shows that they are not afraid and will die for theyre freedom.

man in the red suit

14th May 2002, 04:20

I dont care what u think. if u think im obnoxious, fuck u, I find u obnoxious u prick. FUCK SUICIDE BOMBERS!!!

RedRevolutionary87

14th May 2002, 04:32

ok buddy have i ever raised my voice at you? no, have i ever insulted you, no ive only insulted your arguments, dont call me a prick, i dont apreciate that. suicide bomber you refer them too, i call them teenagers, who probably have mothers, fathers, and siblings killed by the israellies, they are people against the wall, and they have no other way out. think before you speak my friend, it might help you. fuck suicide bombers...heheh i dont think youd be saying that if some came and killed your mother and father in front of you, if you say your best friends get cut in half with a machine gun, as i said, just think before you speak, someone took theyre own life, people dot just do that, they are driven to it.

just think

Blasphemy

14th May 2002, 07:12

Quote: from Derar on 12:06 am on May 14, 2002

Quote: from Blasphemy on 11:33 pm on May 13, 2002
derar, do you honestly belive that massacaring dozens of innocent israeil civilians promotes the palestinians' goal for a homeland in any way. it does the complete opposite - with every suicide bomber, less and less people support a palestinian state.

how can you go about justifying the killing of israeli civilians, while condemning the killing of palestinian civilians? don't you think it's a little hypocritical on your part?

Ok , i dont fully support the suicide bombings , but tell me , what can these opressed ( teenagers ) do instead ...... can they attack military targets , NO , coz they r gonna get killed with no benefit , can they ask help from onother country in the world ? NO , becoz the US and israel r now ruling the world , didnt u see what happend the jenin fact finding mission !!!

i dont really support the suicide attacks on the israeli civilians , but i do fully support the suicide attacks on the settlers , the fundamentalist zionists , and the israeli soldiers !

the palestinians MUST fight the occupation. they are opressed by the israeli government, their basic liberties are denied from them and illegal settlers perpetuate the israeli occupation.
but there is a way to fight the occupation. strapping an expolsive belt to your body and blowing yourself up in the middle of Tel Aviv does not contribute to the palestinians' struggle. the fact that the occupation is immoral, does not justify immoral counter-actions.
fight the settlers, but do not enter their homes and savagely murder their babies and children. fight the soldiers, but do not kidnap them and torture them to death. fight the government's policy but don't shoot elected public officials dead.
there are moral actions that can be taken, and immoral ones. right now, the palestinians are walking along the immoral path. the israelis are doing the same.

guerrillaradio

14th May 2002, 10:12

Derar - you are the one who's disgusting, not me. Suicide bombers are not "martyrs", they make the choice to kill themselves, and they gain nothing. I refer you back to my last post on this thread to explain the real reasoning behind suicide bombers, as I doubt you read it before resorting to insults and faceless arguments. Nuff said.

I dislike the whole attitude behind "legitimate targets", as, like IWDY and Blasphemy have said, it is counter-productive. If they really wanted peace, they would not be blowing themselves up. Once again, this shows how politics is not the main agenda here.

Derar

14th May 2002, 10:36

havent u read history ........ and see how many peace truces have been signed between the israeli and palestinians , and how everytime it was boken by the israeli army !
Now 55 years have pasted of useless fake peace deals ...... Now it's the time for real action ......

have anyone cared about palestine as much as they do know after the suicide bombings started ? I dont think so.

Blasphemy

14th May 2002, 14:27

the oslo accords were broken by both sides, but it wasn't serious. it's not like the palestinians are peace-seeking people who will do everything in order to reach an agreement. the conflict has corrupted both the israeli and the palestinian society.
the palestinians savagely slaughter those who are suspected of cooperating with israel, and in israel those who dare to speak up against the occupation are quickly silented by the government.

anti machine

15th May 2002, 00:14

I dont know how anyone can take sides with Israel in this situation. It is not a question of race, it is a question of rights. Palestine's land was stolen away from them, thanks to the U.S., and they are doing everything possible to get it back. I dont agree with the means of doing so, but their fight is a just one.

man in the red suit

15th May 2002, 00:35

redrevolutionary,
I have seen that my words towards you are immature and jouvenile of me and for this I apologize. You are not a prick. Nevertheless, I still believe that suicide bombers are disgusting cowards and you will not convince me otherwise. There is no excuse for killing innocent civilians just because you have a biff against Israelis. I also believe that Palestinians should be allowed to have their land. It is because of you people that I changed my mind. However it is still sick for suicide bombers to kill civilians. I have no condolance for it and it is not laudable in any way. I apologize once again for calling you a prick however I was insulted by your previous comments. Please do not condone suicide bombing!

RedRevolutionary87

15th May 2002, 00:48

ok well i accept your apology, and i see some hope in you lol. im against suicide bombings too, but the thing is they havent any other choice. civiliean casualties are always wrong, but if all your familly was killed by the army of a certain country, and you were left with absolutely nothing, i think you would take the same actions too. im not saying its right, im saying its all they can do, its the strugle of a dying fish, the last twich of a dyign man....it is whats left in the hopes of palestine, they have been pushed to this, terrorrism is wrong, but one should look and blame those who caused it, which isnt nesesaraly those who executed it.

man in the red suit

15th May 2002, 00:54

but is it really the last thing they can do? I suppose it is but couldn't they go and attack military targets? come on, they are fair game, Civilians are not. I also heard that it was against their religion to kill civilians. This doesn't seem right. I do not think that suicide bombers are heroes, I think they are sick. There are other opportunities. They can fight. Revolution, just like Che. No matter how the great the oppressor, there is always a way to liberation without killing innocents.

RedRevolutionary87

15th May 2002, 01:03

the problem is it would all be well and fair if israel would let them have a standing army, i mean invading israel is liek invading the usa, its almost imposible, and remember these are 14-17yearolds they are angry and confused, theyre mothers were raped and shot, theyre brothers were executed, theyre fathers humiliated and killed, thats alot of anger. let me put it this way, since your jewish i think you can find this topic hit a little closer to home(i mean no offense by this). ok you are a jewish youth in europe 1942, and you come n cantact with a german pro nazi civilian...would you not want to slit his throat? i mean his government that he supports killed your mother and father, you saw you baby brother thrown in a gas chamber, you saw your mother raped...would you not kill him? i kno i would have a real urge to do so..

man in the red suit

15th May 2002, 02:12

slitting throats is one think, bombing is another. If someone were raping and killing my family members, I'd be mad. I would slit the thraot of someone who is responsible but I wouldn't bomb some place where the lives of the innocent are at risk. I don't care if a few bombers are young and stupid, that is no excuse, I am the same age but I still know the difference between right and wrong. It may be hard to believe but I wouldn't kill others in an attempt for revenge on my family. You are also overreacting. Israelis don't go killing and raping palestinian families. The palestinians do it to themselves. They are getting fucked over by I combination of their own people and the U.N not the Israelis. The American media simply presents the one-minded side of the Palestinians, showing the innocents who are killed on ACCIDENT. The Israelis are not on a Palestinian seek and destroy mission. The Israelis are trying to seek out the bombers and kill innocents on accident. The bombers purposely go out in th eopen where there are large amounts of innocent people present so that they can get hurt. The bombers are not bombing because of their families they are bombing because they want to rid the land of the Jews. If you ask me, there is more fascism on Israel's part.

man in the red suit

15th May 2002, 02:22

slitting throats is one thing, bombing is another. If my family was killed I'd want revenge but not at the risk of innocents' lives. I don't care if a few of the bombers are youg and stupid, that is no excuse. I am young and stupid as well but I still have a consciounce. Even I know what is right and wrong. These people don't bomb because they are lamenting for their families, they are bombing because they want to rid the land of jews just like hitler. There is more fascism on Palestine's part.
It is ignorant to think that Israel hunts down and kills innocent Palestinians. It is because of the American media that we seem to think this. The American media tries to convince us that Israel is the big bad monster coming to get the Pals yet they are not. They are simply focused on for their accidents. When ever they accidently kill innocents while trying to hunt down the bombers they are blamed for it. The suicide bombers purposely go out and kill innocents because they want to make people afraid not because they have nothing left to fight for. If they wanted to fight honorabley they could. But no, instead they fight dirty!

Raztro

15th May 2002, 02:36

Quote: from man in the red suit on 2:22 am on May 15, 2002
slitting throats is one thing, bombing is another. If my family was killed I'd want revenge but not at the risk of innocents' lives. I don't care if a few of the bombers are youg and stupid, that is no excuse. I am young and stupid as well but I still have a consciounce. Even I know what is right and wrong. These people don't bomb because they are lamenting for their families, they are bombing because they want to rid the land of jews just like hitler. There is more fascism on Palestine's part.
It is ignorant to think that Israel hunts down and kills innocent Palestinians. It is because of the American media that we seem to think this. The American media tries to convince us that Israel is the big bad monster coming to get the Pals yet they are not. They are simply focused on for their accidents. When ever they accidently kill innocents while trying to hunt down the bombers they are blamed for it. The suicide bombers purposely go out and kill innocents because they want to make people afraid not because they have nothing left to fight for. If they wanted to fight honorabley they could. But no, instead they fight dirty!

I don't know but that sounded kind of biased...

RedRevolutionary87

15th May 2002, 02:47

ok right now my mind is telling me not to respond to such ignorance...but i will, i still believe you can be educated. these kids arent killing themselves kuz they are stupid, i mean sure everyone knows right and wrong, but that line changes when put into these conditions, and those civilians arent all inocent because most of them believe that israel should completely get rid of all palestinians.

next let me rephrase my quesion, if you were a teen in 1942 and all your familly was killed by the nazis, and you saw most of them die, would you go into berlin strap a bomb to yourself and blow yourself up? just a reminder that at the time almost all the people supported the nazis.

also if you havent noticed it is palestine that is being villianised not israel....i mean come on man, at least do some research.

Blasphemy

15th May 2002, 07:22

Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 2:48 am on May 15, 2002
ok well i accept your apology, and i see some hope in you lol. im against suicide bombings too, but the thing is they havent any other choice. civiliean casualties are always wrong, but if all your familly was killed by the army of a certain country, and you were left with absolutely nothing, i think you would take the same actions too. im not saying its right, im saying its all they can do, its the strugle of a dying fish, the last twich of a dyign man....it is whats left in the hopes of palestine, they have been pushed to this, terrorrism is wrong, but one should look and blame those who caused it, which isnt nesesaraly those who executed it.

a suicide bomber blows himself up in the middle of a restaurant in tel aviv. in the restaurant, a familiy of 6 celebrates the father's birthday. the suicide bomber kills 5 members of that family - 2 parents, 1 child aged 5, 1 aged 7, and one aged 15. only one child is left. he is 18 years of age. his parents have been killed together with his 3 brothers. if he goes and kills innocent palestinians, is that okay because his family is dead? is it okay for him to murder innocent people, or is that right reserved only to the palestinians?